Are Japanese developers just better at combat than Western developers

every great action game with a sublime combat system tends to be of Japanese origin

DMC 3, Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden: Black, Vanquish, Resident Evil 4 etc etc.

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Yes.

The simple answer is that their design philosophies differ from western studios. Theirs are more about the technicality of gameplay while western studios focus on GRAFIX and CINEMATIC STORYTELLING

yes. no contest. inb4 underages start coming into the thread spouting "weeb!" without even knowing what it means.

yes because they are actually concerned with making fun mechanics that 'feel' good to play when you've mastered them

western games are always just concerned with the story and stuff

When it comes to action games like that, absolutely. The japs understand a key component that the west does not: speed. It's all about the speed of what you can do and how fast you can do it. They also embrace stuff like canceling to do moves even faster or in combination with other moves that normally wouldn't execute properly. The west fails to understand that having a fancy animation that's ten hours long is much less satisfying that making your own cool string of combos.

Western combat tends to be firearms focused and thus leads to most games being FPS/TPS.
You never see many Japanese FPS games, and the few TPS I've played have been pretty janky.

Action combat unlike any other requires and demands autistic focus, unrelenting polish of the basic features and sense of craft.

You can't just throw 10 grunts with game design diplomas and expect cohesive combat system design.

That's why western publisher love open world game so much -- they can use the sheer human power of their developers masses to place collectibles on a huge map instead of waiting until one autist spends a full year polishing and tinkering combat.

I think this speaks for itself.

First-person shooters are action games too, user. And god knows japs can't into FPS

Before kikes realized there was profit to be milked form the Vidya industries Westerners were doing a decent job at making vidya then Bobby kotick and EA happened .

No one in the west gives a fuck about video games anymore just money.

Actually a good observation I hadn't thought of
Guns are what's wrong with America after all

Not a clue why or how, does seem to be a mere handful of Japs who get it.

And not a single westerner. Closest they got to a complex action game worth playing was DmC, and word on the street was that Capcom had to interfere with the combat to make it playable. Which, after playing Ninja Theory's other games, I can believe.

Not to mention that they're the ones carrying on Blue Sky's legacy fucking as well, the old school RPG genre well alive on that tiny island.

I'm no weeb, I don't suck Jap dick for fun. But I can express sheer fucking disappointment in the West, can't I?

Yes.

>I DON'T THINK OUR COMBAT SYSTEM IS AS GOOD AS DEVIL MAY CRY'S

This. The west has not yet realized that how a game plays has a lot of impact on how good it is. American finance CEO types fail to see gameplay as a concrete thing that can be good or bad, because you can't see it.

>Combat Systems
>Only lists Third Person Slashy Slashies

Funny how "the best combat" games happen to be the only things to play on the nip console your mother bought you as a kid.

"modulation" is not japanese exclusive term

it comes from hand-drawn animation, the foundation of which was established by Disney studios men:
youtube.com/watch?v=y2vCko6V4pQ

The problem is not a language barrier, but a mere ignorance and illiteracy.

To do satisfying action you need to know how to:

1. SHOW action. For that you need to have deep intimacy with animation, film staging (how to set up camera and how it should behave to make action readable). See:
youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ

2. SOUND. Sound is probably the aspect where western publisher can keep up. EVEN THEN they are still largely illiterate how to make distinct sound cues for incoming enemy attack for example. They are still in the phase where need to have visual UI that attack is coming (see Batman games). It's something japanese action games have done and left behind in 2003 wtih Viewtiful Joe games.

3. CONTROLS. Western publisher have yet to evolve into the basic understanding on how to make fast controls past just aping what worked in some other game.

4. ENEMY DESIGN. Not just AI, but also how enemies work in groups and how their behavior meshes against player character's moveset.

Spiderman Web of Shadows combat was slick

You've never played any of the games he listed have you? I'm kind of wondering if you even read the list.

what's your argument?

he never played Ninja Gaiden on Xbox

That RTSs and FPSs have inherntly better combat than your favorite console games.

So you only know skyrim melee combat only ?

Condemned more like.

Hold on everybody, we've got an expert in the thread

A very satisfying western brawler believe it or not is The Warriors by Rockstar. Holy shit, considering it's a western game that's a license and by a company that's trash at hand to hand? That game fucking nailed unarmed combat to perfection. Punching somebody in the face, dodging perfectly, or grabbing a dude by the face and tossing them felt awesome and heavy.

We're talking about satisfying combat where you have direct control over a single character though. You can count FPS games like Fear and Bulletstorm but RTS games are satisfying for different reasons.

Then maybe other genres should try and increase the complexity of their combat systems, but they never ever ever do.

>Racing games have been the same since 1996
>FPS games have been the same and keep getting downgraded. Only this gen are we getting 2 skills to use along with slow movement + aim precisely shit.
>Wrpgs have various systems but nearly all are 1989 level shit. Look at skyrim. You can't even walk backwards out of range
>Jrpgs focus more on letting you jump through hoops to hit enemies for more damage
>actionrpgs focus more on using "skills" that are single use actions that cannot be combined. The "deepest" it gets are parries.
>stealth games keep using the same formula with "ghosting" being the ideal.
>hack n' slash (the diablo type) never become more than repetitive loot collecting and crafting simulators.
>MMOs have been using the same "cooldown" infested skills that prevent any form of technicality and are also loot simulators
>fighting games experiment within the confines of a limited vision, but nothing is being done to make it grow beyond what sf2 established.

There are exceptions, but those are hardly used as a baseline for further games in that genre. Take FFXV. It wants to go full over the top action, but it ignores a lot of action game progress that has been made in the previous decade.
There is no genre besides spectacle brawlers that has 90% of the games reach a certain level of complexity that have you go through experimentation and practice to be able to do new things.

STEP YOUR GAME UP

The problem is that FPS (and TPS) can't reach the same gameplay depth that melee-based games.

An act of shooting allows only for two outcomes -- either you hit the the target, or you don't. If you hit the enemy, it either explodes into gibs or gets some number decreased from it's HP pool. This is a very limiting binary outcome.

Just increasing damage numbers on the weapons only makes it even more simplistic.

What is the difference between clicking left mouse button on that particular pixel denoting monster's bodypart? Depending if you picked weapon 1, weapon 2, weapon 3, or weapon 4 monster get's different amount of HP depleted.

Changing the ways how projectile flies (grenades, mines) slows down the action which is the exact opposite of what you need.

FPS/TPS camera also severely limits
1. the view
2. movement options -- what's the point of dashing mechanic if most likely you can't see what you're dashing into?
3. enemy movement option
4. enemy hit reaction options

Why should I? You learn an enemy attack pattern, attack when it's appropriate, dodge when it's not.

Maybe if I was your age, the fact that you play a ninja would blow my socks off; but I prefer things with a little more mechanical depth than the wide range of orders to press the two attack buttons.

>RTS
>spam units win game

WOOOOOOWWWWWW FUNNNNNNNNNN

Haven't played that one, I'll give it a look.

bait

>FPS/TPS camera also severely limits
>1. the view
>2. movement options -- what's the point of dashing mechanic if most likely you can't see what you're dashing into?
>3. enemy movement option
>4. enemy hit reaction options
These can be worked around with smart design. Saying it's not possible because of some limitations is not a very positive outlook on creating something new.

If you say arena shooters then they're on par with some of the better action games. If you mean cod or CSGO or some shit then nah.

>Play Bayo
>Hammer two buttons while jumping around

jap games so good. i hate complicated things

bait

fps games focus only on positioning and aim. There are some subtle things like how you move, but they hardly provide new forms of play. except shit like quake 3 perhaps.

rts games are obviously interesting but the strategy that they focus on is present in nearly all games. Luring tactics, funneling, setting long range units behind close range units. It's not very special.

Aside from Tenchu, I can't think of any good stealth games made by the Japanese.

I know of one

>These can be worked around with smart design
I am fucking waiting.

