How the fuck do people not see this as the peak of the series? Jesus Christ this is incredible

They set you up to think with the zone of the endars 2 demo you'd be playing with snake and a variety of locations. Actual game comes out and you play this character hideo made based on girls desire for an attractive character along with the shell being a repetitive layout. Solidus is a shitty snake character to add to the series that's all but forgotten after that game. MGS3 is basically hideos apology.

And for good reason. He sucks.

>I didn't care for the shitty too deep for you crap
Hahaha how old are you?

he's cool tho

>wah it wasn't what was expected

I love MGS2 but it has its issues

>gameplay dips in quality after Tanker chapter
>backtracking
>swimming section
>escort section
>Rose and Raiden love talk is boring
>Stillman is a dull character
>no Mei Ling
>few boss battles, Fortune doesn't even count
>Dead Cell members are uninteresting compared to FOXHOUND and the Cobra Unit

MGS3 beats it in most aspects but story.

Weak rebuttal

how is 2 supposed to be better than 3?

And you have a weak argument

How? He's a doofus.

Gameplay in 3 was better. 2's story is the best of the series

>better gameplay
>FAR better story
>better Codec conversations

What the fuck man fat man is to MGS2 what the end is to mgs3, that is, they're both bosses that involve more than your typical shoot until he dies. Then again this is coming from someone who didn't know you could knock Fatman over with enough repeated shots, so I definitely had to keep up with his bomb game. And besides, you want to talk about bosses having no personality, I'm pretty sure al the fear says is the fear and fear.

literally all 3 of these are false

stop being contrarian faggots

It really is incredible but people disliked it because you don't play as a super badass and the story was too ambitious in its themes. With mgs3 Kojima gave plebs what they wanted, badass Snake with a 007 story.

Actually MGS2 is preferred by most people who aren't just casual game consumers.

I actually like MGS2 the most. I didn't play it when it came out though, so I wasn't butthurt about the raiden bait and switch.

you got a single fact to back that up?

core MGS fans universally prefer 3, and rightly so

Setting and level design isn't as cool good as 1 or 3s

I still do like it the most though.

I actually disagree, almost all of 3's good gameplay elements are elements 2 brought to the series. It takes those and admittedly makes some minor improvements, but nothing in my opinion that puts it on the level of 1 and 2 in terms of what gameplay they brought to the series. The gameplay mechanics that 3 DID add camo, injuries, food etc. are all pure gimmicks which add nothing genuine to the game and basically amount to busywork where you must go into a menu periodically if you want to play optimally and change a setting, though even then the effects for failing to do so are very minor.

3 is good in a lot of ways, but it is basically a retread of 2. If you look at it in isolation, yes it might have better gameplay in the end. But it deserves much less praise, because it innovated much less and brought nothing itself, it just made marginal improvements on what was already there, unlike 1 and 2.

Gameplay is great but the way the game is structured bugs me.

It feels like the latter half of the game has no stealth. Instead it's all boss fights, killing people with a sword, under water escort shit, and sniping.

I enjoy the vr missions more because they really let the stealth mechanics shine

>core MGS fans universally prefer 3
you got a single fact to back that up?
Here's one for me: check the aggregates:
metacritic.com/game/playstation-2/metal-gear-solid-2-sons-of-liberty
metacritic.com/game/playstation-2/metal-gear-solid-3-snake-eater

MGS3 did have better codec moments I'll give it that. Paramedic especially, the box convo with sigint, but paramedics calls definitely made snake sound like a moron, which is honestly why I like her calls the most. Better gameplay though, I think that's a coin toss. When 3 came out the biggest complaint was the camera, but even with subsistence I felt like there was some bullshit guard placement, the forest after you get through the place where EVA was shocked is just one I can name off the tol of my head. I never had these issues with 2, but that might be because of the radar.

How the hell is Fatman as good as The End? If you figure out he can get staggered with multiple shots (you learn that if you use the codec) the battle becomes very simple and he barely gets time to put out bombs.

The Fear is the dullest of the Cobras but they all still have more interesting and unique powers than Dead Cell, of which only has 3 members

>metacritic
kek are you even serious? MGS3 is like in the top 3 out of every "TOP 100 PS2 GAMES LIST" EVER

a lot of the sigint conversations were straight up. each character has their own purpose and dynamic. codecs in 3 are like, one of the best fucking things in vidya EVER.
They taste pretty good.

mgs2 was easy, guards can't see 5 feet in front of them, the environments are small and uniform, and you got the fucking radar. run through once, run through again when you backtrack or whatever, that's it.

MGS3 is literally a near perfect game. 2 can't even come close.

I didn't say it was as good, just that he is to 2 what the end is to 3. Bosses with unique elements to them. As for the codec, aside from psycho mantis I never used it much, that's why I didn't know about the shooting him to knock him down.

>like, one of the best fucking things in vidya EVER

this is the person you're trying to have a discussion with

you got a single fact to back that up? I provided one.

>2's story is the best of the series

Love this meme.

>guards can only see five feet in front of them

Did you play on extreme or the mgs1 snake missions? Shit that's another thing, substance has more VR missions than any other metal gear, granted its missing some of the oddball ones like mystery, and the grenade missions are horseshit, but you gotta admit substance had a one on subsistence with bonus content.

bro, look up any big PS2 list, take your pick. 2 is always close to no. 10 and 3 is always close to no. 3

the story doesn't have to be good for the statement to be true

It had the best gameplay in my eyes (although 5 was good aside from open world).

But the whole "let's just repeat the exact same story and relive the first game" was its weak point. MGS will always have the best story for me.

>Repetitive fetch quests and backtracking to the same areas.

>Terrible controls and camera angles.

>Ridiculously convoluted poorly paced narrative, even by MGS standards.

Yep, truly the peak of the franchise.

Did anyone else felel that Snake completely changed character in this game?
In MGS, he was always this tough guy with a soft core. In 2, he's really cold and acts kind of robotic for most of the game. He's just a really boring character in 2.

So you don't have a single fact?

ok lemme repost your links to
>METACRITIC
where 3 has a higher user score than 2

MGS3's story was the least horribly written of all the MGS games, though it had that James Bond feel going for it, so that might've had something to do with it.

Yes, like I said casual gamers like 3's unchallenging blockbuster feeling.

oh i get it, "professional" "reviewers" are supposed to be "trustworthy" "hardcore" "gamers" when it fits your narrative, while users are casuals with shit taste

"kys"

Is metacritic hardcore gamers? Interesting!

>First 1/3 of the game is literally bomb hunting
>Only 1 good boss in the entire game, and it is just another fucking bomb hunt
>Raiden is in fact a faggot, not even complaining that you don't get to play as Solid Snake
>Swimming sections
>Struts are boring as fuck
>Story tries too hard to be a meta-mindfuck instead of a cool as hell espionage story
>The best examples of level design are all blown in the Tanker mission alone
>EE
>Introduced the cancerous Tranq Pistol to the series

The game is fine, but I have zero clue how so many of you hipster faggots can excuse all of the GLARING AS FUCK flaws in the game just because the story did something kind of neat.

i'm asking you, genius. is metacritic full of proper "reviews" from critics? look at the 100's that they gave out AFTER ONLY HAVING PLAYED THE TANKER LEVEL

all these posts and you could have actually written something of value to defend your shit taste contrarian opinion

3 rules
2 drools
kys
check yourself before you wreck yourself

Because raiden, mostly corridor, and mgs4 made the events true so any weight it had with the plot and references to vr feeling so real, emotion engine, resetting the console and campbell glitch were pointless

What facts do you have?

The tranq pistol was perfectly fine, it became shit when it suddenly let you become almost invisible, and that as a MGS3 mechanic.

pretty spot on

well at least some of your points have a specific purpose.
The quality decaying after the tanker chapter, he backtracking, the dead cell members and boss battles where made imperfect on purpose, Kojima wanted to play with peoples expectations to convey a critique on fanbase and contemporary vidya, you where suppose to feel like playing a rehash of the first metal gear, and feel betrayed because of this, that way you learn about the dangers of the memes, not because a game is made by a successful team means that the next will be awesome, thats why it goes ape shit at the end, is the game becoming a free medium that goes his on way.

Basically all this, but I don't see the problem with the tranqs. I think they were too powerful and should not work instantly even for head shots. There should be a minimum 1-2 minute wait for it to take effect to balance out how over powered it is.

>The most OP version of the tranq pistol in any of the Metal Gear games
>"it's fine"

No, it really isn't.

>No depreciating suppressor
>Ammo up the fucking wazoo
>Enemies literally wont react to it in any negative way when a body shot connects
>Literally fucking noiseless as far as the enemies are concerned
>Built in laser so you know precisely where your shots will land, every time

>it was supposed to be shit all along
so why complain when somebody says it's shit?

are you really this much oh a hipster MUH POSTMODERN faggot

3s story becomes worse and worse the more you actually think about it.

MGS2 was the last game where they actually tried to make the enemies not stupid cartoons and properly integrate them into the story.

Naked Snake as a character is also a HUGE downgrade from Solid Snake. Literally a watered down re-tread in the worst way possible.

>Liquid possessing Ocelot through an arm
>not a stupid cartoon

>changing my meaning to fit the argument
not happening familino

10:30 and I'm debating if I want to do a run through of the tanker chapter. I gotta be up at 6 in the AMs.

