Why did Lucas and Bioware hate this game so much?

too be fair it also retconned 70% of Kotor 1

Obligatory
>but user. TOR gives you kotor 3-25!!!

Swtor sucks so much moose wang. Diseased cancerous gangrenoua moose wang.

Swtor is full of tumblrfags now

...

It took them years to add any actual star warring with GSF. Which they promptly ruined by making ship classes that function specifically so that retards who cannot into space action combat games can 'sucessfully' play and never have to not be a shitter.

Obsidian gave Bioware an outline of what they believe Revan and The Exile found beyond the Outer Rim, as well as lore indicators and what they believed the sequel should include.

Bioware, jealous of writing far better than their own, discarded it all and gave us the abortion known as TOR, effectively raping the plot.

>Obsidian gave Bioware an outline

Source?

>Helmetless Vader and Kylo Ren concept art
Whoa, they had it planned out all along.

Darth Nihilus was a cool guy

Darth Sion was cooler

Bend over

Darth Nihilus > Darth Sion by a long shot

This. Nihilus legitimately gave me the shivers.

I always lol at people who claim KOTOR 2 has a good bad guy when he's basically just a full edgelord.

>vg247.com/2013/07/31/kotor-3-was-in-pre-production-at-obsidian/
>eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-31-fear-is-the-path-to-the-dark-side

They released whatever few assets to Lucasarts, whom in turn gave them to Bioware for TOR. For which they were discarded.

All of the Sith lords were edgy, but different types of edgy.
Darth Nihilus was the "Everything is will end, dresses in full black, writes awful poetry" type
Darth Sion was the "Everything is pain, shows off scars, crawling in my skin" type
Darth Traya was the "Everything is worthless, belittling, contrarian" edgy

Nothing in those talk about LucasArts giving the stuff to Bioware.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Obsidian has people working for it that were originally from Interplay right?

I mean, nobody can really compete with that and they were probably jealous af

So what you're saying is, none of them are convincing bad guys.

...

What makes a good villain?

What is a man?

Gotta have more of those Joker-type villains, amirite?

Can someone explain the whole TORtanic thing to me? Was it just because it shat all over KoTOR 1 & 2 lore-wise or was it because it's essentially WoW: Star Wars?

I played it for a while, even subbed for a few months, then got utterly bored with it and quit. It didn't seem terrible, though it was far from what I wanted, in retrospect.

They're both pretty cartoony.

man fuck this game and its MUH NEUTRAL GRAY JEDI

literally ruins the whole point of the jedi order just to make some edgy HEH NOTHIN PERSONEL antihero OCs

The Joker would have been right at home as a sideplot to the edgy faggotry of KOTOR.

I think it was too mystical and not political enough for Lucas, rather than 'grey'.

You know the guy who played Luke wanted the original triliogy to end with Luke wondering about the dark and light side of the force.

I don't know if they do, but it's a game that legitimately doesn't understand how the Force works, so that might have something to do with it.

Pretentious fanfiction tier writing

Defeating the bottom was some emo bullshit.

Speaking of the joker.

Good thing he's not the director eh

Revan was just some generic mook in KotOR 1. It was only in 2 that Obsidian expanded on the backstory and details of the Jedi Civil War.

Star Wars WoW with tons of money and hype thrown into it. The game was a huge mess on release with tons of bad PR and was in the height of Cred Forums's growing hateboner for Bioware. There was also the whole TOR vs GW2 thing going on at the same time which is hilarious when you look back on it.

I mean to be fair Lucas gave a bunch of notes on what he'd do for Episode 7, and no one in the team actually used any of it because they were working on their own vision. I don't see much difference in circumstance there.

How so?

Lucas has very strong opinions on there being a very hard line between the Light and Dark side.

I would imagine the retcons in TOR was more bioware being incompetent than being malicious.

Hanlon's razor and all.

> top
> wants to control the galaxy with mass produced ships made from recycled stellar matter
> bottom
> oedipal complex zombie wants to impress his mentor

>Lucas has very strong opinions on there being a very hard line between the Light and Dark side.
Which is retarded being as the original trilogy is filled with grey characters. One of the three main cast members is literally a criminal who doesn't even want to be involved for most of the trilogy.

> a criminal under an authoritarian genocidal regime is automatically a bad person.

Check out the big brains on this cunt.

Later retconned in the special editions like greedo shooting first

He also shot first

>Lucas
It's like the writer couldn't be assed to even watch the movies

>Bioware
It was made using their game as a launching platform and somehow managed to be more broken exploit-wise.

>going darkside
>find out you get to have a cool looking Wookiee instead of generic space bitch
>yfw you actually talk to him for the first time

Because it had the best group of Sith Lords ever. The actual Jedi in the game were fucking garbage, but the Sith, man that was a balls rocking group of freaks!

...

>grey character means bad character
retard

Lucasarts =/= George Lucas.

When they were bought off and shut down, all their assets and the drafts Obsidian made were ceded to Disney, and in turn to EA/Bioware (and anyone else involved in developing offical Star Wars media).

Are you retarded? Where did I say anyone was a bad person? Han Solo is a self serving coward for most of the first movie, only acting when he's forced or sees a profit. That doesn't mean he's a bad person, it means he isn't some paragon of morality. He isn't black or white, he falls somewhere in between.

That's why this notion of binary morality in Star Wars is so completely retarded. The universe is filled with good guys bad guys and everything in between. Just like real life.

>Which is retarded being as the original trilogy is filled with grey characters.
Yes, but that's irrelevant because none of those guys are force sensitive and therefore have no relation to that discussion.

> no actual argument.

Yeah no fuck you, i'm done with your bullshit.

The force is in everything, buddy. It's like you weren't even paying attention.

Hanharr is literally the physical manifestation of an emo Linkin Park furry fan.

it surpassed them in every way shape and form and nothing they could ever do could measure up. this goes doubly for Bioware.

I know that, I'm just saying it's not crazy to see someone making a project and making it the way they want to and not the way someone else wishes they'd make it.

> self-serving coward.

Good and bad are descriptive terms, unless you believe that they are metaphysical entities that actually exist.

You know, like in star wars.

Yes, because Luke's internal struggle in the throne room has no shades of grey to it at all. It isn't as if the Emperor is explicitly trying to convince Luke to execute his father in order to save his friends.

I never understood all the autistic shitstorming about this. By shooting first he demonstrated that he's a quick thinker and an even quicker shot, both of which fit his character perfectly, because it was obvious to him that Greedo would try to cash in on that bounty, and so he took the quickest and simplest option to take care of that. What exactly is the problem with a career criminal doing something like that?

Also, any question with "why did Lucas and Bioware do X" can be answered with "because they're both run by retards who give no fucks about good writing".

Same reason Bethesda hates NV, Obsidian took the tools and made something better than what the creator did with them

your argument is wrong and retarded is my argument.

>What exactly is the problem with a career criminal doing something like that?

I don't know, ask Lucas.

Ad hominem, then. You fucking disgrace.