The best biggest attempts into adding any kind of depth into the staleness and creative bankruptcy that is TPS/FPS genre were Vanquish (time-slowdown and rocket knees movement, fast weapons switching, movement cancels, grenade tricks) and Splatoon (floor/wall movement), and both are rather still are underwhelming in term of breadth of options compared to bigger action games.

Until proven otherwise i am going to be convinced that this is F/TPS genres inherent deficiency.

In Japan, gameplay is king. The rest of the aspects are supposed back up the gameplay.

The west is the complete opposite to this. The gameplay is actually a hindrance to the rest.

I have trouble thinking of good stealth games, period.

>If you say arena shooters then they're on par with some of the better action games
Even quake 3, as magnificent as it is, doesn't reach 10% of the creative freedom and complexity you have in dmc4. Just because it doesn't have as many actions you can perform. Aiming is almost always a matter of aiming dead on your target, besides grenade launcher and rockets because they are slow moving projectiles, which do provide an element of complexity since you switch to other weapons to do simultaneous attacks, also considering their effect on movement speed, which requires extreme skill in combination with cosntant strafe jumping. strafejumping is obviously an amazing thing that requires dedication and practice, but to reach the level of dmc4, it should have at least 20 more of those kind of tricks that are all be combinable with eachother. That is exactly what I'm missing in other genres.

actions that can be combined with other actions to form action+
action+ that can be combined with other action+ to form action++
action++ that can be combined with other action++ to form action+++
action+++ thatn can be combined with other action+++, action++, or action+ to form action++++
That is dmc4, and no other game has this at a level that comes close to the amount of combinations it has. I'm not even counting the different enemy types that change the timing of how to perform these. There is so much to learn, and practice is rewarded with new types of movement and attacks, opening up new possibilities. It is the ultimate combat system from a creative attack perspective.

I think the issue is Autism

Only an Autist would spend thousands of hours to perfect some shitty video game a bunch of kids will play for a few dozen hours and then forget about

This is something the Japanese naturally excel at given their proud cultural tradition of wasting their lives accomplishing menial tasks for little to no reason other than to make someone else rich and to make some ridiculous product

Also see anime, JAV's, Bonzai Trees, Martial Arts ect...

You seem like a very fat, lazy, white, greasy person.

I am really, really excited to see the wonderful plot and cinematic cutscenes of the next highly anticipated western release, such as Watch_Dogs 2(tm)

Oh wait, nevermind, if that's how you think, then video games are entirely shit and you can just gtfo

Simplest explanation.

Western game devs want players to enjoy the game and will hold their hands just to make it work. In most cases the games just work and you will get to the end. Games in the west are considered more of a relaxing medium for older people to play and enjoy themselves.
A good example of this philosphy would be overwatch.


Eastern Devs are all over the place, and they also have a much larger AA group that allows unsafe decisions. I would say that a large amount of AAA games like nintendoes are incredibly safe and you they hold on with you so you don't fuck up.

Now I can't exactly tell you why games just feel better in the east, but theres probably more dedication and practice put into that and you have more japanese devs sprout up with all those variants.

Simpler explanation is Arcade vs Dungeons and Dragons

Western vidya don't even have their roots in video games

> looks down on people for "wasting their lives"

I am none of these things, nice try tho

Project much?

Please tell me which Japanese game has a "wonderful plot" MGS, Final Fantasy?? Don't think so....Mass Effect alone has a better story than any Japanese game ever made

I also like to think that Japanese developers are better at animating melee attacks than westerners. I heard that for Darksiders 2 the devs just went ahead and copied fighting game animations, because they knew they couldn't do better on their own.

Quake 3 is trash. You can tell they had to speed up quake for it to even try and compete with unreal

Mass Effect 2 is unironically my favorite game of all time and I can tell you for a fact that since you want to play vidya for le story you can get your ass back to literature, video games are not for you.

>Autism butthurt?
>Jap butthurt?

Ah to be 14 again

Only women and gays play vidya for the story

lolwut?

You realize i was responding to another post and not saying that i play vidya for story right?

hmmm...American school system fails again

bait

Right, the Jews did it again.

booorrring.

theres nothing wrong with enjoying a game that has a story carry your interest.

Yes.

They're still better at shooters than the west. EDF 4.1 was the best TPS I've played in years.

Actually, the correct answer is that the Japanese like melee fighting because the samurai era is their proudest in history.

Americans like shooting games because WWI and II are their proudest. Also they have no melee combat history.

Europeans like a mixture of things.

...

Post western games with good combat

Found the faggot, I would call you a woman but they only exist in /cgl/

Poland is full of jews but they gave us the Witcher series

anything well recieved before 2004 I'd say.

Dark Messiah

Shadows of Mordor before the end

>vengeance series

Never played them, as a fan of cuhrayzeee am I missing out? looks bretty fun

>Poland
>Full of Jews

Do you even WW2 dude? Seriously

in all honesty the jewery ruined 3.
Didn't make it bad, but just ruined it.

Jedi Knight games had retarded combat but were kinda fun for me as teenager.

I'd rather not revisit it.

What was ruined about it? I thought it was the best one desu

>mfw I enjoyed a batman creed game

I can't believe how starved we are to accept slightly more gore and a new mechanic.

Shoadow of Morder is literally nothing but Batman combat.

WHAT JAPANESE GAMES EVEN HAVE THE GOOD COMBAT????

PLEASE NAME AT LEAST 6 OF THEM

stuff was spread out way too much with the whole massive open world. They weren't really ready for an open world game, they fucking managed though I'll give you that.

DMC1, DMC3, DMC4, NGB, NG2, Bayo1, Bayo 2 and that's only the most popular ones

SoM felt pretty satisfying fucking up a warlord on higher difficulties, I had to stop myself from cheesing enemies to really enjoy it though

from this year or just in general?

Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition
Devil May Cry 4: Special Edition
Ninja Gaiden 1
Ninja gaiden 2
Bayonetta
Fighters

Extra credit: Metal Gear Rising

DMC1, 3 ,4
MGR
Bayonetta 1, 2
Dragon's Dogma

Batman combat is an automatic disqualification

god of war is the best action series ever made, so no not quite

Well it shows cause Darksiders was a pretty good western action game. The whole customization meme from 2 was totally half-baked but they were getting closer and closer to a more Japanese model for their action, hell 2 had cancelling. If 3 had been made I predict it would have been even better.

>I am fucking waiting.
Alright, let's boogie.

Taking on the FPS one.

>1. the view
Can be solved with:
[A mouse
[Wide FOV, which also makes movement look fast. Ideal for technical action.
[A radar or maybe ace combat style HUD pointers in the direction of an enemy, with various types of pointers for each enemy type.
[Increase the size of player X enemy collision boxes to prevent enemies from blocking the view completely, and if there are melee attacks increase their range so they can still hit the enemies.


>2. movement options -- what's the point of dashing mechanic if most likely you can't see what you're dashing into?
This is more a matter of player skill isn't it?

>3. enemy movement option
Why would the view limit enemy movement options? After fighting enemies multiple times you'd get a general idea of their movement types and patterns, and there are many games with speedy enemies.

>4. enemy hit reaction options
Have various weapon types. Take UT99 weapons. Give those weapons a different stun/launch property and you're golden. You can have the shock rifle's energy ball propell enemies in the opposite direction they're hit from but only in the 4 cardinal directions to make it manageable, Have the Bio goo weapon always throw the enemy downward because of the weight of the Bio sludge. Give the rocket launcher a fire mode that attaches a grenade to the enemy, knocking him away if he hits a wall, ceiling or floor.

Imagine the combo you can do with just these 3 things: Shoot with the shock rifle to knock a guy up, hit him with the grenade, then hit him with the biosludge to knock him into the floor and explode the grenade, follow up with the plasma rifle which might have a gravity reducing effect on the enemy, so you can jump dash into him and melee kick him in the balls, followed by a rocket jump off the enemy.


Maybe you didn't mean this kind of FPS, but I can think of ways to make "realistic" FPS games more interesting as well.

