What went wrong? No seriously, what is it about Super that is just so infuriating? Yes...

What went wrong? No seriously, what is it about Super that is just so infuriating? Yes, DBZ was dumb but it relished in its over the top chaos and had its own unique charm to it that people still love it and enjoy it to this day. What is it that Super lacks and why does it just make people cringe?

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Honestly your image alone should be enough. It looks like a goddamn chinese knock-off. Dragonball's artstyle has only gotten worse through the years and Super is the peak of shit visuals.

You like DBZ because you watched it as a kid. You were able to overlook the flaws and just enjoy it, so now you look back on it fondly because it is a symbol of childhood pleasure. Whereas you watch Super as an adult and notice all the flaws, and they are exaggerated compared to your rose-tinted memories of enjoying DBZ as a child.

Pretty much this. Take a look at this visual and it's blatantly obvious that Toriyama stopped giving a shit years ago. Super is just more Dragon Ball purely for the sake of more Dragon Ball since it's guaranteed to make money.

Super is bad! Z is bad too but MUH CHILDHOOD XD: The Thread

At least the art and animation was good.

Why the fuck did Toriyama complain about DBE when this shit it's at its level? Since when brain dead Goku with rainbow transformations is better than Holywood Goku?

it's just you user.

>At l-least the other shit w-was less smelly XD

The city of DBcucks

Is it safe to like GT now?

Yes, it's been retroactively approved

You must have some sort of brain damage.

In a year you'll all be liking Super when the next DB series comes out.

Bullshit. Even as a child, me and everyone else were aware of Dragon Ball's flaws. We would all constantly joke about how it took 50 episodes for shit to actually happen along with the rest of the power level nonsense. What Z had over Super is one obvious thing: Personality.

You see, DBZ and Toriyama were incredibly self aware about how nonsensically over the top they were and they just relished in it. Throughout the majority of the series you could tell that Toriyama was just having a blast telling such an over the top action story.

Super on the other hand is just blatantly shoehorned and forced when Toriyama has long since moved on from Dragon Ball and would rather work on something else, but he can't since Dragon Ball is the only thing he can make that'll sell. Toriyama has lost all his passion and interest in Dragon Ball, so of course it'll just come off as dull, shoehorned, and uninspired.

Toriyama has lost all his passion as an artist and has become an empty hollow shell of his former self, and Super is a reflection of his current state: a man who stopped giving a shit and only cares about making his next paycheck. It's actually quite sad.

Super is fun in a lot of ways but it's egregiously derivative. Remember Frieza? Remember Future Trunks? Most character moments hit similar Greatest Hits notes.

The fact so much of its time has been spent on underdelivering tournaments doesn't help either, especially when the multiple universes reveal in BoG at one point seemed promising and expansive.
Dragon Ball is a legitimately good manga, despite Toriyama's issues with plotting and character juggling. Toyotaro isn't bad but there's really no comparison.

user, are you stupid? How much time do you think it takes to make an anime?

Z was some very similar shit, you were just younger or something.

The only good DB part is DB.

>Super is fun in a lot of ways
Good joke, the only good and funny episode was Pan's.

>Winnie the Pooh is a dragon ball villain

>You don't like my generic shonenshit? d-do you have brain damage or something XD

The absolute state of DBcucks


It is shonenshit, doesn't mean it's not entertaining.
Keep throwing that cuck word around though, maybe the meaning will change.

>W-well you're right, it's shit b-but I like shit XD

I'm glad you finally accepted it

>What is it that Super lacks
A soul.
>and why does it just make people cringe
The fact that the franchise has been milked into oblivion. It should have died a long time ago but people didn't learn from GT.

Meaning that it's not deep, but manages to be entertaining in other ways.
Not everything has to be some san-gatsu like show to entertain.

Do you have a stutter in real life as well?

At least with GT the writers were actually trying to do something interesting. With Super, nobody's even trying.

Toei is cashing in and the guy behind it is now rich and no longer the coked up geniis mangaka manwhore who'd get into drunken brawls and bang schoolgirls and cakes three at a time.

He's a beaten down older man who's been dragged out of happy retirement to work on/repair toei's bullshit.

He's also the punching back and man who'll be responsible for all of the stupid bullshit that goes on. with this clusterfuck of a series.
The only thing that he actually brought to the table was a wafer thin outline that is more then likely bullshit that toei claims exists and the S cells thing that is actually once you think about it a neat way to bring back the REAL saiyajins without them all being bullshit super powerful or going SSJ with only tingles and dyke rage and being called mean things.

Now onto the problems

Substandard art
Shit tier battle choreography
Terrible writing
Complete misunderstanding of why DB(Actually DBZ)became a phenomenon
An actual distaste for the IP
No ability to create decent villians stories or battles
Marketers in suits and VAs throwing their weight around were steering the project.
Not a coked up prime toriyama that was between bar fights and whores and having to listen to at the time(in some cases if you ignore the buu and teen gohan saga)shitter editors.
Oh and goku is voiced by an octaganarian. Even the people from back then were slightly offput by goku's still childish voice when they first heard it.
She can kill it and SHOULD have been Gohan's voice. But her as adult Goku? Someone should have been fired.
This is also the Goku, then Saiyajin, then whatever the producers think the can get the idiot children to buy series.

For gods, sake. SSJB exists as a tie in for TORIKO!

Z, especially in America, became big over how hardcore it was. Super is even less serious than Dragon Ball; it has no idea on how to manage drama. Its tone is light despite focusing on a life or death battle royale effecting the fate of multiple universe and unlike with Dragon Ball its jokes, used at the most inappropriate of times, are unfunny. Meanwhile Goku, the MC of the show, has become unlikable.

I'm okay with Super.

GT was terrible and worse than Super so they clearly didn't try hard enough.

Nothing went wrong. I'm okay with it.

I mean, its a hell of a lot better than the usual garbage SoL and CGDCT every season. Feels like once the shounen dries up, I'm just going to go back to playing video games and grind FGO.

Yes. GT is bad.
But is SUPERIOR to Super.
That is the bad thing.
A handful of well done battles(no that kefla thing or any UI thing isn't it)using a prettied up Z style does not make up for how overwhelmingly bad it's all been.
The hand full of things and tiny speck of potential it had was SQUANDERED in favor of shiling nonsense.

Super takes all of Z's flaws and amplifies them, which is why you find Z easier to stomach despite having similar issues. Power level inconsistency, transformations, tone. All of these things existed in Z, but got much worse in Super.

That said, Super is still fun to watch.

This is a true crossboarder. Ive seen that term thrown around so much here but this is the first time in a while ive seem a post that deems it appropriate

>But is SUPERIOR to Super.
Nope, keep trying Pedro

modern toei just sucks

>You like DBZ because you watched it as a kid.
I watched alot of things as a kid

I can still go back to dbz and have fun

The only thing I truly hate is how cheap the fights feel. There are just some uber lazy ones where it's nothing but fast moving and lens flare explosions that annoy the fuck out of me. I'm not saying all of DBZ was great, but it was a series that pioneered fighting action, and yet so many of its siblings outdo it in this day and age.

It began by rehashing two story arcs we had already seen without really contributing anything extra.

It has, at times, been plagued by truly awful animation with well animated episodes being few and far between.

The Universe 6 arc was fairly decent, it kept things simple and potentially introduced some new storylines.

Black/Zamasu arc was really enjoyable with it's dark future narrative and giving us future trunks back, but really really fucked up with the asspulls and weird shit at the end.

Universal Tournament arc......... fucking amazing idea, but it was far too ambitious and as a result the execution has been abysmal and it failed to live up to expectations.

I'd have loved to see more interaction between the other universes, rather than almost everything from u7's perspective. Lots of fights felt rushed, and so much has clearly been pulled straight out of someone's ass without a second thought as to how it tarnishes the integrity of the series overall. So Jiren is now super arrogant and very vulnerable, despite the last year building him up to be this supremely noble superhero type figure.

But at least they'll kept Mexico happy with the last couple of eps. All hail Goku Blanco

super making me nostiglic for GT

fuck you, super

GT didn't diminish Z with awful retcons. Zamasu, regarded as the least smelly shit in a toilet bowl of shit, was a kick in the balls to anyone who likes Future Trunks.

>You like DBZ because you watched it as a kid
I watched DBZ in waiting for BoG to come out, DBZ isn't nearly bad as Super. Stop using "nostalgia" as a reason why Super is so shit, it's still terrible in comparison.

>Z was some very similar shit

thanks to super, the good points of Z are more evident

Gotta disagree, GT is definitely worse.
It's 100% forgettable, soulless garbage. Nothing lingers. Not a single line of dialogue left an impact, not a trace of characterization comes to mind. I can't even recall the names of all 7 of those stupid dragons in the final arc. All that remains are basically the stupidest transformations and concepts they introduced.

In contrast, even if it's largely unimpressive in several ways, I can say that DBS has characters and moments that'll stick to me. I could go in deeper but that alone makes it better in my honest opinion.

GT was riding the creative train from Z

after 20 years, everyone has lost their spark

>GT was terrible and worse than Super

>Stop using "nostalgia" as a reason why Super is so shit

I'm not, I'm pointing out that DBZ was also shit and you changed, not anime

>I mean, its a hell of a lot better than the usual garbage SoL and CGDCT every season.
no. it's not

Zamasu, the gods of destruction, specially Beerus, are great user.

The manga does everything so much better...

but he went crazy with the power scale... it's all about goku and vegeta now...

