Their entire gimmick is that they make character action games

thats a tps

Hack and slash is an established name for the genre, that's been around for decades. Character action game is a pretentious title that doesn't even do a better job at describing the set of games it encapsulates than the term hack and slash does. Even "stylish action game" is a better descriptor.

Diablo is an ARPG dungeon crawler. Wikipedia might list it as a hack and slash but Wikipedia isn't an authoritative source.

so something that doesn't exists and only retarded challenged brain damaged people would use then

Yes.

tru

>Why do we worship them again?
OP is the biggest fucking tool I've ever seen

I enjoyed Bayo more than DMC3.

>it's a "dumb cocksucker who thinks Bayonetta isn't better than DMC in every conceivable way" thread

>Why do we worship them again?
because them and Itsuno from Capcom are the only ones making decent action games AT ALL

DMC3, and DMC in general, is extremely overrated

>Why do we worship them again?

no one worship them, they just make decent games, which is rare nowadays, also:

-no paid DLC
-full games
-long enough games
-Lot of replayability
-games made for fun, and not pseudo 2deep4u characters

>"But they made a few shit games too!"
yes, they did, they don't make perfect games, no one said so

>Bayonetta 1+2
>Vanquish
>Wonderful 101
>Metal Gear Rising

Thats why.

i found wonderful not my thing , only played a little of the demo and wasn't fun

>only played a little of the demo
Your mistake.

Same here. I didn't like Viewtiful Joe either.

Nah, it's fine not to prefer it.

I was in the same boat.
I bought it at release, played the first level and never touched it again.
A few months ago I tried it again and after getting used to the controls I fell in love with it and completed it in a few days.

Can anyone tell me why God of War isn't a character action game?

I always thought this genre is called "slasher".

>It's another Hack and slash vs Character action episode

Pass.

And we like them because PG is basically the only developer out there that consistently churns out good action games, even if they're not as good as DMC 3, which is a faulty comparison since games like Vanquish, Anarchy Reigns, Transformers or even Bayonetta are different beasts from Devil May Cry.

>company literally makes one kind of game
>gets snatched by Nintendo
>everyone immediately goes PLATINUM MAKING STAR FOX! PLATINUM MAKING F-ZERO! PLATINUM MAKING METROID ###HBABENNIG

Just...Why do you think they know how to make a racing game, or a furry X-Wing game, or a game that is all about subltety in allowing the game world to guide the player to their goals in an isolated maze-like environment? All they know is games where you fight mooks with stylish combat systems and massive spectacle in linear environments that do their best to scream FUCK YEAH at all times.

Hack n Slash is a Dungeons and Dragons term you retard, Capcom calls them Stylish Action games and every other term was invented by a faggot Youtuber. Diablo and Diablo clones are hack n slashes

Like Battleborn?

how would you make a dmc/bayonetta non-inear?
dont say open world please

isn't that a fps?

>Hack n Slash is a Dungeons and Dragons term
Yeah, I can read Wikipedia too you faggot.
>Distinct from hack and slash role-playing video games, the term "hack and slash" began being used to refer to early weapon-based beat 'em up action games, such as Golden Axe.[6][7] Journalists covering the video game industry often use the term "hack and slash" to refer to a distinct genre of 3D third-person, weapon-based, including titles such as Devil May Cry, God of War, Darksiders and Bayonetta.[8][9]

The idea of context must be lost on you, huh?

I don't see why you would. It doesn't seem like something that would improve the experience at all for that particular style of game.

The best I can think of is doing something like Dark Souls, where the areas are confined and designed with a specialist hand, but your choice of where to go first is almost entirely open.

Yeah dude "journalists" are the ultimate authorityb and the best justification to being an obtuse faggot

Who else regularly makes games in this genre these days?

Bayonetta, is an babby's DMC, with babby combat. babby visuals. babby narrative. babby characters. babby everything.

This is a babby post made by a babby poster with babby communication skills. babby everything.

My biggest issue with it is the babby framerate. Game is nigh unplayable on the PS3 at least. That's a game that would benefit from a current HD remaster.

havent made a good game since viewtiful joe in my opinion

Yes, they never topped a masterpiece like DMC3, but they came really close with Bayonetta and Wonderful 101

>character action
>hack n slash
>stylish action
Don't you mean spectacle fighter?

Fun things are fun

*stylish beat 'em up

Games like DMC are clearly just 3D beat em ups how the fuck is this a discussion you faggots are unbelievable

>spectacle fighter
>term coined by Yahtzee
>a fedora wearing, hillary supporting, brexit hating cuckold who doesn't even know how to play these games

>a fedora wearing, hillary supporting, brexit hating cuckold who doesn't even know how to play these games
Whoa now user, calm down with the projection

But he actually wears fedoras.

I'm right though. He jumped on a bandwagon before brexit won and he supported Bernie before he shat the bed. He also moved in America so good luck with that.

Apparently they make ARPGs now too.

It's a trilby

>>They've never made a game in the genre that's better than Devil May Cry 3
but Bayonetta 1&2 are better than DMC3...

Turn your monitor on

So is every other hat people have been calling fedoras since 2009.

that will be a huge flop.so hard. and for some reason I have the feeling the gameplay will be shit. To tell the truth MGR was the last platinum game that I liked the gameplay. even Bayo 2 was meh

This game looks really uninteresting, I probably would have forgotten all about it if I didn't know Kamiya was the director.

MGR was already a step down from Bayo. No matter how good it is to have a company that just makes Kamiya games, without Kamiya there isn't the same flair.

Just because a bunch of numale faggot journalists call red blue doesn't mean it's actually blue, fuck off.

I have never heard the term "hack and slash" applied to anything but ARPGs.

>literally makes one kind of game
>gets snatched by Nintendo

Literally neither of these things are true, plus the guy who literally made the literally best Zelda game literally is their main guy literally.

Lmao character action games? They are hack n slashes, always have been, always will be. They are mindless shlock along the lines of CoD

yeah i bet these faggots don't even play real games like Witcher and Pillars of Eternity

because they make fun games and kamiya seems like a bro

They actually make games, not interactive movies.

Yeah God Hand is my favourite hack n slash :D only mindless shlock here is your post u queer

God Hand was made by Clover Studio you stupid dingo

Don't call him a stupid dingo you smelly diphthong

>an babby

Anarchy Reigns, Mad World or Korra then I guess even though I can't say that with a straight face

What the fuck did you just say about me you ugly sack of shit?

If you say something like that again gosh will darn you to frickin heck

Mechanics in these games is shit anyway my man
As all hack'n'slash-shits from PG

damn that's actually hurts you,you, YOU BIMBO

I can't think of a single way it's better really.

Bayos is harder than dmc3 on harder difficulties though.

>Hack&Slash is an equally stupid name for it.
it was there way before and people trying to change that because "I don't like dadwords" like you are the one sounding stupids with their own redefinitions.

That's not the point though the point is that calling them hack n slash makes 0 fuckin sense because there's no hacking or slashing anywhere in the games fuck you

>see you in the next devil may cry!
>there is no next devil may cry

Beat em up was there before some retards started using a word that already had a clear meaning to describe a genre that has nothing to do with RPGs

>Mad world
>No hacking

You play as a character who does action.

Literally no other genre like this exists

>only played a little of the demo
There we have it

Madworld could have been better than DMC3 if it wasn't on the Wii.