>There will never be a Bayonetta 3
>There will never be a DMC5
>There will never be a Wonderful 102
>There will never be a God Hand 2
>There will never be a Metal Gear Rising 2

lol

I always liked UT99 better than q3 because of the weapon modes. But i love advanced tech like strafejumping. The later UT games didn't do it for me for some reason, even if they were far more complex. dodgejumping to speed up was boring.

I enjoyed it though felt less button mashey

There will never be Vanquish 2

>There will never be a Wonderful 102
This one fucking hurts the most.

Fair enough, good point actually

Happens in a lot of open world games to pad out play time, dont you think? (ie MGS5,FallOut4 ect)

People like to hate on GoW because of how easy the combat seems but on higher difficulties it's no joke

Dude you can't name multiple entries from the same franchise, plus DMC and Ninja Gaiden suck now in their most recent incarnations

No Dark Souls? Am Suprised

What's Fighters?

From the last 5 years

God of War and Darksiders have decent combat. Also Amalur kind of.

For Honor is pretty fucking fun, it's being made by westerners right?

I haven't felt as satisfied in a long time as when I beat the fuck out of a weeb orochi fag

Do you like the taste of cocks

>plus DMC and Ninja Gaiden suck now in their most recent incarnations
Who cares? We're talking about the good games it doesn't detract from the actual games played, plus you can't just go add on stipulations after the fact

>there will never be Streets of Rage 4
Just end me

I don't see how people think this combat is so amazing. It's super fun, but it's hardly complex besides knowing certain kinks of the attacks like turning with the swing, or doing a crouch 180 to hit the enemy with the start of the overhead swing, and then doing another 180 to hit him with the front of it. Fun stuff, but hardly complex or combinable.


DM has some magic stuff that can be combined, but the combinations aren't really combos or something. It's mostly tactical choices like putting ice somewhere and waiting. There aren't many action to do either. Dishonored is more complex in a lot of ways.

Horrible game. No attacks are combinable, cancellable, or in any other way interesting. The most basic of combat systems.

>series
There's only one game. It's kinda shallow and short compared to DMC and Bayo but definitely worth playing.

Dude.

That's because the Japanese aren't afraid to put over the top mechanics in GAMES.

A good example of this already is Yakuza.

It has over the top fights and powerups in a "serious" real world story.

The west is so deep into the "reality" style.

IT'S A GAME.

what ever happened to that pc port.

You played the SOR remake? I really liked it. It's better than 1/2/3.

>half of those are button mashing hack and slashes

yes yes amazing combat

"hinted at"

There is no guarantee, which is sad

>it was a phone the whole time

what
Was he talking to someone on his sword all the time?

Yakuza's combat is not very impressive, even if the style is fun. Ishin was the best as far as I know and even that is not very complex.

I Nominate Valkyria Chronicles for best Vidya of all time

Good job Sega

I'm not actually talking about the combat mechanics of Yakuza. I'm actually just talking about how the West focuses too much in "reality" compared to their Japanese counterparts.

Yeah. They're not afraid to be wacky or over the top with their games. Stuff like the Dead Risings are a good example as well.

IT'S A PHONE?
I'VE PLAYED THROUGH THIS GAME 5 TIMES WHAT THE FUCK HOW DID I NEVER NOTICE THIS

No, but I will give it a try if I find it

Oh. Sorry. I agree actually. Love that money bursting out of enemies in Yakuza 0. Yakuza games are always a laugh.

Call a beat em up buddy if you have one when you do.

>fighting games experiment within the confines of a limited vision, but nothing is being done to make it grow beyond what sf2 established.

Objectively wrong.

>SoR
>not a new Final Fight

I was gonna say Dragons Dogma but its a western inspired jap game.. FUG we're screwed boys.

AND ALONG THE COILS OF LIGHT THE LIFE I DESIIIIREEEE

I would argue that it was ruined by the western influence making it open world, but I would also argue that it's the best open world game because it actually makes the player walk through the world.

See. They still treat it as a game FIRST. Yes there's a serious story and stuff. People will talk about it. But if there's anything to take away from this is that, the gameplay mechanics didn't actually hinder the story being told even though the combat is that way.

I honestly don't know when it started that the West made gameplay 2nd over story.

I think this started then they called games "art".

Nice argument. See you on plebbit

>Taking on the FPS one.
To me there's very little different between TPS and FPS in context of understanding what makes them so unsuitable for deep action. The biggest constraint imo is shooting action itself.

> radar
any kind of helping radar eventually turns the game into pac-man played on a mini-map UI rather than player actually looking at the "main screen" (that's what metal gear solid 1 inevtiably turns into).

Introducing UI element showing say third-person view for clarity, is not a solution but an admission that your main PoV is completely inadequate.

> This is more a matter of player skill isn't it?
Imagine dashing into open door, or corner. What is behind it? You can't see? Why would you dash there and risk looking into enemy's gun? And why would you dash backwards for that matter?

Unless you dumb down geometry of level into completely flat 2d plain which again brings out the same question -- why did you make it FPS again if you don't capitalise on it?

> UT99-style weapons
slow down the gameplay, postponing hurting action (hurling grenades) or even make it conditional (biosludge, various mines)

> Give those weapons a different stun/launch property
Why would you have launch property over stun? Stunned enemy stays in the same pixel space so you can follow-up shoot at it without moving the mouse at all.

What is the advantage of launching an enemy at all? Incapacitating it? Well you have stun here which already does that AND it's easier to follow-up.

Some kind of guard break/stun system a-la God Hand would have KINDA actually, but to make stun system work you need to make it WORTH IT over just simplistic shooting at the enemy and this demands high HP pools which makes the game again -- slower and makes the game uncontrollable for bigger crowds of enemies with huge HPs that you have to guard break/stun first to damage (think GH with >3 mooks).

Combat is not very impressive. With the limitation of only 6 skill slots, not being able to combine skills cross class, and no juggle mechanics there isn't a lot you can do besides repeating the same 5 combos until you get bored. Which in my case is after 5 minutes.

I'm a huge monster hunter fan so that is a big part why I love the game so goddamn much.

>tfw will never experience the first time finally taking down a dragon and the badass triumph music playing

That's because the West removed the FUN from gaming.

Everything has to be serious-serious or else your game won't be "respected".

Ironically it's weeb as fuck.

But it has some nice depth to it, and a lot of freedom of movement and combat approaches, which is something that modern games severely lack.

Are you for real?

did you really not get a joke?

>you will never play a game where your waifu will catch you while you jump off a dragon that's crashing into the hill side
>in slow motion

Explain.

Non-canon so it's disregarded

Strider clases kind of remedied that because you were more focused on positioning and riding than just generic moves.

It could benefit from a bit more depth, especially the magic system.
Game feel was 10/10.

Only the most autistic of autists care about the Star Wars EU.

Literally nothing of worth in it.

Western developers do understand that. It's just that the western audiences dont appreciate it.

...

>Literally nothing of worth in it
So you admit that JK2 is garbage?

I didn't feel like the combat was that bad.

There's no juggling but nobody cares about the trash mobs and you can't juggle an ogre. And while there is only 6 active skills at a time there is 9 classes with cross-class passive switching so there is a bit of depth to it.

If you rebranded it into "Space Conflict: Laser Knights", rewrite the plot with no connection to the Star Wars Franchise, and leave the mechanics intact, it would be of the same quality.

>There's no juggling
>he didn't juggle mobs in the air with arrows and mach speed sword slashes

Yeah but it's part of the EU, which you said had nothing of worth to it, ergo JK2 is shit.

it still triggers me that he misses the 3 pointer

>Introducing UI element showing say third-person view for clarity, is not a solution but an admission that your main PoV is completely inadequate.
It is a way to deal with the issue of people having no situational awareness. Personally I think a wide FOV, big collision boxes, and a mouse are enough. I've played dishonored with the ultimate difficulty mod, and part of fighting large groups of enemies is keeping them in front and not getting surrounded. This is an extra element that comes with the first person perspective, but it isn't inherently bad.