>shonentards discussing about which shit smells better

Man I love this place

>It's 100% forgettable, soulless garbage.
fuck you



No blood

You're right. It did have a good OP. So, what parts of the anime really moved you, user?

Zamasu was without a doubt the worst and dumbest canon boss DB has ever had.
The GoD are good as a concept. Nothing more.
Beerus is outright MOGGED by Champa as well.

>posted smug image from shonenshit

sasuga, user-kun


what's the problem with zamasu...

my problem with this arc is about plotholes due to time travel.

>You like DBZ because you watched it as a kid. You were able to overlook the flaws and just enjoy it, so now you look back on it fondly because it is a symbol of childhood pleasure
You're literally describing childhood nostalgia, retard.

let me tell you your head canon didnt happen and you make a shitposting thread everyday filled with memes and over hype that you hate every little thing thats not a 100/100 episode

The character designs and transformations could be a lot better. Jiren and Toppo's destruction designs are pretty good though

It's still better then Super user.
That's saying something.

The fights were shit, a lot of the ideas behind it are bad and the villians were mostly shit.
But it was a better overall package.

That's embarassing.
SSJ4 is still considered more canon and is more well liked then technicolor hair saiyajins.

that looks pretty cool

what parts of db or z moved you?

Don't mind him, he's jsut some retarded tryhard who doesn't know how to troll

They truly were dragon Ball super

>Jiren and Toppo's destruction designs are pretty good though
>Generic muscle and Toppo: Edge mode
Actually the worst type of Dragon Ball design.

He's poorly conceived
His reasons for doing everything managed to be illogical, stupid, and beyond fucking generic.
He exists as a way to handwaive the retardation of yet ANOTHER granny goku voiced evil goku.
The entire fucking story was idiot.

The CONCEPT and design of the character was better then the execution. The fact that black exists made the character outright shit and make no fucking sense what so ever.

I would have rather seen him get power from the demons and have been a former kai who was cast down for killing and destroying life and leading to the destruction of worlds rather then him being some edgy twink.
His wishes with and use of the super dragon balls STILL DOESNT MAKE ANY GODDAMNED SENSE

The entire idea is just a big goddamned waste of everyon'es time and that arc is the worst canon arc in DB history. YES IT BEATS OUT TEEN GOHAN!

most normies are totally down with super though. The people cringing are shitposters on Cred Forums

Your argument for it being better is that "it's better". I'm not convinced. You didn't address anything I said at all or provide a counterexample.

The only specific point you brought up were transformations. I'll say this now: I don't give a single shit about transformations. Transformations have been dumb since the Buu arc. It's all shit. SSJ3 is awful, Fusion is bad (The fusion characters tend to have interesting moves for fights, but the core concept is weak and the designs are terrible), SSG is bad, SSGSS is bad, SSJ4 is bad, etc. UI is a little bit fun because it has lead to some unique choreography and initially had an okay design, but UI (completado) is quick to correct that one virtue. The fact that people (not necessarily you, mind, just people I've seen on the internet) base which sequel they like better almost entirely on which transformation is "cooler" is legitimately mindblowing.

Oh, silly me
Thanks for the source

You're holding Super up to higher standards than DBZ, or in other words, you're giving DBZ a nostalgia pass.

It was explained in the manga that he fused with a human so he never forget the mistake of letting humans living in the world.

>Goku and Piccolo team-up
>Goku dying 5 episodes in
>Piccolo training Gohan
>Piccolo saving Gohan
>Z Fighters getting thrashed by Nappa
>Goku returning
>Krilling letting Vegeta go

that looks like shit to anyone not from the southern hemisphere, which are the only opinions that matter.

Now fuck off and get back to doing a shitty fan animation of Blanco vs Jiren in the last episode so Toei can steal it from you and finish their work.

even if you compared super to modern shonenshit, it's very bad

>patrician tier
watched DB first

>56% tier
watched DBZ first

>underage tier
GT/DBS first

>grandpa tier
read the manga back in 1984


>At least the art and animation was good.
No, DBZ had just as many problems as Super did. The internet back then didn't have the convenient tools to clip them and point them out.

goku died at the end of GT

Are they? The normies seem to take the biggest offense to Goku's voice and retarded, amoral character.

I only got to watch DB when I got a modem

>SSG Gogeta with a Fur Coat

>ssj 1 is just yellow hair
>ssj 2 is just the same shit but with static
>ssj 3 is just more yellow hair
>ssjg is just base form and anorexic with red hair instead
>ssjb is just, well, blue ssj
>UI is just goku with sparkles
This is why I love Oda so much, the designs are fuckin cash

no one cares about the opinions of spics and niggers

Did he I thought he just went with the dragon

>cant read
ESL detected

z had good episodes

all of super looks like garbage

>At least with GT the writers were actually trying to do something interesting.
Super rehashed a lot of ideas that have already been done.
Baby Vegeta arc was just plans to eradicate the saiyans, Super 17 arc was Super 13, and the Shadow Dragons were just the Red Ribbon army generals all over again.

>It looks like a goddamn chinese knock-off
Pretty much this. Everything about super feels like a fanfiction.

SS1 and 2 are fantastic, so are fusions. The rest can fuck off though.

Kaioken is best transformation.

>all of super looks like garbage
super has good episodes

>It's 100% forgettable, soulless garbage. Nothing lingers
SS4 will be remembered for much longer then anything that came out of super.

>Goku with red blue pink white hair
>vegita with kawaii bluer form
>Broly with boobs

wtf, fusions are great, SSJ2 was okay.

Toryama relied too much on transformations, I guess, mostly, to sell toys.

Kaioken is a technique not really a transformation. Only thing that changes is his aura.

Aura transformation, correct.

Super is better than forgettable run of the mill shonen like black clover or light novel adaptation #290121


>sell toys/animate
>"hey, let's just change the color of their hair... less work for y'all eh? :>)"
shit, I think I just red pulled myself

That's not true. Say what you want about it but SS Blue is a form that will be remembered far longer because it is canon.

SSJ 3 and white/magenta/blue hair shouldn't exist.

Their aura should be pinkish, like kaioken, they could've even said that kaioken was the first step to full control your KI or something.

and then God should be a status, not a Ki thing, a title... like Kami-Sama was a God, after all.

>UI is a little bit fun because it has lead to some unique choreography
No it didn't.
Every single UI fght has been fucking stupid

>and initially had an okay design, but UI
Mystic gohan with inexplicable grey cat eyes and a retarded photoshop filter is not an okay design.

It's them realizing the new power up for mystic gohan looked good and deciding to slap it on goku along with stupid justification for it.

And your points are all HURP DURP NOONERMEMBERS IT!

You're right. But that's a good thing in most cases.
People will always remember how egregiously bad super was for the most par. Worse, they'll bring up how much potential Super just shat on.

>Super is better than forgettable run of the mill shonen like black clover or light novel adaptation #290121
I'm indifferent. I'm just watching Super for the shitstorm outside of the show at this point.

SSJ4 bring in more money.
SSJ3, in spite of how much toei shills shit on it, is still more popular then SSJB/SSJG/SSJ Kawai/SSJAsspull/SSJKKx20.

>Every single UI fght has been fucking stupid
UI Goku vs Kefla had great choreography, fuck you. Dislike the form all you want but you can't sit here and pretend like it doesn't star in the most creative sequences Super has had.

Trust me, I watch a lot of shit and I'd rather have something like Super than a random startup shonen that's just going to rip off Dragonball anyways.

why did they tern him into a adult gotenks

It's litterally not.
If not for Z Super would be considered the dumbest shit known to mankind.
It's litterally getting away with murder because DBZ is still such a dominant force in shounen and anime.

Super is ugly and feels unfocused, like as if they're placing the tracks while the train is running. I wish they stayed with the movie format, that would have definitely fixed the problems I had, surely.

> It's litterally getting away with murder

Not anymore it got cancelled and would be a other Dragon Ball anime every again.

That is fucking stupid.

I would have been happier if he was like...
Remember after he merged and he went on this crazy ass sobbing tirade about humanity and taking it upon himself and sobbing?

His form at first looking angelic but him slowly transforming and mutating into a demon or whatever because of his demonic kai energies and the potaro ear-ring that was damaged by Mai(or maybe a new female because mai and trunks is just unpleasent to think about)
That would have been better then what we got.

The powerlevel scaling. In Z, they literally fought Buu for 100 episodes and he just wouldn't die until the very end when they had to give it their all to completely destroy him. After fighting such an enemy for 100 episodes, the viewer is led to believe that this enemy truly was the strongest in the universe and anything stronger would be meaningless. Then in Super, Buu is literally relegated to shit-tier within the first few episodes as the existence of Gods is revealed which completely shits on the entirety of Z. And iirc, Super takes place, what, only 6 MONTHS after the end of Z? So all these strong motherfuckers were lurking in the shadows all along while Buu was alive and nobody knew of their existence? Way to insult the viewers' intelligence.

Also, remember training in the Time Chamber and how it was an important plot point? Goku et. al. had to train for a really long time to power up enough to fight Buu. Now in the ToP, which lasts fucking 45 minutes, they're gonna power up beyond anything they've ever been able to achieve before? Bullshit.

Also powerlevel comparisons between the characters just lost all meaning in Super, for example, 17 1v1ing Goku as SSJB and Piccolo being as strong as Gohan. Fuck off.

>i-it was for gohan

I find it absolutely hilarious that the Blanco meme turned into reality.

