Fact: Diablo 2 had the greatest PvP of any online game in history

Fact: Diablo 2 had the greatest PvP of any online game in history

Despite PvP originally being an afterthought for the developers, it grew into the main selling point for the game, growing strongly because of the laissez-faire attitude towards regulating player behaviour and not micromanaging PvP balance. Players were allowed to do whatever they wanted and create their own metagame rules like "No healing potions" or "No naked killing", and transgressions of 'Bad manners' were handled by teaming up or cheating in turn.

This stands in stark contrast to the modern philosophy of online gaming, where player interaction is strictly regulated, 'griefing' and 'toxic behaviour' are punished and dominant strategies are nerfed into the ground. By an overbearing control over the userbase, emergent gameplay is stifled and players are not free to express themselves. Players are turned off by lifeless arenas where they have been told to confine their duels, their play is quickly quantitized and turned into statistics on leaderboards and ladders and transparent monetization of forced esports scenes instead of players developing the metagame on their own.

All that Diablo 2 had to do to create the best PvP scene in history was take a reasonably bare bones dueling system and apply a single well constructed balance patch to create a sufficient amount of build diversity via bandaid fixes like Enigma and Call to Arms, alongside some of the more detailed statistical balances like synergies. Then they let the players sort it out for themselves. They didn't tell you how to play.

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Huh, neat.

Can your sperg out some more to back up your claims? Like some evidence.

>Despite PvP originally being an afterthought for the developers
Stopped even considering that you could simply be an idiot.
MP was the primary focus, from the very start.

>pvp is the only form of multiplayer

Diablo 2 pvp is garbage. and fuck you for going hostile at me bitch.

>teleporting all over the map and occasionally spamming your primary skill
woow, such deep and engaging pvp gameplay

>bandaid fixes like Enigma and Call to Arms
>items that destroy the game
>fixes

>Diablo 2 had the greatest PvP of any online game in history
Strange way to spell "Tibia"

Yeah, cause getting ganked by an Assassin flykicking like an chinese kung-fu movie star was so fucking fun.

Cool blog

I'm guessing this is your video

youtube.com/watch?v=f3n_NsvGZSg

it is
for one of you
the other one of you needs to realize it's just a game and are doing it wrong if you're not having fun

mfw pvp summon mancer that just teleports around the map and if I happen to teleport to your exact location you instantly die

As much as I like Diablo 2 the PvP was complete garbage

>implying 18 year olds on Cred Forums have even played diablo 2

I've lost so many ears,gold, and items that i feel like a ww1 soldier going over the top everytime i go out of a safe zone.

d2 is one of my favorite games, but the PvP is a joke.

>Well hello there, let me just one-shot you with this undodgable spell in all patches before 1.10

yeah, its good pvp when you have to equip agains ONE spec, to not die instantly when you see someone using it.

PvP was far more popular with the active playerbase than PvE.
Most of the silent majority of casual players were PvE-only, but they only played the game once or twice and dropped it. The hardcore players who kept the game going for over a decade were primarily PvP- there were a few autists who actually enjoyed grinding the same content endlessly and played mods, but they were a small minority

dueling was by far the biggest draw. Just look at the relative popularities

>evidence

>500%
Does that mean it goes off 5 times simultaneously?

>cost of monarch
1 pgem
>cost of 4 perfect topazes
4 pgems
>cost of thundergod's vigor
2 pgems

there you go, 7 perfect gems and you're immune to FoH

viable FFA builds in 1.09:
>bowazon
>orb/ts sorc

viable FFA builds in 1.10:
>bone necro
>poison necro
>fb sorc
>blizz sorc
>orb sorc
>nova sorc
>lightning sorc
>wind druid
>fire druid
>whirlwind barb
>singer barb
>whirlwind assassin
>trap assassin
>smite paladin
>blessed hammer paladin
>fist of the heavens paladin
>aura paladin
>bowazon
>javazon
>plagueazon

which build uses all these items? You have to change your whole gear to counter ONE fucking build, and get farted away by anything other.

why did diablo 2 have literally the only community in existence to call it "PvM" and not "PvE"

I loved Diablo 2 pvp.