Suck my weanus you nitpicky cunt

I just call them action games, the word character adds nothing to the definition

It makes people understand what the heck you're talking about by referring to some specific meme genre. Action game is a very general term that applies to like half of all game genres

Your just playing at technicalities

"Oh dis isnt a hack n slash cause u use ur fists LMAO IT FIST N SLAP"

Really go fuck yourself you shlock cuck

It's not a fist n slap it's a belt scroller

What stage is that from?

Ive literally never heard the term used outside of Cred Forums and everytime someone uses it it starts a discussion on how stupid it is.
Might as well call them dmc like

Korra is a bend n kick you retard

v i d e o g a m e s

Like Deus Ex?

Or beat em ups because that's exactly what they are to people who aren't retards

MGS has characters doing action.
They even say "press the action button"

MGS is a character action game.

It's rug and munch.

stylish action

beat em ups refer to other games that don't have the stylishness to them like the CUHRAYZY games do, and capcom uses stylish action anyway

Stylish Action is the only term not coined by a youtuber and isn't just "cuhrayzy"

But beat'em ups are sidescrollers like final fight
Literally no one would understand what the game is about

It's not because you should watch long cutscenes in this series

Like a movie?

There are a ton of beat em ups that are stylish and have lots of moves, juggling and combos. The genre applies to everything from Double Dragon to Guardians/Battle Circuit/Guardian Heroes. Also that doesn't stop you faggots from lumping God Hand with the likes of DMC4 even though it has far more in common with classic beat em ups.

I still don't understand this "DMC3 is the best" thing
Maybe it has more style into it once you learn the combos (Which are very difficult since controls are retarded) but they are more of a side thing to the game the fanbase fixated on
Platinum games may be a little slower and less exploitable, but campaign-wise are much better, controls are tighter and they don't have retarded level and enemy design choices

An action movie?

>stylish action
This. Capcom officials use it and it stems from Kamiya saying how he wanted an action game that allows him to be stylish.

It's on the point and easy to grasp. It's an action game that allows the player to play it stylishly if they're good enough.

God Hand encourages you to mix and get good with dynamic difficulty levels, DMC encourages you to be stylish with a style meter, Bayonetta rewards you with an offset etc.

An action movie, huh?

Bayonetta is a character third person action shooter character action game shooter becuase you are a character and you shoot and do action in an action game where you shoot

Lets go play super mario world, my favorite 2d character action platforming adventure game

>Maybe it has more style into it once you learn the combos (Which are very difficult since controls are retarded)

video games

Platinum was founded by the heads of Clover studio after they got sick of Capcom's shit ya dingus

Tell me it's easy not to fuck up dodging in DMC without using trickster (which is slow)
Tell me the various buttons you have to press for some unique moves are tight and intuitive
Most of the people just spam the same combos over and over with DMC3/4, then go and fap to the videos on youtube where they get flashy using Royalguard exploits

>God Hand encourages you to mix
No it doesn't, all it encourages you to do is taunt, use the up dodge and not get hit. There's not much point to mixing up moves besides getting bored with square mashing and charged punch spam

"Character action" is a completely stupid name that makes no sense and basically only exists to pointlessly distinguish between action games that a certain vocal clique of gamers like (DMC Bayonetta, occasionally Ninja Gaiden, ect) from ones they don't (namely, God of War)

>Platinum
>No retarded level and design choices
>Mandatory 15 minutes shmup session
>Bullet time everytime you finish a combo
>Have to pause to switch weapons
>Making witch time pretty much mandatory in bayo2
>Underwater combat
I like platinum games but they have had plenty retard moments

nah gow2 is legit

>There's not much point to mixing up moves
Gotta be creative with crowd controls user. God Hand is all about custom movesets and unlocking new attacks.

Just jump? What moves are you even talking about?

Not all of them you stupid stupid

It's called CUHRAYZEE, reddit
Now go away

>Making witch time pretty much mandatory in bayo2

Making the main gameplay mechanic of a game an intrinsic part of high level play?

I'm all up for calling people to reality when it comes to Platinum Games but people saying that this is somehow worse than outright removing witch time is retarded.

I'm struggling to see if you're actually retarded or just funposting.

Stll less retarded than platforming moments in DMC3
But I agree, they made some questionable choices in Bayonetta 2 regarding underwater
You can switch between two sets of weapon in Bayonetta anyway and you can't change in DMC3 without mods

Nice meme faggot

If you've played Bayo 1 at higher levels of skill then it's annoying as shit that Witch Time is so necessary in 2

Witch Time isn't necessary to the combat. It's training wheels. And when you get to NSIC it takes the training wheels off, and then you can play it as it was really meant to be played.

Nope you don't have to be creative at all. Crowd control just boils down to getting your charged punch timing down and then following that up with air kicks. The moveset customization is overrated as fuck, the only things that matter are the few situational attacks with launch, guard break and evasion properties. Even then you can easily beat hard mode by just sticking to the same type of moves you get in the beginning, except stronger versions.

> as it was really meant to be played
Need some sources on that

The balance around witch time in the first one was pretty much perfect, its retarded that they went out of their way to make the game less fun.

Do you enjoy the taste of cocks? Bayonetta 1 is perfected once you get rid of Witch Time and move on to NSIC. You've literally never played it on NSIC or aren't good enough to appreciate it. And if you don't understand then there is aboslutely nothing I can say to make you think having easy mode slowmo that makes you invincible and get free damage on enemies is the training wheels of the game.

I was talking about mgr. Dmc3 came out like 10 years ago and they have improved the gameplay since then. But yeah platforms keep being bad

DMC3 is shit.

DMC3SE WITH the Style Switcher mod is not shit. But vanilla DMC3 is a supremely mediocre game. Style switching is basically required for the game to have any variety or depth.

Also, I think the idea that DMC3/4 are these super-perfect games is drastically overstated. They have really wide-open combat systems, that's true, but they also have like a decade of work behind them. The oldest games in the genre are always the ones that have the most interesting tech just because people have been picking at them the longest.... and the fact that the games are moddable has helped a lot (nobody's really able to pick into the guts of Bayonetta and see what may or may not be exploitable in there).

And the rest of the games are just shit. The core movement mechanics suck, the between-fight gameplay sucks, the enemies are punching bags, and the games themselves are extremely unfinished (DMC3 requiring a fan mod to be really fun, DMC4 being half a game played in reverse when you get Dante).

Bayonetta is far from perfect but at least it stands more or less on its own as a fun, challenging, deep and replayable game. I know that when comparing combat systems that's not gonna put it at the top of the pile, but in terms of the kinds of games the studio is putting out, I'd say overall Platinum is more likely to deliver a quality package. Itsuno knows how to craft a combat system but he struggles to actually deliver a full, fun game on-time and on-budget, which Platinum doesn't do.

When DMC5 is inevitably released, everyone will be disappointed because the game itself won't be great. It will be a return to what made the combat of DMC4 great but as a whole game itself I predict it will disappoint.

When is the next Ninja Gaiden coming out? I still play ngb and ng2. I have razors edge for wiiu and think it's fun, and even has some improvements over 2, but unfortunately the wiiu just can't keep up sometime. But to be fair there's also framerate issues with ng2 on the 360. Also bayo 1 and 2 are fun but I prefer the melee of ng.