We need get super ban off of Cred Forums.

It was always Toei focus testing. The traced scenes show that.

what do you mean

Master Roshi was the greatest martial artist alive and the one person goku would ever have any trouble fighting against.

How long did that last?

As for gods.
Why should they care if a natural disaster like Buu was released and destroyed a few planets here and there.
He's nothing and the natural movement of all things is more important then saving the life of a few shitters.

Fucks sake. I'm STILL pissed that they stated that the universe only has 27 fucking worlds with sentient sapient life.

That Frieza WAS the strongest mortal being(second only to Cold apparently) and that there weren't a ton of other strong and stronger beings in the universe besides him.

Fucking awful.

Remember when having to heal was a thing? Apparently you can just rest for a few minutes now.

Super gave us the memes.

Beerus was sleeping and the Kais tried to stop him.

That's been the case since Super Buu. Goku says he'd ned 1 minute to be back to full strength, but the retard forgets to switch off SS3 and loses more than he recharges, rendering Vegeta's noble sacrifice (or attempted sacrifice) moot

The first tournament was a great chance to have Whis train more than just Goku and Vegeta. I was hoping we could see Piccolo and Gohan reach new heights. I would have loved to see Piccolo be relevant again but all he did was lose to frost and then job to a fucking bug.

you might want to put when vagets did that to cell or when goku did that to frieza and every hit like that in dragon ball

>villain was Goku Black
>hero becomes Goku White


>mfw Goku Blanco is canon

Biggest mistake was making the ToP a battle royale. Would work in manga format, but it was a setup for failure for a weekly show, having a tiny budget and resources allocated to each episode every week. It was just not feasible to make it successful in any way.

Biggest Fail was Anime ahead of the Manga. Toei Writers are Idiots with no consistency.
Example: Goku and Vegeta trained with Whis and not just like 5 Min. Both of them dont stopped train after Boo Saga. The only Time both of them whould have needed to transform to SSJ Blue Level should have been against Toppo and Jiren. Delusional Ideas like U6 Saiyans that are near in Strength. Or brain dead Gohan Fans who think Gohan should be as strong as his Father with Zero Training in the last 8 Years......lol. Gokus and Vegetas SSBlue supressed Punch whould killed 90% of the Tournament Fighters. Fuck Toei bullshit Writers

To much focus on Goku, part of what made Goku a compelling hero in Z is how there was build up for him, most of the Frieza and Android saga he isn't really doing anything himself, rather they are waiting for him.
His focus in BoG is fine, and the anime did a pretty okay job at adding stuff (but arguably just stretched out a good fight to monotony)
but RoF could have done a better job at building up towards his appearance.
Sure the Z fighters got to fight a few soldiers, but didn't really have many character moments, other than showing Gohan's humiliation against FIRST form Frieza (this wouldn't be so bad if in the latest arc that Gohan actually did become strong again, but not really)
Universe 6 Tournament is all about Goku, it starts with Goku, it ends with Goku. Vegeta and a bit of Piccolo get some spotlight, but its Goku Time
Let's not get Started with GOKU Black arc, its got a lot more other problems.

That's Kai you retard

ToP - can't have one episode without Goku showing up and fighting
Krillin was showing promise, but when he gets knocked out his own wife is talking down on him
Tien doesn't get a character moment, what would have been good? him using a new move, showing the amazing skills humans can have despite lack of power or some shit.
Roshi was treated well though
Piccolo didn't really get a character moment
Android 18 didn't really need much
Android 17 surprisingly had a lot of good character moments
Gohan, a fucking joke. couldn't beat 1 guy all by himself. and the worst part is that he was built up
Vegeta was treated okay but didn't really have a solitary episode
Frieza is just funny

Jiren was poorly built up as a villain. what made Frieza intimidating was that his men did more shit than him, making him seem intimidating because he controls these monsters, but Jiren's group was mostly jobbers

>DBZ had just as many problems as Super did
DBZ doesn't have a fraction of the problems that Super has. If you had actually watched it recently you would know this. The quality is literally night and day.

Red hair twink Goku is great, shame they don't use him more

>That's Kai you retard
If that's the case then why did they add an unfinished scene into Kai?

Because the people who made Kai were retarded

I can't find anything about that scene being added in, are you sure it wasn't in the original too?

The problem is not Dragonball as a franchise, the problem is with Toei as a studio. The inconsistent animation is hardly their biggest problem. It's actually the writing. Take a look at all the recent reboots/spinoffs/sequels to old series they did. Sailor Moon Crystal, Saint Seiya Omega, Saint Seiya Soul of Gold, Tiger Mask W, Mazinger Z Infinity, the list goes on. They have great moments of animation, but there's only one thing that's actually holding them back from being great, and it's the stale and uninspired writing. It's like they don't want to take any chances with their audiences and make something phenomenal. Instead, they rely on cliche storytelling conventions and play it safe.

It was in the original. Don't give him (you)'s. Kai isn't reanimated, the keyframe cells were all used. Only ones that weren't were some at the very beginning in the Saiyan arc due to the cells being in horrible irreparable shape.

Toei's spread out way too god damn thin for what resources they have. That's their major issue. You forgot to mention Digimon Tri which has suffered heavily from writing issues.

...digimon looks different to how I remember it

Goddamn did they shill the fuck out of 17.

First Piccolo couldn't hear the bug.
You know, the guy who can fucking hear trunks tell goku that he's a rape babby and that bulma raped vegeta making him that daddy from multiple miles away,
The guy who's entire thing is using his enhanced super senses and meditating and has better ki sensing and could in canon sense god ki then litterally any "Z fighter" ? Yeah that guy can't hear a fucking bug.
But 17 can!

Remember vegeta's sacfrice to stop buu?
Yeah no, that's a magical faggical technique that he can survive. Not a suicide attack that violently explodes all of his ki in his body in a small area.

But 17 can do that and did do tha!!
The problem with super is that they will steal ideas and things that work for other characters and give them to characters that shouldn't have them because the producer says that this character needs to be pushed in an ep or whatever.

i like super. it's got a lot of flaws but i can still get enjoyment out of watching it every week.

Toyotaro's going to fix it, he's going to put Piccolo and Tien in the final ten, I feel it. They're going to be relevant again.

that is objectively false.

It didn't fix a single problem that later DBZ had. The sidecast stayed nefted, more stupid super saiyan transformations, uninspired villains, plots that meanders and don't go anywhere and goku and vegeta overshadowing every single other hero in the show.

What made DBZ work so well was its organic world and lovable cast and a sense of story progression. On super, goku and vegeta do a thing and beat up a bad guy. Rince and repeat.

you were 12 years old when you saw Dragon Ball Z

now you are like 25 something years old and you still think you are the target audience of Dragon Ball

>organic world
world has no consistency and the entire human populace is treated as a joke by the Cell arc
>lovable cast
a ton of the side characters were boring and shitty, especially Chi Chi, Videl, Goten, Yamcha, Tien...
>sense of story progression
slowest progression ever, literally had a peanut gallery of useless characters reacting to things happening just to pan out episodes

face it, Dragon Ball was only good because you were a kid. People who didn't watch DBZ growing up have no nostalgia attachment to it, honestly I've watched both DBZ and Super and Super is the better series without a doubt. DB Kai might be better than Super but DBZ is nearly intolerable to watch today because of all the awful padding.

Digimon has gone through multiple artstyles since Digimon Tamers. Tri takes place few years after Digimon 02 (honestly I wish this shit series was erased entirely), it starts out well but fumbles about especially considering how it's basically hour 2 hour long episodes every 6-8 months.

The writing to be honest, although I admit that I've been very entertained by Frieza in the tournament of power arc (not in the most recent episodes though).

Jiren is the worst character I've ever seen in the series. He's completely boring with a tropeish backstory with no specific details whatsoever. They took the summary of another character and in a half-assed way copypasted it onto Jiren, without explaining who the big bad was, how Jiren got stronger, what his life or comrades were like.

The half-assed way they told Jiren's backstory also goes for this entire current arc. This arc should have been massive, probably divided into several arcs and spanning a pretty long time. They needed to develop all the different universes and the multitude of characters more. Some characters were destined to be jobbers of course, but there should have been more major characters from each universe, with more detailed explanations about their past and what is at stake. Instead, what should have been tragic scenes about universal erasures came across as trivial, except perhaps in the case of the more well established universe 6.

As an addendum, the tournament of power was billed as a strategic enterprise in which the teams would have to actually work together carefully to eke out a victory. There have been few examples of that in this arc; it's mostly just been about power. However, the scene where Gohan and Frieza tricked Frost into making him believe that Frieza had betrayed Universe 7 was pretty well done. There were also a few good scenes with Android 18 working together with Krillin and Android 17, as well as the Universe 6 saiyans working together. If the tournament had been more about that, with groups fighting groups, I think it would have been better.

>I've watched both DBZ and Super and Super is the better series without a doubt
>DB Kai might be better than Super but DBZ
Congrats on having the worst taste in this thread.

Rules are meant to be broken, since we needed ideas like the ones in Super 20 years ago, just wasted potential all along, since kids doesn't want good stuff, just screaming, transformations and fights.

And kids always bought money.

