There's nothing inherently wrong with Caesar's Legion's doctrine

there's nothing inherently wrong with Caesar's Legion's doctrine

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There's nothing "inherently" wrong with anything if you're a philosophy major or a fedora tipper.

Yeah, it's the application that is wrong so the applied form needs to be eliminated.

They have slavery. That's objectively wrong.

Caesar is doing nothing exceptionally evil, he's merely conquering stuff with a bunch of fellas he got really fired up about it. Their actual problem is the succession of Caesar.

Legion is not built to last like NCR, they want to assimilate tribals and destroy the savage and raider identity while also destroying the NCRs reliance on technology and consumption just like the government before the war

Then they will crumble like Rome

...

No but when Caeser dies, the Legion will go to shit
So it's not a wise investment

the tortured and slaughtered those who opposed his regime
that's objectively wrong
stupid caeserfag

*they
fuck, i suck at typing.

Great post fellow intellectual!

I too believe that Caesars legion have an attainable and sustainable goal and will not immediately collapse.

Great to see fellow intellectual philosophers on this board for once!

I look forward to seeing you and having a great and length internet discussion with you tonight on Cred Forums! Add me on skype my user name is "DapperGentlemanGamer"

Is it?

Which Caesar is aware of

>NCR
>Last
No its pretty much going toward the same end as the last america did.

They're just a lesser evil. Arizona is a horrible place, but with them in charge there's some stability. Instead of getting robbed, raped and eaten by cannibal raiders, you can submit to authority and be protected. It might not be a very good faction, but it's difficult to achieve anything ideal in the wasteland.

yeah and the ncr just roll in and kill whoever opposes them, so much more nicer, right

fucking Legionnaire

Yes.

>Objective morality

Slavery is wrong, torturing captives needlessly and then crucifying them or putting their heads on spikes is wrong. Sorry Caesar

>muh slavery is wrong meme

play some deus ex you'll realise we're all slaves

>Screenshot
I'm pretty sure it isn't.

>Slavery is wrong
>Torturing captives needlessly is wrong
>Crucifying them is wrong
>Putting their heads on spikes is wrong.
I agree with you, but something your dumb objective morality fags don't understand is you have to be able to answer the question "Why?".

You need an actual fucking basis for saying something's wrong, or else you may as well just be saying "I don't like it." or "I don't like the concept.".

Hot fucking opinions, good for you.

Why the fuck is it factually *wrong* though? Can you actually tell me, or anyone the answer? Or do you just believe in whatever morality you think you're supposed to without thinking about it like a fucking sheep?

Why are they wrong?

If you think about it in an utilitarian way, maximizing your enemies' suffering is the way to go if your goal is to exterminate them. It does wonders to your enemy's morale when their friends' heads are on spikes in front of the fort they are trying to take over.

"the weak should fear the strong".

-sam hyde.

>unironically quoting a mass shooter
Wow man, I tip my fedora to you.

youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A

It's okay to enslave stagnant people who were never going to progress on their own anyway.

The pyramids were built by slaves. Those slave would have just been lazy jack offs if the egyptions hadn't whipped them into shape. And no one blames modern eygiptions for it. There is no "ejiption guilt" for all the slaving they did.

>The pyramids were built by slaves.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
SHUT
THE FUCK
UP
YOU UNEDUCATED MEMER

Caesar's Legion is grounded in a gross misunderstanding of how Rome worked. What Caesar did was build a cult of personality around himself; he doesn't let the lower ranks have proper weapons even if they're available because that would the gap between Caesar and them shorter, weakening the illusion that he's untouchable.

Pic related is from Josh Sawyer's blog where he still answers questions about anything from Icewind Dale to PoE.

>mfw archeologists uncovered records of pyramid workers setting up a strike because they weren't provided with enough suncream

humanity was always comedy gold

You sound like the most uneducated person in the thread, to be quite honest, frankly.