I had almost forgotten the fact that MGS2 also has a mch better score than 1 or 3.

I wake up at 6 but I'm up at 130

What are some other franchises with cool and crazy storylines? Not muh realism, stuff like MGS and DMC

Kingdom Hearts lol

Resident Evil
Especially 4

2's story becomes less and less canon the more you think about it because muh meta

>unkillable bimbo has a weird relationship with a bisexual "vampire" who used to fuck her dad
>otacon fucked his mom or whatever, can't remember
>rose
>the patriots
stop

naked snake is a fun lovable guy, like a puppy, always excited to play, always excited to talk on the codec, it's a joy

solid is the "you can't know what's right on the battlefield" type of guy that makes you roll your eyes all the time he opens his mouth. literally half of his personality is just contradicting the other at all times, ever since the 1st game

well im not saying its shit, im saying that the shit part makes the good part (tanker, ending) even better,the game is all about embracing Postmodernism

Having Otacon turn from a geeky guy who likes mechas and anime in MGS1 into someone who was statutorily raped by his mom in MGS2 was fucked. Kojima straight up assassinated that character.

>the shit part makes the good part even better
>embracing Postmodernism
ok you masochistic weirdo

in the meantime i'll go play a good game

Because they're sub 100 IQ plebs

MGS3:S > MGS2:S > MGS2 > MGS3

As a person who thinks MGS2 is the best game of all time, please don't just namedrop postmodernism without understanding what the game is about. The game is a analysis and commentary on the creation of a sequel, and how we consume culture and pass on information.

>2's story becomes less and less canon the more you think about it because muh meta
lol no

and no again on Solid Snake, he's a pretty consistent character across 4 games while still having significant developments that make sense.

>naked snake is a fun lovable guy, like a puppy, always excited to play, always excited to talk on the codec, it's a joy
He's boring as fuck senpai, and a CIA agent with the mind of a teenager is a huge joke after seeing someone like Solid Snake who actually carries himself like he's seen some shit AND has a personality to boot. Naked has literally nothing interesting to say throughout the entire story, whereas Solid could always interact an bounce well off other cast members.

This

>don't just namedrop postmodernism without understanding what the game is about. The game is a analysis and commentary on the creation of a sequel, and how we consume culture and pass on information.

He's unambiguously heroic in 2 to contrast Raiden, and his own persona in 1. Also character development.

it's not even funny how fucking stupid you are
>lol no
ok

>solid is consistent
he's not, he is bipolar af, always stuck between the "i wanna be a smooth and charming fun guy" and "gritty cynical weathered veteran". the entire series is actually like that, which is why anyone who takes MGS's story seriously and ignores the tone shifts between serious and silly is a fucking retard

naked snake is fun. he has moments of sadness etc (the boss), but he's just fun. he can be accepted as being consistent with the game's level of seriousness, which is not much.

if you take solid seriously you need to grow the fuck up

How am I wrong?

It is pretty confusing. I still think it's mostly because of the Raiden thing. What I find interesting is the previous game had tons of strangeness going on to yet people only noticed it with MGS2. Which makes me think it must be because you play as Raiden for the majority of it.

However MGS3 is the last great game of the series. It has a lot of good going for it and the CQC was a great addition that makes the series better. Everything after 3 is far inferior.

>The game is a analysis and commentary on the creation of a sequel, and how we consume culture and pass on information.
this by all means can be considered postmodern

MGS2 cannot exist in a vacuum

in MGS1 Snake only gets super serious once he realizes how much he's been left out of the loop regarding intel, he's always rather flirty and quick-witted as a base personality, but knows when to get serious. in MGS2 he's alot more dutiful but still playful, and in MGS4 he's more despondent but the traits are still there. He's a very consistent character throughout all his appearances, unlike a certain someone.

I think you should at least play MGS1 again an actually pay attention

>if you take Naked Snake/BB seriously you need to grow the fuck up

fixed. Probably the shittiest character in the series next to Quiet or The Boss.

i was just playing mgs1 the other week
you literally can't guess which way solid's conversations are gonna go, either playful or cynical and talking about how he's damaged and the battlefield, the battlefield changes a man, when you're on the battlefield you can't second guess yourself, etc etc battlefield etc

i don't take anyone in the mgs series seriously
which is why i like naked snake

you need to stop regarding solid as a "serious" or "well written" character

The point is he's infinitely better written than Naked Snake/Big Boss, and your criticsm of his character is so unfounded I'm not convinced at all you put much thought into it.

Furthermore, Kojima himself washed out of giving any meaningful transition from Naked Snake to Big Boss; for all that shitty backstory he gave with the Patriots he's still the same flat character we saw from the beginning.

In the end I'd attribute all of this to Kojimas poor writing though, as he could be salvaged by someone with actual skill

>Kojimas poor writing
>but solid is good
just stop

every character in the series is garbage, even for vidya standards. we only like it because we can get into the 'MGS state of mind'.

please stop taking mgs seriously, you're looking like an autist

but hey, what do i care, you actually think mgs2 is good. the joke's on you.

>flat character

He's the greatest soldier that ever lived.

Ah, so you cant back your shit up but now you're above it all right?

Typical, run along now

chill out, autist, there's nothing to back up

you're taking a non-serious game seriously and getting buttblasted when others don't

>muh "more mechanics is better mechanics" meme
MGS3 was when the series took a turn. What came later was just as enjoyable as its predecessor, just different. I'd argue it became a bit more mainstream, as well.

Nah, you're the one who started with me when you didnt have to. If you want to wig out so bad then stop posting, no need to make a fool of yourself any further.

only because he's not Solid (or BB)
I really wish they'd have done more youngster Solid games. Seemed like MGS2 was the start of Snake's "I'm too old for this shit" attitude. You can tell even in the Tanker mission with his serious bantz with Huey

Old Snakes story shouldve been MGS3 and just end the series there

The prequels were largely uneccessary and did more harm than good

My biggest complaint is that Koji gave Raiden a woman's ass. It just doesn't look right

>MG1 Snake is a rookie on his first mission
>MG2 is Snake's second mission ever
>MGS1 Snake is already retired and dragged back into doing missions initially against his will

What a career.

But I do. Been playing the series yearly since I first played 2 around when it came out, it is my favorite for sure. Never gets old.

I don't care if he took some pointers or themes from 1984, the fact that he made it in video games form makes him baller as fuck in my eyes. MGS2 is incredible.

>decent titles such as MG Ac!d 1 & 2 are noncanon simply because they weren't directed by Kojima
I can almost understand Ghost Babel's exclusion since I don't think MG2:SS happened in its universe but excluding and disregarding decent games that don't even alter the overarching canon is fucking dumb and pretentious.

Ghost Babel is for all intents and purposes MGS1.5

Why does the Shell portion of the game have a tutorial but the Tanker doesn't?

It's an intentionally odd decision to emphasise that Raiden is a noob compared to the veteran snake

I think you're underestimating how much the increase in the enemies vision range, and the lack of radar system really changed up the gameplay.

I'm replay in 4. Anyone think sending raiden off with him actually dying in act 4 would have been better?

The Shell is boring.

Anything with less of emo raiden would be better. One of the worst parts of the game.

Raiden has every right to be an emo edge lord, nothing wrong with that.

I love MGS 2, but the carrying on about it here is embarrassing. You have the intellect of a 14 year old boy if you're that blown away by MGS 2. It's exponentially embarrassing for every year over 14 years old you are. As you grow and mature and learn, you will take it down a notch. Well, some of you. I know most of you are trapped in a permanent state of rampant retardation & are insufferable faggots till the end.

That's a lot of words to say nothing besides spew mean words, something a child would do. I just replayed the game again this year and it's still great, I read a good number of books monthly too. Really you have nothing to say, MGS2 is by far one of the best works gaming as a medium has to offer.

...

You shouldn't post pictures of yourself on Cred Forums, especially revealing ones buddy.

>Rose's hysterical sobbing whenever you get a die as Raiden
muh dick

Besides Kojima's social commentary, pic related, I still say MGS is the gold standard.

is he "our guy"?

...

>there will never be MG game where you play as a covert agent for Cypher in 70s with appearances by GZ-edgelord-psychopath Skullface as your rival/senpai

...

Olga a qt

>unironically playing mary sue titles
kek at ur life

Raiden is far from a Mary Sue, shitposter-kun

Maybe I could see that if they removed anything dealing with Emma.

>there will never be MG game where you play as Solid Snake in the 90s with appearances by pre-cyber-ninja Grey Fox as your mentor/senpai

I can't decide which I like more, MGS 1, 2 or 3. All of them are great in their own regards, but MGS2 is special in how complex the idea was, how crafted the psychology on long-time MGS (fans) players is in that game. It's a game that doesn't focus on primary process and the twist of the game is not even its real twist. A pinnacle of mindfuck, everything working together perfectly, and the player is not spoonfed, the game doesn't care if you'll understand it or not.

Test

MGS3 ruined MGS. Nothing added in MGS3 actually improved the game, it just bloated it with bullshit.

>Stamina & food
Functionally just bullshit that makes you go through menus to cap your stamina bar with every so often. Just a bullshit "SO REAL" simulation element.