>It's 100% forgettable, soulless garbage. Nothing lingers
Wow! I feel exactly the same about Super, what a surprise. GT is superior for 1 reason, I heard it's shit and didn't waste time watching it. I didn't get the same warning with Super and now all I have left is regret at the time wasted

>The kid argument
The show didn't play on television. It only came to me when the Internet came. That was when I was around 16. I literally couldn't watch the show until I moved out, because my parents refused to upgrade out internet package, so I didn't get to watch DBZ until I was 18. As someone who watched DBZ in prep for Super I can say with absolute clarity that Super is far below the bar Z set. It's absolute bottom barrel schlock, comparable to bad WWE character arcs in writing and almost as bad as 2015 Berserk in terms of art and visual qualities. Super is garbage, and the only thing that keeps me watching is the hilarious discussion that happens outside of the show. It's really that bad.

>as a joke by the Cell arc

Saiyan arc. By the time of the Cell arc every human is basically a shallow retarded puppet easily fooled by the antics of a sideshow man. They're basically sacrificial lambs constantly revived over and over when shit hits the fan and yet seem to have no input of what the fuck happened at all. Hell those poor assholes in that city that got killed by Nappa never got revived. There's nothing "organic" about the populace of Dragon Ball's Earth.

>Chi Chi

One of the most pointless characters in the entirety of Dragon Ball. Toriyama practically admitted he was sort of forced by his editor to have Goku married and Toriyama always hated romance shit hence why Chi Chi went to just being some nagger. Not to say her personality was anything else outside of that ever after her becoming an adult. As a child she was basically damsel in distress that appeared very few times outside of filler.

>DBZ is nearly intolerable to watch today because of all the awful padding.

I can't believe people FORGET just how ridiculously long DBZ was. The padding out per arc was horrendous and it was the joke of all jokes of anime since the 90's for having 75% filler. People like to cry about Super's animation, but the amount of stock/bank animation, exposition, and flashbacks of prior episodes was notorious in DBZ. You'd have Goku flashing back to Krillins death by Freeza literally 5 episodes later for entire 1-2 minutes and then cut straight to King Kai telling Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Chaozu what actually happened. Yes, a lot of people who cry about Super are also the same people who haven't watched DBZ since around 2003 on Toonami. And while Kai did a lot to clean up the filler, it still had to keep some of it in because animation wouldn't be consistent in some areas if it wasn't.

Super lacks blood and more impact in the fights and punches. Characters bled by a punch in the face in the old one. This one is kiddy shit.

you heard it was shit after the first time it aired. When i was 12, it seems GT was somewhat "Ok", just because after frieza\cell anime in dbz was always the same: New enemy -> everyone have to get stronger. GT and Super tried to get to the old times, when a new ssj is not enough.
As always, Dragon ball is for kids. and now is more expensive to make a better thing.

as viewers we have priorities.

Not him, but where do you live? I remember watching DBZ on WB in the morning in 1996 and then on Toonami in 1997. Once the show stopped at the infamous Recoome/Goku and ran on reruns for over 2 years, I started to watch subbed shit from Japanese import store's selling VHS's even borrowing them from an older brother's friend. Super isn't complete shit, it has flaws and many of them have to do with the botched production that Toei placed under the show due to horrible time management when they replaced Kai on Fuji TV. But so many things I can't see Dragon Ball without. Hit, Beerus, Whis, Jaco, Califla, Frost, Zamasu, and Black are all great characters and add so much to the cast. Even the filler episodes had many wonderful nods to other Toriyama works. And again, I'm not saying it's perfect, because it's far from perfect and there's a bucket list of things that could've been done tremendously better.

>Goku says he'd ned 1 minute to be back to full strength
He wanted 5 minutes to focus his energy to a point where he could try and finish Buu in one shot and didn't realize that his mortal body consumed so much energy compared to his dead one, this is the point where everyone finds out that SSJ3 is actually the shittiest transformation

To be honest, what's keeping me watching super right now is the possibility of a troll "fuck you" ending in which Frieza wins and wishes for something outrageous. The idea of Frieza winning and then the whole thing ending on a gigantic bad end cliffhanger is intriguing enough for me to keep tuning in to make sure he sticks around. I also love the idea of people getting pissed off at such an ending. If it just ends up being Goku vs. Jiren at the end in a really predictable way, I'm out. At that point I actually don't care who wins. Even if Jiren wins and universe 7 is erased, it's not particularly interesting because there will undoubtedly be some kind of hand wave to explain universe 7 and universe 6 coming back. Maybe Jiren will wish them back, Zeno will show mercy or something else will occur to stop or reverse the erasure of 7. With Frieza winning, the obvious notion of Universe 7 continuing to exist will be out of the way, but a bunch of other shit could at least happen that would be a surprise.

> There's nothing "organic" about the populace of Dragon Ball's Earth.

and will never be, since you get simpathy for a character, not population.

>Chi Chi
Yeah, probably same as videl. Toryiama always was forced, even in dr slump choices.

>for having 75% filler
And it was subtle filler, as Dragon ball kai showed us. media industry is basically this, less effort more gains. You can double the episodes for make more money from ads. 70% of viewers on the planet haven't read the manga, so no one will brag about length.

This shit is also what makes tv series long as fuck

You tell me, user; was DBZ a sunday morning cartoon?

>I'm mentally 12 thus blood equates to maturity

If you want to watch an anime with blood, there's hundreds of them that do it better than DBZ ever did. Bleeding does not make the story 'less kiddy' as long as the impacts are the same. Did Freeza need to bleed from the mouth when when Toppo went GoD and punched him right in the gut? Would that make the scene different anyhow outside of the audience fully knowing that Freeza was getting wrecked to death?

And I hate to say this, but it seems people are retarded enough to think that Dragon Ball was ever not some Shonen Manga to begin with aimed at 6-14 year old boys in Japan. The mentality of "cursing and extreme violence equate to maturity" is actually the opposite.

>Videl, Yamcha, Tien

Diagnosis: You have shit taste.

>sense of story progression

Characters aged and changed. Difference is pretty noticeable when you look at Goten and Trunks in Super. Everyone's just been frozen into their "iconic" appearance.

Speaking of Chi-Chi. Super rolls her character right back to being a nagging bitch after Buu Arc has her train Goten.

Pretty much everyone is awful in Super.

That would be shitty lazy writing given how obvious they’re already setting him up for that twist even before th3 tournament even began. I’m tired of Frieza coming back to life for the second time, and being the big bad for the third time.

The reason why there was so much filler in DB and primarily DBZ is because Toei wanted to make absolute sure they never caught up to the anime. Toriyama was usually months ahead of the anime and Toei never wanted to make it weeks closer. Japanese TV works very differently from American or Western TV in general. It's sink or swim. Seasons of a show never happen and if you lose your time slot, it's first come first serve and you might not get it back for years upon years.

Freeza is insanely popular in Japan. On top of the fact that his personality is more complex outside of "I gotta murder everything because I'm programmed/born to do so" like Buu or Cell.

You could do so many neat things with the ToP. Like U6 Saiyans taunting Gohan for not going Super Saiyan just to be done in anyway. But nah, we have to stretch everything to an endless struggle, so Goku and Vegeta fight some grunts forever

as a japanese stuff, they have more targets as the rest of the world, so different censures.
In italy, they aired that shit at every moments, since it was heavily censored.
More or less, cartoons here are just for youngsters and nerds, but once again, they bring money and then they aired the entire DB series like 10 times.

That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be lazy shitty writing if they went with Frieza planning something evil. Everyone can see it coming miles away.

You do realize that DBZ was picking up the same timeslot that DB did, and that a prior Toei show did, and prior to that Dr. Slump. Yes, Dr. Slump was airing at 7pm in the early 1980's on Fuji TV. Keep in mind that DB aired on a local network, not a cable network. Toei was holding onto that 7pm timeslot for decades and the decision for DB/DBZ to air at 7pm had nothing to do with "m-muh maturity of muscle characters gettan stronger"

I think Goku vs. Jiren is worse. Both of them are extremely boring. I'm bored of this schlock about Jiren being so strong. I'm also tired of Goku unlocking new transformations to overcome some bad circumstance instead of the writing coming up with a way that he (or others) outwit their opponent instead. As far as the series setting Frieza up for a twist where he wins, I actually did not expect either Frieza or Android 17 to make it as far as they did. At the start of the tournament, I would have guessed it would have come down to something like Goku, Vegeta and Gohan with Jiren, Hit, the Universe 6 saiyans and maybe a few other powerhouses from the other universes still around. I definitely expected Frieza to get eliminated by Toppo or Jiren by now, but he's still hanging on for dear life somehow. If he ends up just being eliminated by Jiren anyways, in my opinion that's much worse writing. In that case, was there any real point in keeping him around aside from the suspense?

I watched DBGT before I watched the cell or buu arcs and I thought it was shitty even though I was 8. I only watched the saiyan arc when I was 24 or so and I thought it was great. OP is right, theres *something* about DBZ that makes it charming.

Honestly I wouldn't mind it at all. It'd be a great cliffhanger that wouldn't kill the hype train for the show to continue after Kitaro. On top of this, Toei could finally get their shit together so pre-production isn't an absolute nightmare and they can have a proper development/production time for each episode rather than the dismal 4-6 weeks they been getting for each episode.

Kids are eating up Super, so. No, you're wrong sorry.

The fights lack impact, mainly cause they're now ridiculously tame, and because of that the stakes are always really low.

Super would be nothing without the Dragon Ball name.

Of course plebs would eat up such a dumb twist that everyone saw coming. When will Toei actually step out of their comfort zone and bring in something new?