>>Making witch time pretty much mandatory in bayo2

> Witch Time is bad

You enjoy it more that way, but you still can't prove it is the way it's meant to be played by the devs
Oh right, well I think MGR is more about reflexes than style so this never bothered me, I only use the sword anyway

>Witch Time isn't necessary
except for the fact that it's so intrinsically tied up in the weight and stunlock systems, since Witch Time "amplifies" the strength of Bayo's attacks, allowing her to juggle heavier enemies which she normally cannot do.

Whether or not that was a wise design choice is up for debate but it's inarguable that half of what makes NSIC (or the White Armor angels) so fucking annoying isn't the lack of breathing room WT provides, it's that you never get to really open up on the enemies to begin with.

I also find it really ironic that people who laud NSIC's lack of WT as a positive gameplay change are the same ones who piss and moan about enemy parry-outs in Bayo 2; it's okay when Bayo 1 steals your ability to juggle, but when Bayo 2 does it it's suddenly unfair? Not sure I'll ever understand Yoshe's deal with that.

I think Team Ninja wants to do NG4 after they do Nioh

Diablo and its clones are called arpgs despit not really being arpgs but they are action oriented more so than turn base

I'd remove Bayo 2 from that list and it's golden.

Personal Rankings are:
Vanquish>W101>Bayonetta>MGR>Bayonetta 2>>Transformers>Madworld>>>>LoK

Haven't played games that aren't listed.

I found it's pacing and level design to be better than any other Platinum game, shame to hear so many people couldn't get into it.

t. disgusting casual

You can still juggle enemies in NSIC, don't shitpost dude, you have to launch enemies with Wicked Weaves instead of usual launchers

Don't talk shit to me about a game you know nothing about

How would that make him a casual? It's pretty polarizing. You could love dmc bayonetta etc and not enjoy W101.

>If you've played Bayo 1 at higher levels of skill then it's annoying as shit that Witch Time is so necessary in 2

I did. High play in Bayonetta 1 relegated to exploiting enemies with trinkets and charging Pillow Talk.

Not that I think it's necessarily bad or anything since playing without Witch Time can feel more fast paced and tense but I always hated the philosophy of "let's remove this aspect of a game that's with you for". They're not training wheels, they're something that the games sticks with at all times. You can balance combat around the mechanic as Bayonetta 2 proved since enemies are much more resilient to it and the dodge requirements are much tighter.

I think Bayonetta 1 and 2 are somewhat different games at the end of the day which is why there's so much friction between fans of both.

>&2

No

It's backwards compatible now for the Xbone, so I doubt it will get one.

If you don't want to actually get good and just want to be a casual, then that's fine, but don't pull mental gymnastics to try and say it's just a shitty design choice because it became too hard for you to deal with.

It's not that far a stretch from Okami.

Congratulations user, you're now just discovering no action game requires you to actually go all out with the tools at your disposal yet still fail to grasp that thinking in absolutes is retarded because you still miss the entire point

Yeah but that requirement makes the game much more dial-centric, you can't command-call launchers.

Oh shit you actually have to do attacks to beat the game oh waaaaaaaaaaaah

Keep smoking the skin cigar

>Transformers not at the top of the list
And then there's this faggot

I like Infinite Space

>Also, I think the idea that DMC3/4 are these super-perfect games is drastically overstated.

Literally absolutely no one ever said that. Even the most hardcore DMC openly admit that 3 and 4 have a myriad of problems that hold the game down.

But then again, your little elitist "DMC3 is only good with muh Style Switcher" belch outted you as a retard straight away so I won't bother much with this reply.

>Witch Time isn't necessary to the combat. It's training wheels.

This argument doesn't apply to Bayo 2. Witch Time has been weaved into the gameplay and combat, and it actually takes some finesse to use properly. You can't just dodge and counterattack to win everything.

Bayonetta was was a Dodge Offset showcase. Bayonetta 2 is a more realized version of Bayo 1's mechanics.

You don't need Witch Time in the second game, even for the Lumen Sage fights.

>charging Pillow Talk.
If you want to sit in a corner and charge a "win button" then you're playing the game wrong you disgusting faggot

What a cancerous post.

>Madworld
>better than LoK
Not mechanically no.

All of them that matter including the director of God Hand you bogan cunt

The point is that it doesn't really encourage it any more than an old school beat em up with a lot of moves would. When you get down to it, God Hand has very simple 3 button combat with low combo potential and no rewards for said combos because the game is not about combos, it's about challenging enemies and crowd control. That's why it's closer to classic beat em ups than DMC4 or what have you, yet it gets lumped in with them regardless and no one has a problem with it. So I don't see a reason why games like DMC4 should be distinct from other beat em ups. Or 3D beat em ups which is a genre that mostly consists of games like DMC with the occasional poor attempt at classic beat em ups that no one remembers.

If I'm proven wrong and he doesn't happen to be a casual I'll silence myself but I've never once in these threads seen exception to people that didn't like Wonderful 101 and actually knew what they were doing. It always boiled down to struggling with the controls which are completely fine or having no idea how to sate what the game generally demands of you.

that's also an RPG / FPS-RPG, at least the original one is. The new ones might be just pure FPS.

Wasn't a fan of the looting or scoring system or stat system.
I still had a lot of fun with the game and would recommend it, just wasn't for me as much as their other games, sorry.

I haven't played it in years, I was giving it the benefit of the doubt.

>This argument doesn't apply to Bayo 2. Witch Time has been weaved into the gameplay and combat, and it actually takes some finesse to use properly. You can't just dodge and counterattack to win everything.

The problem is that Bayo 1 elitist just idiotically assume that Bayonetta 2 kept Witch Time in Infinite Climax mode, did absolutely nothing to balance it with the difficulty and called it a day.

>character action games

this meme will never catch on

what a stupid fucking way to describe it

Brawler goddamnit. Why is it so hard to remember that?

Koei Tecmo hinted that Ninja Gaiden 4 will be the next Team Ninja game since they're done with Nioh.

I played Korra yesterday. Make me think about SNES era when I just played TMNT because I liked the show and somehow gameplay was cool too.

A really hard feeling to get from a game

You know, Atsushi Inaba gave a GDC talk where he made the case that the secret to good action game design is to force the player to be reactive.

Players think action games are about being proactive (i.e. taking action), but really they're about responding to enemy action.

Bayo with Witch Time is like this. You must dodge at exactly the right moment, command up the desired launch command, and then begin your combo while maintaining awareness of other enemies nearby and remaining WT.

Taking away things like the timing reward for the dodge, forcing the player to rely on dialed strings and dodge offset to dial in the effects they want, these things add challenge but deprive the game of the moment-to-moment reactiveness that really defines the genre.

It's eveb not about what's more challenging on the aggregate, it's about what set of risks and rewards drives the player to spend more time in the adrenaline rush of reacting to THIS MOMENT, rather than memorizing and rehearsing

Except just before you were saying things that can precisely be applied to Devil May Cry. You're arguing the absolute that at the end of the day the combat boils down to something simplistic yet that also applies to every other action game. Having a style meter doesn't suddenly make that not the case.

The only worthwhile games they make is under the direction of Kamiya, Vanquish being the exception.

>inb4 bayo 2 even though the combat is a copypaste of the first one with an extra feature that casualizes it: umbran climax

so you're shit at dodge offsetting :^)

like smash?

It's not that it's hard to remember, it's that it's fucking stupid.