Here, let me spell it out for you since you're too stupid to think for it yourself
Slavery
>eliminates large amounts of would-be income generating citizens to menial tasks that does little for the economic and technological advancement of the legion
>inevitable and unpredictable slave revolts can and will cripple the legion at the most inopportune time
>slaves require constant maintenance if to perform at peak performance to counteract downsides, which can be performed by the individual themselves if they were self-employed
>limited in use and function, as slaves can never be trusted for important tasks for risk of sabotage
>self-interest, banning slaver greatly decreases the chance of you becoming a slave, either by chance or by actions of your enemy

Torture, Crucifiction, Head on Spike
>aggravates diplomatic connections with potential allies, forcing the legion to act alone
>raises importance and power of unstable sadistic fucks that is liable to perform actions that negatively affect the legion in favor of personal satisfaction
>there are more efficient, hygienic and effective means of demoralizing enemies besides those crude methods

>Caesar's Legion is grounded in a gross misunderstanding of how Rome worked.
Nowhere does Sawyer (or indeed, Caesar) state that. I was actually afraid it would be the case before I played the game but nope, it's much more sensible. Caesar chose Roman symbols because they 're largely alien to the rest of the wasteland. The faction is called "Legion" because it doesn't represent Roman society or anything like that. The point was to erase tribal societies and to replace them with a monoculture.

I wish people who never did a legion playthrough would stop posting in these threads.

that sounds an awful lot like the usual wishful thinking denial you often see IRL though

I meant it in the sense that it's shallow. Caesar probably know that what he's doing isn't in line with what the real Julius Caesar did at all, or how Rome functioned because he's a smart man. The common members of the Legion however use roman symbols and names without understanding what they actually are and what they mean.

Edward Sallow aka the guy who became Caesar got the idea from books about the actual roman republic/empire. These books are the foundation of Caesar's plan for the Wasteland, they're what inspired him to actually go do it properly.

>THE LEGION WON'T SURVIVE BECAUSE NEITHER DID ROME LOL
>CEASER ISN'T ACTUALLY LEADING HIS LEGION LIKE ROME WAS LED THEY ARE DOOMED LOL

at least stick to one you disgusting ncr scum

didn't he ad-lib the first victories thanks to his knowledge of tactics etc? finding a template was what happened later, once he realised the need for it

Did you even do a legion playthrough so youd have an idea what Caesar was actually planning? You either didnt listen to anything he said or you never even talked to him at the numerous points you can ask him stuff while going through the legion path.

>The common members of the Legion however use roman symbols and names without understanding what they actually are
That is the intention, I believe. They aren't supposed to have an in-depth understanding of Roman history. They're supposed to follow Caesar's word and use the symbols and beliefs they're provided with.

If we are slaves, then we can't enslave someone else. :^)

>People actually pretend to support Legion
>Even though a lot of Legion content was cut
>Even though the devs didn't have time to fix them and turn them into a worthwhile faction.
Legion is shit. The top 2 factions of the game should be difficult to choose between. Everyone goes against legion because they're written terribly your first encounter with them amounts to "we're razed this town, rounded up it's inhabitants and totured/crucified them because we disagree with them and we're apparently not in a war with NCR and have men to spare".

You mean his talk about the Colorado River being his Rubicon and New Vegas being his Rome?

Yeah, Caesar himself is pretty dead set on making what he himself would like to consider a new roman empire. Caesar holds himself to a way higher standard than the regular legionnaires but he's fully aware of what a bastardised version of the real Rome his legion is.

jesawyer.tumblr.com/

Here's Sawyer's blog, by the way.

>eliminates large amounts of would-be income generating citizens to menial tasks that does little for the economic and technological advancement of the legion

Slavery has its limits, but there's a reason why it's used for menial labour, for something anyone can do. Giving someone a bed in a hall and a bit of food and shitty clothes costs very little compared to the normal labour costs.

>inevitable and unpredictable slave revolts can and will cripple the legion at the most inopportune time

That's a management issue.

>slaves require constant maintenance if to perform at peak performance to counteract downsides, which can be performed by the individual themselves if they were self-employed

That comes down to how you use and treat them. It's still going to be more cost effective.

>limited in use and function, as slaves can never be trusted for important tasks for risk of sabotage

The entire point of slavery is to use them for shitty and dangerous labour to free up citizens for other tasks. Your point is moot.

>self-interest, banning slaver greatly decreases the chance of you becoming a slave, either by chance or by actions of your enemy

Circumstantial.

>aggravates diplomatic connections with potential allies, forcing the legion to act alone

Choose your allies and people who you want relations better. Also circumstantial because not all countries need to have diplomatic relations with every country. For example it's possible to have only one bordering neighbour or to be geographically isolated.