I had an FOH paladin
A hammerdin
A Hurricane druid
A bone necro
And of course a WW barb

>not keeping a stash filled with absorb items
everyone and their mother had 2 wisp projectors, 2 dwarf stars, 2 ravenfrosts, a rising sun, 4x ptopaz and 4x psapphire monarchs, tgods, hotspurs and a resist helmet in their stash.
any build could use them

It was good until Enigma came along.

PvE came largely from world of warcraft, which was after diablo 2, who called it PvM
I think the WoW players wanted the distinction with questing and grinding and raiding that it wasn't always vs monsters

d2's pvp was amazing, but you needed to at least have decent gear to be competitive

it has a surprisingly high skill cap compared to other similar games (do some nec vs nec duels). many little techniques like namelock, weaponswap glitch, etc are used at the competitive level

the people who say "it was good until enigma came along" have it exactly backwards. enigma made pvp much more robust, balanced, and raised the amount of skill required to thrive

all of this said, pve was much much more popular that pvp. also, pvp in public games was often times shit

i was the #1 pvper to ever exist so you should just take my words as fact

>It was good when the only viable build was bowazons with their arrows that spun around and hit you 8 times in a row with knockback

yeah, cause rings shields boots and helmets are completley optional in every build ever

FoH in its high times was OP and bullshit as fuck, and you know it.

>FoH in its high times was OP and bullshit as fuck, and you know it.
foh was never good vs a competent player that had decent gear, even with all of the GM rule sets

>Oh noes I went from 9 frames per cast to 10 frames per cast and lost 10% of my overall damage
>and now instead of dealing 2000 HP damage per hit, the FOH'er heals me for 40 HP

sorb > cheesy builds

>nec vs nec
>high skillcap

Pew Pew, autoaim boneyface

Here have my 2 million range poison nova! Oh snap it doesnt kill you? Well i just use my 20 million teeth, that i got with one valuepoint

CURSE CURSE CURSE CURSE

oh you have perfect gear? here let me just fucking kill you in a millisecond with my 200000 summons

if PvP was a joke in D2 how come its still more alive 16 years after release than path of exile's PvP scene is right now

Yup, massive damage

>I have no idea what skilled dueling was actually like: the post
poison nova was too short range and slow to hit anyone teleporting around, poison necros were tier 2 or tier 3
teeth dealt trivial ignorable damage and was too low to FHR anyone
the curses were irrelevant against casters in 1v1, none of them did anything for a bone necro

bone necro dueling was about telestomping with bone spears or laying down suppressing lines of bone spirits. At its worse, it was about IBS where necros spammed 10 bone spirits in a straight line, teleported into it, and prayed the enemy would try to telestomp them and fall for the trap as the invisible spirits connected

>Greentexting "evidence".

Why are you being mean OP? I just wanted to learn.

in the same sense that getting falcon punched was unfun and overpowered
>actually letting yourself get hit by a skill that look like 2 seconds to fully complete and left the attacker completely vulnerable and easily interrupted

No idea what happened in that webm.
Looks like shit too.

no, THIS looks like shit
you can count the pixels

this shows that you're a certified scrub

high end nec vs nec only allows bonespear, teleport, and golem

>Blizzard completely copped out of Diablo 3 PvP

I mean it was arena based, but the fact that they straight up never put in what was shown at blizzcon is ridiculous.

To this day, whenever you look at your banner with the default staff holding it you should be reminded of their colossal fuckery, because the staff customization was going to be tied to the PvP arena achievements.

>arenas
>achievements
>esports

all signs that your PvP is DoA
real pvp should just work like this:
>someone pisses you off
>you press a button to declare hostility
>they have a chance to escape
>you hunt them down and kill them

there was this tiny mmorpg called 4th coming I used to play

when there was a PK, the server came together, the "good guys" hunted him, the low levels feared him, etc

it gave life to the server

today all that shit cant exist because no game allows villains

Yeah yeah, nobody cares idiot. Diablo 3 would have to be completely different than what it was to precipitate diablo 2's anarchic pvp style.

I'm just concerned with blizzard not delivering on what was promised and instead introducing "brawling"

i can't believe there are faggots out there who actually thought the little sorc teleporting shit was fun

how come path of exile's pvp is dead then?
they put in 10x as much effort as blizzard, made a whole pvp expansion, pvp npc, lots of pvp modes, special bonuses you only get from pvp, all the customization and achievements
and
>dead on arrival
>not even a blip when it came out and then completely forgotten within a week

Because Path of the Exile is literally only played by people booty bothered by Diablo 3 and nobody else?