>did absolutely nothing to balance it with the difficulty

Time and combo requirements don't change in Bayo 2 depending on difficulty despite enemy encounters being drastically different among them

Your fun fact for the day

Having Climax Bracelet assigned its own button sure is excellent balancing.

I can see not getting anything out of the loot/craft/build system, but the combat system is just fucking flawless.

Vehicle attacks and Vatk chaining is just such a fantastic combat subsystem, the rest of the game doesn't need to exist. You can just play default-stat Bumblebee with D-rank starter weapons and the combat mechanics straight up sing.

They love videogames. Who else would you let work for Nintendo?

at least post the decent looking one

Smash has brawler modes but is still a fighting game.

Then go back 30 years and come up with a better name.

>Bayonetta 1 is perfected once you get rid of Witch Time and move on to NSIC.

"Look at me, guys! I'm a totally hardcore action game player! I play Bayonetta at an expert level! Most people don't understand it like I do, and aren't as good as me.

Witch time is a babby training wheels mechanic, Bayonetta is better without it. The developers put it in both games, but they're wrong! I know better than them, and I'm insulted that they force me to use a babby mechanic instead of letting me play the REAL way. Bayonetta 2 is casualised trash!"

This is how you sound.

The only true ranking for PG's licensed games.

Stone Trophy:

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: "There's actual timers in my moves" in Manhattan

Silver Trophy:

Korra "I'm just like every Platinum Game ever made but worse but hey, I cost 15 bucks"

Platinum:

What if Bayonetta was a car: Devastation

Pure Platinum:

*Vacant*

Transformers was by Saito. Actually MGR was too, which, while it isn't great, Jetstream Sam's DLC combat IS great.

>Bayonetta
>Hack & Slash

It's not just the style meter but that does play a part in it because how a game chooses to evaluate your performance clearly shows how it expects you to be playing it. God Hand's score has nothing to do with combos, Devil May Cry's score has a lot to do with combos. But anyway the point isn't really that they're distinct, it's that they are as similar as Guardian Heroes is similar to DMC so making it sound like classic beat em ups are somehow completely different games is nonsense.

And you sound like you're a tad bit buttmad, faggot :3

Pure Platinum will be filled in February by Robot Suffering Simulator.

To be fair Bayo 2 mechnically speaking is much worse than 1.

The fact that Hashimoto screwed up the near entirety of dividing skill floor and ceiling while making advanced play an arduous, superfluous task, says a lot about advanced players actually knowing better than he does.

That's fair

My bad for being stupid then

MGR wasn't great. MGR was fucking amazing.

Fuck off you literal child

Diablo is hack and slash, people have been calling it that for fucking ever

It's too well-balanced between melee and shooting from what I've seen, it will go over like a lead brick because the guns are more than 1HP juggle extenders.

But I predict that despite the poor reception among the CUHRAYZEE fanbase, it will be a masterpiece of a combat system and overall an amazing game

>It's another Kamiya cocksuckign episode.

Man, Scalebound must be right up your alley since they manage to shit more epic smoke and mirrors while being even more mechanically shallow than Bayonetta 1.

Why have a boss that takes advantages of gameplay strengths when you can make a phase infused, faux movie, platforming merry-go-round with big glowing HIT ME HERE targets?

Korra wouldn't even be that bad if there were more than like three enemy types and if firebending served a purpose.

Considering it was only $15 on lauch I can't complain too much

But Kamiya purposefully left Witch Time out of IC mode because of how the game is designed. You don't actually NEED it, the game is perfectly playable without it. Bayo 2 suffered a bit because Witch Time is actually mandatory to even fight some enemies like Sloths. That, in my opinion, just shows how well Kamiya designed the combat mechanics of the first game.

>Hack and slash is an established name for the genre, that's been around for decades.
Hilariously wrong.

You're hilariously underage.

Cuhrayzeefags aren't exactly bent on only liking games for their combat systems, unless that's what you meant.

MGR was a mash toward+X simulator though. A lot of really, really excellent combat mechanics that just got pissed all over because in any challenging encounter, that was the winning strategy. That or Hold RT + mash X, since Ninja Run granted bullet immunity and you could slash forever at top speed, so against rooms full of footsoldier enemies with guns you were an invincible hurricane of death by doing this.

Jetstream Sam gets an exception to this because his parries always leave him staggered, meaning if you mash toward + X you'll basically never successfully attack, you have to use his dodge rolls wherever possible.

Amplified by the fact that Sam's gameplay is centered around his Taunt, and when you parry Taunted enemies they basically get a free hit on you so OffDef is basically mandatory for survival.

My age doesn't stop you from being wrong. The genre these games belong to would named Beat-em up/Brawler in the 80s.

>The action genre is so devoid of life that the small lingering, sickly and angered fanbase that's left as no instinct besides cannibalizing itself.

God damn. Cool your socks, people.

>except for the fact that it's so intrinsically tied up in the weight and stunlock systems, since Witch Time "amplifies" the strength of Bayo's attacks

This so much. Witch Time is a guard break or combo starter, it has uses and functions that are mechanically complex and fun.

Same deal with Umbran Climax. It's not for dealing damage and killing things(primarily, at least), it's for modifying your attack properties and breaking an enemy's defenses.

UC and WT are offensive and defensive counterparts. They're both useful for different enemies and situations, and knowing when and how to use them is half of the fucking game.

Anyone that thinks that they're just easymode crutches for casuals is either egotistical, lazy, or uninformed. I just don't get how the people that loved Bayonetta for its gameplay can't appreciate the second game's ins and outs.

Or you could just cry sour grapes and bitch and whine about it like Yoshesque does.

This.
What's with all the shitting on good games?

>The game directed by Taro has better looking combat than the game directed by Kamiya
We're in a weird timeline.

This

Ya'll are autists

I like how people posting in these threads usually say that /cgg/ is cancer yet these very threads are excellent at mimicking /cgg/'s absolute worst behaviors constantly

I mean that most people who play these sort of games (not all) are pretty bad at aim-and-shoot mechanics. And Nier A not only makes aiming the gun a really important, viable tool, unlike TD (which does the console auto-aim and slow, cover-based corridors with mandatory walk-shoot to use it) the aiming is all done WHILE moving at full speed and attacking.

Watching the Time Trial gameplay it looks not-quite-arena-shooter esque, constantly running around and shooting at shit at top speed. I think that will make for excellent gameplay, but I think if you play mostly games like DMC, using guns in that way will frustrate you. Camera manipulation is rarely something required in these kinds of games; people complain frequently about being "attacked from off-screen" in Bayo because camera control is such an alien concept to the genre that turning it towards threats is something you just EXPECT the game to do for you.

Korra is a cheap whore!

>I mean that most people who play these sort of games (not all) are pretty bad at aim-and-shoot mechanics.

Okay I really would love to know your reasoning on this because there's pretty much zero overlap between aim-and-shoot displays of skill and action game players in these discussions

What is a /cgg/?

... What's wrong with calling those just "action games" again?

I wasnt talking exactly about the game and why it is perfect or not, I was talking about how Platinum is the Capcom/Konami of this era

Automata is a passion project. It's made by the core of people who made the series what it is plus a solid team of crunchers helmed by an extremely dedicated fan in Taura. ARPGs are what Taro normally does: it's just that for once he's got a team who actually knows how to make games fun. It's got all the right ingredients to be good.

Scalebound seems much more like an experiment, to use the best interpretation. Kamiya is just trying to wade into completely unfamiliar territory for him and it's going about as great as you could honestly expect. It might still turn out good, don't give up on it yet.