>raises importance and power of unstable sadistic fucks that is liable to perform actions that negatively affect the legion in favor of personal satisfaction

Your bias is of "objective morality" is showing.

>there are more efficient, hygienic and effective means of demoralizing enemies besides those crude methods

That's like saying you shouldn't drink water, because there's milk. Heads on a spike are very cost effective and work.

Of all the shitty arguments i have heard in favor of The Legion. I hate these two the most since it's so fucking retarded.
>what The Legion is doing is not so bad in a post-apocalyptic world.
this would be a good argument if not for the reason that the NCR exists. it's the equivalent of having some shit stain war tribe in Africa compared to Africa.It's the same as supporting ISIS.
>look at what NCR like ruling got us, a nuclear apocalypse.i'm not falling for that again.
And what exactly happened to the Roman Empire? crumbled from over expansion from tribes that are not really loyal to them, which is exactly what Caesar had been doing.The only reason there's no Fallout in Roman times is because atomic bombs haven't been invented yet.

what is this republican nonsense

go back to bringing freedom and liberty to talibs

He has no intention of making a rome. He literally could give two shits about old rome. He is trying a new path, not copying some old dead one that failed a thousand years ago.

>name character August 88
>sick ass revolver and cowboy hat
>Shoot Benny in his stupid head, take his suit
>This Vulpes guy is my kinda dude
>Meet Caesar
>Fascism boner
>help him subvert the NCR and claim hoover dam
>he dies
>I kill Lanius
>hold his empire of savages together
>rule from New Vegas
>Pax Romana

r8 my headcanon

traders prefer trading in legion territory because it's the safest. it's not some crime ridden shit hole with legionnaires doing whatever they want. it's not like isis or fucking niggers in africa

the roman empire was also the longest lasting and probably greatest empire in the history of this planet. wanting to model your civilization after that doesn't seem like a bad idea

>We have cities of our own, but nothing compared to Vegas. Finally, my Legion will have its Rome. My conquest of the Mojave will be a glorious triumph, marking the transition of the Legion from a basically nomadic tribe to a genuine empire.
>I used imperial Rome as the model for my Legion precisely because it was so foreign, so alien. '
>Rome was a highly militarized autocracy that effectively integrated the foreign cultures it conquered. It dedicated its citizens to something higher than themselves - to the idea of Rome itself. In Rome I found a template for a society equal to the challenges of the post-apocalyptic world - a society that could and would survive. A society that could prevent mankind from fracturing and destroying itself in this new world, by establishing a new Pax Romana. It means a nationalist, imperialist, totalitarian, homogenous culture that obliterates the identity of every group it conquers. Long-term stability at all costs. The individual has no value beyond his utility to the state, whether as an instrument of war, or production.

Caesar is a pompous, incompetent cunt with no plan whatsoever in place who only came in power due to facing literal "oogabooga me throw rock" level tribes, and he himself doesn't really realize that his people apart from maybe Vulpes doesn't really follow the ideal of Rome. People follow his cult of personality and nothing else. He himself knows that he is dying, yet he doesn't even have a proper succession plan in place. Legate Lanius is his named successor, despite Caesar himself also realizing that Lanius couldn't take care of the Legion for shit and he's only useful as a battlefield commander. His long-term plans for the future are never elaborated upon, unlike for example House's immortal autocracy or NCR's democratic selection process, or Independent's case of Courier just stealing House's plan and tech.

>prancing around in skirts
>establishing torture camps wherever you go
>imprisoning civilians and selling them off as slaves
>razing entire villages to the ground and crucifying the inhabitants

They're nothing more than a bunch of savage degenerates that like to fuck each other in the ass, running around a desert wearing skirts and chucking spears at trading caravans.

I didn't read too much into what was planned for the Legion, but as it stands you have to be a pretty edgy teenager to think that even half of what they're doing is somehow justified and / or not completely hypocritical.

If what got cut made it into the game you would've seen that the Legion settlements had citizens who were comfortable with the peace that the Legion established, since almost everything is punished by death

It is basicly fucking Rome

>>imprisoning degenerates and selling them off as slaves
>>razing entire degenerate villages to the ground and crucifying the degenerates
fixed

and there's literally nothing wrong with that

Yeah, when in comparison to small warring tribes and Fiends-tier raiders everywhere the Legion is indeed an objective improvement, but that isn't really saying much. Even the only non-Legion folk who laud some of the Legion's doings like Raul and the trader agree they're pretty needlessly harsh towards the common folk, like the example of Lanius flipping out at brahmin. The trader in particular isn't really in a good spot to criticize Legion anyways.