>Better soldier vision & hearing
Bogged down the game speed in comparison to MGS2 and does nothing to the route planning & execution that's the core of MGS. In MGS the player is simply entering an area, planning out a route to evade soldiers and timing their movement. The enhanced soldier vision can be removed by autisitically slogging through camo menus to achieve the highest camo possible and the enhanced hearing does little more than simply slow down the game. Just a simulation element that makes the game worse.

>Camo
Menu garbage that does nothing but make the game more realistic aka shittier. Adds nice easter eggs

>CQC
There is 0 reason to make the already powerful PC even stronger with CQC.

MGS3 fucking ruined MGS

The direction of MGS3 and it's subsequent titles are probably the only way for MGS to go. The route & execute core of MGS is too simple to build upon significantly so realistic TECHNOLOGY moments are the only thing that's left to build upon. Really, all the extra VR missions showcased how far you could go with the gameplay of MGS and honestly I think fans of MGS gameplay got all the VR missions they could want.

I'd say two of these is false and that is better Codec conversations. I found them just irritating to listen to.
But it has for certain better gameplay even tho you don't have so many gadgets as in the third one. The camera is just much more comfortable. The third mgs's camera is just annoying and the lack of minimap does not help.
Better story is debatable, but I enjoyed third one's much more.

something about the gameplay is just so lackluster. I dunno if it's the envornment or how off Raidens movements feel or what.

and that meltdown at the end- you either love it or you think it's pathetic. I'm among the latter.

How's it pathetic?

because the gameplay is pretty crap. On paper it's good, and some of the level design can also be good, but the constant ceaseless gimmicks drag it down constantly.

The boss fights are shit, the bosses are shit, and they're shit on purpose because it's all for the sake of setting up the S3 twist. It's a good twist for sure but that didn't justify the majority of the game being unfun and tedious.

>He's a Soliton Radar casual
git gud

I played it when it came out and aside from the tanker and the final segment of the game everything was underwhelming
>inb4 "I-It was meant t-to be s-shit"

I don't care, intentional shit is still shit
big shell was one of the most boring enviroments I had to suffer through

2 is for men.
3 is for children.

no its not you just dont get what it means

2 is for manchildren.
3 is for children.

bad level design, bad player character, lame bosses (in terms of battle and personality), and the game goes to shit after Asenal Gear

I've never once been so sure I'm the smartest person in a thread as I have right now. I wonder what your IQs are.

>tripfag
>shit taste
not surprising

>and the game goes to shit after Asenal Gear
>game goes to shit when it ends

Alrighty then.

It ends on a stupid note where the Patriot AI rants on and on and on.

but due to the "I NEED SCISSORS 61!!!!!" bullshit earlier, I didn't care so I used it's rant to use the restroom and get another soda

Found the simpleton.

How is he a simpleton for walking out of the room when the AI is speaking?

The Arsenal Gear segment is the justification for all the hours of boring bullshit you had to put up with for the rest of the game. If you're not paying attention then you're missing out on the whole point of the game.

>The Arsenal Gear segment is the justification for all the hours of boring bullshit you had to put up with for the rest of the game

with more boring bullshit?

>WOW so deep, so meta, so philosophical, so intelliegent

It's a clusterfuck of ideas glued together that the 'I'm a smart gamer because I'm very smart. You wouldn't understand because it's smart' crowd cream their little undies over.

In reality, the characters are all really whiny and insufferable.When fuck all makes sense, it is passed of as nanomachines, meta or 'it's a simulation of previous events'.

The idea of leaving a legacy in the world could have been good, but was handled poorly and had to be outright explained at the end.

Gameplay was fine, boss fights were awful, setting was shit except for the tanker. All in all it's good game with plenty of flaws. It's sad that it gives people who like it this weird, unwarranted sense of inflated ego.

3 is a more cohesive video game experience, even with it's flaws. It knows what it's about and when to not take itself so seriously.

by explaining what all the prior bullshit was for

>by explaining what all the prior bullshit was for

a Solid Snake Simulation, wooooo

This is why Kojima shouldn't be a writer. He has good ideas but he just can't tell a story.

>3 is a more cohesive video game experience, even with it's flaws. It knows what it's about and when to not take itself so seriously.

plus it doesn't try to be deep after hitting a lot of acid

>When fuck all makes sense, it is passed of as nanomachines, meta or 'it's a simulation of previous events'.

Can you point to me an instance where this happens in MGS2 besides codec calls being done via nanomachines?

>MGS
One of the best games of its era, probably the first one to give the player a movie-like experience in an era where cut scenes weren't still so abused.

>MGS 2
Let's copy paste MGS plot, pull out all the cool bosses and mix it all with a bishonen MC.
A couple of good ideas (freezing bombs, downloading maps).
It takes itself way less seriously than the original, overloaded with cameos and references.

>MGS 3 is MGS 2 on steroids.
Better plot, better mechanics, even worse in cameos and references.

>Let's copy paste MGS plot, pull out all the cool bosses and mix it all with a bishonen MC.
b-but it's so deep and meta!

I think the average MGS player was too young to appreciate MGS2 when it was first released, myself included.

>When fuck all makes sense
Name one thing, ONE THING that doesn't make sense.

The fucking story is absolutely convoluted

metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Big_Shell_Incident

Frikkin Y2K, lol

Rose is unironically one of the best MGS grills

>Lel, Vamp can run on water, just because.
>Kek, Liquid is still alive because his corpse's arm is attached to someone else
>Jaja, this is all a simulation to train new Solid Snakes and nothing more. We're just manipulating world events to train dudes to be like Snake.
>Arsenal Gear

Show us the truth now that you're older, senpai.
Show us.
Up until then, the most relevant thing I remember is Otacon telling Snake not to jack off in front of gravure model posters.

The Solid Snake Simulation was just a microcosm for the whole S3 plan, dumbass.

question, does this shit emulate well on pcsx2?

>peak of the series
>not peace walker

Yeah.

"Ooh look, we're proving that we can control everything, how scary are we?"

That's so much better

Ugh

What about Fortune's dramatic premises thrown under the bus at the end, or the fact that Fat Man has absolutely no reason to be there.

Actually it's the only game where the enemy special unit has no real motivation except his leader, the lamest fights and the lamest designs.

>>Lel, Vamp can run on water, just because.
>>Kek, Liquid is still alive because his corpse's arm is attached to someone else
So how can a guy dislocate his arms and climb up a vertical tree? How can a guy control bees? Why can Volgin control electricity? Why does Fury turn into a flaming supernatural entity after being killed? Sorrow is a ghost. Mantis has telekinesis, Metal Gear always has supernatural element. Are you a liberal by any chance?
>i'll turn a blind eye when something i like commits the same sins

>>Jaja, this is all a simulation to train new Solid Snakes and nothing more. We're just manipulating world events to train dudes to be like Snake.
The S3 plan wasn't to produces soldiers on par with Solid Snake.
>Ocelot was not told the whole truth, to say the least. We rule an entire nation. Of what interest would a single soldier, no matter how able, be to us?

>Arsenal Gear
Yeah, what about it?

Am I arguing with a child?

just get the pc version instead

Wow I didn't know there was a fucking PC version

Wasn't the whole Liquid's arm thing a ploy by Ocelot to fool The Patriots?

>Actually it's the only game where the enemy special unit has no real motivation
Dead Cell wanted to get revenge on the Patriots for framing them for the mass murder of civilians. Fortune also wanted revenge on Solid Snake because Ocelot murdered her father on the tanker which Snake was framed for.

>Lel, Vamp can run on water, just because.

This is actually a well done element and you're bitching about it? Vamp gets shot and killed, Fortune's tears fall on him and comes to life. Vamp shows the ability to run on water. When you fight him, he's in a chamber filled with water and can swim in it whereas Raiden would die in it due to its properties. When you see him next, he comes out of the water to attack Emma. He has a special link to water that doesn't need to be explained, just a neat motif.

>Kek, Liquid is still alive because his corpse's arm is attached to someone else

Yes, and? Vulcan Raven froze Snake with a spirit raven. Psycho Mantis threw chairs around the room and possessed a human being.

>Jaja, this is all a simulation to train new Solid Snakes and nothing more. We're just manipulating world events to train dudes to be like Snake.

Selection for Societal Sanity you dolt.

Is that the only thing you took away from the conversation with them at the end?

MGS1 was very much still a video of its time where nobody batted an eye at supernatural shit like that
MGS3 does not take itself nearly as seriously as MGS2 and is downright cheesy at times so stuff like that doesn't look so out of place and dumb like in MGS2

I think i'm arguing with someone who had their feelings hurt by my post.

In hindsight, yes. It's explained in a later game though.

>Rose is unironically one of the best MGS grills

how is being an annoying bitch make her the best?

Explain S3 then. I can't wait for this from a stereotypical MGS2 'IQ of a million' fan

Then MGS3 expects us to have tears in our eyes when we kill The Boss and the it's revealed she was actually a Mary Sue. Every Metal Gear game has ridiculous moments and then expects us to take it seriously.
>but i like it so i'm going to ignore the sins i criticized mgs2 for
Go support Killary Clinton, fag.

figures, MG2 fanboys are from Cred Forums

The only thing keeping Sons of Liberty from being my favorite in the franchise is how cringe Rose and the bosses are. I can deal with Raiden being a fuccboi because he isn't that bad, but the whole Rose character and subplot, along with those retarded bosses really brought the overall game quality down for me.

but MGS2 is anti-authoritatian

Explain...what? The characters say what it is.