It's the difference between murder and self defense, you retard, which speaks volumes about a character.

Whether good and evil actually exist says absolutely nothing about people. A person can do bad things and not be wholly bad and vice versa. This is trivially true.

You're confusing the philosophical morality of our reality with that of a fictional fantasy universe.

>because it exposed his established morality as black and white
You make it sound like Lucas was trying to hide that fact though.

Also, the Clone Wars dove into a lot of grey areas of the force so he wasn't that against it.

Nothing within the Star Wars universe indicates an objective, binary morality exists. Han Solo is a greedy scumbag. Lando will backstab his friends. Obi-Wan lies to Luke's face about his father and sister. Qualities like these are specifically what "shades of grey" refers to when discussing morality.

It posed a question: are jedi inherently good?
And Lucas doesn't like complexity in his storylines. Writing stupid incoherent shit saves him 70c a year in printing ink and script paper.
The man is running a business.

For Lucas, bringing balance to the Force means killing all Siths. This might answer your questions

It goes against everything the Star Wars universe is about on principle. 'Deconstructing' a purposefully black and white universe is pedantic.

How about you stop trying to force your viewpoint and actually consider what other people are saying you arrogant tosspot.

There's no indication that balance was brought at all. They defeated the Emperor and Vader, that's all.

Not anymore he isn't

What the fuck are you talking about? Your viewpoint has no basis in anything that happens in the trilogy. It has no basis in the characters. You haven't provided a single argument. You've just said, "But it is this way in Star Wars," without giving a single example that actually demonstrates it to be true.

Because it clearly demonstrated how shit they are at writing

Yeah, he unpacks salads on youtube now.
youtube.com/watch?v=j4z3xv2l9_k

> arrogant tosspot spits his dummy out because people don't automatically accept what he says as fact.

Lucas because he didnt write it

Bioware because it was better than kotor 1

I haven't asked you automatically accept anything. I've asked for a single example that anything within the Star Wars universe adhere's to binary moral principles. You can't provide one.

It was self defense to begin with, dipshit. Guess Lucas thought he needed to spoonfeed retards like you who cannot comprehend why someone might act according to their character in hostile situations.

Yoda spends an entire segment of Empire Strikes Back talking about it.

Not that i'm acknowledging your right to exist in my presence.

>a single example that anything within the Star Wars universe adhere's to binary moral principles.
The Jedi and the Sith are pretty clean cut, I don't know why you're trying to pretend otherwise. The Jedi are beacons of justice and truth, the sith use scheming and violence to achieve their goals. The proof is in the movies.

>competing for second place

will there ever be a controller that will allow real, immersive lightsabre battles

Just learn Kendo.

This, you can't really do moral relative shit when being an asshole automatically makes you develop silly demonic eyes and gravitates you toward a black wordrobe.

Star Wars is for kids, so let kids have it. Motherfuckers need to stop latching on to shit with basic thematics and expecting itvto get more complex as they age. Attaching more complex moralistic sentiment doesn't fit the established themes in Star Wars and breaks universe consistancy. Enjoy it for what is or let it go.

Maybe with some V goggles. But then you'll be a fatass swinging a stick around, breaking mom's vases while sperging out in star wars.

Yeah. It's called a fucking sword, bitch.

Star Wars morality being grey isn't an inherently good thing. It tends to devolve into pretentious psuedo-intellectualism while still ultimately just saying the exact same stuff Lucas was getting at.

The only specific point I'll call out in this post is the idea of bringing 'balance to the force' by having both light and dark elements. That's fucking stupid. What makes the dark side the dark side is that it's inherently imbalanced.

>FUCKING GREY JEDI GET OUT OF MY CANON REEEEEEEEEE

I actually find the concept of an alternative reality's moralistic structure to be quite intriguing in adapting and improving upon one's own morality for use in the real world.

Creating a star wars setting with moral relativism is people trying to make star wars more "real". That doesn't exactly make sense if you think about it.

They're not part of your canon, fattie.

>the best application most Jedi can think to do with the force is force-grabbing their lightsaber when it's knocked away with the VERY OCCASIONAL force throw and some force pushes I guess

Why can't more Jedi be like her

It makes perfect sense unless you're having trouble differentiating fiction from reality.

on a serious note why can't grey jedi be a thing

>oh you used the dark side of the force like, ONCE. that totally means you've become completely corrupted and evil and shit

That's not proof of binary morality, that's only evidence of two factions tactical preferences.

Moreover, Obi-Wan clearly schemes throughout the entire original trilogy. He lies to Luke, he exerts his will over the minds of other people. His former master used Jedi tricks to con a businessman and cheat at gambling. The rebellion uses covert tactics to achieve their goals. They employ spies and thieves and smugglers and other criminals. There is far less variance than you're suggesting. The difference lies in what those goals are, less so in how they set out to achieve them.

You're also focusing entirely on the rebellion/empire conflict as if nothing else is happening in a galaxy filled with traders, gangsters, bounty hunters, farmers, assassins, politicians, and everything the fuck else. The existence of a conflict in which there exists a fairly clearly defined good guy and bad guy doesn't mean the universe itself abides by strict binary moral guidelines.

That probably wouldn't make for a good fight on screen. Imagine choreographing a fight around that concept.

Narrow-minded too, apparently.

That's not what grey jedi are, at least in these games. They choose not to pick sides and study the force in their own way, taking knowledge from both but committing to none. KotOR II in particular did a good job of portraying the hypocrisy of the jedi and presented tragic, while unredeemable, sith lords.
Kreia just wanted to kill the force because she was sick of being controlled by it.

grey jedi sound like regular jedi. The key to the light side is detachment, just like Buddhism. If they're able to control their emotions and objectively observe the world around them then they're doing it right.

Watto was miserly & greedy, and would never amount to anything even if he did manage to get ahold of a starship. Qui-Gon cheating him didn't affect him at all really.
> using the prequels to back up your argument.

You're still doing this thing where spies/thieves/smugglers etc automatically means they are not good.

>tactical preferences
Oh absolutely not, there's nothing tactical about the clean cut, fully good or bad morality in Star Wars. Prequels anakin is a perfect example of that. He was sometimes a confused, yet good hearted kid who defended the weak and destroyed evil with his powers, or a complete fucking psychopath who butchered babbies for fun. There was no nuance or subtlety to his character, just a complete shift from super goody two shoes to Lord Angstfuck, the master of shitting on toddlers' chests.

> good guys are actually not so good and the bad guys are only bad because of circumstance.
Watered down characters.

No, just generally well adjusted.

I love stories like that.

Except you can't see things from any perspective except those served to you on a spoon.

That's not watering down, that's adding complexity to them. Shit, you got that backwards, you dumb fuck.
People in general aren't completely bad or good. I find it hysterical that this needs to be pointed out to you.

Get a load of this film illiterate. Even normalfaggot critics who weren't fans of the prequels admitted that Anakin's fall from grace was excellent.