Because there's an established genre name already.

Too wide of a definition.

You have to at least attempt to narrow your terms.

A cancerous, forgotten place.

This is false. I've seen otherwise.

Scalebound would be fine on better hardware.

The consoles simply don't have the CPU to do what he's trying to do without severe sacrifices.

Hello Talesfag

Sorry your documentations and whatever were given such bad backlash, they were legitimately interesting. I wouldn't place them on the same level as the general games they had but it totally opened up my perspective on Tales games.

Also the Discord's pretty nice. Kinda dead but pretty much the best place to discuss action games.

Most of DMC type games are made with camera not being controlled by the player in mind or just minor adjustment with slow gamepad stick. Shoot and aim are 90% about controlling your camera quickly and accurately.

There's still zero overlap though

That's like saying people who like platformers are mostly bound to be bad at shooters. Hand eye coordination doesn't work that way.

I am a ROM/Lurker. Though it was always curious to me how the Tales series fits every criteria for a cuhrayzee game yet it seemed to be shunned there. Then again, not even that many Tales players seem to understand the games, much less someone who is foreigner to the series.

?
But Vanquish is always listed right alongside other stylish action games, and the players have no trouble being good at it and your bayos and DMCs equally.

The comparative unpopularity of Vanquish among the CUHRAYZEE community at large

Watching videos of T:D where top-level players like Saur just whiff every single shot they're firing after the auto-aim window timer expires.

The lauding of TW101 for it's isometric projection / the general criticism of games where enemy threats wind up off-screen (despite the fact that these games mostly make it very easy to turn the camera wherever you want to keep it pointed at threats)

People complain when games don't include a manual lock-on feature

Just a whole lot of things that suggest a fairly large subset of the melee-stylish-action playerbase is not very comfortable keeping their camera pointed at a thing they want to die.

Meanwhile looking at Automata, yes it has an auto-aim function to an extent, but what I've seen tells me that the players who really shine at the game are going to be the ones who make frequent use of manual aim while playing.

I think having to develop that skill to get good is going to be a weirdly large learning curve for a lot of this game's existing fanbase

I honestly never got that complaint many Bayonetta fags had against 2, and honestly i feels like i'm in bizarro world with so many people shitting in 2 compared to 1 nowadays.

I don't know either, I got 100% in both

also this thread is one giant bait.

sage

I guess the reasoning (at least from my perspective) is that it's difficult for viability and is a total pain if you want to play like a serious player.

Given how much time you need to unlock all the abilities, weapons, artes, etc., I can see why interest and whatever weren't high in /cgg/. Also provided the fact that not many of the games in the series actually have great combat systems. PS3 Vesperia is the only one with such noteworthy tech but in practice the game looks really boring. And nobody wants to really be proud of having a game solely for looking all that great in what's essentially a training room.

>he fact that Hashimoto screwed up the near entirety of dividing skill floor and ceiling

How so?

> making advanced play an arduous, superfluous task

You'd rather jump around and attack things wildly like in Bayo 1?

I prefer Bayo 2's gameplay. You're fighting enemies that can battle you on somewhat equal ground. You have options, you go in with a plan, you play offensively with higher risk, or you stay defensive and play the reactionary punish style. It's fun as fuck.

>Bayo 2 suffered a bit because Witch Time is actually mandatory to even fight some enemies like Sloths.

No it's not. Fighting enemies without Witch Time on infinite climax is definitely possible, it just requires an intimate knowledge of enemy patterns and familiarity with all of the tools that you have available to you.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't. The game's dead.

pretty much because it's an exclusive and people are still angry about it.
People will make continuous page long posts trying to break it down but it always comes back to that fact alone.

But Ninja Gaiden lacks a manual lock on and it's widely loved and part of what's understood to be the most popular action games of all time.

Nobody that isn't a filthy casual actually complains about Wonderful 101's camera.

>How so?

By removing a large amount of techniques that were availble for the very purpose of expressing advanced knowledge and execution.

>You'd rather jump around and attack things wildly like in Bayo 1?

Don't put words in my mouth.

>They've never made a game in the genre that's better than Devil May Cry 3
>Why do we worship them again?
Because DMC3 is the peak of stylish action games, so it's not the easiest job to top it.

Less polygons, boss fights are more epic.

Yeah and Bloodborne is flawless too

Hand eye coordination doesn't matter. Very specific types of hand eye coordination matter and honestly it's more about having little experience with shooters etc or only experience with console shooters.

>TGS is done and gone

>Absolutely nothing about Itsuno's current project, not even a fucking hint of an idea, even though he's been working on it for awhile now

>Still have this faint, delusional hope for DMC5

I could go for a shitty CGI teaser with nothing to go with besides the message that they're doing something.

Point being, being bad at aim and shoot is completely unproven. It's more like there's just no overlap period, and being good at aiming unless the enemy is high speed or whatever is hardly even an issue for people that don't even specialize with shooters to begin with.

That's Platinum's only RPG right?

But those games are supposed to be high speed enemy + high speed own movement with frequent direction changes.

What games, DMC?

We're supposed to be talking about shooters.

Beat-em up/Brawler mean completely different things than hack 'n' slash or character action, though. They all elicit different expectations. Just like fighting games.

Hack 'n' slashes are games that you can get by just mashing buttons. Typically one, primarily speaking. They're not designed to be particularly deep, mechanically. Musous are a subset of hack 'n' slash with a certain approach to how you do missions. Something you can typically expect from a hack 'n' slash is dealing with many similar enemies at once with perhaps a few specialty types. Examples: Kingdom Hearts, God of War.

Beat-em up/Brawler are more typically 2D sidescrollers with up-down depth, and usually have some flashy combos but ultimately their gameplay can typically be boiled down to an extremely simplistic level, that being move right or occasionally go up into a door, then defeat large hordes of enemies or maybe one or two supermooks instead 'til you come out the other side. Examples: Dungeon Fighter Online (also an MMORPG)

Character Action typically focus on allowing a certain flashiness to their combos outside of what is strictly needed to actually beat their game. Platinum in particular tends to like having a system of points and medals for grading as well. In addition, it is usually the case that you fight very small clusters of highly characterized enemies, each with specific unique movesets and different optimal defeat methods, the combination of multiple different enemy types resulting in different situations and challenges. It's more focused on small-scale conflict in general, although it's easy to lose sight of that when playing Platinum's games with planet-scale enemies. A performance-type game.

Fighting games typically focus on one or two enemies simultaneously, typically the former, although some do have a mechanic of swapping out characters. Typically any character you can fight, you can also play as, with few exceptions. A competitive-type game.

No, the opposite, people LIKE TW101's camera just because it doesn't have to be controlled/turned to see the whole fight. Which ties into the converse, the fact that games like Bayo make enemies go lifeless when off-screen since "point the camera at the threat" is something action game players by and large aren't used to doing.

Ninja Gaiden has no lock-on but as I recall it also doesn't really use manual camera positioning much. God Hand doesn't either (shit, I don't know if you even CAN control the camera in God Hand, except for by walking.

Look, I hope people love Automata for its aiming requirements, and I would love to see footage of people beating up one enemy while shooting at another, or dodging around danmaku waves and shooting projectiles down, or knocking armor off big enemies by shooting their weak-points before reaching them.