Colonel : We are formless. We are the very discipline and morality that
Americans invoke so often. How can anyone hope to eliminate us?
As long as this nation exists, so will we.

Raiden : Cut the crap! If you're immortal, why would you take away
individual freedoms and censor the Net?

Rose : Jack, don't be silly.

Colonel : Don't you know that our plans have your interests -- not ours --
in mind?

Raiden : What?

Rose : Jack, listen carefully like a good boy!

Colonel : The mapping of the human genome was completed early this century.
As a result, the evolutionary log of the human race lay open to
us.

Rose : We started with genetic engineering, and in the end, we succeeded
in digitizing life itself.

Colonel : But there are things not covered by genetic information.

Raiden : What do you mean?

Colonel : Human memories, ideas. Culture. History.

Rose : Genes don't contain any record of human history.

Colonel : Is it something that should not be passed on? Should that
information be left at the mercy of nature?

Rose : We've always kept records of our lives. Through words, pictures,
symbols... from tablets to books...

Colonel : But not all the information was inherited by later generations. A
small percentage of the whole was selected and processed, then
passed on. Not unlike genes, really.

I can't paste the whole thing because it goes over the word count, but it's right there in the game. Here's the script.

ign.com/faqs/2005/metal-gear-solid-2-son-of-liberty-premium-package-game-script-538904

What are you asking about specifically?

No, Ocelot really was being possessed by Liquid in MGS2. Between 2 and 4 he get's the arm removed because he was getting spooked by the possessions. He has it replaced with a cyborg arm, hence why his arm in 4 IS a cyborg arm.

>uses ad hominem rather than countering my arguments
What a surprise.

It's a system that will allow them to accomplish anything. On a whim they decided to recreate the Shadow Moses incident, so the system caused the Big Shell incident. Now, on a whim, they can do anything they want. It's a system that will generate and manipulate people into performing anything they want.

You're better off emulating PS2 if you got a good rig, the MGS2 has serious compatibility issues (it could still work well, if you're lucky, and it's patched) and setting up the controller is anything but a piece of cake.

Not him but I'm from Cred Forums and MGSV was my favorite.

>go to africa
>kidnap dindus
>brainwash them and force them to be your private army
>use them as canon fodder around the world to get rich
>get to walk around mother base beating slaves as they thank you

If I knew how to mod, I'd turn mother base into a beautiful colonial plantation.

Campy stories can have serious elements and be ok.
Serious stories cannot have campy elements without looking completely out of place.

It's amazing how defensive people like you get when their baby is not treated as the greatest thing ever.

She has the best ass of all the MGS girls, that's for sure

>What a surprise.

you brought up the Cred Forums shit first

Alright, thanks. I had played a bit of MGS3 and it emulates OK too.

The Ocelot possession stuff is not explained until after MGS2 so that point is moot.

So S3 is exactly what I said: "OOH we can control everything, how scary"

Why does a plot this good have to be ruined by boss characters that are so painfully retarded??

The whys and hows are the interesting bit.
You can trivialise anything by condensing it to one sentence.

>user doesn't want to laugh and grow fat

Yes but while I used an ad hominem, I also countered your argument. You did not, because you have no argument.

So you admit MGS3 is garbage?

Kojima grew up and learned much from the best American films.

MGS2 was his way of giving back to the Americans, unfortunately, most of us are actually fucking stupid and cannot begin to comprehend the messages he wants to tell.

If you can understand this game, you will know that, without a doubt, MGS2 is the pinnacle of the series.

>Implying you don't want to be fat

The whys and hows are convoluted nonsense which goes back to my first point that the story is a clusterfuck.

Is that supposed to be good?
S3 is proof that the Patriots control everything. Ok great. Not a good story.

the ending is the only good thing about the game
if kojima was shyamalamadingdong, mgs2 would be his sixth sense

...

It's directly explained at the end of the game and the player also experiences how it works through the whole middle 2/3rds of the game.

only game that made me actually think that internet should be supervised, our worlds meme feeling sick.

>Is that supposed to be good?

It's not good? Raiden begins the game as a man trying to emulate Solid Snake. Over the course of the game he learns instead to be his own man, and decides to pass on the things he deems are right to his child and leave the notion of imitating Snake behind. It's simple, and extremely effective.

Raiden : I'm here because I was assigned to this mission, not because I
want to. If I could, I'd be out of here in a second. How could
you come back to all this? Why keep fighting?

Snake : There's something my best friend said to me once.

Raiden : Wha...?

Snake : We're not tools of the government or anyone else. Fighting was
the only thing I was good at, but... At least I always fought for
what I believed in...
_____

Snake : Raiden, we don't carry guns to take people down. We're not here
to help some politician either.

Raiden : You can say that because you're a legend, a hero. I'm Jack the
Ripper, a dirty reminder -- of a terrible mistake.

Snake : Legends don't mean a whole lot. I was just a name to exploit.
Just like you. People will remember only the good part, the right
part of what you did.

Raiden : There's no right part in murder, not ever.

Snake : And we're not in this to make a name for ourselves.

Raiden : Then what are you and Otacon fighting for?

Snake : A future.

Snake : You can stop being part of a mistake, starting now.

Raiden : What am I -- what am I supposed to do?

Snake : Find something to believe in. And find it for yourself. And when
you do, pass it on to the future.

Raiden : Believe in what?

Snake : That's your problem.
____

Snake : Anyone you know?

Raiden : No, never heard the name before. I'll pick my own name...and my
own life. I'll find something worth passing on.

I swear I attached the image

If you have to explain a joke after you've told it, it's a bad joke.

If you have to explain a story after you've told it, it's a bad story.

This. MGS3 bosses were easy cooler and much more dynamic. Like the fight with Volgin or The Sorrow.

V is better than 2 anyone who disagrees is wright

They call those things "twists", user.

Otacon*

Are you in any position to actually say that? Weren't you the one who asked other people to explain S3 and then berate them anyway? Now that it has been explained, you decide it's bad because it needed to be explained to you? Is that what's going on?

How are the whys and hows convoluted nonsense?

No it's not good. It had all the potential in the world to be good but it was handled poorly. Posting the script is just posting the script and doesn't add to what you're saying.

How is that material not good? Raiden has a more than solid arc, it's good stuff. What are your grievances?

Twist ≠ good story

>Good stories don't have twists in them.
OK.

But why isn't it a good story? You didn't even know what the story was until people explained it to you in this very thread.

The delusional defense force for MGS2 is genuinely baffling to see in action. I've heard stories about it but, wow.

MGS3 started the trend of bosses with bloated health bars. That alone makes it bad. Every latter MGS title will suffer, especially Peace Walker with its helicopters that can eat 20 rockets, and thousands of rounds right at the engine and cockpit.
In V the skulls are amazingly notorious for this. Why is there an LMG class even if it doesn't have enough bullets to put down a skull?

Good stories have good twists.

I agree, the story is a load of Alex Jones-ish bullshit

You don't have to justify it to these feebs who are enamored with Kojima

Nobody has explained anything any further. They just took my shitty shorthand version and stretched it out over several posts and paragraphs without adding anything

And this a good twist (on paper at least, like most things Kojima executes this quite poorly with way too much exposition) because it recontextualises the story until that point in a way that makes more sense.

>If you can understand this game

That right there is the reason tools lionize the MGS2 story - they want to think they get the "deeper meaning" because they were super smart

>Raiden
>wears nice suits or just goes nude

What defense force? The guy asked questions, his questions were answers, and now he's saying it's not good despite all that. Am I dreaming or something? What's going on?

Alex Jones invented the idea of conspiracy theories?

What are you talking about:

What the fuck is going on anymore?

It's a good game and all, but jesus, the story

It's not even deep. It's explained to you directly and overtly. If you don't get it, you're a fucking idiot.

What is happening is the MGS2 and Kojima fanboys' feelings are hurt because their baby got called out and put down.

Questions were answered* fuck me.

Nobody has stated anything concrete about what is wrong with the story. One guy said it was convoluted nonsense but won't say why. One guy says it isn't good but won't say why. Are you going to say why or also not going to do anything?

Hold on a moment. If MGS2's story is Alex Jones level conspiracy then MGS3's is le happy merchant splitting the world in their new order. The fact that you would praise this like a good goy and try to erase the free speech loving freedom loving message of 2 is appalling.

>bomb hunting is boring
>boss fights are shit
>level design in most areas is meh
>underwater escort mission
>poor pacing. Especially the pre-Solidus fight codec.

This is what's really wrong with the game.

>bloated health bars.
What? MGS3 bosses die fast as fuck.
What are you on about?

>Alex Jones invented the idea of conspiracy theories?

No idiot, I'm saying it's the kind of story that Alex Jones fans love

There's nothing to "get". it's just a bunch of stupid bullshit thrown together.

Whose feelings are hurt?

Alex Jones fans like to talk about the notion of passing on one's memes to the next generation? Isn't that something we should all be doing?

I agree there's nothing to "get," because MGS2 is written at the American 10th grade level. I don't know why this game is so polarizing 15 years on.

In summary:

Story is poorly done, meta, 2deep4u shit
Gameplay has plenty of positives and a bunch of negatives.