Even then, if Diablo 3's PvP was dead by now it wouldn't matter, the fact that Blizzard got away with not delivering on an advertised core feature of their game is what matters.

>I hate games where you are flying around wildly fast making split second decisions with wins or losses coming in the fraction of a second based purely on skill and hand-eye coordination
>I prefer the far superior games where you spend 40 minutes right clicking on nonplayer units one at a time every 10 seconds and then going afk as you watch your hero autoattack it slowly in order to earn a few coins so that I can win the 5 minutes of snails pace action that finally takes place

>tfw shapshifter druid in pvp

D2 had amazing PvP but dont go over the board

No mate, Warhammer Online had the greatest pvp of any game in history, fact.

thats not DAoC

it wasn't based on skill it was based purely on knowing how to do it. the number of people who played pvp was absolutely tiny and all you did 99% of the time as kill people in public games for no reason.

saying that it was "the best pvp" over something like ultima online, which you never played, is fucking luaghable

nah, enimga patch for diablo 2 was designed by ex- world of warcraft developers - everything after engima patch ruined diablo 2 - teleporting barbarians and war cry shouting sorceresses are pure cancer

that graph shows smiter, kicker and zealot being favored over plaguezon
how can we take that graph seriously?

>throw a plague java
>stand in it
>have fun melee opponents

nah it made it ten times more balanced and varied

so having a game where the classes were balanced and everyone had equal mobility and dozens of builds were viable was cancer
but having a game where the only viable build was bowazons spamming guided arrows that would permastun you until you're dead with 1 arrow because each one would knockback you and hit you 5 times in a row

path of exile has item creation and crafting that can break the game in terms of "skill damage" - if someone has better items then you then you will never kill them.

good luck living though it

as apposed to guided arrows being completely useless and never penetrating anything ever? lol your WoW dev update for D2 introduced screen clicking jav pokers that can melee you even if you arent on their screen with broken glitches - get real

they both had loot driven economies where richer players could use far better gear
thats not it


its the fact that in path of exile you could autoaim an attack that hits 20 times per second while dealing 2 billion damage per second while making you impossible to avoid or target and spraying the screen with so many projectiles the other guy lags out
while in diablo 2 no matter how much gear you had or big items, your level 99 amazon had the exact same mechanics as a level 18 amazon, you shot 1 guided arrow at a time, the only things that scaled were numbers

path of exile's mechanical scaling made pvp impossible, when you start getting engines that make you trigger a gem automatically 20 times per second or have 5 support gems firing 50 projectiles that flood the whole screen instantly

we all know enigma ruined pvp but got was it so fun to tp on top of someone with my necro army and just watch thme get fucked like a mutalisk stack

a 3.8k HP zon with 75% block, 50% dr and 63% dodge could stand afk letting a zealot attack her and he'd die to plague java faster than she does, even if he's got 90% chance to hit that means she has 91000 EHP
and if she starts walking around and chucking lightning furies that knockback him good luck

plague sucks because you can't go offensive with it so any ranged build can just kite you and never get hit in the first place, but melee builds cannot beat plague because they can't hit her without getting poisoned for 300k damage over 40 seconds

bowzons were perfectly viable after 1.10

good job addressing the javelin screen poke glitch that has never been fixed, enjoy getting melee'd in one hit from 3 screens away

I'm also pretty sure you get in range, you're dead
perma dodgelock and all

I loved the going hostile shit. That should be in every game IMO. Always made the baal runs more interesting :D

dodgelocking the zon doesn't unpoison you
she can just keep throwing plague javas and standing in the poison clouds, you can't approach her with melee builds without getting poisoned. She can literally just afk at that point, once you're at 1 hp her stormshield will kill you with its attacker takes damage. If she's really cheeky she could have a beast runeword on swap to turn into a werebear and melee you down
zons are incredibly tanky thanks to dodge passives. Nobody bothered with poison resist, so a plague would deal like 2500 HP per second for 40 seconds, your 5k HP build was dead in 2 seconds

>Diablo 2 had the greatest PvP of any online game in history
>what is amazon infinite repiercing arrows
>or glitched bear druids hitting faster than any animation
>or enigma pallys
>or smiteadins
>or hammerdins
>or ice sorcs
Lineage II had better pvp than the cluster fuck of d2 pvp

>Fact: Diablo 2 had the greatest PvP of any online game in history
Wrong.