>your favorite form will never be relevant
>in fact it's not even canon anymore

instead, THIS is canon

> people in general.
Star wars is a story of exceptional individuals with character-driven plot. I can't believe this needs to be explained to you either.

Says the guy accepting fictional settings as "alternative realities". Try a bit harder next time.

seriously this is probably the stupidest lightsaber I've ever seen and they decided to make more of them. AND let you use them as helicopters

>Even normalfaggot critics who weren't fans of the prequels
Oh, you're one of those. And trying to use an argument from authority, too. Prequel apologists need to be spayed and put in reeducation camps.

Because it was more interesting than the movies

You could walk through a desert and never find a grain of sand.

That's why the Clone Wars TV series set out to fix this some. In fact, it was shown that the whole harder was pushed away from the ideals during the war.

I wouldn't call myself an apologist but I was never big into starwars anyways so the prequels were inconsequential to me

Grievous was the best thing to come out of the prequels

Did Lucas care? I know he occasionally had some influence over the old EU, but I don't remember him ever commenting on KOTOR 2.

>Star wars is a story of exceptional individuals
Not necessarily, it involves quite a lot of characters from all kinds of backgrounds. There is nothing exceptional about aunt Beru or C3PO, but they help move the story along. The whole point of Luke is being unremarkable until some unexpected series of events drags him into it.

I could also digress like an idiot to avoid the subject, but you already have that covered.

> luke is unremarkable.
> bullseye'ing whomprats in his t-16 back home like it's nothing.

The dark side is a corruption of the Force, there was no 'light side' originally, the Force was just the Force. Light side/Darkside equivitism is old expanded universe apocrypha that bled into mainline canon via popular culture. Like how Kryptonite originated in the old Superman radio show and comic writers decided to adopt it.

So if you go by what was originally said about the Dark Side by Yoda, about it being a corruption of the natural Force that surrounds and binds everything in the Star Wars universe, then yes, it makes perfect sense that the concept of dipping into the Dark Side would be bad. That would be like getting Ebola to make yourself immune to AIDs. So good job, you still have Ebola.

Your lack of respect and your generally ignorant demeanor did more to end this conversation than I ever could have done.

>Watto was miserly & greedy, and would never amount to anything even if he did manage to get ahold of a starship.
So, per the morality in Star Wars, it's okay to cheat someone if they don't meet some vaguely defined standard of "good enough?" Your sense of morality is surprisingly relative considering you're claiming this universe is one of moral absolutes.

>You're still doing this thing where spies/thieves/smugglers etc automatically means they are not good.
You are so fucking retarded, it's hard to know where to begin. Once again, I've made zero claims about who is good and who is evil. But the existence of these character's is evidence of there being more complexity than you seem willing to credit. A bounty hunter isn't necessarily good or evil, but their tactics, choice of targets, scruples, etc might lean them closer to one end of the spectrum than the other. Or they might sit comfortably in the middle.

Just because George is a terrible writer doesn't mean there wasn't a kernal of ambiguity to what Anakin does. He kills the Sand People who abducted and tortured his mother. He helps Palpatine and kills his fellow Jedi because he promises to save Padme. These are clear examples of a more complex morality. He isn't doing things for no reason or purely for selfish personal gain, but to protect his loved ones.

That this protectiveness can lead to misguided actions is precisely the kind of moral complexity that is dealt with in KotOR 2.

>That would be like getting Ebola to make yourself immune to AIDs. So good job, you still have Ebola.

Why would I NOT get Ebola?

> bounty hunters.
So you admit to making hasty generalizations in order to make your relativist argument seem like it holds weight despite the fact we're talking about a fictional setting.

Anyone know how to fix the mouse issue with KOTOR 2?

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

There's no rhyme or reason to it.

Feel free to try it.

What the fuck are you talking about? I have specifically not generalized. The post you quoted literally just said that Bounty Hunters could reasonably occupy any point on a good-evil scale.

You're the one claiming a person can only ever be good or evil, but then never actually providing any sort of framework for making those determinations.

do you have hardware mouse on or off or whatever

>Obsidian better writing

Wow if your think that your a Obsidian fan boy

Nope.

Checked it in the .ini file as well.

did you try turning it on?
that would be my first guess would be to see if changing that setting fixes it.

it might not, though.
i'm sorry.

This conversation was boring me, anyway.

Sounds like a great idea, go get infected, user.

you both are boring me and should make with the part where you start fucking each other

Yes, it just gives me two cursors instead and neither of them works.

Like I said, sometimes the mouse works, sometimes it doesn't. It's driving me insane.

Someone who is an idiot and then tries to justify their actions citing moral ambiguity doesn't makes thier actions any less retared ior complex. Anakin was a manipulated retard who threw a bitch fit about not being made a jedi master only to later genuflect to a guy who mandates that Anakin call him master.

>being this retarded

go home fuqboi

>He kills the Sand People who abducted and tortured his mother. He helps Palpatine and kills his fellow Jedi because he promises to save Padme.
Exactly, both of those actions came out of nowhere and were completely out of character. There was no gradual descent into the dark side, they just flipped a switch and he was gleefully stabbing children in the groin and trying to rape his former mentors. So, if the idea was to present him as sociopathic, I guess it worked.

>If I label an argument it's invalid
Oh, you're one of those. Strawman, ad hominem, shifting the food analogies, trip the light fantastic.

There, you just got intellectually checkmated.

youtube.com/watch?v=D8KuH_RxUNE

The problem with the films is that they don't have exposition time that's required to make such a believable descent, whereas the novelization of RotS makes it decent.

They have plenty of exposition and running time, both of which were handled horribly.

This isn't a moral framework. Give me a specific categorical breakdown of when something is good and when something is bad. Then explain precisely how many times a person must take one of these categorically "bad" actions before they themselves are bad.

Like I said, George is a terrible writer. There's still a kernal of a good idea. George just has no sense of subtlety or elegance so he immediately jumps to child murder.

Attatching complex values to Star Wars just stinks of old nerds trying to jusify thier attatchment to something they liked as a kid and want to keep for themselves demanding that it age with them.

>If I label an argument it's invalid
Well, if you use a logical fallacy, then yes. Are you mildly retarded? be honest.

In the first movie the council makes a point of saying Anakin's too young to properly adopt their ways. In the second he's shown to be hot-headed, at times contemptuous of authority and driven by his emotions.

He kills the sand people because he's angry. Anakin's the kind of person who lets strong emotions get the better of him. And killing the jedi was the culmination of a whole lot of frustration, and more importantly, fear.

>anything related to Star Wars
>complex values

>logical fallacy

ITT: a moral relativist tries to force his viewpoint on everyone in the thread using star wars as a basis for it.

It's not that Obsidian is great, it's just that nuBioware is absolute trash. KotOR was decent, yet overshadowed by the sequel, marking their downfall, they've only spiraled down ever since.

how about you fucks logically fellate each other

>Revan was just some generic mook in KotOR 1.
No?

I mean it's true that KOTOR2 made him even more OP and ridiculous, but he was already a giant figure central to the universe in KOTOR1.