Not nearly as good or smart as people will try and tell you. Still a nice game.

>One guy said it was convoluted nonsense

I'd agree with that

>the free speech loving freedom loving message of 2

Oh jesus fucking christ

>I'd agree with that

Okay. Now why? Not one person has answered any of my queries.

>Ocelot, seemingly amused by this plan, then revealed to the group that the entire incident had actually been orchestrated by the Patriots all along, and that similarities between the Shadow Moses Incident and the Big Shell crisis were much more than mere coincidence. The renegade special forces unit Dead Cell, Raiden's relationship to the terrorist leader, and a computer virus that mimicked FOXDIE, were all elements scripted to turn Raiden into the perfect soldier. Similar to President Johnson, the Patriots had used Solidus's ambitions for their own ends. However, the one thing that they had not planned on was the appearance of the real Solid Snake, which is why the AI Colonel had repeatedly told Raiden that Snake wasn't part of this simulation, and not to rely on his help.

SUCH A GREAT STORY

This is amazing

Sit here and read this shit start to finish and tell me it's a compelling story:

metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Big_Shell_Incident

You say that, but I am certain you don't understand half of what the story is about

>MGS2 Fanbase: The Post

It feels pretty fantastical I'll tell you that. Could you imagine having a conversation play out like this in real life?

>This thing is X
>Okay, why is this thing X
>It's X.
>Right. Why is it X?
>It's just X
>Alright you said that. Can you tell me why?
>It's X.

I'd think the person suffered from some sort of mental issue.

Not a single one of you can give me a straight answer. You must be terrible conversationalists. Goodnight.

>typical MGS2 hater being jealous of MGS2 fans' higher intelligence

Genuinely, genuinely amazing.

>How the fuck do people not see this as the peak of the series?
They do, most people who shit on 2 or think that V is better than the original trilogy simply never played any of the other games.

/thread

*tips fat guy neck hair meme hat*

Don't lie user, even with the EZ gun bosses take significantly more rounds to beat. Sometimes bosses like the Pain will become invincible in a coat of bees for fucks sake just because.

In MGS2 bosses go down quick. Even the Harrier and Vamp. Kojima's games to that point weren't padded with bullshit that started with 3. ZoE2 and 1, and MGS1 played like games I would like to play over and over.

In other ways MGS3 is a chore because I have to press the skip button for 10 minutes because of childishly written radio chatter.
>Snake that mask! It reminds me of a fly! A fly?
>The virtuous mission. Virtuous mission?
>Like I feel safe. In a box.
>007? James Bond is just fiction compared to "me", but I will watch a film with you after the mission...

In 2 this type of shit has been turned to a dumb meme but 3 fags never admit their game is full of the same writing.
>We've managed to avoid drowning.
This happens once throughout the whole game.

3 is definitely the nu-male audience's MGS. It represents the same flaws they accuse those who have opposing opinions to them while they ignore their own faults.

As someone who played all the games in the series for the first time a year ago, I honestly don't know. Most bosses aren't that interesting at all - Pain and Fear are great examples of undeveloped personalities. The story rapes the lore as much as it can. Optic camo in the 60s! Spacemen dying and becoming a huge fire face! Electric man! What the fuck are those things? Why? Is this fantasy or science fiction? And the gameplay itself is much more boring, crawl everywhere at the speed of a snail! Wow!

On the other hand, MGS2 was fast paced top down stealth-puzzle, all killer no filler.

>Not a single one of you can give me a straight answer.

If I think the story is shit, I'm not going to want to discuss it at length

Arsenal gear is a stupid concept, nuking NY is cliched, Otacon is a freak, the patriots are stupid, the S3 plan is stupid, the sons of liberty are stupid, ocelots arm is stupid

Basically a lot of things are fucking stupid

>optional codec conversations that don't take themselves seriously are bad now
>"nu-male"
I'm 100% sure now that MGS2fags are the worst people in the fandom.

You MGS2 teat suckers must get so overly defensive about it because, deep down, you know it's not that good.

wtf I hate MGS2 now

>>We've managed to avoid drowning.
Main story Codec conversation
>Snake that mask! It reminds me of a fly! A fly?
>Like I feel safe. In a box.
>007? James Bond is just fiction compared to "me", but I will watch a film with you after the mission...
Optional side codec conversation that you can freely listen to.

Except MGS2 bosses are way more tightly designed. You yourself just said MGS3 bosses are just bullet sponges.

Try fucking playing the Olga fight on EE, it's an entirely different bossfight once it forces you to use stealth. MGS2 bosses are all about precision since you can die in one hit, wheras MGS3 bosses on EE are just "use the same exact tactic but with slightly fewer retries." Even the fucking end fight is just running after him once he moves, even without thermal goggles its dead easy.

The Pain is stupid, The Fear is stupid, The Fury is stupid, The Sorrow is stupid, Volgin is stupid, Zero is stupid, most of the codec dialogue is stupid, Ocelot meowing is stupid, Big Boss is stupid, Ocelot's hand motions are stupid, basically a lot of things are fucking stupid. Then the game expects me to to take it seriously and be in tears when we kill The Boss and find out the truth about her.

>peak of the series

yeah this was the best of the MGS movies for sure

Got no objections to that really, I'm not a huge MGS3 fanboy

I'd love to sit on a couch beside a MGS2 fan and watch them play though it and tell me why X part is good while I chuckle from my diaphragm.

youtube.com/watch?v=smF88ZVNCps

so MGS2 is just trying to surpass itself as a sequel by being self-aware?

In the original PS2 version the tanker chapter is skipped if you say you haven't played mgs1.

Thanks for posting this user, it baffles me how some of this shit was laid out bare by Kojima in the Document of MGS2, but people still think Raiden being a huge shit at first wasn't INTENTIONAL.

People will then immediately say "well him being a shit character on purpose doesn't make him a good character", but that's the problem with metafiction, characters and scenarios are crafted to make a point first and act as people second. Not to mention, the entire point of his character arc is throwing of the notion of being a copycat Snake and becoming his own man.

Notice how his backstory isn't revealed until Arsenal Gear, and we learn that his life is just as fucked up if not MORE fucked up than Snake's. It's around that point that we learn he's his own man with his own demons to work out and he becomes independent of the player. It's why they give him the sword at that point, to mark him as different from Snake and drive the point home that Raiden was meant to represent the player wanting to be Snake in the first half of the game.

I mean for fucks sake, if people still don't understand the significance of Raiden discarding the dogtags with the players name on them at the end, or Raiden mention his VR training to Snake and it showing footage of MGS1 as he says this, I don't know what to say.

And you completely missed the entire point of the game. Not just the story, the game.
Omedetou.

You have the option of saying that?

Revisionist history. MGS 2 was the best one. But die hard fans don't like to admit it because MUH SNAKE.

MGS1 had a much simpler plot by comparison.
Your old unit has gone rogue and is threatening to launch a nuke if they don't get the remains of Big Boss.

Very simple and makes you wonder a couple of things: Who is Big Boss? Why are his genetics important?

MGS2 by comparison is a clusterfuck. I never once wondered about any of the bullshit plot points because it just felt like bullshit.

The problem is that it's trying to emulate MGS1 for most of the game, and then it also has to explain why and also what's actually going on in the last hour.

>MGS2 by comparison is a clusterfuck. I never once wondered about any of the bullshit plot points because it just felt like bullshit.
It's because your intelligence is so negligible you cant comprehend it.

>Very simple and makes you wonder a couple of things: Who is Big Boss?
Is this post satire?

They spent too much time and money for the e3 demo (tanker) half the actual game had to be cut out

How many people do you think played MG1 and 2 before MGS back in 98?

MGS2 is going to be divisive no matter what because the founding idea of the game is to deconstruct why people liked MGS1 and Solid Snake and play on that in a cynical way.

No, it's because it tried something different that so many people continue to refuse to acknowledge. MGS2 isn't liked for it's gameplay (although it's fine and is improved over MGS1, even if it doesn't make good on these improvements most of the time because of lame boss fights, etc.), it's liked for being a good example of metafiction and people like to pretend it doesn't have something to say or a point to get across.

this

>metafiction being somehow a good thing

Smoother, tighter gameplay. Fast paced, not slow as a crawl. Alert phases mak much more sense too - fellas need to call in backup, while in 3 everyone instantly knows where you are.

3 fans are the original cawaddooty babbys.

They explain Big Boss's backstory in the debriefing and additionally there's an option on the menu for a recap of MGs1 and 2.

I don't get what you mean. Metafiction is like any other type of fiction: it can be done well or poorly. I happen to think MGS2 does it in an interesting way, so I like to talk about it.

>metafiction

If you have to couch it in such bullshit terms it's probably shit

I hate threads like this. Yes mgs2 is my favorite game but these threads just devolve into shitposters and idiots coming up with reasons to hate specific games in the series. Each mgs game is fantastic in its own way and each has its own flaws. 5 was a dissapointment but had great gameplay. Peace Walker was a bit underwhelming for me but even that has its fans (and I'm sure I'd enjoy it if I could play the multiplayer). 4 kind of messed with a lot of plot elements but still had great gameplay, and certain sections of 4 are extremely satisfying. 1, 2, and 3 are fantastic, and while they all have flaws, none of their flaws make them bad games. 90% of people I have talked to share this general opinion when it comes to mgs, but when you go on Cred Forums it's just threads like this.