>Imagine dashing into open door, or corner.
Why dash into an open door then? Why not sprint in there to have a quick look and dash backward? There's always stupid ways to use abilities. I don't see your point with hits.

>And why would you dash backwards for that matter?
In preparation for an explosive shot that would hurt yourself otherwise. To dodge out of range of a melee attack. To dodge an attack coming from the left or right that you heard incoming from an audio cue.


>slow down the gameplay, postponing hurting action (hurling grenades) or even make it conditional (biosludge, various mines)
Not necessarily. the UT99 weapons were only an example to spark the imagination. I'm not saying you should copy their mechanics, firing speed, reload speed, weapon switch cooldowns, projectile speed, etc. Those will obviously need to be tweaked for the game they are in.

>Why would you have launch property over stun? Stunned enemy stays in the same pixel space so you can follow-up shoot at it without moving the mouse at all.
It's not about the advantage. It's about creating a system that requires skill and practice to do more damage by comboing. There will be no "stun" because that negates the other types. Or maybe put in a stun for the noobies, that stops after the enemy is hit again, so a maximum combo of 2 is possible.

You're thinking up problems and issues that would obviously have to be balanced out.

I'm sorry user I'm a filthy warrior and only know the ways of smashing things with fewer hits

it's a lot more clunky but in a cool and different way.

A lot more of the game is focussed on sick parries.

I feel you, smashing things in one swipe is great.
But god damn stacking all the speed buffs in the game is just silly fun.

I'm assuming assassin is how I will experience true fast? I may have to give it a shot

Make sure to climb shit too and use the blade attack that makes you swipe really fast.


If you feel like it, maybe even add the invuln ability that makes you immune to physical attacks at a certain hip percentage.

You can't juggle in DD.

Not saying the combat is bad. But it's hardly complex besides having the detailed mechanics of your typical capcom action game. This is because of the reasons I mentioned. It's not reaching it's full potential.

The magic system was perfect. If you think it's shallow then you do not see the entire picture. Most likely because the pawns distract from the mechanics.

sites.google.com/site/darkwavestyle/games-research/dragon/vocation-specific-actions/sorcerer/4---sorcerer-tactics

Y-Yeah, well at least my country has philosophical storytelling and clever and witty writing with good gameplay like Borderlands and Call of Duty
T-Take that w-weaboo faggot

>>And why would you dash backwards for that matter?
>In preparation for an explosive shot that would hurt yourself otherwise
And risk dashing into enemy that you didn't see?

>reload, cooldowns,
More RPG/DOTA-like slowing down the action, yes, that's exactly what we need.

> You're thinking up problems and issues
which you need to address when designing a combat.

Every little piece and cog and system should click and nothing should feel redundant or absent for that matter.

Otherwise you arrive at exactly same hodge podge of a mess that western publishes ship yearly.

you are just trying to apply concepts from bigger action games into context of FPshooting games with no rhyme or reason if it makes sense.

and if it doesnt?
> There will be no "stun" because that negates the other types
You just remove it?

Man, I gotta get this game soon
I always liked the artstyle, but the fact that people say the combat is good with a melee focus, means I have to try it out.

>The problem is that FPS (and TPS) can't reach the same gameplay depth that melee-based games.

You can't honesty believe this shit, right?

That's fair, I wish there was word on a dragons dogma 2, kinda feels bad that the series stopped at the expansion

Fucking hell I need to find a download for this since I don't have a CD drive anymore to install it. Good memories.

Graphics might turn you away but believe me the combat is WAY more in-depth than you first realize. Whole game was just fucking brilliant even though the story was a little meh towards the end, also SPOOKY DREAM SEQUENCE.

>sites.google.com/site/darkwavestyle/games-research/dragon/vocation-specific-actions/sorcerer/4---sorcerer-tactics

I can't tell if this is a joke.

Featuring Dante, from the Devil May Cryâ„¢ series.

>And risk dashing into enemy that you didn't see?
Risk? I already know there is no enemy behind me because that's where I came from. I won't be in a situation where there are enemies behind me because i'm not stupid. If I do notice myself in such a situation I will retreat and lure them into a group in front of me.

>More RPG/DOTA-like slowing down the action, yes, that's exactly what we need.
That's like the opposite of what I'm saying. Are you even trying to understand what message I'm trying to convey here?
>You just remove it?
In the case of the system I thought up in that post, maybe. But I was kind of thinking of a multiplayer shooter where having such an easy way to do damage negates the reason to do other types of combos. In a single player game I'd probably give it a damage - X% property and see if that works. If it doesn't I'll think of something else.


>which you need to address when designing a combat.
>Every little piece and cog and system should click and nothing should feel redundant or absent for that matter.
>Otherwise you arrive at exactly same hodge podge of a mess that western publishes ship yearly.
>you are just trying to apply concepts from bigger action games into context of FPshooting games with no rhyme or reason if it makes sense
You're fighting the battle about retarded design choices against a person who would not make such design choices permanent without testing and experimenting with them. Calm yourself, and let's move on. I feel using your frustration with shitty devs on the wrong outlet.

Forgot my image.
Also yes that is a lot of fucking bars and bullshit on the HUD. Yes they all mean something.

Alright I just pirated SnK:Wings of Freedom or whatever.

Hey man, I was really high and thought the trailer looked cool. To be fair, I only read the manga up to where Eren becomes a Titan and dropped it before the anime came out. 2 hours later and I'm still playing it.

Just got to wherever Eren becomes a Titan or whatever. Does the gameplay get a little more complex or is it more or less hitting X with minimal timing.

Why do western devs STILL not understand how to make good hack n slash and fighting games? These aren't new genres for God's sake.

>I can't tell if this is a joke.

It's aimed at the rpg retards who used to infest DD general. Sorcerer got a lot of critisism by people who didn't understand how to play one. It was more of a way to vent my frustration at them without having to retype it. Sorcerer is misunderstood, which is evident from the amount of people using the instant charge mods/cheat engine scripts.

Thanks, I can deal with weak graphics, as long as the core gameplay is good.
I actually remember I have a demo disc of it lying around, back from when my dad would grab all the free PC demo disks.

I still need to try this. I keep forgetting.

They honestly gave up. Everyone tried to copy DMC1, but when GoW made it work, everyone tried to copy it. Nowadays, the go to melee combat is just Bamham or Asscreed.

Is Bam Ham combat the worse thing to happen to Western action games?

i would have loved this game to be bigger with multiplayer

Action games in general. A lot of games are affected by it. But doesn't the system originate from asscreed?

>a "good" combat game was about to be released, but it was lend to a company that butchered it like the fucking rest.

Just look at his fucking feet floating in the air and going places because you target oponents but you dont control that shit, so you are "placed" in front of everyone.
Or how everything become light attack, heavy attack, mix of both.
Or the worst of all, artificial difficulty, being as cheap as a jew to make the shit harder, but still being so broken that you are OP as fuck.
Boss fights every 5 minutes with the same shit movements.
>throw you away attack if you are hitting too much
>grab you to force you to smash buttons
>send minions

>That's like the opposite of what I'm saying. Are you even trying to understand what message I'm trying to convey here?
You mention reload mechanic.

Reloading by definition is a restrictive game mechanic slowing down the action.

Even if you add a wrinkle like active reload (a geniune peak of western action game design) it still is stops you from shooting at certain moments unless you do some action (press reload button and wait for animation or do frame-perfect active reload).

Compare to say similar mechanics from 4: EX-ACT. It doesn't stop you from swinging the sword at any times. However if you can press rev button at the right frames it mutates you action (however rather minimal way how it changes you action in EX-ACT form led to that mechanic on the wayside)

same notions about cooldowns, really.

> I already know there is no enemy behind me because that's where I came from.
Provided enemies can't just appear from behind or outflank you. Meaning you have to compromise AI aggressiveness and limit spectre of directions and ways enemies can attack you all for first person perspective sake.