Hell, I'd love to see someone playing Nier A like D44M, just hopping around headshotting everything and meleeing once or twice only when too close to an enemy. That'd be interesting as fuck.

But I predict I'm gonna see a lot of people who can't get past playing it like Bayo, meleeing everything, dodging everything, and occasionally tapping out shots with lock-on enabled to buff up damage or get some secondary effect.

Isn't MGR technically a licensed game?

Yes if you merge shooting into DMC style games you get precisely that without auto aim.

>Examples: Kingdom Hearts
I would love to see you try your hand at KH2 FM+ Lv. 1 Critical. It's one of the least mashy action games period.

cause they're the only ones left that make those games.
Thats the hard truth

I think the bigger problem will be with making something great out of those shooting mechanics

The popularity of Vanquish in terms of advanced players is very low with cuhrayzeefags but that doesn't mean people don't respect it as a deep action game, for both its shooting and melee elements. It's always been that way, but people are also just too lazy to put in work overall.

It took over 7 years for people to finally uncover God Hand and that's 99% melee, that should tell you a lot.

And he might be one of the people who looks better with than without it.

That's not a game, that's a self-inflicted challenge within a game and does not constitute the primary form of play expected of Kingdom Hearts 2.

Also Reflect spam constitutes the vast majority of that kind of playthrough.

do you have any idea how salty people were about bloodborne's exclusivity?

That's STILL happening to this day and the anger surrounding that fact tends to overshadow any serious discussion

We'll just have to wait and see then

It doesn't matter if they won't TRY.

Half the reason it took so long to see advanced tech emerge for Transformers is that vehicle attack chaining, status abuse, etc., are tied deeply to gun use, and that was the half of the game nobody ever bothered with.

Wheeljack A Shit, why is that? Because he's the gun character. Because nobody playing these kinds of games WANTS to aim and shoot; they could learn to be good, sure, but they aren't already, and I think that will hurt the reception of the game. When such a large chunk of its core gameplay mechanics are basically ignored by the melee-action fanbase, it will come across as shallow and uninteresting, I think. Or at least, more than it ought to.

To be fair you could say exactly the same of Sengoku Basara but that doesn't mean it suddenly lacks the potential for interesting, high level map clearing play as well as combo outlets

That said Kingdom Hearts is still outside the character/stylish action/cuhrayzee/whatever you wanna call it because its gameplay is deep in a way completely different from the way we understand that genre

I think in Bayo there's actually stuff in the AI that tells them not to attack from offscreen, but I might be thinking of something else

Either way people complain about camera too mich in games that give you full control of the camera

Motherfuckers need to play some Monster Hunter

Better term: spectacle fighter (coined by Yatzee)

Nobody's disagreeing on the fact people need to try in order for this to happen. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand here.

I was pretty mad about magic not going away when you got hit

Made finishers feel less like a reward and more like "something that halpens sometimes"

>That's not a game, that's a self-inflicted challenge within a game
It isn't, it's simply the highest difficulty option; you're given the Zero Exp skill immediately on a first playthrough and the game was balanced around it. It's KH2 FM's equivalent to DMD mode.
>Also Reflect spam constitutes the vast majority of that kind of playthrough.
Except the moveset is highly varied and interesting, with very few options being bad or obsoleted (even early game options), almost all being viable, and many that are unique and very useful throughout the whole game. Lots of neat abilities (fractional damage, Stop, Magnet, counters, Summons, Limits, Drives) throughout, with KH2 expanding on the signature mechanic from the original (the normal hit/finisher system).

Shut up and kill yourself Yahtzee, that's the absolute worst name for this genre and you should feel ashamed of yourself for coining it.

>>They've never made a game in the genre that's better than Devil May Cry 3
Neither did anyone else, including the dmc3 team

And where exactly did you get any of those definitions from? Because they are a clusterfuck that has no basis in how the terms have been used throughout the years.

Well, KH2 is similar to Vanquish in that it's essentially a hybrid Action game. The whole cuhrayzee label is arbitrary anyway.

Yahtzee also counts God of War in that term.

Having potential for a higher level of gameplay doesn't make the game based around said higher level of gameplay. Character Action games are those specifically defined by being based around said higher level of performance gameplay, yet often choosing to not force you to have to reach that height if you don't want to. That's one of the core differences here.

Hyrule Warriors has potential for interesting, high level map clearing play and combo outlets, but the game isn't built around that, it doesn't expect that of you at all. Bayonetta and Wonderful 101 ARE built around those, with higher levels of difficulty throwing you into changed up challenges, introducing certain enemies earlier, limiting you in ways that force you to expand what you can do, while other games only ask you to do what you've been doing, but better.

It's definitely arbitrary but there's no doubt that Vanquish allows for a greater expression of both showing off and advanced skill to go along with it

Kingdom Hearts doesn't have anything like that. Whatever advanced knowledge and execution is in that game is much greater for the purpose of speedrunning. Creativity doesn't really "show" in the same way, if you get what I mean.

Who gives a fuck who coined it?

You kids and your fucking eceleb dick sucking, I'll never understand it

>that's a self-inflicted challenge within a game and does not constitute the primary form of play expected of Kingdom Hearts 2.
Then why did the developers include EXP Zero in the first place?

There's already something great there!

Yes, it'd be very cool to see something MGResque, where shot position determines enemy reaction (shoot legs to trip, shoot arms to disable attack, whatever). Yes, it'd be very cool to see Pods upgradeable with alternate types of gunfire, and/or "bonus" weapons with limited ammo or cooldown mechanics rather than INFINITE PEWPEW SHMUP SPAM.
Yes, it'd be cool to see shot accuracy tied to your rank/performance.

But even if we don't get that, what we've seen so far is unprecedented. The ability to melee one enemy and simultaneously shoot a separate enemy by aiming is insane; it's like aiming with two sticks at once (left stick aims the melee, right stick aims the shot. Effectively).

The weak point mechanics and destructible bullets, especially in tandem with the lock-on (which ALWAYS fires center-mass at the current melee target) make lock-on a nonviable alternative to real aiming. The switch to twinstick aiming for sidescroll and top-down segments looks really cool, especially in light of games like Furi and what they show can be done in the bullet-hell style with full 360 fights.

There's already something there with huge potential, I just worry it will go unappreciated... And that if you judge a game like that solely on its melee combat, you'll find it lacking.

Character Action is largely community decided though, provided it's not an official term. If you count it synonymous with cuhrayzee in this case then you'd be completely wrong. If you don't though well I guess that's on you. But it only goes to show how up-to-interpretation this all is in the end.

>Hyrule Warriors has potential for interesting, high level map clearing play and combo outlets

Wow no

Just because developers include the option for you to be masochistic doesn't mean the game is designed around it.

First chapter.

>They've never made a game in the genre that's better than Devil May Cry 3

Both bayonets are far better than DMC3. Get your fucking nostalgia goggles off.

We'll just have to see if it objectively is in the end fitting the same mold as other deep stylish action games

People hyped up MGR and look how disappointed that group ended up

>tfw Shinji Mikami got meme'd by Bethesda into leaving Platinum and making Evil Within

Fuck you Todd

>Just because developers include the option for you to be masochistic doesn't mean the game is designed around it.
Except it is, good job proving you never played it. Low level is mostly a defense loss. Most important abilities/equipment are given for clearing story fights, not leveling, so you don't loose any options staying at low level, and the damage floor means you're never dealing chip damage.