I'll never understand how something being self aware gives it a free pass for people when the content is poor.

How is metafiction a bullshit term? How does it intrinsically make MGS2 shit?

Get this 'please stop fighting guys, you're scaring me' shit outta here.

Why do MGS2fags constantly call people "dumb", "casuals", "babbys" etc. for not liking their game as much as they do?
Do they think that they have a higher IQ jst because they like one game more than the others?

Imbecile detected.

Overly pretentious in its story. The bullshit at the end of the game were enemies started to fly and things went "crazy" just made me cringe.

Yes. They think it's deep as fuck but it's shallow, overt and kind of pretentious.

>not having the 275 IQ to enjoy an intellectual masterpiece that really makes you think deeply like MGS2

MGS2 fans will think I'm serious

There isn't really a point in arguing. You've made up your mind already. But I will say for the record that I judge things on a case by case basis. I'm normally a "game-play is everything, story comes second" type of person, but for MGS2 the postmodern angle was so novel and interesting for me, and the convoluted almost fever dream like sequence of events got me wrapped up in the game like nothing else. Yes, the game has flaws, what doesn't?

Just curious, do you consider yourself more a logical type or a creative type?.

Haters are insecure homo fucks who prefer to look at Snake's bum than a dude that at least could pass as a trap.

4 > 3 = 1 > 2

I don't count any other titles in the series because they're all dogshit. Don't bother calling underage because I've been playing this series since its inception on MSX.

>This pretentiousness

See, this type of shit I can get down with even though I love MGS2. If you understand everything the game is trying to get across and you walk away thinking, "wow, this shit is pretentious", I can respect that. It's just the people acting like there isn't any deeper meaning at all and only talking about how lame Raiden is or that the boss fights suck that get my goat.

>Any Metal Gear
>Deep

i haven't played it myself, but it defiantly looks like the best in the series.

MG Survive is the true peak now :^)

Glad I'm not the only one who never used the codec, though I suspect I missed a whole lot of stuff

He called it shallow, user.

Why do fucks like you have to exist who jump on people who try to be honest and discuss things. Contribute something for once in your life instead of making sarcastic comments, faggot.

If you're dumb enough to so passionately defend 2 in an obvious shitpost thread, then you're dumb enough to think 2 is the best in the series.

Like this guy

Talking about Raiden being a pussy is stupid unless you qualify it with something like "...and I don't think the S3 Plan reveal justified it."

It's just showing you missed the point. I don't know how you can miss the point when it's so clearly explained. I get MGS2, I just don't like it.

Sure thing, Homer.

Alright, that's cool. That's what I'm getting at.

But it's so pointless. There's better threads to be had.
>just leave the thread
I am, I just want more people to as well

Wow, aren't you great? The high horse convention is down the road, mister.

Because 3 wasn't shitty.

>People pointing out the boss fights suck get on my goat

>Literally caring more about story > gameplay

Nigga, Metal Gear is only skin deep. The series brings up important topics in every single one of the games that correlate in some way to the time period the physical games released in, but it never delves deeper than that. MGS2 is hardly a masterpiece in story telling, and in fact, suffers almost as bad as MGS4 does with how the story is presented.

Case in point being, if you NEVER played MGS1 before and jumped into the series with 2, still managed to hate the fuck out of Raiden (which most people universally did at the time, and it had nothing to do with not playing as Snake, and everything to do with Raiden being A BAD FUCKING CHARACTER), the entire narrative is thrown in a dumbster fire from the word go.

And the bosses were, in fact, absolute shit tier. MGS4 had more memorable/enjoyable fights.

>MGS2
>peak of the series

>and everything to do with Raiden being A BAD FUCKING CHARACTER

You can't justify Raiden being a bad character, so your claim is wrong.

>And the bosses were, in fact, absolute shit tier.
Fatman, Rays and Solidus were great. Olga was amazing for it's time, but you wouldn't know because you're a MGS3 caw of dooty baby.

Pain, Fear and Shagohod are absolute shit tier. The Shagohod is the worst mech fight in the entire series and what's even worse is that it has two phases. End, Fury and Sorrow are the only good fights in MGS3.

Don't get me wrong, the boss fights are mostly lame. I just get tired of hearing it repeated ad nauseum like some kind conversation ender whenever someone says they like MGS2.

>Raiden being A BAD FUCKING CHARACTER

Again, like even the user that doesn't like MGS2 above pointed out, Raiden is intended to be shitty at first. Whether or not you think the S3 plan and his background reveal on the Arsenal Gear makes up for it is another question entirely. I personally think it does and I like Raiden as a character. I'd even go so far as to say his MGS4 and MGR incarnations are disappointing in comparison. He's a cool character, but I feel like it shot the whole arc he had in MGS2 in the foot.

Fatman was lame to fight and his presence in the story was a completely pointless dead end.

Vamp is pretty metal on the highest difficulties. If you don't glitch your way through you literally can't stop moving and the whole fight really pushes your reflexes.

The guy literally phases in and out on remembering being a child soldier when it's convenient to the plot, which is only one aspect to why his character is flawed on a narrative standpoint.

Literally only Fatman was a good fight, and it happened coming off a long winded bomb hunt fetch quest (which you repeat AGAIN for the fight itself). Rays were Whack-A-Mole tier, Solidus was better in concept than in practice, and Olga was NOT amazing when the game came out. The fact that you need to try and strawman MGS3 fans into the CoD fanbase when pointing out the bosses are shit (or even imply that MGS3 is my favorite in the series to begin with) to try and conjure pre-loaded ammo for your argument only proves how desperate you are to drop the subject.

>Raiden is intended to be shitty at first
Which absolutely fails in a narrative standpoint, because Raiden is more agile, capable, and controls better than Snake ever did in any previous Metal Gear game, so that entire attempt at a plot point (if it even was honestly supposed to be one) was executed in the worst way possible.

I feel like Snake controlled better in the Tanker chapter than Raiden.

>his presence in the story was a completely pointless dead end.

Fatman was the "exam" for the S3 subject. If the whole Big Shell blew up, then welp, our project is a failure, time to improve our program and think of another exercise to test it.

Memory manipulation, by cortical impulses inflicted by nanomachines. Raiden could not remember certain parts of his past when first talking it up with Rose on the Codec before Arsenal Gear, he only remembered how he felt, that's why he couldn't elaborate on it

>The guy literally phases in and out on remembering being a child soldier when it's convenient to the plot, which is only one aspect to why his character is flawed on a narrative standpoint.

That's one of the main problems with a metafictional approach. He comes out of no where with the child soldier shit because it's supposed to mark the point where Raiden stops being the player and starts being his own person. Remember, the S3 plan is to create another Solid Snake, so these memories resurfacing coincide with him getting the sword etc that marks him as different from Snake.

>Which absolutely fails in a narrative standpoint, because Raiden is more agile, capable, and controls better than Snake ever did in any previous Metal Gear game, so that entire attempt at a plot point (if it even was honestly supposed to be one) was executed in the worst way possible.

When people say Raiden is shit, they are mostly talking about him as a person I.E. his appearance, his voice, his personality so forth not being as badass as Snake. They aren't talking about his sneaking skills or combat prowess. And it was very much intentional, that's what I've been saying. Again, multiple anons have said they understood it was intentional but didn't appreciate the concept, that's not what I'm arguing against. I'm arguing against the people who still somehow think the whole dogtag scene and so forth are incidental and don't prove that Raiden becoming his own man independent of the player and Snake was an intentional aspect of the plot. If you get that and still think it's shit, then you're all good.

Well, you'd be wrong, because they control exactly the same, only Raiden is a flipping machine and can do spinning sweep kicks, while Snake can barely perform rolls without tripping on shit.

That still doesn't justify the use of amnesia for the sake of keeping the paper thin plot in tact.

Hell, prior to MGS4 basically needing to flat out explain everything to continue a narrative, could you even tell me if Rose was real? Some may think it's a compelling narrative to make people think. I just see it as the writers writing themselves into a hole they couldn't get out of, and intentionally left it vague so they wouldn't have to explain glaring plot holes. Like how if the Patriots were tracking Solid Snake's location and health status via his nanomachines throughout the course of MGS1, why they couldn't continue to do so in MGS2. It's not like the guy "went off the grid" as far as his nanomachines were concerned.

This is the dumb shit MGS2 never even attempts to explain, yet people lap it up as some sort of amazing piece of video game literature, and this is coming from a rabid Metal Gear fan since MGS1.

DUDE ILLUMANETI LMAO

BEST MGS EVER XD

IF YOU DON'T AGREE YOU ARE A RETARD

>Remember, the S3 plan is to create another Solid Snake,

I like the sword bit but please know what you're talking about. S3 plan is not about recreating Snake, it's about manipulating people believing THEY are worth as much as Snake.

>Hell, prior to MGS4 basically needing to flat out explain everything to continue a narrative
>could you even tell me if Rose was real?

That's the problem, MGS2 was not going to expand on the narrative, we would have had to fill our own gaps. Choose our own interpretation.

>Some may think it's a compelling narrative to make people think.

It's not *some* may think. It's definitely what Kojima wanted, to let players make their own choices and to stop taking anything at face value.