Idk of you guys had this in your country, but where I live chinese and indian people used to sell fake merchandise of popular brands like pokemon, sailor moon, and of course dbz, or even just paint characters of said shows in the front of their shops to attract kids. Of course they had no clue who this character were so sometimes you'd see retarded shit like a deformed goku with green hair hanging with fucking winnie the pooh or doraemon on some poor kid's backpack. The thing about dbs is that it feels like watching an actual anime inspired by these awkward knock offs made by people who had no idea what they were doing and just tried to use popular characters to sell their shit to naive kids

>Not him, but where do you live?
Between Australia and New Zealand until 2007.

If you have brutal fights between strong warriors, you need some sort of damage. Super has none of that and it's one of its major issues at that point. We actually need Krillin to tell us "man he's taking major damage" or Vegeta thinking "every fiber of my body is screaming in pain" to track what's actually going on. At least in Dragonball and Dragonball Z, we didn't need these stupid comments, cause we could see the damage. Goku had holes in his body several times, Vegeta broke an arm against the androids, Gohan couldn't move an arm against Cell anymore.
Without these things, the fights become empty. Toei basically cheated themselves through the whole ToP, by healing Goku whenever it's neccessary. He received major damage multiple times, but because they didn't show it, they could just make the viewer forget about it.

And yes, ATATATATA lacks impact.

If "new" means bad, half-assed characters such as Jiren, I don't want it.

Super has been a real mixed bag for me. I feel like it has made the series more interesting lore-wise in some respects, but they're not doing much with it. I would have liked to have seen more development of the various universes and the characters within them. They fleshed out universe 6 a bit, but the others largely seem pointless, including universe 11.

If Frieza does get a wish, I'd like the wish itself to be a twist instead of something obvious like "I want to come back to life and have more power." Frieza's a twisted enough motherfucker that he could shake things up, and he's entertaining enough on screen that I personally don't mind seeing more of him as opposed to some shit villain like Jiren.

The moment it the Battle of The Gods ended they had no idea how to write anything involving tangible stakes. Even when they got close they just made pointless decisions for no reason (Gok Black arc ending). On top of that they took crticism of DBZ and doubled down with the bland power-ups and "Goku show" stuff

> Difference is pretty noticeable when you look at Goten and Trunks in Super. Everyone's just been frozen into their "iconic" appearance.

This was Goku when he was 16 years old. During a 3 year time gap upon turning 19 years old at the 23rd Tenkaichi, he sprouted. This is likely a trait among saiyans and Gohan likely inherited his mothers gene. Though even Teen Gohan wasn't as 'tall' in the manga and most of the anime (same size as Krillin).

>But what about History of Trunks

Never 100% canon and wasn't done by Toriyama himself. We could also hypothesis that both Trunk's had a different genetic trait due to Future Trunks destabilizing shit by going back in time much like how the present time Androids weren't evil or whatever. Of course this is all theories until Toriyama says something.

Compared too....what?
Which was at it's peak with Vegetta? Who was bodied handily?
SSJ3 looks diferent looks cool and was powerful
Perfected SSJ1 shortened their lives and was weak and SSJ2 was too weak to be of any use and was just SSJ1 with slightly spikier hair and occasional lightning bold.

SSJG is still hated
SSJB is a joke
UI is no one's favorite transformation and is still considered that retarded thing that goku does sometimes.

>Never 100% canon
5% of it is, why not the rest?

>We actually need Krillin to tell us "man he's taking major damage" or Vegeta thinking "every fiber of my body is screaming in pain"

But that type of exposition happened all the time in DBZ. Actually even more so in DBZ because of filler padding.

You really need to go back to watch the show And the cuts and bruises of a character didn't necessarily mean they were in bad shape to the point where they couldn't fight. Take a look at pre-SSJ Goku against Freeza and how immediately recovered all his stamina and strength when he turned SSJ. We had several moments in DBS where a character was severely injured, such as when Gohan was impaled multiple times by Freeza's finger beam or when Black stabbed Vegeta through the chest, or when Goku was stabbed and then told how his son and wife were killed by Zamasu.

>Toei basically cheated themselves through the whole ToP, by healing Goku whenever it's neccessary.

Goku got plenty of bullshit heals in DBZ where he'd be completely out of strength and then get angry enough to activate SSJ and then at the end even spare enough energy to a sliced Freeza and still beat him after that. Same with the battle against Kid Buu. He'd be drained out of SSJ3, see Vegeta get wasted, come back as SSJ3 once again.

> ATATATATA lacks impact.

So most of DBZ? Or are you just going to cherry pick the Vegeta Vs Recoome clips and not the inbetweens?

So what exactly do you propose than?

They're eating up shitty fanfiction of DBZ.
Not super.

Without the DBZ name it would be considered unwatchable trash and the studio would be blacklisted by geeks.

What the fuck was going on with those shitty adobe aftereffects looking Zamasu faces in the sky at the end of the arc? It looked like hot garbage.
Universal Tournament was basically what people have been writing fanfictions about since Z but here it's just some long drawn out battle against U7 specifically instead of a battle royale featuring enemies that literally look like what you'd expect a jobber to look like

>So most of DBZ?
DBZ was mostly good ATATATATA.

>It's 100% forgettable
It is so forgettable that you remembered all its flaws.
>soulless garbage
Go and watch opening and ending, Was so good that they did not changed it even once, while Super is left with generic op and end. To this day I can sing part of them. Also, final goodbye segment reminiscencing over DB story, from DB to GT.
>Nothing lingers, Not a single line of dialogue left an impact,
SSJ4, Golden Oozaru, Gil, Baby and Omega, Dr. Myu, Pan, some of the Dragons, Luud- there is plenty characters that are memorable and moments, like Goku transforming into Golden Ape and later into SSJ4, Gogeta fusion, Trunks
turning out to not being possessed, Goku passing title of protector of earth to Vegeta and leaving with Shenron for 100 years., Vegeta Jr and Goku Jr.
>All that remains are basically the stupidest transformations and concepts they introduced.
SSJ4 is one of the most iconic DB transformations, perhaps second after SSJ. Golden Ape, Gogeta SSJ4, Baby transformations, how are they bad? SSJ4 and Golden Ape have sense lore-wise, Gogeta is logical result of 2 SSJ4 fusion, Baby is quiet creative as well.
>and concepts they introduced.
Black Star saga, Baby saga, SSJ4 and Golden Ape concept, again how is that stupid? I understand that people might have issues with execution of these ideas. but how exactly are they bad?

Even Toriyama likes GT and implied that it might have been actual continuation of manga.


of course it all works when something "swim", even bad choices

They became shitty when they loose screen time, no wonder, kids have always shit taste.

Characters like, muten, Yamcha and tien are for grownups

Why did they even bother trying to play up Krillin in his build-up episode with all this shit about "conquering your fears" and that moment with 18 saying some shit about how we need to work together and the tournament wasn't purely about power when he goes out like a little bitch and nobody bothers working together until the end

God thank you.
This accurately sums up what's wrong with the series.

Here's the really fucked part. There is no way in hell that the average gen z chinese person would make a shitty knock off of a Z fighter.
It's too goddamned big in china.

I was 22.


>Everyone can see it coming miles away.
The argument of a brainlet. You idiots always pretend you """saw""" it coming after the party is almost reaching the end and pretend it somehow makes it a bad resolution.


Tournament Arcs

Seriously, the only reason I enjoyed the Zematsu arc was the simple fact that it wasn't another fucking tournament arc

So....Sora has saggy tits

>YFW You realize that the final battle between piccolo and 17 might have played out exactly like that in Trunks timeline
>Yfw you realize that if the androids were the ki absorbing Gero and 19 then we'd have more battles like that and less ki blast orgies.

Man, Jiren sure has a huge weak spot on his gut. He keeps getting punched by everyone for apparent massive damage.

>if the androids were the ki absorbing Gero and 19 then we'd have more battles like that and less ki blast orgies.
Weren't most of those fights without ki-blasts anyway? Piccolo vs. 17 and 17 vs. Imperfect Cell were mostly on the ground.

he can still draw pic related, but he's just too lazy to do it

>Super is the better series without a doubt

>Super is the better series without a doubt

It's not nearly as bad as some people pretend. It solves a lot of problems Z had like terrible pacing. For example, the Jiren vs Goku fight would last at least 10 episodes in Z, now it will get resolved in 2-3.

>Spics readed a script they didn't predict silver Go-

Kitaro usually lasts for 100 episodes, so it's gonna be 2 years at minimum. Possibly 3 because the Nips have to dedicate time to the Olympics in 2020. Grandma Goku'll be dead by the end of 2018 I bet.

Why does the right look so much better than the left?

Better shading, scenography and direction in general.

repeating digits of truth..

Because Toriyama didn't write it or acknowledge it as canon. Once he does, that's his decision, it's his story

Instead of fixing the issues that DBZ had(endless power escalation, cast members being made irrelevant, transformations being OP) it just made those issues bigger.

That would mean Super's manga is the canon Super story then right?

>Katopesla already eliminated
BASED Vegeta

a lot of reasons, but why do people automatically assume animation will look better just because it's made today? it's not like the principles of animation were a mystery to japanese animators in the 90's.

ok now that the dust has settled, Bulma DID fuck Trunks in the future right' There are no other men around and she's a nympho, on the other hand Trunks is a horny young teen with no other girls around...


It also attempts to make villains that aren't just evil aliens trying to steal the Dragon Balls.
Some of the fights now actually have some degree of strategy similar to early DB.
And more characters actually get their own Slice of Life episode instead of being constant fighting.