>By removing a large amount of techniques that were availble for the very purpose of expressing advanced knowledge and execution.

I can understand this point, but I think it really boils down to Bayo 1 and 2 being different games. The first game placed a heavy emphasis on air combos, to the point where, unless you're fighting a Cherubim or Seraphim-level enemy, getting that first air combo basically wins the fight, because most enemies air helpless in midair.

The second game did a lot to curb this, IMO in an effort to make enemies more threatening. Compare the basic Accolades to the first game's Applauds. The latter are fodder, almost pathetically weak, and quickly replaced by tougher enemies. Accolades are competent enough to carry entire sections of the game. They, like most enemies, can parry your attacks, have more stagger resistance than Ardor did, IIRC, and are actually dangerous when attacking.

The second game cut down on the free air combos aspect of the first game. They're still possible, but enemies can break out unless you take steps to prevent it.

It demands more from the player than Bayo 1 did. It's understandable that people might not like that, but it sucks that people had such a negative knee-jerk reaction to it.

>Bayonetta 2
>Better than DMC3

Hashimoto you hack please stay in your broom closet where you belong with Hayashi

Most enemies in Bayo 1 can't even be true combo'd either. Difference being that you had the option to display advanced techniques well in spite of that and that they did not carry you absurdly well for the most part just by being ble to do it. The game was balanced excellently on both a casual and an advanced level. There were also plenty of aggressive as hell enemies regardless.

Bayonetta 2 had a huge knee jerk reaction because its balance is awful. Combo scoring is a pain exactly because the very outlet which you're expected to work with does not. Half the cues are nonexistent, and demands even less from the player in any sensible regard, even moreso with its lack of advanced anything.

>Beat-em up/Brawler mean completely different things than hack 'n' slash or character action, though.
Nope. The genre just evolved over the years and transitioned to 3d. A lot of the genres still remain.

MGR is a great game though, it's just soiled by parry being OP and tied to the attack input.

Blade Mode and the weak point / body destruction system alone is fantastic, even if the tech available isn't all in the "frame cancel combo chain exploit" style people expected

Wow yes. Let's look at Agitha for a minute. On paper, she's one of the worst warriors period. Most people agree with this. And yet her butterfly mounting fucks up taller enemies like Lizalfos something bad and she has some of the most potent air juggling in the game if you can learn how to utilize her butterfly effectively instead of just spamming the thunderbug charge over and over. Understanding her butterfly mechanic makes missions where you're forced to use her a lot better.

Ghirahim. His lock on mechanic introduces dodge canceling to use repeated knife throws to stunlock enemies, allowing nearly any WPS to be broken in one extended combo of dodge-canceled knives even if underleveled, plus he can deal with multiple enemies simultaneously as it will cause attack effects to appear around the locked-on enemy regardless of whether you're attacking them or not, making him exceptionally potent at captain-clearing.

Higher difficulty Adventure maps are a lot more demanding, asking that you start figuring out which of your troop groups are expendable, which ones are not, and how off-screen battles work, such as the fact that when enemies are not onscreen, then a battle between them and your forces is determined by numbers, not movesets, meaning captains you don't want to deal with can be finished off by just hurting them a bit and clearing out their groups, then leaving your troops to finish them off. Target priority for demoralizing enemies becomes more of a thing. Figuring out which outposts are going to get taken over first allows you to set up an order and path to adhere to in order to achieve the best mission ranks.

A significant number of W101 fans found the demo to be fairly lacking in many regards. You have no idea how many times I've read that the demo put them off but they got the game later anyway and fell in love with it.

>People hyped up MGR and look how disappointed that group ended up
Are you kidding me? Everyone who wasn't a DMC-babby loved it

The combat isn't deep though. You can just get a lot of mileage out of BMC but that doesn't mean the game as a whole allows for a ton of creative potential.

I concede it's a great game but don't toot your horn too hard here.

Okay I admit I was overstepping my boundaries with the map clearing, but the combo potential in HW is still insanely lacking compared to even the GoW series.

Just because they have interesting tricks (relative to their own game) or common action game properties doesn't suddenly mean they can utilize them as well as other action game characters can.

>I didn't like Viewtiful Joe either.

Not everything is about combo potential you piece of shit

I meant in terms of combat potential

Please read

>character action games
Fuck off with this term already. They're "stylish action" games.

>People hyped up MGR and look how disappointed that group ended up
>things that never happened

its painfull obvious by playing the first third of the game where you don't have the good abilities yet that the game is extremely poorly designed for a "die in one hit" challenge

You read

git gud

I just want a ninja gaiden on pc. I'm so desperate I'll even take razor's edge.

I never said it was you illiterate monkey

What am I supposed to be gathering? Something I already agree with?

All I'm saying is that people who hyped up MGR's combat to be amazing were the ones that got disappointed, not the ones that were looking forward to it overall, dumbass. I don't see any opposition to your point which is the latter.

>I never said it was
Your argument is that HW lacks depth because it doesn't have combo potential.

No amount of gitting gud fixes the random ennemy patterns and offscreen hits, every good speedrunner agrees

>Difference being that you had the option to display advanced techniques well in spite of that and that they did not carry you absurdly well for the most part just by being ble to do it.

>Bayonetta 2 had a huge knee jerk reaction because its balance is awful.

Provide examples please?

lol no

No, someone else was saying that HW also had good combo potential and all I was saying was that it didn't. That's it.

If you read for a fucking second and didn't just pick out what triggers your autism the hardest you'd know I admitted my mistake with the map clearing possibilities that HW offers.

Fuck off.

I just want to know how they fucked up with tmnt so bad, there are other games are great if you enjoy hack n slashes but that game was complete shit

Okami is charming but it really isn't the best Zelda game.

The combo potential actually isn't that limited if you re-assess what you think is a combo. Maybe you won't be doing 50,000 different moves, but most moves have some kind of utility that gives them use in various engagements. Yes, most of your combo is based around doing the same 1-5 moves repeatedly to access different charge attacks, but dodge canceling into a new combo can be considered to be extending the old combo, plus strong attacks provide a decent buffer between combos with the end result being that very few characters are ever truly forced into not attacking and there's almost always something you can do.

Yeah but that's my point. There's a whole lot there in terms of skill and flexibility, but because it isn't 99.97% in the form of combo chains and special attacks, people ignore it or treat it as shallow.

I forsee something similar for Automata. A competent, fun, and serviceable melee system, but NOT one that is an endless font of technical complexity. The real skill ceiling, I forsee, will be mastering melee and aiming simultaneously; the ability to aim at something other than what you're currently meleeing opens the game wide open and I don't know if that will be ignored because it's a form of depth external to pure combo potential

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

>smash
>fighting game

youtube.com/watch?v=FMdu_dUzjfE
well if he watched this and for some stupid reason lived under a rock and bought revengeance thinking it was the same , i can see his point
but then he is a fucking troll or went into a coma

Smash is a fighting game, yes, just not a standard one. It's a bit of a subgenre. Calling it a pinball fighter would be more accurate.

I really hope korra fans get the game a sequel via fan demand, its one of those could have been great games

>smash
>a fighting game

are you going to make an argument or keep reposting the same greentext?

Why don't we just call them beat em ups.

But you can do that. My first memory of MGR was being totally impressed with how much of the level geometry, including stuff that affected fights (like cover, hanging walkways, etc) could be chopped down.