>smiters
keep them at a range and don't let their charge connect, or have a defensive punishment ability like whirlwind if you do
>hammerdins
walk south lmao they'll never hit you
>ice sorcs
stack resists

>once you get plagued for an impossible amount of HP she just lightning jav glitch pokes you from 3 screens away before you get back into town
>game balance by wow developers

there was pretty much no plaguezons in pvp at all, they're not that good
I think I fought a single decent one in all the years I played D2

>"28371 Stones of Jordan have been sold to merchants"
>Every in the game stops what they were doing
>"Diablo Walks the Earth"
>people start partying up and hostiling each other left and right
>someone spawns diablo clone in cold plains
>massive FFA breaks out as people try to kill each other, get killed by diablo, try to nk around the waypoint, teams backstab each other
>fight goes on for 10 minutes before diablo is brought down and the annihilus claimed
>tfw realize no game will ever capture this feel again thanks to developers going carebear baby mode

put on absorb gear and nk the cheater, git gud etc

Hated it when playing HC.

Died innumerable times to teleporting sorcs spamming frost orb.

im sorry but does putting on t.gods stop a melee player from hitting me from 3 screens away with a bugged glitch? d2 is broken in its current state.

legit farcast was hard to do
hackers using farcast programs were annoying but they were easily dealt with because you could fully absorb charged strike with wisps+tgods and some stack so instead of 1 hit killing you they fully healed you

diablo 2 had safety mechanisms to prevent BM'ers from ruining games. If someone was cheating, you could just sorb them. Farcasters weren't even a problem, modding tmc hammerdins with predictive south teleports making your screen flash nonstop, those were a problem

you need a 3rd party program to far cast

theres no such glitch in diablo 2 you shitstain, thats diablo 3
farcast only made the charged bolts release at a distance, not actually connect the melee attack

theres no melee attacks in diablo 2 that could hit from beyond their intended distance. The game only checked for collisions when the skill deals its damage and thus you could never get hit by a ranged melee attack

thank you for addressing the facts that d2 has broken game mechanics that were introduced with the enigma patch developed by idiots from the WoW team that were too shit for WoW so they got kicked from the WoW dev team and were forced to "work on" Diablo 2 after the majority of blizzard north quit.
>that glitch doesnt exist
>the glitch only half exists
which is it?

there were no good pure plaguezons because plague couldn't hit casters
the only good zons were hybrids with plague as one of a number of attacks

>I don't know how it works and need it spoonfed to me
theres no glitch that lets melee attacks hit at a range
charged strike uses a normal basic melee attack (which cannot hit at a range) accompanied by a cast of charged bolt, same as how a sorceress casts it, except the glitch let those bolts be spawned at a range

since the only thing that could hit you at a range was the pure lightning damage, and that consisted of many instances of small amounts of damage, you could simply absorb it and negate it with integer absorb, which not only fully negated it but made it heal you

Where my Classic D2 niggas at? Fuck LoD niggas.

>the only good zons were hybrids with plague
just wat

...

Mmmmmmm dat javazon

lmao only thing ur shit mode was worth was classic rushing
good thing this was before blizzard went full jew so the whole game only cost a single extra $20 xpansion to play instead of 10 expansions and 50 microtransactions and the rest of the bullshit

what kind of potions is that guy carrying? full rejuvs are purple and super mana potions are striped, so it doesn't seem like either

this may be decent but there's a reason it wasn't popular back in the day
saying that the only good zons used plague makes you sound silly

private realm probably, some custom potion shit

>super mana potins are striped

Nigga what?

too lazy to actually save and upload the pic, but hydra-media.cursecdn.com/diablo.gamepedia.com/d/d6/D2Potions.jpg?version=3ae46c93e49bfd1f3a196e8336806ed2

Diablo 2 pvp wasn't that great. It was fun, but not anywhere near the greatest pvp experience.

But I fully agree that developers should stop destroying everything that goes outside their vision of what players should do, or something that gives you advantage in some situation. Of course, if a class dominates others in every situation that should be nerfed, but it's fine if everyone has their own niche where they are better than the average.