> I won't be in a situation where there are enemies behind me because i'm not stupid
Because you will constantly be looking back and forth and everywhere around you to achieve roughly same situational awareness that third-person or isometric perspective gives you for free.

>You can't juggle in DD.
made me try, just did it with my assassin.

>good combat parts
>shit non combat parts
Like any action game in existence.

Maybe he hasn't played Unreal. It's his loss.

This isn't entirely true when you take into consideration VNs and some of their jrpgs.

Get the fanmade anniversary edition patch. It has a bunch of fixes and an easy to use mod installer to add a lot of neat stuff into the game.
wiki.oni2.net/Anniversary_Edition

It's an old game so its age shows, but its combat is still very worthwhile to try out. Just watch out because the AI has some pretty unfair aim-bot, so you'll have to take a more stealthy approach if you wanna take on gun combat.

If I remember right I got it here.
thepiratebay.org/search/oni/0/99/400
Just make sure you don't download the "Ao Oni" horror game by accident.

Yeah, it feels like a very natural progression of it.
The counter of AssCreed2 and onward was really broken, but the combat itself wasn't so streamlined and automatic though.

It's really sad when I think of it. AC2 had potential and I still love that game, but the series got milked until turning into irredeemable shit.

Huh, I always thought the game I used to play at my uncle's house was SiN, not Oni. But looking at this, yeah, it's coming back to me.
I'll definitely have to try this again at some point.

Yet Japanese games are dying a slow death while Western movie games are selling more and more every major release.

:')

It's not even that, but he's assuming 'good' combat has to play and feel a certain way.

First assumption would be the assumption that fast=good.

Although this can be very true and makes something very visceral, say with DOOM 1 and 2, or DMC/ Metal Gear Rising, just because you make something fast doesn't mean it's good, and vice versa.

The guy is just saying why are the Japanese making the only action games he happens to like, and spits out his own personal criteria as if it's word of god.

Might as well go "How come only the Japanese keep making great RPGs, and the West still hasn't figured it out yet?" and his criteria being the what defines JRPGs and then whatever doesn't meet that expectation is 'bad'

Dude, I love DMC and melee action games, but you really can't compare them with shooters. They're way too different in their approach.
C'mon man

What did you do exactly?

>AC2 had potential and I still love that game, but the series got milked until turning into irredeemable shit.
AC was shit from the get go. It was a next gen iteration of the prince of persia games, and sacrificed control in favor of hold X to everything.

Yes, better at making fighting games too.

Sadly that is the fate of all progressive media.

He's very negative. Don't waste your breath.

Same could be said for shitty weeb games. All they focus on is little girls and 2dpd """"""""""art"""""""""

Legitimate western video games tend to focus on the math behind everything, not how the math is implemented. Like Diablo/Fallout.

The thread really should've ended right here. It's really not so much something that's intrinsic to Japanese developers, so much as it is an epidemic that's swept across the philosophy in which Western developers make their games. There's a certain flashiness and theatricality that's not there with Western developers, when it comes to certain video game aspects. That whole bit in that image about boss design and NT not getting that a boss may open itself up to be attacked indirectly or do a bunch of crazy shit show that there's this strange obsession with realism among Western developers that may be beneficial towards some types of video games, but ultimately detrimental towards, I'd say, most types of vidya. They don't understand more abstract concepts like animation cancelling, something that's intrinsic to pretty much every action game, invincibility frames, frame-perfect inputs, and so on. I think this also has a lot to do with the Japanese's predilection towards designing gameplay first, whereas among the West, story and universe are often crafted before they come up with anything gameplay-related.

That's the fate of progress. Simplify and expand. Evolution 101.

> Metal Gear Rising
> fast

Your phrasing betrays that you lack the context.

You also try to accuse that only very specific type of action is accepted.

but that's bullshit. NGB feels nothing like DMC, and so is Bayo, and W101 and Vanquish (which is TPS) and Viewtiful Joe (which is 2d game)

You accuse that i demand ol' same, while i actually crave for for new things and ideas and get stale shit.

It is also not as reductionary and simplistic as you present it in terms of speed -- again all this games operate on vastly different speeds.

And the person you're responding to, presumes that people here haven't played Unreal despite discussing it's weapons here at length literally several posts up.

Yeah, man totally. Thanks for life-changing revelation.

The Warriors had good combat
I think its used in Bully too

cant you use instant reset or something instead of the roll? i dont remember which vocation has it, though

>Every Frame A Painting

This.

The Warriors is the only western game with good 3D combat. Very meaty, very chaotic.

Bully uses a slower variant that's just okay.

literally all those games either suck or aged poorly

>Arkham combat
I like the Arkham games but I fully recognize that they're really not that good when it comes to combat.

For fucks' sakes, because of the magnetic nature of the combat, there's next to no spatial awareness and positioning needed, at least not for anything other than dodging (which in itself is rather magnetic). You point in the direction of an enemy and you fly towards them, and you're highly, highly encouraged to continue to do so until each wave of enemies is defeated. This is somewhat mitigated with enemy types that require you to defeat them another way, some gadgets and tools that have some use and/or function as another type of attack, and Special Combos, but overall, it's shallow. Very, very shallow. But even worse than THAT even, is the fact that due to its focus on crowd control, to the point where the game's combat essentially devolves into dealing with crowds and more crowds of enemies, and since your position is always tied to your enemy's position, it's extremely difficult to design a design boss with the series' combat, which is a major design flaw.

Anyone who seriously thinks those games have the GOAT combat system needs to GTFO. It's kind of terrible, honestly.

Both east and west have their pros and cons.

If I want a cuhrayzee hack n' slash like MGR or Bayonetta, japs have that shit on lock

If I want a shooter, I'll go western.

Past that it depends on the series

I enjoy the Arkham games only on a base level of being Batman - and that's the games biggest defense - but honestly I don't feel like Batman in the combat. I feel more like I'm nightcrawler as I teleport around the arena to hit a guy.

store.steampowered.com/app/473690

Absolver combat looks cool

I actually really like a lot of aspects of the gameplay, like the stealth gameplay and how the beat 'em up gameplay segues perfectly into the stealth aspect of it, so it's all a cohesive experience, instead of the game controlling completely differently depending on whether you're in combat or in Predator Mode.

I think in a lot of ways, Rocksteady are good devs, since the Arkham games were some of the best action-adventure games last gen, but the combat mechanics in the games sorely need work.

This.

Japan just makes game in a different way than the West. The West begins with drawing characters, the look of the world, that kind of shit. Most of Japan however begin with making the mechanics and how the game will play, and then they design the world around that.

This is why games like The Last of Us has Ellie for no real good gameplay reason, because the story was made first.

>This is why games like The Last of Us has Ellie for no real good gameplay reason, because the story was made first.

This is so true that it's kind of sad actually.

Pic related, it's rare you have a character like Sherry or Ada at your side as much as you do with Ellie in Last of Us, because despite their importance to the plot, it's hard to justify them being at your side in RE2 all the way through

>This is why games like The Last of Us has Ellie for no real good gameplay reason, because the story was made first.
Didn't she at least stun enemies sometimes though?

Come to think of it, they should've done more with her. Should've had her scrounge for supplies and ammo for you.

Gunz the duel dumbass

Also Kid Icarus: Uprising.

>Vanquish
That's not an action game user. No EAST shooter will ever surpass Quake or UT.

Kinda, Nips have their own good/bad point, the same goes for western dev

Kid Icarus: Uprising i loved for amazing story and character more than anything else. It does an amazing job working with just one attack button that encompasses both shooting and melee + special moves (nub movement plus attack, run plus attack and so on)

>Are Japanese developers just better at combat than Western developers

Yes mainly because Japanese developers see it as a work and a passion thus creating a progressive work environment without even realizing.

In the west developers just see it as a job that makes money so they don't really aim for innovation. So they stick to dull application of aiming for "realism" despite never even achieving it and making money out of telling you how "realistic" it is but that games need to be at 30fps.