>In the first movie the council makes a point of saying Anakin's too young to properly adopt their ways.
You mean too old. As for the rest of the post, he was shown as disgruntled, but always with a good moral compass. Certainly not someone you'd expect to find butchering babies.
The problem is, people already knew where the story went, so Bravo, George didn't even bother writing a character arc for Anakin. He was just angsty (like a teenager would be) but knew right from wrong. Then, suddenly and without warning he was murdering everyone.
It's fifth grade fanfiction level writing.
It's dangerous to go alone, take this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
How about you choke on my fuck, Nancy?

ladies and gentlemen: a shitpost.

>How about you choke on my fuck, Nancy?
nah suck my dick

The moral framework in the starwars universe is entirely laid out by the fact that doing what that universe considers to be awful shit makes you visibly an edgelord with red eyes, a skin disease and an optional gravitation to a glowing red sword complete with free Hot Topic gift card.

>Luke
>unremarkable

I know we all hate Mary Rey Sue, but Luke was by no means 'unremarkable'.

Bioware was too busy making Sonic Chronicles.

At first he very much was, just a farmer boy who was into speedbikes.

Clearly bait, but I agree to an extent.

Obsidifags are the most pretentious pseudo-intellectuals ever. Essentially every KOTOR thread is them shitposting about how morally ambiguous and deep their story is and why it's better as a result.

Personally, I think Star Wars works better as a space opera. From the very start it was always a very simple story about good vs evil and to try and say that's a bad thing reeks of snobbery.

At least the soundtrack was great!
youtube.com/watch?v=6o47N-aYd08

he was completely unexplained and fucking weird

i actually dont know how to feel about him because for some reason even though hes on the cover of the fucking game you learn nothing about him. is that because he eats through reality or something? or is it because obsidian ran out of time?

He was always an exceptional pilot with exceptional aim.

He was humble, not unremarkable.

>argument from authority is a logical fallacy
Why should I trust you over Armond White?

And as for what you say about the movies, this argument can't really go anywhere because what you think isn't there I do, so it can only go to an endless back and forth.

Anakin's emotions twist and unbalance him, this happens progressively. For Padme he's willing to first break rules, then as he grows more attached to her and more afraid of losing her he gets to the point where he'd do anything in the world for her. And at the same time Sheev conspires to make the Jedi look bad and throw the Republic into chaos, making a revolution seem like a perfectly good idea.

Obsidrone here, I don't think KotOR II was a better game than the first one, even though it had better villains. I'm sure Avellone and the writers of 2 would also agree. The first game did so many things so right, it's hard to compete with it.

Bioware, everyone.

They both had awful combat.

Anakin as a villain prior to becoming Vader could have been written much better, the actual fall itself that precipitated it was relatively okay.

KotOR had an inferior story but felt like it was Star Wars, KotOR 2 had a better story but felt like it was high minded fanfiction.

>Why should I trust you over Armond White?
Because he's a contrarian with a thesaurus, and it takes a special kind of idiot to take his reviews seriously. It's funny how every single one of his reviews goes against the general consensus, almost as if he waited for other reviews to show a trend and write the complete opposite to rile people up.
Also because he's a gaynigger.

Kill yourself, faggot.

Took you a whole hour to recover from your shitter-shattering, huh.

This shit again.
In the theatrical version there isn't any question of who shot first, because there was only 1 shot, Greedo doesn't even get a chance.

Fuck that, the combat engine was amazing. I don't think anyone had tried to combine real time with dice rolls and gotten it to work before. If anything, it's a shame they dropped that system in further games like Jade Empire, which had some atrocious combat.

Then my post isn't directed towards you. But having been in these threads for years now, there's too many Obisidifags who think KOTOR2 is better than KOTOR and the franchise as a whole just because it's not as black and white.

It's awful trying to argue with those people.

>>Obsidifags are the most pretentious pseudo-intellectuals ever.
This, they view anything that isn't a MUH MORAL GREY mess that shits exposition onto a plate in front of you as bad writing.

Back when he was listed on Rotten Tomatoes he's consensus rating was something like 60%. That's downright freakish for a contemporary critic but when you think about it it's not really a bad thing at all.

>felt like it was Star Wars
And that's why first Kotor is garbage.

Trying to derive combat stats from three seperate pools just makes a mess.

>KotOR was decent, yet overshadowed by the sequel

In something other than the real world?

Except the Jedi as we know them are liars, easily corruptible, contribute to leading a war that kills millions at the behest of a Sith lord playing both sides, essentially abduct children for their monastic order, are frequently haughty and unhelpful because they believe they are more right than anyone else, and sit in golden towers rather than being down with the people of the galaxy to help them.

They're dickwad paladins pretending to be benevolent monks. A good chunk of the population is said to feel that way about them in a lot of the old and new official EU material. So, the question still stands:

Are jedi inherrently good?

>KotOR had an inferior story
Did it? Everything felt fresh and exciting, there was a mystery lingering through the whole game but you couldn't point it out until you got slapped in the face with it, the characters all had their quirks and nuances. The whole trip felt like an adventure in discovery and made it look like fresh star wars. I don't think TSL managed to do the same, it was more of a brooding descent into self reconstruction than a space adventure to save the galaxy. I love TSL to bits but it was too fucking grim for its own good.

Another example of a fanbase making a game shit?

Would have worked better if he fell from grace older then what was presented. Having him fall so young felt like he wss a doucje from the start. If it were like a traditional war story where the idealisic youth is eventally bittered by the war rather than being manipulated by the mustache twirling villian, it would have made Aniken legit rather they a whiny bitch. And would have made Obi Wan's later reflection of him to Luke not retarded.

I think it'd be very cool actually, just think about it
>Main protag confronts her telling her to hand in the magic mcguffin
>She denies and states they will perish yada yada
>all she does is walk towards the protag while the lightsabers just rotate around her striking at the protag more or less playing with them
>Protag manages to destroy a lightsaber and she steps up her game.
Not hard.

Actually, the fanbase made KOTOR2 better with the restoration patch.

Obsidicucks are truly undesirables though.

When does KotOR 2 throw exposition at you? You have to hound characters endlessly to even find out who they really are. If anything, it's too cryptic for its own good.

No, but the light side of the force is.

Sith Lords who can destroy entire planets with the Force is stupid and should be forgotten by everyone.

>Did it? Everything felt fresh and exciting, there was a mystery lingering through the whole game but you couldn't point it out until you got slapped in the face with it,
Maybe it was because I was an impressionable teenager, but the twist with Revan fucking blew my mind. It was just so perfectly foreshadowed. I still fondly remember how much I was impressed by it.

I meant in terms of actual choreography. Not concept. How do you make it look good on screen? I can't see it working.

It'd look about as compelling as the protagonist trying to swat away aggressive birds the way I see it. Detachment might be a good idea to make a villain seem spooky and strong, but it doesn't make for a good fight.

It was literally too deep for the Star Wars franchise, i.e. it wasn't a fairytale in space.