But he is right.

Actually, you CAN justify hardcore violence from a storytelling standpoint. Rather than have characters tell us that they're in pain, show us them limping, blood trickling from their arm, coughing and barely able to see straight, falling over on their opponents from extreme fatigue, barely able to stand, cracking of bones that have been shattered by brutal attacks, even droopy hair when it's usually spiky.

Dragon Ball Super does none of this. Any and all battle damage is portrayed by a character weakly holding their arm and blankly telling us they've reached their limits. True, Z had this same problem often.
So while having blood for the sake of it is juvenile, it does serve a purpose.

Toyo and Tori are truly a based combo.

>Dragon Ball Super does none of this
Literally happened last episode.

What's the best way to watch the show dubbed? I know there are some pretty shit remastered shots in Kai, so I'm iffy on it, although I do prefer its voice acting. Any recommendations for fan edits? Any which use the Faulconer music?

Vegeta crying from some ouchies doesn't count.

So anything that proves you wrong doesn't count.
And Vegeta wasn't crying because of his injuries, he was crying because he lost, but I guess that hard to notice when you have autism.

Emotional damage perhaps

The point is that he still wasn't bleeding or had any visible wounds aside from a swollen eye.

>barely able to see straight
>falling over on their opponents from extreme fatigue, barely able to stand
>Dragon Ball Super does none of this
Move goal posts a little more.

>boundman is just Luffy with big arms and tattoos
>tankman is just a fatter boundman
>snakeman is just a skinnier boundman
Not really helping your case.

>Never 100% canon and wasn't done by Toriyama himself.
Huh... there was a manga chapter. The tv special just heavily expanded and changed various details, but stuff like the younger Trunks design came from the manga.

So, the thing is the Tournament of Power was supposed to be about teamwork and strategy. I agree that some fights have demonstrated that, and for me those have been the best in the arc. I like scenes where characters outwit other characters or demonstrate prowess that stems from resourcefulness instead of a power-up.

Unfortunately, I don't like how the tournament of power ultimately became very teleological. Jiren was shown from the start to be extremely powerful; I'm not a fan of how it just boils down to him vs. Goku in the end. I would have preferred a scenario in which many of the universe 7 fighters were still in it because they stuck together and used team strategies to defeat the other teams, banding together to ensure each other's survival. Hell, I actually think the Tournament of Power would have been legitimately better if Goku had been eliminated early and the rest of the universe 7 people really had to work closely together to eke out a victory.

Personally, my favorite moments in the arc so far were the scenes of Gohan and Frieza working together.

What is he saying, lads?

>Black Star saga, Baby saga, SSJ4 and Golden Ape concept, again how is that stupid?

Ironically the Shadow Dragon arc makes a bit more sense now that the Dragon Balls are tied to an unknown god. It never struck me well that Namekians wish granting orbs were responsible for creating byproducts that were vastly stronger than Buu and everything else in the universe.

Dragon Ball isn't a hard core violence show. Again, there are plenty of anime out there that vastly exceeds violence and it does well with the tone of the story and the overall complexity of the characters in how they operate. Deaths and injuries in anime like Fist of the North Star or Zeta Gundam had more impact than DBZ ever could. And those are casual examples off the top of my head. Recoome is bloody, torn up, and has half of his teeth missing by the time he fights Goku yet he's perfectly 100% in tip top shape despite all the noticeable damage. Same with scenes with Majin Vegeta, SSJ3 Goku, Gohan ect. And even in censored versions of the show of Gohan's arm being disabled, blood splattering about wasn't the indicator that he couldn't use his arm.

>Dragon Ball Super does none of this.

That isn't an artistic choice. Keep that in mind. And no, it doesn't have to do with the timeslot as much as it has to do with Japanese censorship being more enforced over the past 2 decades that you can't show that type of stuff so openly nowadays. Keep in mind censorship debacle in Japan has been an issue since television was introduced over there. Laws were odd, vague, and never properly enforced like it is now. Speaking of timeslot, 7pm anime never happens these days on Fuji TV. Last time they aired 7pm anime was 16 years ago with One Piece.

I finally wanna read Dragonball, do I go for VIZ or is there a better scanlation out there?


>It's litterally getting away with murder because DBZ is still such a dominant force in shounen and anime.
Meanwhile SnK shows deaths and blood everywhere and is the dominant force of dark shounen titles in comparison yo.

go for VIZ, there's a better scanlation but hasn't finished all the chapters yet

Never use Mangastream aka niggerstream. Adds over the top cursing that reminds me heavily of animelabs VHS subs from the 1990's.

As a curiosity, is the better scanlation the one on kiss manga that uses Kame-senin or is there another one?

Vegeta got toppo

Part of the problem with Super is exactly that it's a Z follow up that doesn't really fit Z well though since it's not directly written by Toriyama, just an outline. Stuff like the overuse of "resolve" power ups for example is fairly standard in shounen, but stands negatively here since Dragonball generally didn't do it outside of two heavily foreshadowed transformations.

Still, it's hard to even think about Super as an original show, since stuff like the initial 4 episodes of nothing happening leading into the BoGs remake only exist because they knew there was an established audience for those characters.

Didn't mind BotGs movie
Hated RoF
Both were shit in the anime which should've just picked up the story from the end rather than retell them
Kinda liked the U6 arc purely because it exapnded the universe in a intresting way
Zamasu arc was a mess but I did like section of it
ToP has been a shitshow from the start there is no reason it couldn't have been a single elimination affair (universe vs universe) so you can skip over some of the shit universes, stop it being the U7 show. The teams should've been limited to like 4 or 5 character, 17 or whatever it was, was a dumb decision
Overall its been decent in small sections butthe majority has been shit

But DBZ is a shitty fanfiction of the original


Big problem with Super in my eyes is it seems like it's Toriyama trying to emulate his gag manga stuff from the past, but is failing to even do that. Most of the designs for Super just flat out don't feel like they belong in the same series as Dragon Ball/DBZ.

It could be much worse and retarded really.

In a way, I think they handled Krillin ok. He took out a few people with some interesting techniques and didn't really job to anybody. He lost on a technicality rather than in a fight. I would have liked to see him last longer of course, but he did better than I expected somehow. My biggest regret with him is that he didn't get a chance to really exploit the 10x solar flare he used against Gohan, or his power increase that he showed off while sparring with Goku.

I've never liked Tien personally. He always struck me as much more boring and less relevant than Krillin. At least he managed a double KO.

Roshi was great even if his powerup was ridiculous.

Piccolo was handled horribly, which was a disappointment.

Gohan had great moments with Frieza. I was disappointed when he was eliminated. I would have rather seen him stick around instead of Goku.

Android 18 and 17 were great somehow.

I thought Vegeta was actually pretty great too.

Goku, Jiren and the way this tournament just boiled down to single one on one matches and pure power are the biggest disappointments to me. Like you said, they built Krillin and Gohan up and then ended up having them job. That was annoying.

No. By new, I meant more interesting storytelling and not use predictable twists like Frieza fucking everyone over.

You don't even have to pretend. It's been quite obvious for a very long time. A twist is no longer a twist when your story is told in a straight forward manner. They turned Frieza into a scheming faggot and dumping hints everywhere to his eventual betrayal. It's tired and cliche. Don't try and defend Toei's shitty writing.

GT up to the SSJ4 transformation is actually really good. Baby is a genuinely threatening villian and his bit by bit reveal works extremely in his favour.
And then, the SSJ4 transformation sucked because writers didn't have the guts to either not make Goku the spotlight or make him fight as a kid, and the terrible grungey design which aged like milk.

Super is terrible from the first minute and has little redeemable aspects. It's monotonous and a terrible dread to watch. It constantly pads episodes with grunts who suddenly power up and become huge tanks which take a whole episode to beat, but which neither change nor add nothing at the end game, which you already know is going to be Jiren vs Goku.

them tweens

SSJ2 at peak was Vegeta getting hits on Beerus.

SSJ2 at peak was Trunks trading with Gokus SSJ3 while he did not have the massive KI waste.

High IQ post.

Zero consistency or logic when it comes to power.
Characters primarily Goku are complete fucking retards and behave nothing like their past selves.
The writing in general for the story is just absurdly bad. It makes no sense. It is constantly just the worst thing that could possibly happen.

For one the characters. They pretty much screwed up most established characters. Just to briefly mention the main guys: Goku lost whatever personality he had and became waku waku fight fight, Vegita's Z character development stopped at an awkward phase and the rest aren't given enough room. And when they do get the screentime they don't add enough to be interesting.

Then the plot became silly. I don't mind something going in a less serious direction, I like cheerful stuff. But when you think back in the old series even though you had the dragon balls and could undo anything bad, there was still a sense of danger, desperation, chaos and uncertainty. Super is just too straightforward and doesn't try much. It's just there.

Well, there are people who could review it better than me, this is just my quick take on it.
That being said, I'm a pretty open person, so I still enjoyed Super. I acknowledge all it's flaws and stupidity, but instead on dwelling on them I just appreciate whatever good it has to offer. Because there are goods in it, even if some people don't like them.

That was made by a Spaniard, tho.

Dragon Ball is better than anything on Jump and seething won't change that

The universe 6 namkians should have fused with piccolo to save their race as they were gonna lose anyways.

Piccolo would have got a pretty big power boost and you wouldn’t have needed the Android 17 ass pull for the fight with toppo and el hermano

That only speaks for the shitty quality of current shonen manga.