>implying there aren't good action games from outside grorious nippon
>implying muh cinematic experience is all you find outside Japan
Do you weebs even play games anymore?

t. yuropoor

you posted a webm where player shoots some guys and jumps a bit i guess

also the game is more than 10 years old

what were you even trying to convey here

>you posted a webm where player shoots some guys and jumps a bit i guess
As opposed to something in DMC where he slashes some guys and jumps a bit? Grossly oversimplifying a game's mechanics is stupid as fuck, is shitposting the only thing you know how to do?

>Itagaki will never make another Ninja Gaiden

Fuck

Did you see how Devil's Third turned out? Maybe it's for the best.

how am i oversimplifying anything? That's literally all there is about that webm

Shoots a guy, vaults over an obstacle, shoots another guy, switches to shotgun, shoots three more guys.

Are you saying that the player actually uses unscrutable black magic that brings in an abyss of depth that i can't comprehend? Please do enlighten.

And you still haven't answered why you posted such an old game.

Dead or Alive actually improved after he left in both gameplay and fanservice.

This can't be real. Must be a bug.

That same oversimplification can be applied to any game in a condescending manner. Any you're pretending to be retarded for (You)'s or you're too stupid to understand basic game concepts.

>And you still haven't answered why you posted such an old game.
It's an old favorite of mine. Not sure why that triggers you, the game in OP's pic came out the same year as FEAR.

And you still haven't answered my question, is shitposting all you know how to do?

It's very real. The game is absolute dogshit.

Japanese devs make good action gameplay because it only requires autism to get it right and fun.

Unfortunately, they fail to make anything beyond that interesting. Or a story that isn't retarded, most of the time.

To be fair, the whole entire development cycle of that game was fucking crazy. Dude got screwed over hard.

If he weren't forced to switch publishers and engines like four times, it might've been good.

Metal Gear Rising
Bayonetta
Devil May Cry 1, 3 , and 4
Ninja Gaiden
Killer Is Dead
Sengoku Basara
Godhand

> Not sure why that triggers you, the game in OP's pic came out the same year as FEAR.
OP also mentions five other games.

>That same oversimplification
There is literally no oversimplification.

Please do explain how the game is actually much deeper than it looks from that webm

Don't really fail to see the irony of repeated accusing of shitposting and overgeneralzing while your first post is this:
> Do you weebs even play games anymore?

The point of asking more recent games is because you literally said "anymore".

I think the game's basic concept was flawed. Combining a FPS shooter with melee based action game might work in some context, but they went about it in the laziest way possible.

I'm willing to give cookie face some slack because the changes in the studio and it felt like we got nothing he really wanted from it. The guy steps in and makes NG, NGB, and NG2 then when he leaves, 3 comes out. Sure, they made Razer's Edge but it just took out the new shit they wanted in 3 and took a bunch of shit from 2. I'm sure he could produce a another NG type game if he gets stable development.

retarded stories are the best one

have you never read focault's pendulum or illuminatus!?

I agree that it really should've just had been a TPS game through and through.

Yep. If he'd gotten proper funding, a more stable development, then I'm entirely sure he could probably make another good game. Too bad he moved to developing mobile games iirc.

all there i see from these webms is problems with polish and bugs that might have been fixed eventually if the game had less tumultuous development

>moved to developing mobile games
no.
a much worse fate.
He is now Nexon's bitch

I actually did, bought it launch day for $84 canuck bux. It was awful, but had SOME interesting ideas. The guns felt pretty much all the same, katana and dual knives were better than every other melee weapon in the game. But the Grundla Saha fight was very Ninja Gaiden like, but that was the only good boss fight in the game.

Plus he should go back to making melee action games since he knows how to make those, not melee/tps hybrids with fucked up development time.

He made his own engine with Valhalla so it would be interesting to see how the results will differ, the NG engine is propietary so maybe it's closer to that? I really just want Itagaki to make a comeback, but he's getting old and most likely forced to do F2P games unless Nintendo gets him to do Devil's Fourth

Japan devs tend to be much more focused on execution of concept, where the West seems more and more interested in just jerking off to the concept.

>He made his own engine
>Real Ultimate Ninja Engine
kek. Guess once a ninja, always a ninja

So many weeaboos in a single thread Holy shit

>OP also mentions five other games.
Jedi Academy, Mount and Blade, Dark Messiah, Max Payne 3, The Warriors
>There is literally no oversimplification.
So you are really that dumb. Sad, I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Think of the basics of melee action games. Many of the same concepts like spacing apply, only in a different way. Enemies and the player can attack at a much longer range, but how the player uses weapons to pressure, wound or outright kill enemy targets can have a typical encounter play out differently. Not only ranged attacks, but AOE attacks, melee attacks and choice of targets all play a part in how well you survive.

youtu.be/xzLaWbLZl24
We will never get this version of the game.
No asian cutie to play as.

ITT: Weeaboos claim only their button masher dogshit have 'sublime combat systems'

>muh cuhrayzee over the top stories

>he thinks wrpgs have good combat

Monster Hunter's combat also feels pretty great and it's not as fast as a character action game

How do the nips do it

(You)

Watch some more gameplay on youtube or something. You can kill virtually every normal enemy by walking backwards and shooting, even melee based enemies. Bosses that are bullet resistant can still be killed easily by spamming one attack over and over. The game was not balanced at all.

>Many of the same concepts like spacing apply
which is not reflected at all in neither of webms you posted

> how the player uses weapons to pressure, wound or outright kill enemy targets can have a typical encounter play out differently
Which again -- not reflected in neither of your webms.

And why would you NEED to have such a choice in a shooter where aiming at the head is ALWAYS the best choice that makes any other choices moot.

> melee attacks
Not shown in neither of your webms.

You continue to talk shit while failing to back up any of the words you say.

Someone post that video. You know which one.

>The game was not balanced at all
which is my point exactly

>which is not reflected at all in neither of webms you posted
Because I don't have many webm's of those games. I only grabbed these from the webm threads that are eternally on Cred Forums. Instead I'm trying to explain to a literal child how things work.
>And why would you NEED to have such a choice in a shooter where aiming at the head is ALWAYS the best choice
It's not always a choice that's available, either due to enemy actions or the turbulence of combat making it difficult. That's like bitching at someone in a fighting game for not always doing one specific powerful move all the time, regardless of position or anything. Context is important.

Really user, you could try not shitposting for once. You might like it.

I don't think the basic design of the game could be balanced. It seems fucked to the core.

Please answer any of my questions for once instead of accusing others of shitposting.

You continue to evade explaining anything at all and backing up anything you say while acting up like you know some secret knowledge concerning rather primitive and old games that are old hat by now

I would argue that shooter + melee is not a flawed concept though.

youtube.com/watch?v=fVrX0MHBZ_I

I've already answered them, you're simply not reading. I'll post it again since it seems you're having a hard time.

FEAR
>Enemies and the player can attack at a much longer range, but how the player uses weapons to pressure, wound or outright kill enemy targets can have a typical encounter play out differently. Not only ranged attacks, but AOE attacks, melee attacks and choice of targets all play a part in how well you survive.

This is very basic stuff, with many of the same concepts that you see in melee based action games only different. Put on your thinking cap Georgie boy, it's not hard to understand.

>concerning rather primitive and old games that are old hat by now

Half the thread is games that are older than the game we're talking about. Maybe if you stopped being retarded you wouldn't be accused of shitposting so much. People tend to give you the benefit of the doubt, but as you see, accidents happen.

> I've already answered them
No, you didn't.

You keep evading all requests to elaborate how my description is oversimplification at all, you repeatedly fail to lay down and present any of the supposedly allegedly hidden mechanics your teenage years favourite game has

>This is very basic stuff
So not deep at all?

You spent so many electrons, posting so many letters hyping up "basic stuff"?

Well done, my friend.

Slightly unrelated, but I fucking love Jackie Chan. The guy will always be one of my role models.