The Legion is nothing like Rome. They're just a bunch of cosplaying pussies.
The NCR is more like Rome than Caesar's wannabes.

I filled the outside areas of the game world with random and non-random locations from Google Maps. There would have been space for several legion settlements on the Arizona's side of the river.

>Glory Hole
>Dolan Springs
I know they're actual, real places, but they get me every time.

Why?

>eliminates large amounts of would-be income generating citizens
In Fallout's universe this is true. In real life, it is not.

>due to facing literal "oogabooga me throw rock" level tribes
lol

he was left for dead among a bunch of warring tribes and he managed to lead one of them to conquer all the rest without being physically strong or armed with anything but his knowledge

you're making it sound like it's not impressive in any way

They seem brutal in methods until you consider the future of the Wasteland. This is why the only endings that would benefit the Wasteland in the long run is Legion and MAYBE NCR

An Independent Vegas is too unstable unless it is implied that you can control everything with the Securitrons, and even then, there are many factions with their own interests that will eventually clash with eachother

NCR has too much problems with itself

House only cares about Vegas

If you ask me which faction would last longer if it occupied the entire Wasteland then the Legion would be the only one that could do it, with the right leadership they will have all the peace they want within their walls

Not him, but that frustrates the living shit out of me. So much of legions story is interesting and well written and then they go and cock it up by making them complete edgelords.
Which is valid until you consider NCR is making progress without crucifying people for differing views and enslaving others. Furthermore, NCR controls more, has more infrastructure and still runs it efficiently while fighting legion. I dislike NCR but they would definitely last longer than legion, which is made apparent when you kill Caesar.

Point was that while Caesar's personal accomplishments and coming into power makes sense in the East, he is a hopeless idealist who also believes that he is capable of creating a long-lasting society superior to NCR or House's. House is objectively the superior choice compared to Legion since like Caesar, he eliminates the weakness of democracy, while also eliminating Caesar's main weakness of questionable successors, plus without the total renunciation of perks like useful tech.

>They seem brutal in methods until you consider the future of the Wasteland.
>If you ask me which faction would last longer if it occupied the entire Wasteland then the Legion would be the only one that could do it, with the right leadership they will have all the peace they want within their walls
But there is no future in the Legion. Excessively brutal methods only go so far when you haven't got a system that ensures capable future rulers, as Caesar's cult of personality is the sole reason people follow him in the first place. Savage Lanius who doesn't even care about the Legion of all the people is his named successor, despite Caesar being terminally ill and close to death.
>An Independent Vegas is too unstable unless it is implied that you can control everything with the Securitrons
That is very much implied. Instead of trying to raise support both Yes Man and House say their upgraded Securitrons will be able to assert absolute power and build up Vegas after both Legion and NCR tire themselves fighting each other and fuck off. Yes Man in particular insinuates that with your Wasteland politicking you're not solidifying your power base as much as you're picking factions that you personally like having around.

Not to mention that Lonesome Road mentions the fact that NCR would have actually totally annihilated the Legion after their first battle if not for the Divide's nukes suddenly destroying their main supply line, allowing the Legion to recover.

>House is objectively the superior choice compared to Legion
House only cares about Vegas. He isn't looking to establish the new civilization beyond that or whatever.

That's why I chose them. Truth is stranger than fiction. Peek-a-boo canyon sounds pretty stupid too. And I'm pretty sure that "Pahrump" is the sound that a Horrible Dorn Beast makes.

>House only cares about Vegas.
One of the ending slides if you don't completely eliminate the Fiends mention House's securitrons killing the rest of them, meaning he's at least interested in keeping a stable power base in the Mojave region as a whole. Plus, unlike other main factions his plans isn't over-extension or total world conquest and he's willing to peacefully deal with other nations like the NCR assuming they're not actively trying to conquer his turf.

Fiends attack Westside, which kind of is a part of Vegas.

I really wish Obsidian would've had more time to make F:NV and it's DLC's.