So Cred Forums, what is the greatest Crazy Action/Technical Beat Em Up/Hack N' Slash/Whatever the fuck you call it game...

Why do I get the impression that ITT everyone is judging these games based on aesthetics and overall likeability? In cuhrayzee technical gameplay is everything. look at dmc4 the game is dogshit in almost every aspect but the gameplay makes it the best cuharyzee game, this is undebatable.

>Overall top 5:
Bayo1/2
godhand
dmc1
dmc3
mgr

>creative-technical gameplay top5: (points are deducted for menu switching and "defensive depth" which is literally just parrying/countering all enemy attacks)
dmc4 / dmc3 style switcher mod
Bayonetta 2
Bayonetta 1
NGS
dmc3

Inb4 Bloodborne fanboys ruining another thread trying to fit in.

Frankly I can't get into DMC4. Nero isn't that versatile and Dante feels so... tankish. With DMC3 I enjoy it enough to put the effort forth to try to learn its finer points but 4 is so... bright, and off, and each character so restrictive that I just can't summon enough attention to try to get better at it.

Really? I mean, I love Bloodborne, one of only 6 games I've Platinumed, along with Gravity Rush, DMC3, and Bayonetta, but they'd be barking up the wrong tree here.

multiplayer messes with the mechanics of games because the playstyle changes when you need to be faster than the other guy to win.

Take ace combat for example. Normally you'd do bombing runs that allow you a clear shot of the target. In ace combat infinity you aim your nose at the target the moment you start the mission and carpet bomb anything in the vicinity while nearly scraping your plane over the ground with every kill, never going back up. That is the only way you get the highest score.

fighting games are fun, but in online multiplayer you have to memorize 150 exploitable shithead strategies before you can have a fair match. "zoning", el fuerte bullshit, weird vega attacks, different type of zoning. It's just everyone exploiting everyone. When you play a friend it's much more fun and is similar to playing a brand new fighting game with your fighting game buddies: no one knows the attacks so no one is exploiting shit.

The same would be true for crazy games multiplayer. If score is based on enemies killed or dps it would eliminate combos having to look good. If it has vs multiplayer then the game would become a turn based zoning simulator.

While I admit that I had the recent realization that crazy is a lot about ego for me, I do find it the most stimulating genre to play. It's challenging mentally and there's always a new thing to learn. fighting games are over-challenging and they always get me pissed because my ego is on the line and losing 70% of the matches weren't my fault. It was me not knowing some kind of elaborate pattern. Literally artificial difficulty and if you're not used to losing like me then the game is unfair.

All of these games are great. I haven't played God Hand though. And I only played Ninja Gaiden 2.

I like God of War.

>haven't played God Hand
Bra, you are missing out. It is one of the hardest games ever but if you stick to it there is some cool shit in that game.

DMC4 gives a shitload of tools for Dante and not very many enemies worth using it on.

DMC3 is a little bit better about this but then there's those angel enemies that are just shit to fight.

MGR doesn't deserve to be in a top 5 list of any sort even though it's still good.

Vanquish. Honorable mentions to God Hand and DMC1.

>Nero isn't that versatile and Dante feels so... tankish
Nero is utter dogshit m8. I don't understand what people see in him. Still better than Ninja Gaiden since that doesn't even have any advanced tech lel.

Dante's tankyness goes away. It is because the enemy response to him is much lighter than compared to nero. Concentrate on learning shit for 1 enemy type and you'll see what I mean.

Also gravity rush is good taste. It's pretty crazy for a platformer.

God Hand

Vanquish is a third person shooter

The more tools in one always accessible moveset the better a game is. dmc4 could use some more enemies. Not all are usable either.

dmc3 loses points for style menu switching only at statues or the start of a level. Literally unacceptable

MGR: you're looking at the general design list. That one is not about gameplay. MGR has great polish, nice music, nice design, nice memes. The gameplay is shallow as fuck. Loses points for menu switching weapons in 2010 jesus christ.

You can do some real crazy and creative shit in Vanquish. Don't underestimate it.

Name the most technical example you've seen someone do. Preferably with inputs.

I've played it to death since it was """""free""""" on PS+ but it's not a hack and slash/whatever the faggot op was talking about

Yes it is, it's a hybrid between cuhrayzee Action and TPS.

By your logic DMC4 should be ranked below DMC3 because it offers less tools.

>Most weapons don't have as large of a movelist as DMC3's(Pandora being the single exception)
>Styles don't offer nearly as many moves/upgrades as DMC3's
>Nero isn't fleshed out even remotely as well as Vergil was so there's even less options when you're playing half the game

DMC3 is just a more complete package than 4 and what 4 offers over 3 is just style switching since it's overshadowed in every other way.
I also think Lucifer is a pretty shit weapon

Dude /cgg/ already agreed on this, it's even on the wikia: cuhrayzee.wikia.com/wiki/Vanquish

Is it just me or does anyone else enjoy MGR but find it annoying to play? Parries don't always work, neither do dodges, I just use ninja run most of the time and slash

Mash rolls to get in, slow time, shoot with the big orb gun, dodgeroll again, shoot a few times with a shotgun, switch to the saw gun and melee(Since you can't melee with anything besides that and the flip kick without losing all your energy), and then fight everything while taking no damage.

git gud

>Preferably with inputs.
How would I do that? People don't put their inputs in their gameplay videos and if they do they're for tutorials.

Best I can show you is an entree from truestyle tournament entrees.
youtube.com/watch?v=_tysaJyJ1hA

It's still the most technical game of it's genre, so that's why it probably belongs in this thread. It needs a home.

What ninja gaiden should I get into the series with? I'll play the others if I like it, I just like easing myself in instead of getting an older game that's jarring

Wonderful 101

It's the game itself though

DMC1, objectively.

>I like God of War.
have fun with dad of war user

Read the fine print: The more tools IN ONE ALWAYS ACCESSIBLE MOVESET the better.
Lucifer is shit because you can't use it. When you can it's good. Similar to how Dante feels shit when you first start out with him.

I'm not even sure why the menu style/weapon switching of dmc3 is still accepted. I found it unacceptable when the game came out, and I still find it unacceptable. It has a mod that overcomes this limitation for that exact reason. Even then it still only has 2 weapon switching, and not 3.

Sure in the grand total dmc3 has more moves, but 1 moveset that is accessible at all times and anything can be used at will and in any order you like? That is pure fucking gold. Even if it removes stuff from dmc3. They can bring that back in dmc5. If they had stayed on the CUSTIMZE YER UWN STYLE !!!11one road dmc4 and dmc in general would not be as popular as it is today.