>No, you didn't.
Yes, I did. Feel free to describe the combat in any other game of your choosing, it can be reduced to the same oversimplified drivel.
>shitposting
>more shitposting
Sad that in all these posts you're not able to put forth any arguments at all.

>Weebs
Smdhtbqhwy.

Sort of, they focus more on gameplay but they also make tons of games that focus on grinding which is boring.

I am not the one claiming others are stupid.

I am not claiming anything in fact. I just keep asking for proofs and only get hysterical screams "shitposting" instead of responses.

I don't have to put forth any argument at all.

You are the one who has to prove and answer simple questions on why anything you say matters.

You are the one claiming others are ignorant while putting forth a mechanically inferior game as sort of an example of deeply developed game while completely refusing to elaborate on anything.

I ask you for nth time -- please do explain how your game whatever it's name is, is somehow deeper than you regular mid-2000s shooter game (third- or first- person -- it really makes little to no difference in terms of how shallow it inevitably ends up being regardless).

You get answers but you pretend like you don't. That's shitposting. Cry about it if you want, but your behavior is the cause of all your sorrow.
>You are the one claiming others are ignorant
Just you user, but because you really are.
>while putting forth a mechanically inferior game
You've yet to prove anything of the sort, BUT OH WAIT, you don't have to prove anything. How convenient for you.
>please do explain how your game whatever it's name is, is somehow deeper than you regular mid-2000s shooter game
We're talking about games with good combat, and FEAR certainly does have it. The mechanics have already been explained Barney style. If you're still not able to grasp it, maybe you should actually play it. If it still eludes you after that, there's no helping you.

no because japan also made edf "press and hold fire until everything dies", senran "mash x and press y to fan service" kagura, and yakuza "qte fights with the exact same finishers"

you don't judge the industry by it's worst examples
or else all people would remember about all videogames would be LJN licensed shitgames

you just compare best jap action games with western action games and get depressing results

You mash Y in SK, not X.

The combat designer was a huge dmc fan wasn't he?

how much being a fan of something really matters if you are incapable to deliver on your love and face such opposition or worse -- complete indifference that your vision doesn't really shine through at all

I mean Saur who is a fan turned turned youtube star literally worked on DmC

much good it did

Is he 12 in that pic?

no

To be honest people should stop sucking off DMC series. Most of the depth there is just not even by the style meter but because players want to make cool looking videos. Games like PSO2 from Sega thanks to being actually multiplayer has shown that developers might need years to actually balance combat so at the very least your weapon has more than 2 usable moves you can cycle all day. Meanwhile you had combo videos by DMC rejects with silliest class combos that would immediately cause puking if you joined a party.

>stop sucking off DMC series
so did Capcom.
Now the series is deader than God Hand

You can't be deader than God Hand.

>while Western movie games are selling more and more every major release.
i think it's a worse problem than that. I think action video games are replacing action movies.

>An act of shooting allows only for two outcomes -- either you hit the the target, or you don't. If you hit the enemy, it either explodes into gibs or gets some number decreased from it's HP pool. This is a very limiting binary outcome.
So this us what happens when an actual retard tries to sound smart

Are trying you to say something?

During aiming you can either hit the target or not the target? do you imply that there is a mythical third state?

That's right.

Western devs can't into good combat or even gameplay.

They simply lack the talent and creative fortitude that the Japanese posses.

Red Steel 2 did it best imo

FEAR is shallow as fuck. The mechanics do not allow actions to be combined besides movement and free aiming. quake 3 is 10% of dmc4, fear is 1% of dmc4.

and DMC4 is more like DMC 3.4 at best

japan has proper action games and visual novels
west has grindfest and CinEMAtic ExPerienCes

>this is the best combat of any western game

made by Platinum, IE Japs

Why don't Japs do FPS games, ever?
Is it because they are primarily console focused and have the brains to realized they don't work on consoles so they don't try to force it unlike western devs?

No it isn't because dmc3 has your moveset split into parts that require going to a statue on a level to switch to other moves. This is unacceptable for any action game. We're only talking about depth here.

capcom did a shooter game recently with that resident evil shit. It was so boring, jesus fuck.

Nier also combined elements from both, as well as other games. Very unique.

You mean umbrella corps?
Still not a real FPS though.

Either they're not importing them here for various reasons (obscure kusoge?) or they prefer to make other kinds of games. Probably doesn't help that the west has the genre by the balls.

Western developers don't care about game design in general. It's all about the story or the "stunning visuals". They never did much with gameplay that wasn't derivative shit and that has always been the case.

because someone sat down and thought about it and point/click didn't seem like fun combat

Yes, but point/press a button is, apparently.

Can you please stop being retarded?

Yeah video games are pretty shit dude

Do you want to play a nip FPS?
Good luck, you'll need it.

No one who is a fan of shmups or fighting games will debate you either. There are genres where non Japanese developers are clearly better, but for those few it is clear as day that the Japanese are traditionally superior, and the best Western efforts are by those who copy what the Japanese had been doing for years.

Just like euroshmups shit up the formula by adding horrible design decisions like inertia, bright colorful backgrounds or health bars (to mask the fact that the game is not correctly balanced to be able to consistently go through every pattern without getting hit once), Western action games put too much focus on the wrong details, like a character turning around realistically, when they should be thinking in terms of i-frames, input chains and designing the enemies around the combat system.

But as others have said, it's not like the Western audience in general, and the press in particular, really appreciates this to begin with. Darksiders 2 and Lords of Shadow 2 both had fantastic fighting systems for Western games and it didn't help them any. Just look at many of the negative reviews of DMC4, whining about repeated bosses and areas in a game that's a fucking masterpiece gameplay wise, and how many of those people later thought that DmC was a better game.

are there any RTS games japs have made out side of pic related?

GrimGrimoire. Ogre Battle is RTS-ish, I guess.

I remember one old reason.

Japanese were easily getting headaches in regards to FPS games. That's why it took a long while for it to get a hold in there.

This.
Fucking retards were conditioned to think of vidya as characters, story, music and graphics first and gameplay second.

So many times I see people who ignore the absolute shit gameplay because to them, having a character speak is "good storytelling" and games with fun gameplay are shat on because the characters are "one dimensional".
Not to mention people who won't even give a game a try if it doesn't meet their standard of graphics.

Guns are what's right with America.
The media is what's wrong with it

the god agrees

True, but it made clear to me that not even capcom can create a good fps even if they stick to conventional designs.

Holy shit this hurts to read.
If Itsuno hadn't been adviser for DmC it would have been even more terrible then it already is.

It's like watching a a parent trying to save it's drowning kid but the ship captain insisted on that the life vest was going to be filled with concrete

Yes.

Obligatory
youtube.com/watch?v=6AV9W2ZdmjU

>game is going to be marketed towards the west first
>that was the whole point with the reboot
>caring about jap ratings
what

But that's wrong you fucking retard. Games have selling progressively worse and worse every year

>youtube.com/watch?v=y2vCko6V4pQ
I immediately wanted to link that as soon as I read about him trying to explain it. Based TurboButton.

And the game still bombed in Japan kek.

Western devs are fucking trash.

Do I need a PC to able to practice my JC and shit for DMC4?

Furi was surprisingly great.

dude is almost completely wrong about God Hand, but overall video is solid

Yeah I usually just skip to NG/DMC2 part. It's spot on.

What do you mean user?

Yeah. Consoles don't have unlocked debug mode.

JC is jump canceling right?

>Just look at many of the negative reviews of DMC4, whining about repeated bosses and areas in a game that's a fucking masterpiece gameplay wise, and how many of those people later thought that DmC was a better game.


This part hurts me the most. That whole debacle was awful.

No shit doc, the game bombed everywhere. Or at least sold below expectations.

Sure but it was devastatingly bad in Japan.

Right. It's not so much of a problem for Cuhrazy fags like us since we would be doing multiple playthroughs of the game anyway since DMC4 requires it if you want to skillful.

Most of the bosses that were provided however were a blast to fight.