>I just see it as the writers writing themselves into a hole they couldn't get out of

The epilogue about the 12 dead guys was just the nail in the coffin. Otacon and Snake thought they had clues about the Patriots (being AIs), they did not. So there was no cliffhanger, just an open ending.

>Like how if the Patriots were tracking Solid Snake's location and health status via his nanomachines throughout the course of MGS1

Naomi was, and Snake had the previous generation of nanomachines (with a limited 24hour autonomy, as stated by Naomi and the Colonel multiple times, so after Shadow Moses they were basically dead metal inside Snake's bloodstream), without even the brain manipulation bits Raiden had.

I don't understand what you mean by bringing Rose into this? You couldn't tell if Rose was real or not because that was an intentional aspect of the plot. There are multiple scenes where Raiden is questioning Rose about that very thing. As for things being explained in MGS4, that's a consequence of making sequels to games that were never intended to have them. You have to look at MGS2 as standalone. The unanswered questions were meant to stay that way to lend uncertainty and paranoia to the whole affair.

...

MGS2 just have terrible writing

Kojima's writing has always been in need of aggressive editing but MGS2 is just far out there.
So much of the conversations and scenes are completely pointless and goes nowhere

Also, see . The openness of MGS2 was intentional. Don't forget Snake's huge filibuster about not fretting over words and finding your own meaning from all the information.

Yeah, sorry. I forgot that the S3 plan had a double reveal. I was thinking about the first time they "reveal" what it's about.

Is this something from a tumblr post?

What's with all the cliches?

Half the point of a game is being a movie with bad dialogue?

What a great game!

That's what the retards in this thread consider the 2deep4u/best MGS ever made.

Why, what's wrong with the image?

>When fuck all makes sense, it is passed of as nanomachines,

"Nanomachines" meme wasn't done in MGS2, not even in 3. IIRC it's until Revengeance where it's a thing.

Sounds like something an autistic kid from my class writes on his blog and tries to get us all to read

Do you know what a cliche is? Have you ever opened a literature book in your life? MGS2 fags thinks that game is the second coming of christ.

>60% cutscenes
>40% gameplay
>peak of the series

No, it's the second worst entry in the series, right behind MGS4.

Yeah, I know what a cliche is. Can you tell me what you think is cliche there, though? Not being a smartass I just wanna know where you're coming from.

Also >literature book

fucking lol

MGS2 would be the best if Dead Cell wasn't quite possibly the worst written, unlikable, and fucking retarded group of bosses.

Foxhound > Cobras > shit > B&Bs > dried shit >>>>>>>>>> Dead Cell

It's complex but it's layed out directly. It's said to you. I don't have 300 IQ just for understanding MGS2, but if you think that MGS2 doesn't have a deeper meaning then you're an idiot. Go to /9gag/ and gush there about 90s games.

All the writing just feels like common cliches pasted in and results in a long monologue really not saying much at all.

It just leaves you with a feeling of "what was the point of that?"

It just tries to go for complex concepts but just results in being just tiring conversations about nothing and doesn't really lead the story anywhere or build any characters.
And instead of trying to build upon it it just switches concepts constantly.
70% of the dialogue could be cut and it'd be much better off.

It kinda reminds me of how the Star Wars prequels tried to be more complex and deep but just felt hollow as fuck.

Sort of like your sentence.

It pretty clearly states and gives examples to explain the Patriots' motives.

Dude, seriously? You didn't actually tell me what was cliche, just "lol all of it".

The illuminati cliche.

>Also >literature book

English is not my first language, I though you guys had different kind of books too, not just literature.

That's what it is.
>lel u have no freedom
>lel there is no truth
>lel world dies not with a bang but a whimper
>lol this is the world you chose
It's like from some edgy teenagers monologue trying to sound as clever as they can

>could you even tell me if Rose was real?
This niggah.

Oh, it's cool. It's just kind of redundant, not technically wrong I guess if you put it that way. Like trying to keep it separate from "picture book" or something, right? It's just not something a native speaker would say.

dried shit>shit

A bunch of my friends that are fans of the MGS utterly hate 2 and think 3 is the greatest game of all time.3 is good but I feel 2 is heavily underrated.It's a masterpiece imo.No game before or after has actual engrossed me into it's story as much as MGS2 and actually got me to expand my worldview.The gameplay was tight and I loved all of the enemy interaction with getting all of the dog tags.Thanks Kojima-san you crazy bastard.

>he still thinks Solid Snake appears at any point in the shell chapter

>work of fictions
>uses tropes

Color me surprised.

>work of fiction is vaguely like other stuff that has been done therefore it's completely uninspired.

Oh, I see. Well any game dealing with global conspiracy is going to have to touch on those concepts. The "not a bang but a whimper thing" is the only line I think really sucks. That's some dumb trite shit. Do you not like the idea behind the monologue or is it just the way they're saying it?

tropes are fine imo

but that's all it is, tropes wrapped in a conversation trying to sound smart. It doesn't lead anywhere really and just goes on for way too long.

One of the hardest things in writing is to try to keep it simple but Kojima fixes it by trying to add more and make it more complex for no reason

Emma

Red codec calls every 5 minutes

FPS aim kinda sucks

Underwater sections last too long

Emma

Solid had a better story

I dont dislike raiden, i dislike what they did with snake

EMMA

You got finish the 3 times to finaly unlock shit

Its not a big deal because the game is only 2 hours long

EM

DAILY REMINDER
DAILY REMINDER
DAILY REMINDER
DAILY REMINDER

The only bit you like about MGS2 was a hastily rewrtten and shoehorned in at the last minute by Tomokazu Fukushima in the wake of September 11 and everything you think is deep and meaningful was shat out just to meet a deadline. It's only good because YOU write the story in your head and you're so narcissistic that nothing you create can POSSIBLY be trash.

>he didn't masturbate to EE pissing herself

that's more your problem than mine at this point

I legitimately think Survive with friends or competent random online players is going to give me more enjoyment than most of V past the 15 hour mark.

Anyone else? I admit it's because I found V to be dogshit.

It does to me.

I was too busy looking at her red ass

>Underwater sections last too long

5 minutes if you don't take the time to explore and you don't suck.

>EMMA
>I'm so casual I can't even handle a simple stealth escort

>i dislike what they did with snake

Giving his life the purpose he's been looking for since MGS1?

What part is that? I don't remember, desu.

I'm not complaining about MGS2 using tropes, I'm complaing about MGS2 fags that call you a retard if you don't think it's the best game in the series too.

Do you think MGS2 would be nearly as divisive if it weren't an MGS game? I don't think it could even work, so much of the plot hinges on it being a sequel to another game and deconstructing that.

Kojima didn't care to make the game simple and it hows, it's pretty convoluted at some points.

>It doesn't lead anywhere

Except it does?

Look, it's okay if you didn't like MGS2 but if your reasons for doing so are because the Patriots vaguely resemble the Illuminati or because it uses stuff that has been done then I'm gonna call your argument bullshit.

That implies I didn't fight Olga with precision. Maybe 3 fags just need to git gud.

>5 minutes
TOO FUCKING LONG

>>I'm so casual I can't even handle a simple stealth escort
Resident evil 4 is a escort mission
EMMA IS HOLD HAND BABY TIER

>Giving his life the purpose he's been looking for since MGS1?
no, making him a badass lel so random infinity ammo bandana.
The whole purpose of MGS1 was to show that legends dont exit and snake is just a human

Obligatory post

youtube.com/watch?v=eKl6WjfDqYA

The stuff that was written out was actually planned with everything that actually went out, and cutting it just helped MGS2 be more confusing.

>Underwater sections last too long

it's pretty much a straight line, and lasts less than 5 minutes, possibly less than 3 if you take diazepam or whatever the drug's called.

It's also the entire extent of the "escort mission"

there are far more annoying things to complain about but people seem hung up on this really quick scene.

What did the Patriots exposition dump lead to? How was any of that set up before and what is its relevance to Raiden? You could literally remove that exposition dump and it wouldn't change the story one bit. Everything led up to Ocelot's big revelation, which was ultimately a big cocktease as set up for a sequel.

Literally nothing. They just cut out the scene where Arsenal Gear dragged the Statue of Liberty and completely collapsed the WTC. Solidus would have grabbed the American flag from the WTC, and used it for extra symbolism at the end. All the assets were made but because of 9/11 they had to completely trash that part, along with some epilogue commentary from Karen Hojo, the girl from Policenauts, that would've tied in with those scenes.

Nothing was actually rewritten.

>replying to a fukushima memer

They don't control everything, but they showed how their module for control can result in the perfect manipulation of an invidivual even in extreme situations such as a Shadow moses recreation
The patriots tried to explain how their information control aimed at filtering useful informations just like the human genome filters weak genes and selects the memes to pass on
That's more clever than anything in the whole series in my opinion, the fact that sentient AIs have the power to control information and exercise their supremacy also regulating the war economy

People who don't like MGS2 usually cite retarded reasons for not liking it

>not playing as Snake
>Raiden being a whiny bitch
>plot doesn't make any sense
>didn't continue MGS1
>ending didn't explain itself
>you didn't save the day
These are all bullshit complaints because they don't tell you about the quality of the game itself, they only tell you that the autists wanted to be le legendary legend again, and when they didn't get that they bitched and complained about not doing their power fantasy.