Bruh

1) /cgg/ is a bunch of cunts and their opinion doesn't mean shit to me
2) I never said the game was or wasn't cuhrayzee. I just wanted to know the most technical example to judge if I am willing to invest time in it.
3) "DUDE" YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS BY NOW IT'S ON THE WIKI HURR DUDE

Are there even cancels in there? What happens to the enemy?

That doesn't look very technical besides the grenade throw and slomo shoot which i'm guessing isn't very hard either. I can't get over the fact that it looks like gow either and I've played it before when it came out.

shut up retard

DMC3 Dante has more tools in his one moveset even if compare 1 style to 4 outside of DMC3 Royal Guard because the weapons/guns/styles are all more fleshed out.

Royal Guard just doesn't add a whole lot of moves, just a very small handful of godlike ones.

Lucifer just doesn't add a whole lot as a weapon and really the attacks are mostly just patterns rather than having multiple different functions.
This is why I say I don't like it.
It's good in the sense that it hits hard but it doesn't actually offer a lot outside of damage.

I think DMC4 just cut too much from each style, and without weapons that are fleshed out nearly as well as Rebellion it makes the movelist suffer.

You can really feel that Dante is incomplete and really it's just style swapping that makes up for it.

k

>You can really feel that Dante is incomplete and really it's just style swapping that makes up for it.
You think they would have been able to fit more moves into it memory wise if they had the time?

You can cancel any gun shots with dodges.
You can cancel melee attacks as well but like I said you can't keep your energy afterwards.
The saw gun's melee is a fixed animation, but you retain all of your energy because you're using the gun.

Enemies don't react too hard unless you're doing the flip kick or using something like the orb gun(I wish I remembered the name right now), the saw gun's melee(Fixed animation) or rocket launcher(Knockback or blows them the fuck up)

It's fun but it's not a very technical game.
It's definitely not like Gears of War unless you play it as such.
The rolls are very very good and lets you fight out in the open along with the slowdown.

Cover is useful but that's mostly just for recharging, cover is also destructible so you can't hide in it forever.

It's like a hybrid of a character action game and a TPS, but the TPS is more of the foundation.
I was genuinely heartbroken when I found out melee sapped your energy the first time I played it.

>I don't understand what people see in him.

youtube.com/watch?v=J_WGfSHKrXM

I think more moves/weapons would have been a thing if they got the chance to complete the game in the first place.

Nero also feels very hollow. I get he's there to introduce new players to this sort of game, but with how shallow he is compared to Dante it makes me imagine they didn't finish Nero either.

Thanks tumblr!

DMC4 has out of the park combat mechanics but its enemy design overall isn't so great.

Nero is perfectly fine when he's not crying for Kyrie.

There's nothing wrong with him wanting to save her, just that once she was taken away all cutscenes involving Nero became KYRIEEEEEEE except for one bit at the very end of the game when he gets Yamato from Dante.

I have a question. Why do you fags act like this "genre" is the absolute best in the entire medium?

The majority of these games are just flat out not difficult and you can break them by abusing dodge rolls or other similar moves.

If we're talking strictly deep mechanics, freedom, and button combinations, then wouldn't a sports sim be the best video game genre? After all, these are actual games with rules, regulations, multiplayer, fully defined goals, etc.

What is a game and what makes it good? Because I keep getting in a recurring argument with Cred Forums shitting on well-renowned popular games such as Final Fantasy VI and Shenmue and then saying other games such as SaGa and Steambot Chronicles are better. I read into these and these both share the same elements, nonlinearity, replayability, and deep mechanics.

So with that being said, why does Dark Souls get so much love on Cred Forums? I've never played Dark Souls and from what i've seen, it just looks like hitting a couple of times and rolling from telegraphed attacks a million times. Well you see, that's my question, why is this considered good when there's no malleability in approach? Is the difference in approach with different weapons? Either way it still appears to be the same rigid patterns of attack, dodge, attack, doge. That's why when it comes down to debating best genre and what a game should be according to Cred Forums, why shouldn't it be a sports sim or a game striving to be a whole new sport in a sim? Because in a sport, it is a true battle as opposed to scripted sequences planned by a.i. That leads me to my next question. Why is combat the only form of gameplay considered such? Why can't a game be more and also be considered substantial and noteworthy? Exploration is always one that props up in my mind, but puzzles are the main alternative because this is a more skillful form of interaction

Here
youtube.com/watch?v=Bi1ssJnUxvo

I meant his gameplay. Not his character. Besides the obvious emo stuff he's a pretty cool dude.

>Because I keep getting in a recurring argument with Cred Forums shitting on well-renowned popular games such as Final Fantasy VI and Shenmue and then saying other games such as SaGa and Steambot Chronicles are better. I read into these and these both share the same elements, nonlinearity, replayability, and deep mechanics.
Different people looking for different things.

SaGa has way more replayability than FF6, but FF6 offers a more structured story until the second half when it basically becomes a SaGa game.

FF6 also isn't very deep while SaGa offers a lot more character customization and restrictions to come up with a type of character that fits your playstyle.
FF6 lets you be everything and all that really matters is character unique abilities like Runic or Trance.

Things like that.

>I think more moves/weapons would have been a thing if they got the chance to complete the game in the first place.
I mean in one moveset. I'm not even sure how much of the available ps3 memory dmc4 uses for it's 71 dante moves.

SaGa combat is one of the few challenging eastern turn-based games while FF is generally one of the most brain-dead. It's mechanically more interesting. SaGa heals your party HP after every battle and this isn't seem as baby mode because even random battles are challenging. It has min-maxing combination attacks, tracking down LP (your characters can only die a certain amount of times), you don't have 99 potions or phoenix downs at your disposal, and so on.
And your "non-linearity" in FFVI is just the last few hours of the game where it's present from the get go in Romancing SaGa 3, SaGa Frontier, etc

Not the guy you were talking to but despite Nero's simplicity he has some pretty satisfying moves due to how he does it and what he cries out

>ONE TWO BLAST
>GO DOWN
>SLAM DUNK
>Throwing those sword angel knights when damaged enough
>Punching Credo in the face repeatedly(Don't care for Devil Trigger version, the punches nonstop are way more satisfying)
>Charge shot has a timed explosion and also it turns the enemy into a projectile
>Fun taunts
>The dropkick
He's really simple and that hurts in the long run.
But he does have a satisfying set of moves at least.

I would like him greatly expanded on but chances are he's never coming back.