What about the monthly ones?

To think that someone at Toei took one good look at this shit and actually went "Yeah this is fine."

That, and

>stretching the material from two movies into way too many episodes
>very shallow stories (which was a problem before, majin buu saga barely had a plot as it kept going, it was even more noticeable if you watched DB Kai)
>tournament at the end only had a few creative moments so far
>adding more transformations, which look like deviantart "original characters" that sonic fans would create
>seeing flurries of punches and kicks thrown for the 1404319581344th time isn't exciting anymore
>mostly forgettable soundtrack, a considerable step down even when compared to Dragon Ball Kai's plagiarized tracks
>dumb writing when Super finally tried to do something new with that Future Trunks arc
>the current tournament arc really dragged earlier on when Goku was recruiting members
>once said tournament finally started, it had the same old shit format instead of being a fun clusterfuck of fighters going at it
>QUALITY in earlier arcs (again, this was a problem in the good ol' days as well before anyone barks at me over this)

This should have been an easy nostalgia trip. All it had to do was avoid mistakes the series did before. Instead it did everything possible to remind you why Z didn't age so well. I would have been happy with just getting the ocassional movie every now and then instead of a disappointing weekly TV anime.

GOKU BLANCO vs El Grande Padre when?

Episode 135 lol

Here's what I didn't like about super:

No buildup to Blue
No clear explanation for what Blue is
Goku masters Kaioken Blue with no effort after the first time.
Black Arc is really dragged out through failure and repeated attempt and the heroes basically lose anyway.
Tournament of Power does not end with Vegeta and Goku vs. Jiren, when "If only Goku and Vegeta would work together, they would be unstoppable" was the underlying theme of the show since nearly the beginning.

I'm sure there's a few other nitpicks, but those are the big ones. I'm still having fun turning my brain off and watching dude punch and shoot lasers.

>the possibility of a troll "fuck you" ending in which Frieza wins and wishes for something outrageous
Not gonna happen. Super takes place between the end of the Buu Saga and the final chapter of DBZ.

1) The fights feel fucking terrible. The fighters are nearing the power of gods but it feels weightless. Just look at this shit from the cell saga
Nothing in Super comes close to this
2) the character design is fucking terrible. Winnie the Poo, really? That fat cunt talking about love? The robots?
3) Why the ever living fuck didn't we bring Cell back. Or Frieza's dad. Yes I get the whole "he doesn't have a soul" but that could EASILY been a non factor and we literally almost got king cold but that was thrown away for a fucking gag. So instead we get Krillin and Tien? Literally everything is on the line. Not life and death but existence itself. Reality, heaven and hell gone. And we have fucking Krillin and Tien and Master Roshi. I love them as characters but they are completely out of their league.

Also Jiren is literally the worst "villian" we have ever had.

With Toriyama only doing outlines, the writers and directors for the anime had a hard time grasping just what set many scenes and battles up in the original manga and anime (both DB and DBZ).
Many bad guys are actually nefarious or malicious to the point they're often introduced into the world before they're introduced to Goku. DB and DBZ were pretty great at making the viewer anticipate a fight and setting up the dread of what happens if things go wrong.
They started to lose that touch by the time Buu came around, as the main characters were far more powerful than Frieza, who easily blew up planets and was thought to be the galaxy's strongest.
In Super, Beerus just kinda shows up, is a dick, but the way he's portrayed there's just no tension. The same with Golden Frieza, the U6 tournament. Around the time Future Trunks rolled around, they started to better understand how to build a setting and a villain, but still were pretty far off DBZ.
They ran out of excuses to make the fights interesting, which is why Jiren is literally less interesting than 75% of fighters already out of the ToP.
Toriyama should have given the direction to someone else entirely or have gotten people who understand his writing better than the current and especially early DBS staff do.
I've had fun going back to this franchise I grew up with, but I cannot call it a good anime or say it had good writing, animation or art on the whole.

So this year?

>Beerus just kinda shows up, is a dick, but the way he's portrayed there's just no tension.
Why would there be any tension when Beerus is not a villain? BoG is more of a comedy than anything else.

Gegege is better.

Because you're watching it as an adult instead of a child like you did with z.

what went wrong?
its bascially just fan fic thats all, devianart tier character designs and uninspired bland direction for most of the series, only being kept alive by the sole fact thats its dragon ball.

One too many tournaments

Shitty art and animation ATATATATATATA

Everything goes down to Goku way too often from the power ups to beating the real big threats no matter how silly it gets pic related

Absolutely FUCKS UP the power levels

Bland and uninteresting new level of transformations

And as of the ToP too many long and drawn out fights featuring low level shitters and their gimmicks. That's the shit that brought Bleach down in the Mexico arc.

this vid is what the very end will have 100% guarantee

The only wrong thing is that people should just let the franchise FUCKING ended. FMA did it and I respect it...

It's obvious Dragon Ball's gonna continue after the upcoming movie, but what series will they make if they don't continue from the end of the ToP arc?

-Will they redo the entirety of Dragon Ball Super from scratch, despite the risk of installing fatigue on the audience?
-Will they make a retelling of Dragon Ball as a whole?
-Will they make an entire new series with new characters and setting?
-Will they adapt Shueisha's stand alone stories, like the Yamcha special?

Oh no, God forbid they mess up DBZ's rock solid very well-defined power levels.

Have you ever even looked at this garbage?


Start of Dragon Ball Goku's power level is "officially" 10. Bulma's power level at the beginning of DBZ is "officially" 12. So I guess DBZ Bulma could beat up Goku at the start of the series? The Ox King's power level is almost 9 times higher than Master Roshi's.

Moving into Z you can see their helpful approximation that Oozaru is a 10x power level increase puts Great Ape Vegeta ahead of the entire Ginyu Force, the team he was fucking terrified of his whole life.

The power levels have NEVER made sense, they never WILL make sense, and nothing about Dragon Ball is consistent, not even the characters' fucking heights.

Animation studio should've have gotten their shit together right after Beerus arc, but they were already doomed by the work schedule. Only around Tournament of Power there was right kind of effort put on episodes.

Not really excited to watch Super again, except in form of available films like Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F

m8 just because Goku goes from a 10 to a 100,000,000 doesn't mean Power levels never made sense. You're using evidence that isn't relevant to what you're saying at all.

Alright, so it makes sense to you that Bulma at the beginning of Z is stronger than Goku at the beginning of Dragon Ball? And that the Ox King's power level was 900 to Master Roshi's 129?

I knew super was going to be shit when I watched RoF

>le five saiyans handholding is the ultimate secret to god ki
>le frieza does 5 push-ups he's now buu tier

Yeah no red flags from the very start. Fuck super.

The writing sucks. I can excuse the rushed animation but the writing is just fucking ass.
And I don't expect amazing writing from a kids series about space monkeys fighting people but Super's writing is just that bad.

>That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be lazy shitty writing if they went with Frieza planning something evil.
Shitty writing or not, it's still the best route to take on the basis that the alternatives are even more shit with how badly they wrote themselves into a corner.
Everyone could see it coming, but then at least they did something with all the "subtle as a brick" hints.
It's that or "look what I managed to pull out of my ass" which has basically been the general plot of the entire ToP up to this point.

Super is not canon.

>made by tori as a continuation
>not canon

>i dont like it so it doesnt count
believe it or not you can just not watch it/like it, but it is the next set of events that took place. Ignore arcs you don't like and enjoy the ones you do.

It's not just Toei though; it's Dragon Ball in general. Old school Dragon Ball generally had a somewhat simple plot, but it was executed beautifully so that even when there were more complicated storylines, it still FELT simple. Even into Z, you had deeper stories that were executed with simplicity. If you wanted, you could get fucking Game of Thrones-tier of convolution from what was going on back then. But Toriyama, being lazy (but still creative), took shortcuts that wound up working. That was just how he rolled.

The first instance where I could tell something was wrong with Dragon Ball storytelling was with Ultimate Tenkaichi's Hero Mode. The writing in that mode was so breathtakingly putrid that it actually shocked me. It was like someone's mom wrote it. Or a 6-year-old. And looking back further, all the what-if stories in the games before then had the same problem too.

Looking ahead, so did Heroes and Xenoverse. I might, what the fuck is even going on in Xenoverse? Towa sits on a phallic pole and makes past characters evil > Trunks and your Mary Sue OC go to those times to correct the course of history.
That's it. That's all the Xenoverses are.

Super is a nugget from the same turd. Writers for new DB media think "autistically lazy" = "procrastination-inspired creativity".

I really wish there'll a new IP that takes a lot of these elements and does them better. I'd give so much to have an actual look into Saiyan society besides "We are savage white-negroid battle autists"/"Wait, no, the writer was edgy back then, we are actually just furry humans with a little battle autism". Or why there's a hyper-hubristic galactic emperor who trades planets that he also casually blows up to the point he has virtually no customers. Who was even buying planets?

It's real sad that all this potential got wasted on a cartoon for 6-year-olds.

He forgot that he dropped a lot of the gag manga aspects after readers said "We don't want that shit". That's his own words too.
Also I thought old Dragonball was like Jackie Chan shit where the action itself was also funny. Why don't the new shows try doing that too? It's like Tori and Toei don't understand their own product other than "it was funny and charming at one point then it got dark and edgy and a lot of fans loved it when it was funny but a lot of fans also love the edgy action so let's do both." Seriously this is the second time they made that mistake.