A lot of that was because the movies have a limited screentime and couldn't develop Anakin properly.

Pretty much everyone will tell you that Anakin was a much better (and more likeable) character in the cartoons.

>space adventure to save the galaxy
Most unoriginal concept ever.

Best thing they could have done imho was not use Anakin as a hateful killer but rather as a detached, reluctant villain, which would have reflected his character in the original trilogy as someone who is just barely holding his power in check but is willing to use it to get the job done.

The Jedi Temple incident was pants-on-head retarded for the character.

>Maybe it was because I was an impressionable teenager
No, it was good writing back when Bioware had proper writers and developers working there. Sure, they had Malak as an afterthought villain, but they knew exactly what they were doing with the story.

Thier douche actions don't generally lead them to suddenly develop demonic eyes with slow camera pans after killing a bunch of kids, so according to the Star Wars universe yes, they are good and you have to deal it.

>good writing
Bioware never had good writers.

Say what you will about Lucas at least he didn't sterilize the franchise as Disney has.

Only Phantom Menace was remotely good.

Lucas just wanted to make a young adult space opera and sell toys, faggots just can't let it go that Star Wars was never meant to be deep.

>Are jedi inherrently good?

Jedi are just people. Are people inherently good?

It isn't exactly a high bar, but Kotor1 was a well-written Star Wars story.

It wasn't back in 1977, faghat.

>detached, reluctant villain
The point of the entire series is that suffering and chaos are the result of the worst parts of yourself getting out of check. An Anakin who isn't driven by emotion wouldn't make sense.

The series could have easily been made without the force. Lucas made some goofy decisions but he's no sellout.

Jedi are people who consciously reject a part of themselves out of a belief that it makes them better.

>Say what you will about Lucas at least he didn't sterilize
He poured salt into it so nothing could ever grow again. He did more damage to it than any other hack writer working on EU material.

I'll take the space wizards that shop at buddha barn and don't want to kill everything over the space wizards who shop at hot topic and do, but whatever floats your boat.

That was done correctly with Padme, not with the Jedi Temple segment.

Unless you mean to imply he killing children.

Was this post unfinished? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

> enjoyed killing children.
Fix'd.

But yeah, it's not like he just fucking let rip on the kids and started painting the walls with their blood.

And I for one applaud the attempt, better Star Wars burn then be regurgitated for infinity.

Lucas knows what he wants in his vision. He made THX-1138, which is the pretentious stuff you are after.

>THX-1138
>pretentious
wanna fight?

Really though, why?

hair tbqh

I think you make a good point.
TSL was a decent story, but it was not a Star Wars story. It kinda felt like an edgy teen fanfic desu

>During film school, Lucas’ favorite movies were from Japanese filmmakers—namely Akira Kurosawa (Lucas would go on to base the framework of Star Wars on Kurosawa’s film The Hidden Fortress, and eventually executive produced Kurosawa’s 1980 film Kagemusha). Because he wanted the tone of his film to be stately, intentionally slow, and somehow alien, Lucas attempted to shoot the film in Japan. He even went so far as to scout locations for the movie before budgetary restraints forced him to shoot the movie on sets and at various locations in San Francisco.

>Lucas made some goofy decisions but he's no sellout
>he literally sold out

>352183026

>Jedi are people who consciously reject a part of themselves out of a belief that it makes them better.

You saying that's a bad thing? the people who don't do this, who don't have filters, are either autists or phycopaths.

Lucas invented the numale in 1977?!

If Lucas sold out, he wouldn't have included all the boring political shit in the prequels. There was no money to be made from that. (Where is my Galactic Senate playset?!)

And this makes it pretentious... how?

intellectuals had it before it was mainstream (because they had no time to shave)

I think he meant that Lucas sold out by letting disney devour Lucasfilms and LucasArts.

I was making a joke about him selling Star Wars to Disney, user

Nothing pretentious about liking Kurosawa. Everyone likes Kurosawa.

Giving Star Wars to Disney wasn't selling out, it was relenting.

The man put years of his life into making Star Wars but at the end of it all anybody would talk about was how he didn't understand his own creation and lamenting that it would never find its way into the hands of true artists. Now the 'fans' have what they wanted and it's all going to turn into ashes in the mouth of even the most outspoken of Lucas' critics sooner or later.

well, and also this

No it wasn't, it was a terribly boring story about nothing in particular.

I tend to agree. Star Wars was over, and it should have stayed over, as a film series, anyway.

>the guy who played Luke

Not that I think that disney is taking Star Wars in the right direction, my main problem is that Lucas was an ideas man.

He could come up with concepts and details about concepts, but he NEEDS someone to refine them.

With the OT, this was done because he was a newbie to the scene for the most part. Prequels, he was surrounded by yesmen because he was the creator of Star Wars. If someone said "No George, that's stupid" or "How about we do this..." to him while filming the prequels, it would've been a better product over all.

That and George wouldn't have been a business emperor.

>light side
Remember, there is no lightside. There is only the Force. The dark side is a corruption of the bonds between life forms. So to an extent, I agree that the Force does provide a moral framework to judge people within, but the people bound to it are attuned to it in varrying degrees.

Not directly drawing on the dark side doesn't automatically make them saints, either. They are trying to be good people and do the right thing. But that isn't always easy or clear. That was the whole point of the prequels, and was one of their few redeeming factors.

In real life, of course not.
In Star Wars? I still don't think so, even with the Force and physical corruption as indicators. People change. Some who indulge in the dark side only suffer physical side effects temporarily. In fact, that appears to be the norm until the physical deformation is because of scarring, such as Lightning Face Sheev and Just Burn My Shit Up Vader. But when Vader returns to the light side, other than his physical scarring, he appears to be a relatively normal, if extremely pale and crispy old man.

The physical changes of using the corrupted dark side of the force seem to be due to the physical strain of using the imbalanced dark side, rather than because "lulz ur ebil now"."

You're a faggot.

Is that picture Seth Rogan?

Mark Hamill wanted Luke to fall to the dark side and sport a ponytail.
youtube.com/watch?v=W5EU5kM2pX0

>With the OT, this was done because he was a newbie to the scene
What?

>Prequels, he was surrounded by yesmen because he was the creator of Star Wars. If someone said "No George, that's stupid" or "How about we do this..." to him while filming the prequels, it would've been a better product over all.

>that behind the scenes video where everyone looks confused and too frightened to complain whenever George chimes in with his retarded ideas
>'I might have gone too far in a few places'
It's beautiful

It certainly provides a moral fucking framework for the people in the setting.

Also consider that Darth Vader is the only one canonically to fall to the dark side and come back.

The guy who played Han wanted Han to be killed off at the end of Jedi too

well fuck

jesus what a shitty toy

fisk pls

Yes, everyone has seen the RLM reviews.

Ford is a faggot.
But I guess he finally got his wish and had Han die the shittiest death possible.

And they're delicious

Haven't you heard?

The original cut of Star Wars was pretty bad until his wife and others stepped in and edited it.