The first, idiot

I think they can fit more moves in.
God Hand has a good amount of buttons you could use and swap at pretty much any point and in any order so I don't see why they'd be restricted at this point for moves outside of coming up with inputs for it all.

Black

Thx. That seems decent at least.

all of the Ninja Gaiden games play very differently, one way or the other
no point in "where to start"

Godhand has very little moves. Unless you know something I don't. It is my biggest problem with godhand and why I only play it for fun, and not for technical shenanigans.

I think you get 2 more combo slots and that's it. You have your standard QTE moves and roulette wheel moves and dodging but that's it.

But I'm trying to get to the core issue. What is a video game? What makes it good? Why when dismissing a game, Cred Forums attacks it's mechanics or says it's too linear compared to something of another ilk. Is nonlinearity what makes a game good? Is a game supposed to be a sport? If so, wouldn't a sports sim be the best genre? It features everything your kind likes in these "character action" games and even more with them being actual "games" and focusing on a battle between opposing forces in scoring and both utilizing different tool sets with fouls, goals, and regulations.

Why is Ocarina of Time noteworthy if it is not challenging? Shouldn't challenge be the foremost factor in a game? You have to overcome a challenge in order to score and progress, but then shouldn't a game be a "game" and thusly be a sport focused on scoring and replayability not being an interactive story with "levels" and an ending with a credits sequence like a movie? What is a game? What makes a game good? Why is Final Fantasy VI hailed as a great? Why is Tetris hailed as a great next to it? Why is Uncharted hailed as a great? Why is NBA 2K or PES not liked on Cred Forums if they are actual games with deep mechanics, fouls, multiplayer, goals, multi-layered regulations, and more? Why is Mario hailed in higher regard than Outrun or Afterburner? Why does Cred Forums not like Shenmue but prefer Yakuza? I don't know what a game is. I thought I knew what it was, but ever since I came to Cred Forums I've questioned what I knew when people criticiized things I thought were the greats without question. I just don't know.

Which one is the most like dmc4?

NG3 RE?

You want an unfinished game with poor enemy design and broken mechanics? Because you aren't going to find that in Ninja Gaiden.

Not sure how to answer most of those questions, but if you're wondering why Yakuza gets more praise than Shenmue there's a few things.

Yakuza greatly expanded on what Shenmue offered in the first place.
Yakuza is more recent and as a result has a lot more polish.
The pacing is handled better and there's a lot of really good moments, while Shenmue didn't really pick up storywise and ended on a cliffhanger. Yakuza offers a complete story each entry.

I'm sure when Shenmue 3 comes out people will start talking about Shenmue more positively once again, and if it's handled really well then I'm sure it will get a lot of love.

Right now though Yakuza is basically what Shenmue could have been right now.

none
only cancels in Ninja Gaiden are shuriken cancels, blocking attacks while you are in recovery frames, using weapons specific dodge cancels(Tonfas in 2, Falcon Talons in 3RE) or cicada surge in 3RE which is a cancel that needs a meter to perform (sakura madoi for Kasumi)
none of the Ninja Gaiden games allow freedom regarding air-combos like DMC except for maybe doing air-combo, shuriken before last attack, re juggling shenanigans
seen some people use Ryu's OT start up for some re-juggling combos

tl;dr
no NG game allow freedom to do whatever you want like DMC whether it's due to the enemy aggro or the combat system itself

This should be its own thread not something posted here

>So Cred Forums, what is the greatest Crazy Action/Technical Beat Em Up/Hack N' Slash/Whatever the fuck you call it game?
Wonderful 101.
Easily the best game ever made.

Dark Souls

NG2

That's because the combat isn't fun due to the combos and execution per se.

Yeah but Cred Forums is too retarded to realize action game quality isn't defined by how many moves you have. DMC4 is one of the worst action games despite having high execution due to how poorly designed it is

I'm playing NGB after playing 2 for years
Man, NG without OTs just isn't NG for me. Might as well play DMC instead.

Bruh, if you think 15 ways to shoot a ball is deep shit then I got news for you.
We act like this is the best genre because it is the most complex technical-creative gameplay wise. It is not about games being hard. Flappy bird is also hard but it is the most casual shit ever made because it only has 1 mechanic: tap to not fall. I'm going to try and explain the level of depth in as little text as possible.

I'm going to take dmc4 as an example because that is the ideal. (We need a name for this concept btw someone help)
actions can combine with other actions to form action+
action+ can combine with other action+ to form action++
action++ can combine with other action++ to form action+++
action+++ can combine with other action+++ to form action++++
etc.
Almost all of those require a strict timing that needs to be practiced before you can do them. Which makes it challenging and rewarding when you pull it off.

Most games stop at action+: They have an occasional trick like Dash-jumping in Megaman X
Most AAA games stop at action: nothing combines (Far Cry 3) or everything combines and it's not even a thing that you do. It just happens. (asscreed)

dmc4 is a meme

What you're explaining applies to basketball though with post moves.

TAKE A SUCK

I have no idea what you're talking about. And you probably have no idea about basketball or any sport for that matter

>Yeah but Cred Forums is too retarded to realize action game quality isn't defined by how many moves you have.
I think action game quality often runs paralell to the number of moves in a set. That might make me retarded according to you, but this retard understands why you are opposed to this statement while I am not. There are 2 kinds of people in cuhrayzee:
The creative type (AKA the offensive type, or the free type)
The anticipating type (AKA the defensive type or the effective type)

I am the first, you are the second. I prefer to express myself creatively, you prefer to overcome challenges or something similar.

The moment people start realizing this is the moment we can get some peace around the whole cuhrayzee debacle.

>We act like this is the best genre because it is the most complex technical-creative gameplay wise
How is pressing button combos technically creative? Then what separates these games from tekken or any other fighting game?

It doesn't. It's not about the sequence of moves.

action+ is not a sequence of action and another action. It is AN EFFECT that happens when you sequence them.

Does Vanquish count?

We were talking about games bruh. Basketball games are shallow as fuck.

The effects of these games are much more surprising and free. In fighting games you will not often see a combination of attacks increase your speed above the normal limit, or your altitude, if there are changes like that at all, then they are very very subtle. Of course to maintain a balance.

I would kill to have Ninja Gaiden Black and NG2 on XBox One. They are the best IMO.

Is Cred Forums the only place that uses the word "cuhrayzee" and talks about these games in these ways without "genre"-specific terms? Did Cred Forums invent all this jargon?

Because I frequent a lot of forums and none seem to care about these games like Cred Forums does. Me and everyone else just considered them dumb buttonmashers. Sure you can do interesting combinations that look flashy on youtube videos but at the end of the day they always appeared dumb. I've played them all occasionally (yes on hardest difficulty) and they were all fairly easy.