Man I love how Goku's hair looked back then. It actually looked wild and unkempt. His iconic hairstyle is alright though

>I really wish there'll a new IP that takes a lot of these elements and does them better. I'd give so much to have an actual look into Saiyan society besides "We are savage white-negroid battle autists"/"Wait, no, the writer was edgy back then, we are actually just furry humans with a little battle autism". Or why there's a hyper-hubristic galactic emperor who trades planets that he also casually blows up to the point he has virtually no customers. Who was even buying planets?

Like said, you probably wouldn't get away with a story about space monkey mongoloids fighting everything that moves unless it were totally over the top. But fuck it, people got rich from dumber shit like a man who wears underwear and spandex who can reverse the earth's rotation to turn back time by flying really fast.
What I just wrote sounds as shitty as Super's writing, never mind.

>made by tori
>vague outline
>bastardized in two different directions
not canon

>its basterdized because i dont like it
here we go again. answer me this: what part of it being canon or not automatically makes it good? shitty things can be canon

>powerlevel comparisons between the characters just lost all meaning in Super
Don't fool yourself. Powerlevel comparisons lost all meaning after Mercenary Tao was introduced.

>bastardized means it is bad
it being bad isn't the point. this is not an authentic work of the author. others have made it their own thing by taking parts out, adding their own stuff, mixing it up how they like and writing their own dialogue for lack of any from the stand-in for a script given to them

>like it
like has nothing to do with it either. you can like something all you want but it won't suddenly become canon. toriyama could just use his authority to declare things canon and not just side stories or continuations of secondary adaptations and such but he never will as it isn't remotely important to him one way or the other as with so many other things fans care about

>canon makes it good
it doesn't need to do this. if it wants to be legitimate it needs to be canon though. remember this when bringing up glorified fanfiction please

Why does goku get more muscles as fights go on

>a whole lot of nonfacts and bullshit to justify his "I-ITS NOT CANON" justification

Found the soyfag

He gains muscle mass as fights go on

Watching the Future Trunks arc
Why do they quickly establish that Zamasu is immortal and Goku Black far outmatches anybody else yet for the next 10 episodes it's
>let's fight them again!
>let's fight them again!
>let's fight them again!

is it not so that toyo and toei do as stated? that toribot only makes very basic guidelines for what should happen without even bothering to write dialogue? he barely supervises toyo after toei have already fucked up with their take on things. lets the guy brazenly put in AF shit. in what world would either the manga or anime be canon when the only thing that could be canon isn't even complete enough to be offered up on its own? this fanbase eagerly takes the bait with each new piece of material time and time again. doesn't help that so many think canon is required rather than just being good while also believing being canon will suddenly make something good. not sure why you read all that shit into me just noting this series is just another official story that isn't part of primary continuity. why does that even matter to you? i bet you don't even understand the source material. for instance Vegeta is undefeated against Goku.

I'm on episode 63 and fucking
>establish you need to seal them away because you can't beat them
>IMMEDIATELY discard the Mafuba and go back to fighting
>let the Supreme Kai expose himself knowing Beerus dies if he does

>What went wrong? No seriously, what is it about Super
BoG followed by RoF provided a TERRIBLE foundation for the show/manga to build up from, so you could also say that Super went wrong even before it began.
>BoG movie: alright but features dumb power up
>RoF movie: dumber than the one preceding it, introduces ANOTHER power up despite the previous one barely having even seen any use
It doesn't help that the new power ups not only are dumb, they also look bad and even the "toy sales" excuse doesn't work, given how the blonde power ups are the ones that still sell to this day. Hell, the reason the alternate universe saiyans worked in Japan and boosted the ratings in their episodes is because THEY are the ones making use of the old beloved power ups (and it sure helps that there also is a Broly expy among them, too)

Super has no well animated fights.

There's a few in the last couple of episodes that were fine (see vegeta vs. jiren, not the one from last weeks episode though), but they were done by a guest animator.

I just want them to leave Dragon Ball alone. I don't need the characters to do new things, it's only hurting my good memories of them.

tl;dr just drop the pretense of "i dont like it makes it not canon"

Super just has horrible half-assed writing that doesn't even try to hide that it's just a cheap cash-in. It's particularly bad when at an arc climax. Zamasu becoming immortal only to immediately fuse with a mortal and throw it all away was the single dumbest thing in the entire franchise. 17 died so Goku could writhe on the ground for two episodes and Vegeta could job super hard while doing zero damage to Jiren. Those are your two main heroes. Completely pathetic. The only good things to come out of this shitshow are 17, Hit, and Gowasu.

>ITT Jealous seasonalfags and blinded nostalfags
Super was a success It doesn't matter if you hate it

>horrible writing
>annoying new characters
>non existent fight choreography
>unimaginative asspulls
>reusing of animation

And that's just the tip of the iceberg, it's easier to answer what went right with it - nothing.

I like Super. It's not good. But I like it.

I feel the same way about Z. DB is solid. GT is boring.

Because it's a glorified filler arc and that's all they treated it as
We know how it ends simply because it takes place between the Buu Saga and the end of Z

Why do people act like this matters? Nothing conclusive actually happens in end of Z, and it's not like there was ever any chance universe 7 would get permanently erased anyway.

When will these threads be sent to /trash/?

I watched Kai not long ago and I still liked it, the kid narrative doesn't work.

Animation, art design, etc. Manga is better in everyway anyway

One Piece, a series that actually has good worldbuilding, character development, and story, surpasses DB by a longshot.

>I do not believe in reading
okay retard. just know that super is merely part of a long line of official shit that isn't canon. additionally goku is a terrible father, husband, friend and so on. just simple facts for a simple boy like yourself

You're just mad something you don't like is more popular than things you do like.

For people that like Super.

Who had the worst backstory?

>Trunk's had a different genetic trait
I like to believe that due to their circumstances, future Trunks had an earlier sprout in order to adapt to the apocalyptic world he lives in, meanwhile present Trunks has no threats inbound, papa Vegeta can take care of everything.

I like Oda but his transformation aren't really that better.


This is parotting what others have said but it really feels like fan fiction. Fucking blue frieza, winnie the pooh with a mario star power, girl saiyan, super saiyan with blue hair. I want to care about it, but I can't. In fact, I like to pretend DB ended with the Buu saga, I actually prefer that ending far more without having Super happen in between.

Toei was left to their own devices. That is the single, greatest flaw with Dragon Ball Super. They had Toriyama's guideline but didn't stick to it as much as they should have. What they're producing is completely different than what Toriyama intended, and the difference shows when you compare the anime to the manga.

>Lack of choreography
>Lack of direction
>Bad writing
>Bad animation (Not surprising with Toei, but still)

>what went wrong?
Goku is still the main character

No Pedro, no.

>Why the ever living fuck didn't we bring Cell back
Too hard to animate

the nostalgia argument is such lazy bullshit. not everyone has zero perspective when they're re watching things from their childhood, and some things are clearly shit in comparison to what they were before including dragon ball

I should clarify, this is something toriyama actually said in an interview. Not just something I made up as a joke.

I don't understand this. Frieza is easier to animate but they had most episodes featuring him stand around menacingly. Why not do the same with Cell?

>the battle royale is actually a battle royale

Frankly, Super isn't great, but it was still good until ToP.
ToP was a fucking mistake, might as well write a sign that says "We don't fucking know where to take the story anymore, so here's yet another tournament."

HOWEVER, Z also dropped the ball during the whole Buu Saga.

>villain with complex design, interesting backstory and power mechanics
it all went downhill after Cell

Both are canon

It went downhill after Freeza

the manga is shit too

Freeza is stronger than Cell. Why would they bring Cell back? Freeza was a last second inclusion anyway, why the fuck would they bring in some weaker Freeza?

Now the true question is why didn't they replace Krillin or Tien with Dende, whose healing abilities would've been exponentially more helpful

True, but Cell and Androids still had great moments.
I only remember the Buu saga for jokes and fusions. I don't remember a single fight.

Hit looks goddamn nasty compared to his Fighterz incarnation

>Mfw user is right

>whose healing abilities would've been exponentially more helpful
Fucking, what?

Literally no one got hurt in the tournament of power. Everything that ever happened to anyone was completely superficial.

Future Trunks saga is honestly my favorite saga in the entire series.

So fucking kino.

Everything goes downhill after Bug Cell gets powerful. Ugg Cell sucked and Smug Cell has good charisma but sucked as a villain.

>Freeza is stronger than Cell. Why would they bring Cell back?
They made a point of emphasizing that raw power wouldn't win the tournament when gathering participants. Cell might not have been as powerful as Frieza after RoF, but he had a much richer moveset that could synergize with the other fighters, as it is literally consisted of their moves. Being able to create Cell Jrs on-the-spot is also a plus, and the tension that he has between 17 and 18 would probably be better than the non-existent tension between Frieza and the rest of the fighters.

We're obviously talking from a genre perspective.Index was definitely marketed more towards otakus rather than middle school boys who love fighting and toilet humor

>They made a point of emphasizing that raw power wouldn't win the tournament when gathering participants
And yet not even Buu made it into the tournament.

>"They made a point of emphasizing that raw power wouldn't win the tournament when gathering participants"
>The most powerful being in the universe barring space monkeys and literal gods did not make it into the tournament
Imagine my shock

Okay, wise guy, riddle me this. If I didn't watch Z as a kid, why do I still think Super is shit? It sure as fuck can't be that nostalgia bullshit since I only picked it up a few years before BoG was announced.

Did you even watch the Buu saga?