I've always had more fun in "wild" pvp where any unexpected can happen, like good old WoW world pvp and always hated instanced pvp where everything is always just sterile and repetitive. The best part of pvp is if it's unexpected and unpredictable.

only good plaguezons were hybrids
there were no good pure plaguers because its a shit build

understood you differently
fair enough, cool character

Man. I miss d2 pvp so badly. If only there was a public server without blizzards meddling

>first person to get a hit in oneshots the enemy
Yeah, such a great system.

pre 1.10
>chargedin
>FoHdin
>the sheer badassness of both bowzon and sorc, their kit was so satisfying to use and it looked so damn interesting and varied

post 1.10
>on that same badass kit aspect, bone necros and elemental druids were really cool
>charged bolt zons
>enchantress with 6 shael phase swords
>summon necs teleporting on top of people for that sweet burst from all minions at once
>bvc and wwsin, BY FAR the coolest archetypes I've ever seen in a game, especially WWsin
Man, fuck me wwsins were cool as fuck. Nothing even comes remotely close. There was something amazing about using a flying kick to teleport, doing a WW scratch and watching the person melt in 2 seconds to venom

Yeah, D2 had the most awesome pvp by far.

>tfw didn't give a shit about pvp but i loved doing hardcore pvm
playing on reddit's private server rn and i'm mid-70s on hardcore ladder (ladder resets in october), doing pretty well so far

how to spot a shitter

>be a 7000 hp 75% block 50% DR 20k defense barbarian with stacked 90/80/85/75% resists
>getting oneshot
?????

chargedins didn't exist in 1.09, charge moved at the same speed as running and dealt shit damage, it got its damage and speed drastically buffed in 1.10
same shit, FoH sucked dick in 1.09

all the pallys in 1.09 were zealots who would only duel other melee builds. 1.09 actually had better melee dueling than 1.10 with life leech working and a pretty good variety of melee builds, but caster dueling was 10x better in 1.10

Sorry, I meant everyone but the favorite OP class.

>tfw mine builds in PVP
PoE has awful pvp, and mines are really the only reasin needed to bring up to prove it.
At least it's got fun pvm

poe actually had builds with infinite loops that crashed the game or could be restricted to just deal a few trillion points of damage if used conservatively
how the shit is that supposed to be balanced for pvp

I think the infinite loops were patched after etup killed himself to one at #1 by like 500mil exp. But yea, the game is way to exploitable for pvp. Even bear trap causes so many issues it's not even funny.

>stealing items through pvp was patched out

thanks blizzard

>it grew into the main selling point for the game
Says fucking who?

even if there werent exploits or degenerate skills like traps
its too much of a clusterfuck

level 1 sorceress in diablo 2 shoots a linear projectile that deals some fire damage if it connects. The only thing she improves by level 99 is the ability to teleport and cast a bit faster, the rest is just numbers

level 1 witch in poe casts a linear fireball that hits some fire damage if it connects. level 80 witch is shooting 7 kinetic blasts that instantly hit 5 screens distance with aoe sprayed on everyone, moving at +200% speed and triggering cast on critical strike and herald skills to spread 100 more projectiles and aoe explosions everywhere while 20 minions are meatwalling and twenty different buff effects are doing their thing

thanks for speaking the truth, Dark Age of Camelot was truly fantastic at the time

says the vast majority of active players
refer to>pvm forum has 374k posts
>pvp forums have a combined 10 million posts

>skelenecro before the nerf
>teleport around with massive 40+ skeletons right ontop of you
>one shot anyone you touched

Yea, pretty much. Not only are some base mechanics near impossible to balance for pvp, but with everything added in it's a massive clusterfuck that should have never been given development time

>nerf
>can only have 1/3 as many skeletons, but they deal 20x the damage

it was a massive buff but they lowered the amount of summon spam to reduce lag

works just fine for a PvM game about grinding gear on an endless treadmill
its almost like PoE was literally made by pvm players from d2 who never dueled

The lag was part of the strategy. Git gud.

I'm not really disappointed in that aspect considering I was one of the people that pvp'd extremely rarely. Ubers was 10x more fun for me.

>there are literal wimps who didn't main Barb

L O L
O
L

I will always regret not being able to play Diablo 2 in the first few years of launch

D2 pvp was so fucking fun for me. Some high school lads and I used to play the shit out of this, and I was the top PvP dog among them (I wasnt even very fucking good), so whenever they were getting their asses kicked or needed help or whatever I was always the guy that got called in to bring the mayhem.