The reason I'm asking is because I just see your lot parade around Cred Forums in an elitist way as if you're better then everyone else speaking your weird jargon decrying "why oh why do normiez not liek our gaemz" even though racing sims and sports sims sell millions more than your buttonmashers.

> I've played them all occasionally (yes on hardest difficulty)
No you haven't. No need to go on the internet and tell lies.

Final Fight and Streets of Rage will always be better than your shitty "games"

lol

>Conman kills Ninja Gaiden along with one bad game without Oatmeal cookie
Fuck Inafune
He shat on DMC too

I'm not lying. I'm genuinely serious. I never studied the move lists because they're often so big you end up doing combinations regardless by buttonmashing. I got through the games (Ninja Gaiden Black, Devil May Cry 3, and Bayonetta 2) fairly quickly and never return to them. Never found them fun never found them challenging. Just turn your brain off, watch attacks, dodge, and press buttons.

How many stone trophies?

Easy Automatic is not the hardest difficulty user

I get more fun playing Ninja Gaiden on NES

youtube.com/watch?v=5vZCZh5cb6s

The only real consistent answer is that art critique is all subjective. It's very hard to find a definition of objectively good/bad that isn't easily debunked with some examples.
What you're looking for is public consensus, and what kind of enjoyment is appreciated in our popular culture.

Saying things like
>Shouldn't challenge be the foremost factor in a game?
it entirely meaningless, because it already isn't. Unless you want to prescriptively define objectively good as filling certain criteria (which in turn makes it useless in actual speech), you can't define what games should or shouldn't be. If people intuitively call something good you'll have just have to individually ask them why to figure out why they liked it and see if those tastes overlap with yours before you can really figure out if the game is for you.

appreciating cuhrayzee requires a learning process to understand the nuances. racing games do not.

Most people are not interested or ready for this type of learning process. That's why it is less popular.

Oh please, it's not all down to Inafune. Hayashi and Shibusawa were just as complicit to Yaiba being crap

Hell, Inafune didn't even have much to do with the game beyond the initial concept and some of the character designs, whereas Hayashi actually oversaw development of it.

Please. SOR2 and 3 are nice, but they lack depth. Alien vs predator is better than sor, and don't even get me started on final fight, which is dogshit that barely goes above 1 button beat em ups.

Also Shibusawa heavily implied that NG4 will be revealed at PSX in December during TGS this year, so I don't know where this "Ninja Gaiden is dead" thing is coming from.

Hmm, I'd have to say...

DMC1
DMC3
Bayonetta
Godhand
Ninja Gaiden 2
Ninja Gaiden Black
Those would be considered the "best" action games.
But in a strictly technical vote...

DMC3 (with or without style switcher)
DMC4
Bayonetta 1
Bayonetta 2

These offer the highest skill floors in the genre.

As awesome as they are, how is Team Ninja working on both NiOh and NG4 while just having finished DOAX and Dissidia FF?
It's most likely a tease for Dynasty Warrior, not NG4.

Bullshit. Racing sims have far more depth and nuance than these buttonmashers.

You got blistering, graining, lock-up, worrying about CFD, camber, brake balance, telemetry, traction control, understeer, planking, marbles, powertrain, a whole host of shit.

Gang Beasts

Since this is a crazy thread, how the fuck does Nero's Red Rose work? I know you can instantly charge 1 bar by hitting it right as you strike or something but can you get more than one charge? Is it actually possible to implement 3 stage charges into combos?

C H A R A C T E R
A C T I O N

One day you'll be in love.

Yes, it requires perfect timing on the exact frame you hit something with, and gets you 3 charges instantly.
A stupid system if you ask me, it wasn't that fun to pull off and ruin your finger.

Yes normalfags don't care about good videogames, we knew that already.
Go back to your forums.

Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition.

I'd say it does have some weaknesses, like a mostly forgettable OST and an art style that mostly could be better (which I consider to be mostly the environments' fault, which are a little dull-ish in a lot of areas), both of which should be a bigger deal to me than they are since I think music in a game is quite important and I'm an artstyle fag. But on a sheer gameplay level, it's so fucking good. It definitely has the best gameplay in the entire genre. It's so fast, technical, and so much pure fun. Every weapon, style, and both characters are so much fun to use, and it has great enemy and fantastic boss design. It's the game that gave us THE rival boss fight that all others are compared to in Vergil.

It also has one of the best, most well-written, and well-told stories in the genre. Pretty sure it, MGR, and W101 (which should really be in your picture instead of Bayo 2 imo) are pretty much the only games in the genre that have stories or narratives worth a shit. Not even a storyfag but witnessing DMC3's plot unraveling and seeing its characters interact with each other was plenty of fun in its own right, and its conclusion very satisfying.

I think a couple of the other games are possibly more well-rounded, like DMC1, but DMC3:SE stands out above the others as the best.

He even says that the other bosses aren't up to that standard though.

So it is actually possible to get 3 charges if you do it correctly. It's a cool idea but I didn't use it all that well either. At best, I initiated fights with a big hit.

Oh I wasn't implying DMC4 is the best ever. Just wanted to link that to dicksuck Credo.

Yeah but it's easy to just say fuck Inafune without having to explain everything.

I tend to prefer DMC3 original just because you don't have to unlock normal mode.
DMC3SE starts you off in Easy, and you have to fucking unlock Normal.

It's nice because you can play as Vergil, but that's pretty much the only bonus.

I agree with this. I vastly prefer DMC3 Dante to playing DMC4 Dante because frankly, he's much more fun to use even if he can't Style switch, and that's pretty much because weapon design (which for some reason isn't talked about nearly as much as it should be) is so much better. Dante had more Devil Arms and guns to choose from than in 4 and each of those were more fleshed out and interesting to use than the few weapons he has in 4. I never was a fan of Lucifer. It's an interesting concept and if you're good (unlike me), you can pull off some impressive spatial positioning stuff with it, but it's just lacking in the moveset department. I never thought about it as much, but a weapon like Lucifer in 3 would've had more to it than it did in 4.

And that's not even going into Styles, which were objectively nerfed in 4, aside from Trickster, sort of, iirc.

>Basketball games are shallow as fuck
I played 2K17 just for the sake of playing a vidya and i had more trouble playing that than Devil May Cry or even God Hand

...

That's not true, unless you're being intentionally obtuse.

IIRC, American normal mode in the original DMC3 was Japanese hard mode, and so on. in 3:SE, the difficulty modes were changed to what they normally were in the Japanese version, I think.