I find it dumb why people don't think playing as Raiden was a genius idea because the game literally doesn't make sense if it isn't told from Raiden's perspective.

Hideo you got fired, man. Let it go.

Now you have to write stuff without the actual talent and you're scared.

The absolute madman.

>Everything led up to Ocelot's big revelation, which was ultimately a big cocktease as set up for a sequel.

do people's brains just tend to shut down after they hear "solid snake simulation" or is it selective retardation?

>ending didn't explain itself
>20 minutes of exposition spoonfeeding everything

what?

>which was ultimately a big cocktease as set up for a sequel.

There was no sequel planned. Kojima said so multiple times. He only took direction of MGS3 because his team was fucking up just like they did with MGS Rising.

I find it funny that people hate Emma, and yet everything concerning her is relegated to an hour-long section after which she's dead permanently.

I could get the criticism if you were stuck with her for half of the game, but you literally need to babysit her for like three sections. And by "sections" I mean a couple of screen transitions, not something like the Water Temple from OOT.

She's annoying but her escort is varied enough to the point where you can really fuck around with her, and you get an underwater level -> sneaking level > sniping level, each filled to the brim with easter eggs.

Complaining about her never shutting the fuck up about Otacon I can get, but everything else is just stupid. But then again, you people complain about the shooting controls in 2 and 3, so no wonder.

Seriously, why did the Yakuza kill Fukushima?

They showed you how they make context and what they want to do with their whole plan. This directly relates to Snake's ending monologue.

>implying the series didn't end with 2

Do you guys think it's main theme/story could work had snake been the main character again?

MGS2 is open-ended, and doesn't explain stuff like Rose's existence and doesn't actually reveal if it was all a simulation or not and it doesn't give closure to the Patriot's plans.

MGS2's ending is Raiden putting an end to Solidus's plan, Snake giving a message
and Raiden getting a new purpose in life and that's it. Everything else is left unexplained.

Not to mention it featured one of the best tracks in the series.

youtube.com/watch?v=iroXKdSqSPo

How is information control relevant to a solid snake simulation? I want you to think for yourself for a second instead of accepting everything that is presented in MGS2. Somehow, collecting data on a soldier, who has been trained to be like Solid Snake through VR simulation of Shadow Moses, in a setting that is supposed to simulate the events of Shadow Moses but actually has a lot of differences, is somehow tied to the patriots' test for information control.

People seem to forget the first 3/4 of this game is pretty mediocer. The bomb guy character is pretty boring and has zero relevance to the rest of the series. Vamp is cheesy as all hell. Fortune is melodramatic as all fuck and every scene she's in is pure cringe. Codecs concist of Rose whining at you endlessly. Introduces the concept of Liquid Snake possessing ocelot through his arm. Bosses, especially fatman, are underwhelming. The environments are samey as fuck.

That last 4th is absolute gold, but there's too much bogging it down to be considered the best metal gear solid title, which belongs to 3.

Patriots wanted to test if their plan was going well, so they recreated Shadow Moses for Raiden. If they could manipulate Raiden to succeed then their plan was a success. S3 wasn't actually done to make another Snake.

...

See, I can sympathize with this even though like MGS2 the best. It's all about whether you think that last fourth is mind blowing enough to justify all the dumb shit you had to put up with. For me it was. As this thread proves, for many it wasn't. I love MGS3 to death as well, but it feels so safe compared to the massive gamble that Kojima took with 2. He tried something new, and not everyone took to it. I prefer that to the alternative. Gives everyone something to argue and discuss.

I liked everything that led up to the ending of MGS2. Bosses were over-the-top as shit (dat Harrier fight) and controls were extremely tight, and enemy AI was great. The game pays all its setup off in the last quarter but it was always an engaging experience for me.

how can it be the peak of the series when MGS was better?

it's not a solid snake simulation, first of all, and they're not necessarily collecting data on a soldier, but seeing what context is necessary to manipulate him through his own will.

A series of AIs single handedly created the conditions for a Tanker to sink on Manhattan's bay, so they could get there all the set pieces needed for the recreation of Shadow Moses, which could literally be any power fantasy you could think of. The Plant setting, President Johnson, Ninja Olga, Ames, Ocelot, Emma, Solidus, Dead Cell, Fatman. They were all there playing out their part, either willingly (Fatman, Ocelot, Emma), under blackmail (Olga, Rose), or without even knowing it at all (Johnson, Solidus, Dead Cell, Ames).

If you don't think that's pretty impressive then I don't know what to tell you.

Raiden didn't need to be Solid Snake, his battle experience is on par with that of Snake. Raiden was the primary subject of their exercise for testing out GW's effectiveness in a real life situation.

Hope you are consistend and don't complain about the gamble Kojima took with V then.

MGS2's ost is fucking amazing. I remember most ambient songs on Big Shell really well.

>Patriots wanted to test if their plan was going well, so

STOP

Why did they recreate Shadow Moses for Raiden to test their system for information control? They created a setting where the test subject receives very little information and the information he receives is mostly provided by themselves, while the test subject has no interest in questioning the information he is given, so much so that you have to spoonfeed your test subject at the end that the information he has been provided in the past might not be actually true. Seems like a very flawed plan.

Story
2 > 1 > 3
Gameplay
3 > 2 > 1

I can't remember the game very well, I haven't played it in over 3 ages, so I could be wrong.

Like the AIs explained, manipulating through information is actually a subtle thing. If you control context you control everything that those who are in that context do according to the Patriots.

The end was the Patriots getting hacked by the virus that Ema made or because Raiden was getting his own persona and growing out of that context, or something like that.

they have played mgs3

let me hazard a guess, you're the type of person who says 3 is unplayable without the subsistence camera, right?

Where do you get that? user might just like camo index and open environments etc.

see EVERYONE on the Big Shell was part of S3, not just Raiden. President Johnson becomes overly depressed before dying because he thought he was in control by siding with Solidus, except after meeting Raiden he found out he was bazoopled all along into acting in that specific way he SUPPOSED to have chosen on his own free will. Instead, it was just a role that he could not escape from.

"Pawns can never become players."

Raiden stops being a pawn in the end, flipping the bird to the player by throwing the dog tags. And this is a message that is supposed to touch the player itself, making him think about his role in this game. Is he the player, or has he been played? Did he enjoy the game on the varying levels it was presented, or is he just one of the other "not muh Snake" sheeple? MGS2 explores this territory. It's meant to challenge the player's position.

But what is the message of Phantom Pain? Don't spend all of your budget on Z-list Japanese celebrities and their mo-cap sessions?

I love it but i love 3 more.

>If you control context you control everything that those who are in that context do according to the Patriots.

So the idea would be to manipulate someone into behaving or thinking a certain way by altering the context. Would you choose a test subject that is sent in with a clear objective that is similar to what you are trying to manipulate him to do? Seems kinda redundant. A much better test subject would have been a normal worker of the oil platform, who after the assault, adapts to the new context to behave and think a certain way which would be out of norm for him. If you could alter the context and everyone in such a way to make that oil worker the ultimate winner, you will have much better data to validate your information control system.

Yeah but they didn't just manipulate Raiden, they manipulated a ton of other people.

More importantly, they made Raiden think that he was there on his own accord, when that wasn't the case.

that's certainly a possibility, but I've been noticing that most people who praise 3 blindly don't particularly care for how the game was designed

>Raiden think that he was there on his own accord

Impossible since he was sent in.

>It's meant to challenge the player's position.

You can't challenge the player's position when the player has no say in the matter. When everything is preordained, then player choice and manipulation via context doesn't apply. It's like the white phosphorous scene in Spec Ops. If the player is forced to do something while there are other options, you can't challenge the player's action.

>Impossible since he was sent in.

>choose a job
>boss sends you for a tasks
>mission starts going south and weird but your orders stay the same
>you stay in your mission
>this is somehow not your decision

???

>You can't challenge the player's position when the player has no say in the matter.

This is different, though. You're talking about things that are supposed to question your moral positions by showing the effect of your actions. If a game is talking about how you can be fooled into thinking you're the player when you're the pawn, it makes sense artistically to have there be no player input in the matter.

The gameplay is utter shit

How can anyone be fooled into thinking they are the player when they are playing a game with no say in the story? If your goal is to make the gamer question whether he was the player or the pawn, you give the player choice as a way to empower the player and the idea of control to ultimately deconstruct the player choices. This would make the player actually question whether he was in control or not. Right now, all we can question is whether the game's character are in control, not the player.

>You can't challenge the player's position when the player has no say in the matter.

Reading comprehension. Let me past this from my post:

>Is he the player, or has he been played? Did he enjoy the game on the varying levels it was presented, or is he just one of the other "not muh Snake" sheeple?

It's not challenging how the player would have carried out MGS2 if he had free will, but how much did the experience influence his judgement. You don't even have to LIKE the game, you can hate it for all Kojima cared, but it has to be a thoughtful, educated decision. Not just because it wasn't what you expected.

Kojima also thought of these kinds of objections and reserved Snake a line just for you:

youtube.com/watch?v=BrL7wo5-nJo (4:19)

It's not about what you did in the game, is what you GAINED from it that matters.

Not to mention Raiden seriously thinks he's in FOXHOUND, when it was disbanded just after the MGS1 days.