I don't even consider myself a cuhrazyfag since my interest is a step above surface level at best. But I appreciate and respect the effort real cuhrazy fags put into it, and hate it when actually knowledgeable people are ignored in favor of hacks who'd rather be reviewing films or books.

A lot of people will disagree with me, but I thought Dragon Age: Inquisition handled combat pretty well actually, I especially liked playing as a 2-handed warrior. Every blow felt weighty and there was a good sense of speed.

tfw Naughty Dog when made Crash Bandicoot the focus was on gameplay and graphics but it's slowly become about graphics and story for future games after the Jak series

Western devs could only make good shooters and good rpgs now they refuse to make either. UT4 is probably the best possible shooter to look forward to and its trapped in eternal beta.

I unironically liked DAI but I really don't think it's worthy of being brought up in a thread like this one of all things

...

Concerning 3rd person action games like the ones you mentioned, yes, definitely.

Most other weebshit has shit gameplay though.

I like you. I hope good games and fun times come to you.

Yeah but it's not particularly common or anything. It's the studios really and the only studio who still does these types of games are platinum but even they have been branching out

Japanese games in general have better core mechanics than western games.

Yes? How is this even a question.

Devil May Cry series
Ninja Gaiden
Bayonetta series
God Hand
The Wonderful 101
Metal Gear Rising
Monster Hunter series
Dragon's Dogma

AAA western studios just can't into gameplay mechanics.

So what is the closest thing Western games have to cuhrazy, assuming we define that as high technical skill ceiling? Old school FPS like UT, Quake, and Tribes?

lok defiance is pretty good. Look at them combos

KAIN REFUSED THE SACRIFICE

I'm voting Dishonored.

Old school fps are not complex enough from a mechanics point of view. AKA the movesets are too small which makes the number of combinations of actions very small.

Was this game trying to copy DMC1?

So does Nier Automata, and it looks like it's fundamentally an iteration on the TfD system (though with MUCH more interesting gunplay).

Obviously time will tell but from what I've seen of the gameplay so far it appears to be one of the few games EVER where gun and melee are both equally worthwhile choices in most combat scenarios.

youtube.com/watch?v=_R5C4KV2Q14

Cast him in! ;_;

Man... I'd like to agree because I love fantasy RPGs but in terms of DA:I combat... no just no.

It tried to implement an action-oriented fast-paced style as well as a slower tactical system but failed at both.

Higher IQ.

It's true.

I used to really like God of War, but since I've played every DMC, NG and Bayonetta, going back to God of War 3 on the PS4, the combat feels sluggish and awkward. Even DmC is more fun to play, funny enough.

NINJA THEORY BTFO

>gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2015/07/30/capcom-reports-strong-financial-performance-and-devil-may-cry-4-special-edition-sales.aspx

Even putting in classic Dante costumes in the Definitive Edition couldn't save them.

NT basically needed Itsuno's Team to hold their hand to make that, right? And it took dev time away from Dragon's Dogma?

Yeah. His team also handled Vorgil's DLC and like the entirety of Definitive Edition.

Don't forget Vanquish

The pinnacle of the TPS genre.

TPS is a shit genre and the only reason why Vanquish is good is because it's not at all played like your regular TPS.

Ninja Theory shat the bed hard by alienating fans by dissing the original games and dismissing all criticism as just "muh white hair", even gameplay criticism. The fact they put in Classic Dante costumes probably shows that they legitimately thought all fans cared about was the hair color, and not the core gameplay.

Very likely. The series has always copied whatever was popular at the time.
Even their latest cancelled game copied Bamham combat.

The mechanics are worth a laugh though. Check this webm. Notice how the enemy behind him also stays afloat when the enemy in front is hit.


Oh I know bro. I'm not even watching Nier intently. I know it will be worth the buy regardless of my high standards.

>His team also handled Vorgil's DLC and like the entirety of Definitive Edition

Really? Sauce on this?

I can confirm. I remember something about that.

Man, that's sucks. It's like having your child taken away from you, put into a abusive household by child services, then be ordered to act as a nanny for them because their new parents are useless, taking time away from your other child.

that is some Musou level hitboxes

I like closers.
youtu.be/OCl1bxoUC0Q?t=30s

DmC: DE actually went back to many of the series staple mechanics from a gameplay perspective as well.

>60 FPS
>Harder difficulty
>Harder Style system
>Reworked DT so enemies stay on the ground
>Reworked FUCKING COLOR CODED ENEMIES
>Re-balancing to remove use of exploits

There may be other changes but it removed many of the things that were added by DmC.

It was all too little too late however.

Dishonored has a pretty nice system. It even has a stun system, but sadly the stun state does not restart when hit enemies during stun, so no combo-ing. Enemies also die too fast. It does have some cool mechanics.

>Reworked FUCKING COLOR CODED ENEMIES
Wasn't the whole game built around color coded enemies? How did it work then once they removed it?

It's not just the hitboxes. They just have some kind of float function programmed in that affects all airborne enemies. super retarded.

The problem is that western devs don't even want to make cool combat, if someone took Dark Messiah and expanded on it i bet we would have really deep first person melee combat today.

aaaaaand /thread

You're retarder

Dark messaiah isn't deep you retard. Provide some fucking proof that anything exists in that game that is more than shooting enemies while luring them into an ice pool and watching them slip off a ledge.

Also someone think up a term that diversifies attack combos and shit like far cry 3, dark messiah, where you can combine certain gameplay elements but they're hardly part of a "combat control system", but more a result of how the world reacts and what happens in it.

>60 FPS
Already unlocked on the PC version. It shouldn't even be plastered as a feature anyway since DMC4 is usually played on 120FPS.

>Harder difficulty
Enemies are still braindead sponges.

>Reworked DT so enemies stay on the ground
DmC's DT was a retarded, butchered idea to begin with. Much like the entire game.

>Reworked FUCKING COLOR CODED ENEMIES
Not really. You can damage them sure but they don't get staggered. Still shit.

>Re-balancing to remove use of exploits
Bugs are still present all over the place because Unreal 3 is fucking garbage. I could bust my webm folder.

Also you forgot that they added a gimmicky, half-assed lock-on system that is also clunky and nonviable with a lot of the move. It's there just so they could say that it's there.

Thing is, DE was applying a band-aid on a severed leg and selling it again. Bunch of those ideas were actually mods from the PC version that the community did for free, which is probably the main reason why DE is not on the PC.

There was no reason for a reboot because the gameplay was good and the narrative didn't matter in the first place. Even with DE DmC is still a shit fucking game in its own right and especially when you compare it to older titles of the same franchise. DE wasn't even "too little too late" because the overall package would still be shit even if all of this was in the base game.

Nobody said it's perfect, dipshit, but it's a start. A foundation to build on.

>Provide some fucking proof that anything exists in that game that is more than shooting enemies while luring them into an ice pool and watching them slip off a ledge.
you can do this meaningless strawman with any game

>Reworked FUCKING COLOR CODED ENEMIES
you can damage them, but at 75% the damage and no hitstun or attack properties if I remember right.
A free mod for PC is a better fix than DE

Why are there no first person crazy games?

>no hitstun or attack properties

this is the biggest offender. give me half hitstun at least, no hitstun is just stupid

Yes, but the market for these types of games end up pretty niche to the point where Japan will probably churn out a good one every 2-3 years. 95 percent of the players won't get to understand the complexity of the combat for these games anyway which is why most developers tend to pass them up

Japan focuses on fun vs sales while in the west it's the complete opposite of focusing on something that will sale with fun being 2nd priority at least for the big studios. I can't really blame them for wanting a stable income since there's a complete difference in culture and economy but that's a different thread.

The japanese know how to make precise, consistent mechanics. In western action games you pretty much can't do a no-hit run because nothing is reliable or exact enough so you'll always guess wrong and take a hit somewhere.

fast movements in first person can be confusing. And to be better able to understand whats happening, higher fov would be required.
You could consider some arena fps as "crazy",.

Try Breakdown, shit gets pretty crazy.