In addition to Vergil, you also don't have the retarded, actually outdated Gold Orb system, and Turbo mode. And Bloody Palace. Never understood people who preferred the vanilla version.

My nigga

Not my personal favorite or what I believe to be the best, but it's always nice seeing this game get its due. It's definitely up there and underrated imo.

I was just watching this video yesterday, weird.

>highest skill floors
>lists Bayonetta 2 but does not list the Wonderful 101
Explain.

In my imo I think Bayonetta is in every way perfection

>DMC and Sengoku Basara getting hijacked by fujos

>Cuhrayzee games
>buttonmashers

Is this porn? Please tell me it is.

It's not, sorry.

>ywn be this good at Vanquish
I should go back to my God Hard playthrough.

ZoE 2

/thread

You will come to a part with 3 Drill Romanovs and 5 snipers watching from above. Doing anything will get you instakilled. Lure all 3 romanovs to underneath where a guy on a turret and a sniper are sitting on a ledge above. LFE Gun the romanovs into the corner, charge up a shotgun melee, then stun them again with the LFE. Repeat until dead. There is literally no other way to beat them. I tried for hours to dismember them with the disk launcher but htey still crawl around and instakill you. After that a tank shows up and like 4 shotgun booster robot dudes, but oyu get a checkpoint after killing the 3 romanovs.

Believe me on this one user, you need to know this information.

>from the author of Maka-Maka
I knew I recognized that art style.

>not porn
Whelp, that won't stop me anyway. Thanks!

>Because I frequent a lot of forums and none seem to care about these games like Cred Forums does
I frequent Gamefaqs and semi-frequently lurk Neogaf and those places seem to love those games about as much or almost as much as Cred Forums does. Granted, no matter where you go, DMC is going to be the most popular franchise in the genre, with a clear gap ahead of the other franchises, save maybe Ninja Gaiden, MGR, and maybe Bayonetta. Even still, Cred Forums is hardly alone in loving the genre, though most places are even less informed of it than Cred Forums is.

Not that it isn't niche but there's definitely an appeal to the genre.

>Me and everyone else just considered them dumb buttonmashers
You and your friend have shit taste then, along with most people who probably think about as much. These games have better combat and are more rewarding to master than most other video games. That's why we love them.

Dude, I'm still on the first fucking Act.

I was not expecting that massive jump in difficult. Shit was fucking cuhrayzee. I must've spent an hour and more alone on the part before and up to the part in that video.

Also when does that happen?

It's a fun ride~

Act 4 I think, or chapter 4, whichever its' called.

Take Romanovs' heads first thing, if you haven't seen before, you can fire a gun until it hits empty, and as soon as it starts the reolad animation, switch to another gun and continue firing, and when you switch back, it'll be fully reloaded, so you don't have to be limited by reloading anymore.

The only important things you should really know is the enemy AI will 100% focus on you if you go out of cover. If you stay behind a wall, they will ignore you unless it's something like a Romanov that's already really close. Don't be afraid to take it slow, but if you can or know how to skip any fight, do so.

The only fights you should dread are the final boss, the three Drill Romanovs I mentioned, and a part in act/chapter 3 I think, the part where it's a night mission, and you end up in a plaza and 3 of the buzzsaw/drill things pop out of the ground and deposit troops. There is no solid cover in that area and there are some 20 of the yellow gorgies, and they rush you and take over your cover. What I did to beat that area (if you still don't know what I'm talking about you'll know when I get there cus you'll die 40 times to it) was as soon as the level started, go up to the cover on the stairs that's almost right in front of where you spawn at, sorta get halfway up the stairs but not at the top, have the Lock On Lazer, and blind fire it from behind cover. There was no other way to possibly beat it but I'm sure someone on youtube like TheGodFatherDictator has already done it better than I did. In fact, go find his Vanquish videos and try to emulate how he plays, cus he's done God Hard with no deaths before in a single run.

There was no way to prepare you going from Hard to God Hard, there's simply no preparing for it.

>There was no way to prepare you going from Hard to God Hard, there's simply no preparing for it.
Seriously. Hard could be pretty challenging sometimes but it wasn't that bad either. God Hard though is just fucking unreal.

Anyway thanks for all the advice., user. I'll try to remember it!

I came in this thread expecting the usual DMC4 cocksuckers praising it for Dante's mechanics despite the fact that the game was an unfinished mess. But it's a pleasant surprise to see people giving proper analysis instead of screaming "muh style switching" and throwing same 5 tired old webm's around.

In terms of sheer enjoyment for me it wold be
1. Bayo 1
2. Bayo2
3. Rising
4. God hand

Bayo 1 is not perfect but it's combination of gameplay, crazy, humor, fanservice and the way it treated it's ending made me fucking euphoric. Probably quite literally the most fun I've ever had playing video game. Easily the best game of it's gen for me.

In terms of overall polish and quality Bayo 2 is so much better than everything in OP's list it's not even funny. You may subjectively dislike it's difficulty or weapons or characters, the ending wasn't nearly as epic as it was in 1 too. But it's still probably the best sequel the world has ever seen. The game just took every single negative aspect of 1 and fixed the fuck out of it. No QTEs, better minigames, better visuals, not a single fucking bug, more weapons, more diversity, better Bayo design, /ss/ potential. Shit is fucking perfect.

In terms of pure fighting mechanics Uncle Dante is the winner though.

And NG black and European DMC3 are the hardest ones.

...

wew lad

You can't really declare an objective best brawler game. There are hipsters who think God Hand is better than Bayonetta. There are psychopaths who think Devil May Cry 4 is better than DMC: Devil May Cry. There are skullfucked retards who seriously believe Ninja Gaiden has greater depth than God of War.

And those chucklefucka will always keep arguing with you. Concenus is impossible.

Take it all you whore

Still no 2 player mod, even though it's already possible besides the movement stick.

>i had more trouble playing that
That is an entry barrier, something completely different from skill ceiling.

>In terms of pure fighting mechanics Uncle Dante is the winner though
As long as people understand this, that is the most important part. It would be lovely if we'd get games with design like godhand and bayo with the technical depth of uncle.

>why oh why do normiez not liek our gaemz
Normies disliking cuhrayzee is a side effect of them being normies. Cuhrayzee games are all about perfecting the combat systems in as stylish a way as possible and this takes a lot of time to achieve, time which normies would rather spend watching buff sweaty men touching balls or looking at their ex-gf's facebook page. We know why normies don't like it, and we're absolutely fine with that, different people like different things.