He came up with the meat and the others cut out the fat to make a beaut steak.

He didn't like the movies even though they made his career. What an ungrateful Jew.

That and Indiana Jones

I don't understand wanting more Star Wars.

I'm also a fan of the movie 'American Gigolo,' but I'm not pressuring a now 67 years old Richard Gere to walk around with his dick visible on camera for the whole world to see again for the sake of 'American Gigolo 2: The Awakening.'

Why can't Star Wars stop?

>Lucas was an ideas man
I hope you get die. Lucas was the heart and hands driving the productions. What do you mean 'refine?'

Lucas wasn't a newbie when he made 'A New Hope.' Everyone was impressed by his technical abilities after 'THX' and 'American Graffiti' was practically shit money.

>Surrounded by yesmen
He's the director. He directs. That's what directors do. A lot of directors will just throw your ass out if you try to fuck with their vision. That's how directing works.

What video? If you mean the highlighters thing that's just George pushing technology to the limits, which has always been a passion of his.

>there is no lightside. There is only the Force.
Fuck off Obsidian-cuck.

If you let your emotions rule you and are only interested in your own selfish desires you're dark side. If you resist the worst parts of yourself act out of a detached benevolence you're light side.

RLM are low-brow as hell and have convinced half the casual film-buff crowd across the entire-world that whether or not the plot can be needled is a valid criteria for judging a movie's objective worth.

Cutting a few scenes of Luke hanging out with his friends isn't saving the entire production. Those stories are from the time before release when everything thought Lucas had just wasted a pile of time and money on nonsense.

>Includes Coruscant Taxi, Senator Palpatine, and Chancellor Valorum
t-thanks mom and dad, m-merry Christmas

As I said, I agree that there is a moral framework through the Force; my only nuance to that is that the characters don't always neatly fit into the framework as 100% good or 100% evil, for several reasons: what is their motivation? Their method? Their disposition and attitude? Han Solo is one of the most interesting characters because he initially doesn't believe in any of this, and continues to walk the line between con man and hero. Not to mention the implied fucked up family life and running away from his problems only to try to redeem his son. *

Luke was very close to falling as well, giving into rage to protect his sister at the very end. He only resisted the call of the dark side because he realized he was about to follow the same path his father did.

*Also, I do have issues with Kylo and Snoke talking about the light as a foil to the dark side. It certainly shows that multiple views of the Force do exist in canon, and thus its moral framework may indeed have some flexibility. Yoda's view does not seem to jive with this Disney interpretation.

Jealousy basically.

But KotOR 2 had far more Star Wars moments than the original. The cantina fight scene with Atton, the split party assault of the Sith base and the Onderon palace, the vision sequence on Korriban, storming the Ravager, etc.

By contrast, KotOR feels like a DnD/Neverwinter Nights game with the thinnest vineer of Star Wars. It only adopts the most superficial aspects: evil bad guy who's part robot, giant super weapon, Millennium Falcon knockoff. It never actually tries to emulate any sense of adventure the franchise is known for.

Star Wars, especially before the return of the Empire, has a universe well suited for games and novels, filled with tons of possibilities for characters, circumstances and settings. I could see content being created practically forever outside of the main films plot and I think a lot of it would be very enjoyable.

Why people want more films, though, I don't know. That story was over. What happens next isn't important, and can be left to the viewer's imagination. Sadly, it wasn't, and we got shit like Mara Jade and whatever the fuck Episode VII was. In my mind, anything coming out post-Disney ownership is just an alternate timeline that I don't have to care about, because that's really what it is.

>calling me an obsidian cuck
I'm following fucking Yoda's explanation of the force you faggot. Obsidian has nothing to do with that perception. The words "the light side of the force" are never said in any of the 6 Lucas-driven movies. You fellate him and don't even fucking know what he wrote.

To be fair some of stuff were bit too much, like killing entire planet.
But still, the best SW game and probably my favorite game ever.

>Why can't Star Wars stop?
Because the current trend for movies is take an already established series and milk the fuck out of it. Or make a totally distinct but similar movie based on what's popular

It's 4AM so I'm not going to start and debate now, but I'll point out that KOTOR felt more SW to me and that KOTOR2 didn't capture the tone or feel.

After years of consideration I've come to the conclusion that almost everything outside of the original trilogy is garbage.
It's not because of terrible writers or anything but just poor implementation and rapidly expanding on a storyline that was little more than basic hero's journey fantasy.
The Original Trilogy left a lot of details blank because they weren't nessacary for good characters and plot. Everything else has focused too much of filling in those details.

i agree but i hate that actor in your pic so much i had to say something about it
i fucking hate that faggoty faced fuck

Are you kidding?
He loves Indiana Jones, whenever someone asks him something about it you see how much more interested he is in that than in Star Wars.

I think he meant
>Why do people want more Star Wars films?

>hands
>s

Because Lucas is an idiot who can't write for shit and to Bioware it represents how much of a juggernaut in RPGs they're no longer capable of being.

KOTOR2 was probably just some unrelated script Obsidian had lying around that they retooled for Star Wars.

Just like PoE, marketed as a homage to Infinity Engine games and particularly BG, felt nothing like them.

Because Sith didn do nuthin wrong

I don't think anyone really WANTED more starwars films, we just got them because ezmoni for disney.

I meant the "Making money" part.

I know he loves it.

How can it be ezmoni if nobody wants it?

I don't understand this sentiment. KotOR 2 had virtually zero actual setpieces. Outside of the one time you're captured and have to choose which party member springs the rest of the group, there's nothing. It's just wandering around different environments. There's no real sense of momentum or urgency to anything you're doing.

The sequel is full of cinematic moments that would seem to far better capture the spirit of Star Wars. All the way from the dialogue moments---the first exchange with Atris, for instance---to the action scenes---as mentioned above.

*KotOR 1 has virtually zero actual setpieces, I mean.

>starwars is a name everyone knows because of how deep rooted it is in popculture
>already has existing lore and story elements they can use and continue
>they can use harrison ford again
>people will be interested in watching it to compare it to prequels and the originals
all of these are facts pulled from my ass

>>people will be interested in watching it to compare it to prequels and the originals
So it's wanted, then. You could have just admitted I was right.

>captcha was a stop sign

They're in a fucking merchant outpost controlled by a mafia that rules many systems. The Empire presence is just a token one. The bounty hunter hired to talk to him is employed by the boss of said mafia.

>tfw the old EU skywalkers make rey look like a literal shit-tier jedi in comparison

people being interested in a movie after it was announced that they were creating it is different from wanting a movie to be made
fuck, even captcha is telling you to stop

who was stronger?
EU Luke or Revan?

>original in 1977

Not that user, but:

How, exactly? Lucas was inspired by the pulpy material of his youth, sci-fi and adventure serials that ran in theaters before there was TV. Stuff like Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon.

The most original part of Star Wars was the special effects techniques and the other behind the scenes stuff like costume design, sound direction, and the only thing that prevented it from being DOA was his wife's editing (which changed the pacing of movies forever - back then, it was breakneck).