My favourite thing about the PvP in this game was just that the most prepared person could always win. People talking about res/absorb gear stacking in your stash just really brings me back. Having multiple high levels so you could switch around to them. Shit you could even just totally throw honour out the window and get on a tanky pal or something with a shitload of full rejuvs and just scumbag your way to victory.

he literally posted the evidence in the picture, he was not being mean

Barb is way too gear dependant, especially when it comes to Attack Rating. Good luck playing him solo from normal - hell.

There are a lot of people complaining about enigma. Classic is just as good without runewords. You have to work a bit harder for rolls on your gear but the fun is still there. Wrecking shit with a BVA executioner sword barb is one of my favorite memories of the game. Good luck finding one with -30 requirements though

It was fun on ballruns for me, and I had a blast playing with my pala and necro buddies
I remember 2nd act on hell was the time it started to get kind of tough
welp, if I ignore Duriel on normal

>not winning in pvp because you have so many skeletons that you cause your opponent's computer to crash.

>Rogue vs Rogue duels in TBC wasn't the pinnacle of 1v1 PvP

Lol

>Holywaring about D2 builds
>2016
>Realizing that was the most fun game you've ever played

JUST

>tfw there will never be a good Diablo sequel
>get Path of Garbage and World of Diablocraft instead

Feels really bad man. Every like 3 months I come back to Diablo 2 for some reason and run some new characters. It's almost like the changing of the seasons for me. Game was really a masterpiece

That's what I loved about EVE. I hated the game, really felt like a second job, but the entire community and interactions are great.

It is encouraged to scam people. Where they draw the line is when you encourage people to buy PLEX (in game item you can buy with $ that extends your membership with a month) and then steal it from them banned. Scamming people out of their PLEX that they bought of their own accord is allowed.

Such a great environment, shame the game itself is such a snorefest.

>level 12 sorceress in Act 1 town
>very high level barbarian drops a yellow staff while he's sorting out his inventory
>i grab the staff and run to my stash
>barbarian is writing in caps in (presumably) German
>i type "I'm sorry" and quit game
I still feel bad about this to this day. It really was an amazing staff. I was able to use it at level 15 or so but it could easily have been the best short stave in the game. I can't remember how many points it put in different spells but it was a lot. I sometimes wonder what that guy did after that happened and if he still thinks about it

I wouldnt feel too bad about it, I don't think there is any actually good rare staff in d2. Maybe for leveling, but nothing too dramatic.

>go to drop swap some set shit to a new character
>someone with full vigor aura teleports across the town and grabs it
this happened today

I always asked someone in my national bnet chat room to help me transfer stuff. Although the actually expensive stuff I only did with a friend.

Bunch of bros in chat though, free boosts, help, even items whenever I asked.

>Best pvp

Enigma killed pvp

That's right bitches. We made our own rules. This is how I got conclave made in warframe. I cited d2.

>the year 3000-984
>not having someone to xfer with, or your own bot in a mule game always ready

its basically a faster paced league of legends, its where i learned my non meta builds in league. cc, lifesteal and dps baby! haha

but that pvp in that game sucked if someone had crazy good gear u were dead.

I didn't read any of that OP

but yes you're right, diablo 2 is a good game

>step through portal
>hc-perma ded

Great PvP.

>get group with a guy and his friend
>Get into argument over who should get the big bad sword
>he squleches you and comes in for the attack
>15 minutes later server wide civil war has exploded
>Gold is changing hands like we're playing hot potatoe.

If you can't create pass-protected games to sort your stuff, you deserve everything you get. 5 min in a game means it stays open for awhile, even if noone is in it. Never lost any items back when I played.

>5 min in a game means it stays open for awhile
I think the deletion of old games was something that happened EVERY 5 minutes or so. Meaning if you happened to go switch character just seconds before before the wipe, you were out of luck.

But this is just the impression I was under, I can't confirm one way or the other.

Ultima Online had great depth for pvp. Surprised it doesn't get more love here.

>Every like 3 months I come back to Diablo 2 for some reason
It's like a special kind of crack that only one dealer has access to.

>class-based pvp
>good
It was fun but that's it.