But what we do wish is that you normalfag fucking pleb scumbags fucked off back to your social network circlejerks instead of shitting up every god damn thread with your worthless bullshit opinions everyone's heard ten times before.

>We know why normies don't like it, and we're absolutely fine with that, different people like different things.
I'm interested in thinking up a way that these games could get lots of attention from normies while still maintaining the best combat.

What if we take uncle combat and plop it into a free roam rpg, add a waifu/husbando simulator creator. It worked for Dragon's D. That just didn't have deep enough combat and some dumb design choices.

I really want to hear more. Cus, with Uncle Dante, you get your Jump Cancelling, Distorted Real Impacts, and style switching. With just Trickster and Enemy Step you can stay in the air for 100% of an encounter of bossfight. Then Royal Guard with frame perfect blocks and then Royal Releases and stuff, but what is SO deep about Uncle Dante? Going Devil Trigger so you can Trickster around in circles with no cooldown in the air? Juggling enemies? What is so unfathomably deep about Dante that somehow disallows any other game from competing? Is it using Pandora like a boss? Is it RG cancelling out of different animations? each weapon he has doesn't even have that many moves, using him I just never feel like I have enough to play with. I mean you can go swordmaster with rebellion and do the sort of mash O to win and get lots of style points that way.

Forgive my ignorance, but from where I stand, Dante is severely overrated.

Basically this.

>I'm interested in thinking up a way that these games could get lots of attention from normies while still maintaining the best combat.
It's never going to happen.

>It worked for Dragon's D. That just didn't have deep enough combat and some dumb design choices.
DD:DA is the shit but it's not exactly cuhrayzee either.

There are more normies who like DMC for epic crazy cowboy uncle man than there are who are even aware of DD's existence.

The cool thing about these games is that the controlled environments allow the developers to design interesting enemy encounters. I liked DD for its sense of adventure, but the fights were pretty shit despite satisfying combat mechanics.
Pause-menu healing also didn't help.

>cuharyzee
Can we stop using that term? It's cringe-worthy

You can only really understand after you put years of practice into it.
You can have a gander at this, and imagine how each of these techniques take days of practice to do perfectly on one enemy depending on how skilled you are with the genre.
sites.google.com/site/darkwavestyle/games-research/devil-may-cry-4/dmc4---dante

You can also watch these if you want to put in a little bit more time in understanding:
youtube.com/watch?v=YALYaSVjyBU
youtube.com/watch?v=XOIc5m6PwNY
Also lately i've been describing it like this:

actions can combine with other actions to form action+
action+ can combine with other action+ to form action++
action++ can combine with other action++ to form action+++
action+++ can combine with other action+++ to form action++++
etc.
Almost all of those require a strict timing that needs to be practiced before you can do them. Which makes it challenging and rewarding when you pull it off.

Most games stop at action+: They have an occasional trick like Dash-jumping in Megaman X
Most AAA games stop at action: nothing combines (Far Cry 3) or everything combines and it's not even a thing that you do. It just happens. (asscreed)

DMC4 has the best gameplay, bayonetta 1&2 are the best designed games in the series overall. DmCspecial edition is a little behind bayo 1&2 in terms of quality but is a great game. No other hack n slash comes close to these games imo.

>DD:DA is the shit but it's not exactly cuhrayzee either.
Funny thing is that the mechanics for a typical cuhrayzee are still in place. Many skills have nuances and various ways of applying them. You can just only carry 6 at a time.

The stun mechanics are just not suited for them because they prevent juggling because stun HP starts regenerating as soon as you launch an enemy.

Well yeah, I appreciate DMC's style of being able to just show off. In fact I'm pretty sure Kamiya's original statement about the philosophy of DMC was that it was meant for you to be able to show off your skills. I feel like it's just wasted because you don't really need those skills to beat the game and get good scores, but I do have fun going through the game and legitimately trying to get better.

It's really true about being able to combine thing to thing to be able to come up with some really crazy combos and stuff. Feels lost on me since if you're going through, say, DMC4 on DMD and you need to do big damage and kill something, you just switch to Gilgamesh and do a Distorted Real Impact. Otherwise if you don't you're dealing with 3 Frosts and a Faust all getting up in your shit and I don't feel like I can style on them with all of them breathing down my neck at once.

I still appreciate DMC exists as it does. I guess it's just not my thing.

>The cool thing about these games is that the controlled environments allow the developers to design interesting enemy encounters
I see this mentioned a lot, in /cgg/ and Cred Forums in general. Personally I don't weigh this too heavy, because the creative options make it interesting for me. Not some pattern that I have to learn to beat a boss. Of course some bosses work better than others. Sanctus feels really nice as uncle if you apply guardflying and teleports, but I think he's a chore as nero. It's more about stuns and hit reactions that it's related about level design.

Also even open worlds could have confined spaces more suited for classic encounter design. The bridge of a castle is narrow. A broken down arena building could serve as a small area. etc.
The problem is that when people stick A and B and C together they seem to imagine the most basic ways of applying them, and copy paste it's done. While one doesn't exclude the other. If you need something to get a certain result, put it in.

You can argue that linear level designs are lazy as well. It's just rooms one after the other.

Hey I didn't invent it. I like spectacle brawler better and cuhrayzee comes with certain design requirements that I don't always agree with.

If it's technical it's okay in my book, no matter what it is.

>I feel like it's just wasted because you don't really need those skills to beat the game and get good scores

Well I think technical play has eolved beyond a point the devs at capcom could have foreseen so the style meter isn't that effective up until that point. But making these things a requirement in a game creates a massive entry barrier. The good thing about not needing these things is that you can decide for yourself when you feel like picking up a challenging trick to practice. The game just needs to support this type of practicing a bit better than a practice mode hack.

It's not just level design though, it's the entire scope of the game that is affected by open world design. Most open world games do have more linear dungeons and caves, and in a perfect world those would be as interesting as a series of encounters in a linear game, but they never are.

But yeah, if you're fine with enemies more or less being ragdolls for you to make creative combos against that's fine, I just tend to get bored of it more quickly. A game needs a combination of interesting moves and interesting scenarios to use them in for me, at least to qualify as a fun action game. It could still be fun for other reasons like DD.

The only practicing I've done is just dropping myself into the Bloody Palace and seeing how things go. I thought Trish was complete shit before, but after a few runs through the Palace she's pretty solid, but I think she's way better balanced than Lady or Vergil, who are outright broken strong.

Nobody wants to put in raw hours in how to get better. A practice mode like in a Fighter where enemies don't attack would be great though.