Space Wizards and Save the Galaxy plots have been a part of science fiction and especially space operas since their inception. George, the other talented people working with him, and his wife, made it a hit that was bigger than a niche audience.

That's really their greatest triumph. They reached a bunch of people who didn't even know they liked this sort of thing.

Fuck you for hating Will Arnett. You're the cancer killing comedy, Fuck you.

>implying interest or desire are always evident
>has never heard the phrase "the X you never knew you wanted"

>KOTOR2 was probably just some unrelated script Obsidian had lying around that they retooled for Star Wars.
Man, you got that back to front. It's obviously Kotor 1 that's a stock standard Bioware D&D game with the Star Wars license thrown in after most of the plot and quests were done.

Is there anything worse than Obsidiandrones?
CDPRdrones, maybe.

>I killed them.
>And not just the men.
>But the women, and the children too.
>They're animals.
>And I hate them!

>The most original part of Star Wars was the special effects techniques and the other behind the scenes stuff like costume design, sound direction, and the only thing that prevented it from being DOA was his wife's editing (which changed the pacing of movies forever - back then, it was breakneck).
While specific elements of the story were done before, like space travel or knights dueling for honor or whatever, they were never put together in a single story the way they did with Star Wars. It took a medieval fantasy story and put it in space, managed to mix saber duels with weapons of planetary destruction, dogfights and high speed space chases.
It was an entirely original experience.

Didn't EU Luke create a black hole or some stupid shit like that?

Before the Legends shit and back when most of the EU was canon to a degree, Lucas stated that the most powerful character ever in that universe was Sheev.

EU Luke was basically space Jesus, and his latest descendant can literally fucking revive and heal people with the force.

The combat is broken
The game is incomplete
It's buggy
Feels more like a fanfiction than a Star Wars story
No sense of atmosphere, most planets are pretty empty and mapped out poorly

It was alright but the original KOTOR felt like it was trying to give you the full Star Wars adventure experience while Obsidian only gave a fuck about their plot

>Spinning that's a good trick!

I'm suddenly no longer sad that the EU was wiped clean.

Isn't he just marking out what is CGI and what isn't?

Why do those people look so confused?

Because he's going full retard with the CGI

The EU was an absolute mess brah
It getting declared non-canon in mass was just a matter of time.

Lemme guess, you've never actually watched the Buster Crabbe Flash Gordon serials.

I'd recommend them, but they're really long, and kind of bloated from episode to episode. They also probably won't appeal to people used to flashier special effects.

I will however, concede that the tradfan story structure bit might have a bit more weight.

Dude he's like triple fisting fucking highlighters, he looks like a moron.

Also

Because of how into it he is getting.

Literally smashing his head on the board about it.

Now that I think about it, the PTs did have a shitton of CGI. I remember some user posting webms of stuff like the palace scenes and it all looked so weird... not sure how I didn't notice it when watching the first time though.

No George, that's not how story markers work!

I don't have memes to counter that so I'll concede

No Mara Jade or qt TIE-fus though
Life is suffering.

>Lemme guess, you've never actually watched the Buster Crabbe Flash Gordon serials.
Actually I've watched a few, and the fact you're even comparing them to Star Wars makes me doubt you have. They were ridiculous low budget productions with inconsequential stories about archetypes and I'm being generous here.

That said. Many things from the EU are alive and well. Thrawn and living Maul are the ones that come to mind now.

I'm just wondering how you missed:

>swordfights
>space wizards
>planet destroying weapons
>rocket ship dogfights
>chases
>etc.

And that's just from the Mars one.

And yes, they're low budget productions that re-used props, sets, and costumes from other serials and even movies.

Lucas however, loved this kind of schlock.

>shit on anakin's lightsaber skills, who had previously been considered the greatest lightsaber user in the entire galaxy
>pushed over an AT-AT along with absorbing cannon blasts from it
>created and sustained a fucking black hole
>talked to crystals with the force
>tanked direct force lightning hits
>created force blasts that were basically gold flames
>basically a master of any and all force techniques

Good fucking lord

This is what happens when you let fans fanwank.

Who is this? He makes Starkiller sound like a well written character.

>because it exposed his established morality as black and white and helped break that mold by dwelling mostly in gray area, something lucas can't stand.

That's ludicrous. KOTOR 2 and the rest of the Star Wars Universe is BASED upon Light/Dark, Black/White morailties due to the dualistic nature of the Force. Canonwise there cannot be a "gray area".

What the fuck are you all talking about? There are only 2 Star Wars movies.

EU Luke.
And like in MTG with Urza, fanwriters get away with this shit.

I watched the finale on stream with Cred Forums and needless to say, no matter how much it happened, I couldn't stop laughing.

I didn't think they'd do it again, but there they go, flying off in a fucking pair. Oh look, they're actually flying around searching for them, might as well give them dick searchlights to make the job easier. Oh god, he tried to do it and he fell to his death.

When you think it's over, it never is, not as long as they live.

But we have Fioni, killer of waifus & husbandos. Everybody's fucked now.

2 movies and a holiday special.

>Be professional storyboarder
>Spend hours of your life working to masterfully and accurately convey ideas
>Some monkey spends less than a second doodling on it with three highlighters in two seconds

I'd be upset and confused too

What is he doing exactly? I know shit about storyboarding so it really looks like he's just doodling over it.

Marking out what is/isn't cgi.

You really couldn't spare one second to read the quoted post before asking?

It's just that the way he is doing it is so weird that I still wasn't sure.

Caravan of Courage and Battle for Endor?

Some asshole from accounting told him they made a giant coloring book for him, so he rushed to the storyboard and started fucking it up. Everyone just stared at him nervously, too afraid to say anything about it.

Someone still have the kyle katarn memes?
God those were gold

...

>it made him a shitload of money so he can't hate it
No, user, you are the jews.

>Goddamn my beard is pure sex

Post them all user
This shit is (g)old

>>shit on anakin's lightsaber skills, who had previously been considered the greatest lightsaber user in the entire galaxy
>''If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters.''

...did you even play KotOR II?

But his lesson of strength was great. Also great was when you break his will

>gives an opinion on someone else's writing
>your

fucking die

>generic space bitch
Shut the fuck up about my waifu, you carpet-lover
Mad enough to reply four hours later

>But his lesson of strength was great. Also great was when you break his will
I prefer Kreia's Lesson of Stength, desu
Breaking his will was a good scene for a Dark Sider, though, as is the suicide pact you can enter into.

Masterpieces.

A miserable little pile of midichlorians

Greedo?

>he has a notepad with saved shitposts
>he probably has a pastebin just in case
>it's probably backed up on his google docs account
>he keeps photoshop open just in case he needs to remove (you)s when he's caught samefagging

On the other hand Obi-Wan casually cut off that alien thug's arm and that is A-okay apparently.

Obi-Wan always was kind of a dick.

Fuck you, of course it's ok, you Islamophobic piece of shit.