Getting gud isn't even the hardest thing in the world like a lot of people think, but it's the biggest barrier to getting into these games, which makes them intimidating. I bet tons of more people would like games like DMC or Bayonetta if they just tried them a couple times. Just putting hours in a game will get you better.

I think it's a damn shame personally cus they're all some of my favorites.

I agree that it has potential to be cuhrayzee. But it's not the full appeal of the game for most players and it's not even as popular as DMC, so.

Not that I wouldn't mind if there were some added depth to it.

Well don't get me wrong. dmc4 is hardly what I would call a good game. I fucking hate most of it actually. Enemies die too quickly, stupid cutscenes, bad music, nero gameplay, walking around and doing some arbitrary shit just so you can fight the next enemy. There needs to be something interesting in between, and I think an open world rpg thing, or perhaps a metroidvania type level design would work wonders for making the game interesting besides the combat. The problem is that those are only interesting if you have loot. And loot is boring if it doesn't change your moveset. But that is stupid because you want all moves on you at all times for creative purposes.

FFXV is an example of this, which is why it will suck because they don't have their priorities in the right place.

Bayo 2 and DMC 3

I was hoping FFXV would be the game to have such a normie-impact while also luring some of the normies over to the darkside when they see people pulling of crazy shit in their favorite game. That's the only way I could see this happening. Sadly the game is going to be shit so it won't serve that purpose.

They need to change it from the demo, because in the demo I played of XV if you tried to do any crazy shit it would last for about 5 seconds then you'd go into a 30 second cooldown in stasis or whatever it was called. Some of the short videos I saw before looked cool though.

youtu.be/2RCizK5Btsc?t=40s

You just need to git gud. I was able to do some crazy stuff for the entire fight in the platinum demo- PROTIP- greatsword replenishes your MP every hit, so you have to switch to and use that whenever you start running low to avoid stasis, or otherwise toss in a greatsword strike somewhat often or between weapon switches to mitigate MP loss.

It actually adds some depth to the combat because you cannot simply switch and do whatever, you have to think about MP management and work that into you combos and crazy attempts as well.

Yeah that's one thing. If you imagine the same gameplay as the demo at level 99 you'd probably get way more air time. Also there are ways to replenish mp while in the air as in webm related.

Still most problems are related to the targetting system and the range of attacks automatically scaling according to enemy distance. You cannot attack in between 2 enemies to hit them both, you cannot use the range of an attack to predict where an enemy is going to be, almost nothing cancels while dissidia had some cool cancels. the dodge is literally programmed as: button held? y/n
y: receieve no damage
n: receieve damage

Depending on what they added to the combat this could change but the depth stops there.
Also made a page about it:

This was the most depth I could get out of it. It seems substantial but it doesn't look like it's going anywhere.

Forgot link

sites.google.com/site/darkwavestyle/games-research/final-fantasy-xv-platinum-demo

I know. check the page. I just still am not happy with the level of depth it provides.

That is pretty entry level shit desu.

hey, fair enough. I am pretty happy with the level of depth in the platinum demo, especially since it represents a somewhat low level (~20) level character, with several gameplay elements (the party, summons, most weapon types) completely absent.

And also because its an RPG first and foremost. If you know an RPG, especially of the open world variety with better, more crazy combat, please let me know. Its already leagues above non-crazy action games like God of War.

I would say that it might be a good gateway drug for casuals, while also being a great experience for someone like me, who appreciates a wide variety of action combat systems- not just "crazy" ones.

Well I figured that as wel. There might be more. But summons don't really combo well with the other stuff. They're just alone standing nuke attacks most likely. To access the weapon types you have to menu switch, which I am not a fan of. I wanted it all in one moveset, or at least 8 weapon slots.

The fact that it is different doesn't really bother me, but I am pretty stubborn about splitting movesets between weapons, classes or such.
Worst offenders being dmc3, dragon's dogma, and in this case FFXV. I care because I like them a lot otherwise.

>but I am pretty stubborn about splitting movesets between weapons, classes or such.

Well, that has to do with the fact that there are limited buttons on a controller. And before you say "Keyboard!" remember that those are ill suited for melee action games.

Also, the human brain can only keep so much information in short term memory at a time. When you have too many options available at once, players are relying more on muscle memory and research than they are on reactions and in the moment action.

Which is fine for games where you want to create a narrative that it is "pro" and requires "hundreds of hours of practice to be competitive" - for example, 2D fighting games. But that doesn't make it ideal for most action games.

>Well, that has to do with the fact that there are limited buttons on a controller. And before you say "Keyboard!" remember that those are ill suited for melee action games.

Uh I meant splitting them between anything that has to be accessed via a menu.

Like I don't mind styles, weapon switching, those are perfect solutions for the limited buttons on a controller as long as I can use them during gameplay.

Also there are very good high level dmc players who play on keyboard. Apparently it comes with it's own set of tricks that are easier and harder to perform than on a controller.

>When you have too many options available at once, players are relying more on muscle memory and research than they are on reactions and in the moment action.
That's why I think the style weapon switching thing is so good. It doesn't really require you to memorize complex inputs. Not that I mind complex inputs, but it's casual friendly while still maintaining the skill ceiling.

Rising is easily the best of the genre

Why? And in what aspect?

It's the funnest and has the best soundtrack

Hmmm. You don't find godhand more fun? Like I think that is the pinnacle of "fun" to me, and I don't even like the gameplay that much.

I hate that you have to switch it through the menu if you want to use a secondary weapon. Main reason I only used swords.

>I meant his gameplay. Not his character.
He's alright. He's like a less refined, and more brute strike grappling Dante, which is an interesting concept.

His back-fw motion moves are also super sick

Overall Ninja Gaiden Black followed by DMC3

If you only care about comboes then its DMC4SE followed by maybe Bayo2

yeah horrible. There's a weapon switch hack for cheatengine, but if you switch too fast your character starts getting fatter or taller, and eventually crashes the game.

Also it only allows preset weapons from each type and they have to be set through cheatengine, so it's not exactly user friendly.

But you can enable skill mixing between classes, which is nice if you've tried everything else.

>Like I don't mind styles, weapon switching, those are perfect solutions for the limited buttons on a controller as long as I can use them during gameplay.

Yes, and the amount of those available to you is limited based on the number of buttons on the controller. Unless you want to hit L2 20 times to cycle through that many weapon types to reach the one you want, then what you propose is impractical for games with larger weapon selections such as this one (or any RPG really. It is gonna be fun seeing how Scalebound deals with this issue.)

Hold L2 + direction to select weapon from menu. If you don't press direction within 300ms it slows down the game for you, if you're faster you can switch in real time.