>The problem with the films is that they don't have exposition time
yeah they couldn't have just cut the romance plot or any of the other exposition discussions.

>the other exposition discussions.

It's hilariously noticeable when George Lucas is directing. See both A New Hope and the prequels; both have all these pointless bits of absurd exposition, like Luke just splurging out some nonsense about going to to pick up .

>built up to be this incredible power
>2 shot him

>...did you even play KotOR II?

Yes I did. See the Alignment Meter in the image from KOTOR 2? Does it have and contain more than TWO alignments other than Light or Dark Sides? No.

That's the thing though. Nihilus could devour planets, but his power was a hollow, worthless thing. He was chained to that "power". Couldn't even exist without it.

Scion as well. Scion was just a shattered meatbag held together by hatred. He'd conquered death, only to be shackled and manipulated by the very hate that allowed him to continue living well past his expiration date.

For all their supposed "greatness", Scion and Nihilus were pathetic fools who had ultimately become monsters held together only by their evil and the Force. I don't know, or even agree with Kreia that the Force was "controlling them" or if their destiny had always been to become like that as a result of the Force... but either way, they were no longer men, and they were certainly not free.

The gray area is right there in the middle, user.

>One of the game's themes is that morality isn't as simple as black or white
>Game gives you benefits for going full moralfag or total edgemaster
>Blocks off content if you're 'too grey'

>It's hilariously noticeable when George Lucas is directing. See both A New Hope and the prequels; both have all these pointless bits of absurd exposition, like Luke just splurging out some nonsense about going to to pick up .
Tosche Station to pick up some power converters, you philistine!

Grey Jedi are right in the middle, user, and yes, the game does acknowledge it.
Also, the other user was right in that the entire game in an examination of morality in the Star Wars universe, and the problems of it.

>''To make yourself a slave to a teaching or belief, that makes it so that belief will always rule you.''
>''To believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it. It is a lesson no Sith, or Jedi, has ever truly learned.''

The only content you miss out on is unlocking Visas and Prestige Classing, and through the course of the story you should earn more than enough alignment to do both and then bring yourself back to neutral instead of just alternating decisions so you stay grey from the start.

Worst bit about KotOR2, honestly. I don't get why they did it like that.

Maybe a mishandled attempt at giving choices consequences.

To be fair, he was holding the entire ship together, starving, and weakened by his first attempt to eat the Exile. He might even have been saddened by Visas Marr's betrayal.

>Not understanding that Kreia's philosophy was just as flawed as simplistic light=good, dark=bad shit

Seriously, they even bring up that not choosing, not committing is a choice in and of itself and inaction doesn't do nearly as much as taking a stand. APATHY IS DEATH

talking about the exile

Yeah but standing the middle, the center, whatever morally isn't the same as never taking a stand or being 100% netural in all matters. It's like the false claim that all centrists in politics are filthy neutrals who never have opinions. Standing in the middle of the spectrum (whatever it may be) is not the same as standing outside of it; you simply don't subscribe to either of the two extremes (if you want to call them that) but rather act according to your own convictions/centrist ideology.

>Best visual design of the sith lords
>Iconic mask
>Never see his face, never hear anything resembling a human voice him; nothing breaks the 'greater-than-man' hype they set up for him bar the fight itself
>The entire run up to him, big empty runway with mindless husks of minions running the ship while his foreboding quiet theme song that's been haunting you the entire time since you entered his ship

Nihilus was da bes

Sorry. All I see is a slight pink hue in the middle, not gray user.

Utilizing the morality system by mixing and fusing Light/Dark Side actions to achieve an imagined "gray balance" is fictional. You're still applying pre-determined ethical (i.e Black and White) choices in the game. Rationally, it's more akin of a White Pawn in Chess, moving from a White to Black Area DEPENDING on the Player's Choice out of 'Convinence' and 'Strategy' which also applies to KOTOR's game mechanics.

Another argument is that the Alignment Meter in the KOTOR games can easily be reduced into a simple mathmatical equation:

Equate the Light as a singular value = 1. The Dark Side also totals as a singular number = 1 (since they are distinct and seperate entities). What happens when you add these numerical values together to get an EXACT total? The answer is '2' and always will be. There is NO 3rd Path in the Force.

>Game gives you benefits for going full moralfag or total edgemaster

Due to the Binary Nature of the Force. There is no unique, mysterious Gray Force Powers in the Star Wars Universe.

>Grey Jedi are right in the middle

They're called "Gray Jedi" because they don't adhere to the Jedi Code. Not of an "mythical" 3rd Path.

>yfw Revan is canon good and Exile is canon evil

But he doesn't want to look like a faggot

What rustles my jimmies is that I can't be a dick without getting dark side points.

Obi-Wan is a complete dick but also one of the best jedi around. With all the dumb shit he pulls he should be way down on the dark side of the spectrum in a KotOR game.

I agree, but in the confines of the story, a neutral path wouldn't work. As it stands one of the themes is railing against the Jedi and Sith, with Kreia being Avellone's mouthpiece. However, I think a lot of people missed out on the idea that Kreia isn't necessarily right in how she views the light and dark. Jolee is a "grey" jedi that is ultimately lightsided in his actions. My opinion of the ideas presented in the storyline is that there are degrees of lightside and darkside, having a neutral path isn't exactly possible with that being a central idea. Granted, I might be completely fucking wrong since I haven't played in years.

Death Star.

Why did Darth Nihilus spare Visas Marr?

I guess it boils down to the system being very difficult to handle in a game where your choices are already set up for you with specific outcomes in mind.

Being a grey jedi still means going light side but to get there you need to act like a goody two shoes; ie in the generic good guy jedi way. I just wish they were more flexible in how they handed out dark side and light side points.

Returning to one of my earlier points; if Obi-Wan can be a dick and still light-side, why can't it?

To be fair, that is the writer's fault. I mean, sarcastic, douche dialogue options shouldn't mean you're dark sided. You could argue that it is due to letting your emotions or want to prick at other people get the better of you but still, RPGS have always had a bad case of being either Jesus or Snidely fucking Whiplash.

Wouldn't you want a qt apprenticefu?

>Darth Nihilus just wanted a qt apprentice to share the galaxy with
>you take her from him
Nihilus had a hard life

>No flash porno with a Mira, Handmaiden and Visas threesome

Revan and the Exile. The OTP that never came to pass-

>lured to Katarr, just wanted to make friends
>finds a qt apprentice, decides he'll look after her
>you take her away
>Goes to Telos, just wants to make friends
>Storm his ship and straight up murder him
[unintelligible whispers intensifies]

The lack of quality r34 for this game is suffering.
>tfw because of cut content there will never be an opportunity for an Exile/Handmaiden/Visas/Mira/Atris harem
Thanks a lot, Lucasarts.

>Obi-Wan is a complete dick but also one of the best jedi around.

Examples?

So Atton raped that Jedi right?

Maybe. It's not clear.

PURE PAZAAK

>Maybe. It's not clear.
You know what's clear? Fuck Atton, Mira all the way.

Play star wars obiwan