HoldR2 + direction for more weapons.

There are always solutions.

DMC

>Nero is perfectly fine when he's not crying for Kyrie.
but i love the into cinematic and think its cute when he screams after her

DMC3:SE is best
NGB is hardest and my personal favorite

Anyone have a meele combat video of vanquish?

yes, but those are shitty ones. All you are doing is switching out a pause screen menu for a semi real time menu- a menu that slows down the game if you are still too slow anyway. Your solution gives no real difference or advantage over the pause menu solution, other than further limiting buttons and inputs that could be used for actual moves and gameplay mechanics!

But its ok, I will let you in on something. You have no reason to believe me, but I am proud of it. I work at a big Japanese company that has been mentioned in this thread. We are working on an action game right now that is designed around solving those limitations by turning weapon switching into something that uses no menus at all and makes it into a gameplay mechanic. Weapon Switching in this is also very, very quick- its a very genius solution to the problem. The game is still in preproduction however, and chances are that the game itself may be scrapped and the mechanic instead reworked into the gameplay of one of the companies bigger franchises.

still, if the game ever does make the light of day, here is an easy way to identify it: It will have eurobeat music as the primary soundtrack. In fact, the director of the project is very very adamant about licensing this particular song for a very specific scene in the game. youtube.com/watch?v=IMNRoApV5T0

He is very enthusiastic about this project, it is his first time directing. The game will probably be cancelled before it leaves pre-production though.

Devil May Cry 4 Special Edition is objectively the pinnacle of /cuhrazy/. Though it has its issues in terms of the campaign, the sheer excellence of combat and overall gameplay manages to compensate for these flaws. 5 playable characters makes it stand head and shoulders above the other hack & slash games.

Other than Action RPGs this is the most rewarding, challenging and patrician genre in vidya. Presenting a high skill ceiling based on reflexes and muscle memory that truly makes you feel respected as a player. Quite unfortunate that this genre hasn't received a worthwhile game this generation other than Bayonetta 2 which is locked behind Wii U exclusivity. The future looks pretty bleak as well since there haven't been any announcements for upcoming games to look forward to either.

Honorable mentions that can vary according to personal preferences:

Devil May Cry 3 Special Edition
Metal Gear Rising
Vanquish
Ninja Gaiden Black/2
Bayonetta 1/2
Killer Is Dead

Wait, now that style switcher is a thing wouldn't that put DMC3SE on top? Not to mention, the 3 new characters in SE aren't anything special, they're pretty stale actually. DMC3 Vergil is more technical, miles ahead of those three.

Vergil and Lady are broken in 4SE, but Trish is pretty fairly balanced and a lot better

>the most deaths I had playing NGB were from the platforming stuff
Thanks Itagaki

Vergil in DMC4 SE is fucking intensely fast and dense. Love playing him.

Bayonetta 2, objectively.

Bayonetta 1 is infested with shit level design, shit gameplay and brown shit graphics, awful segments.

DMC3 comes close at times but that's it.

>The more tools in one always accessible moveset the better a game is.
I vehemently disagree with this sentiment. Moveset flexibility is worth far less if there's low enemy quality and variety. This is why NG>DMC.

Killer is Dead?

why the fuck do people post gifs with shit fps and ass sub styles
is this a new meme

oh
i needed to have stopped coming here years ago

>i needed to have stopped coming here years ago
>thinking you can leave
you can never leave
you are stuck in here forever

My order would be Wonderful101
DMC3
God Hand

For the top 3.
Big fan of the genre, and it's a shame that 2 of these games were 1 and dones and weren't explored more.

DMC4SE is novel but far too easy for any sort of relative depth.

Also I'd definitely disagree with Killer is Dead. I tried to have fun with that but I just couldn't do it.

I prefer 2 to 1, but it has faults, particularly with its changes to how humanoid bosses work and removal of certain mechanics like launching mid-wight enemies outside of witch time and god damn taunt offset.

Hey Capcom shill, DMC4SE sucks and this is coming from a massive DMC fan

First from technical standpoint. The addition of motion blur absolutely kill the gameplay especially Vergil. If you're PS4 Xbone user you're screwed. Thankfully there's day 1 patch for PC user.

Second, how broken and unplaytested the 3 new characters are. "It's Vergil lol, he's supposed to be broken" is not a good enough excuse. The amount of movesets copy pasted and hidden behind "dial a combo" set up is staggering. DMC is not Bayonetta, why is Trish's Beast Uppercut, Trish's Drive, Vergil's Rising Sun, Vergil's version of Agni Rudra Firestorm, all locked behind string of combos as finisher? The point of DMC is that you pull quick input command moves like Stinger, Launcher, Calibur, Shuffle, Real Impact, etc on a whim based on directional input. Long preset strings doesn't fit DMC at all.

Third, in term of game set up. DMC4SE is a chore. DMC4 is already half a game with backtracking. With addition of Vergil and Lady/Trish mode, now it's 6 times the amount of backtracking! Vergil is broken lol so you play one campaign with absolutely boring broken character for just sheer power trip. Try to play Vergil on anything below DMD and see whether you can reach S rank (enemies die way too fucking fast)

Finally, building up on the 2nd point what concerns me the most is that it seems like Itsuno's team lost sight on how to make good action game. Take the press statement for example, "Trish don't have weapon cycling so it's welcoming to newbies." First of all, Trish is locked behind half of Lady's campaign. What the purpose of making noob friendly character locked behind 1st half of campaign?? Secondly, Trish is not at all noob friendly character. This means that once you're in the air you're a sitting duck. She also has a lot of complex directional input to pull off her best moves (like aerial Pandora laser) and intricate setup to pull basic moves like ground pounce and beast uppercutt

>The point of DMC is that you pull quick input command moves like Stinger, Launcher, Calibur, Shuffle, Real Impact, etc on a whim based on directional input. Long preset strings doesn't fit DMC at all.
This.

Also didn't Itsuno not actually work on the SE?

Ugh I accidentally deleted a sentence. What I meant is

>Secondly, Trish is not at all noob friendly character.

She completely lacks air defensive maneuvers unlike Dante, Nero or Vergil. This means that once you're in the air you're a sitting duck. In game as fast as DMC, that's like borderline Dark Souls commitment everytime Trish is airborne.
>She also has a lot of complex directional input to pull off her best moves (like aerial Pandora laser) and intricate setup to pull basic moves like ground pounce and beast uppercutt

Just to add, Trish is also completely reliant on her DT to 1. Decloak Mephistos/Fausts 2. Punish Blitz