Because people are too underage to know that there's more to beat em ups than Double Dragon

Removed techniques from Bayo 1 to Bayo 2:

>Knowledge of differing enemy properties by Wicked Weaves outside Witch Time
>Combo reduction score gone
>Jump cancelling now has a cooldown (for whatever reason, it's not like it broke Bayo or was even a signature technique like it is in DMC)
>Taunt Offset gone (for whatever reason)
>Wicked Weaves in general losing huge amounts of the purpose it once had in Bayo 1, making any advanced play a joke

Well yeah, you'd have to be nuts to disagree with that. That's obviously not my point though.

>but because it isn't 99.97% in the form of combo chains and special attacks, people ignore it or treat it as shallow.

I think you're misunderstanding the difference between getting good at a game for the purpose of just showing off and getting good because there's a high skill ceiling in the ways you can do it, which isn't specific at all in any way to action games.

Hell, HW combos could probably last longer, and daresay, some could probably even take more time and whatever to be mastered compared to any Ninja Gaiden combo, but that doesn't mean people solely look at Ninja Gaiden for its combos. People look at it because everything else it offers lines up well with the very philosophy people came to be amazed at with these games and their potential to be stylish in positive reinforcement with skill, as opposed to just having them separate.

>smash
> um jogo de luta

Dungeon Fighter Online.

>I have never played a LVL 1 run

Actually experience it out before making a complete dumb ass out of yourself.

> the difference between getting good at a game for the purpose of just showing off and getting good because there's a high skill ceiling

but people keep hyping DMC when objectively the skill floor to beat the game in the hardest difficulties isn't particularly high and the ceiling for showing off is all they care about when discussing it

Honestly, the reason none of the modern platinum games never even come close to DMC3/4 for me is the complete lack of depth in the defensive aspect of the game. They all just boil down to hitting the dodge/block button at the right time and that's really it. Compare that to DMC 3 with the sword/gun styles where you actively need to see the attack coming, and either stun first or actually avoid the attack. Or hell, DMC 4 where you have trickster dash, royal guard block, or jumping to avoid any incoming attack, a choice mostly dependent on what will set you up best to attack yourself afterwards.

>great game in whats essentially a training room
Sounds like DMC4 to me. I mean I love all DMC games, 2 & FUCK YOU included, but lets not pretend that 1, most of 3, and some of DmC weren't the only games in the series with good level design. Not seeing why /cgg/ would REEEE at a Tales game for having shit LD

ok

>That's obviously not my point though.
Then I'm confused as to what IS your point.

I found this in an old thread.

I guess I worded that badly, so that's my mistake

But you should get what I mean with the last line.

Why has Cred Forums been shitposting them so hard over one bad game?

>implying you have
You're just parroting what others have said. I actually have played it, and found it to be dull and overly-tedious. A Level 1 critical run is fucking masochistic on a level that even someone who does naked runs in Monster Hunter can't stand.

>the duration of witch time is unknowable

stopped reading there, maybe watch the clock hand fgt

I can see your point, I'm just saying that if what you're after is a "you vs many AI enemies, and the challenge is to find flashier, more challenging and more creative ways to dispatch them all than you did last time", it's not right (even if it's popular) to reduce that to the core combo system rather than looking at other attacking and movement subsystems and how they can also be exploited to do that.

It doesn't have to be a question of becoming pannenkoek and taking the game way beyond what was ever intended, it's just about nudging the circle marked "combat" outward to include things like aiming and shooting, or blade mode, or whatever else. Essentially, "let's include combat that's about more than tapping buttons at the right time / in the right order".

All I'm saying is I see Automata becoming another Vanquish (or MGR, or T:D) in that it's got a lot of room for advanced stuff but it mostly gets ignored because in order to use it, you have to step outside of the DMC/Bayo style of play. I really hope that doesn't happen, I just sort of expect it.

Literally all these points have similar alternatives that could be made for dmc3/4

DMCfags truly are the most cancerous fanbase

>some of DmC
never did I ever think I would see someone on Cred Forums praise DmC in such a way. I don't disagree with you, but still

not him btw

>character action games
This is a slightly less useful descriptor than Multiplayer Online Battle Arena

Difference being there's tons of ways to make a "clear the room" scenario for DMC insanely interesting, for both bosses and enemies. That's not necessarily the case with Tales.

>Then I'm confused as to what IS your point

Combos can be more than just about pure quantity when it comes to potential, dude.

The opinions presented in the image do not represent the opinions held by the poster.

>found it to be dull and overly-tedious
That isn't an argument. The game objectively was balanced around Lv. 1 due to how damage floors work and abilities not coming from leveling.
>A Level 1 critical run is fucking masochistic
git gud

That's completely fair. I don't agree with your examples but I do agree with your main idea.

>one bad game?
Which one? They're all pretty bad.

>Cred Forums
>not shitposting over everything

>yoshesque
>DMCfag

Retard.

>DMC
>Playing like Bayo

inb4 but the basic control layout is the same

Contratarian white guy pls go.

It differentiates the genre from the action games where you don't control a character

One could argue that abilities that didn't come from leveling was a gating mechanic to keep players from being too strong early on in the game and to keep the game fresh as you progress, not evidence towards the game being balanced towards a Level 1 Critical playthrough.

>I'm a vapid casual

Learn how to git gud instead of whining at the game to avoid admitting being bad at it user.

TORtanic was a mistake.

>>Knowledge of differing enemy properties by Wicked Weaves outside Witch Time

... Huh?

>>Combo reduction score gone

This is a bad thing?

>>Jump cancelling now has a cooldown

You mean enemy step, tight? This was probably done to balance air combos.

>>Taunt Offset gone (for whatever reason)

We got Umbran Spear offset in return, which is infintely better.

>>Wicked Weaves in general losing huge amounts of the purpose it once had in Bayo 1, making any advanced play a joke

"Change is bad!"

Well considering the original game didn't have a lvl 1 challenge option you'd be a retard to argue the opposite like that poster has been

Regardless, what a game has been "designed for" is not a particularly impressive point since only the result matters

And the result is that KH2 is an awfull game most of the time with a few amazingly designed bossfights

Every action game gives you a character to control.

yeah but it's fun tho

>Being bad
>at fucking Kingdom Hearts 2 of all games
>the slip-and-slide hack 'n' slash adventure where the game practically plays itself
Imposing arbitrary restrictions upon yourself does not suddenly make Kingdom Hearts 2 a competent or difficult game, it's you making yourself weaker to make the game seem harder, and the mechanics by which the game presents these arbitrary restrictions essentially mean that the game becomes a masochist's wet dream, rather than an actually decent but challenging game.

KH2FM+ is not indicative of the base game, it is an expansion with additional features and is not relevant when discussing the core, base nature of KH2. Just like another discussion earlier, just because the game has mechanics that allow a higher level of difficulty or play doesn't mean it's built around them. I'd argue that it's far more likely that the game wasn't built around them, and players lucked into it not being a completely irredeemable experience due to base game being made for casuals.

The other hope is if the shooting mechanics are advanced and varied ENOUGH, it could actually bring in some of the arena and shmup crowd, and if it does, that would be fantastic. Just because a completely different set of eyes on a game like that would really expand upon what might be possible with that combat system generally.

Of course that's contingent upon the PC port getting good controls; MGR actually did, but T:D didn't (god damn that fucking negative mouse accel made aiming totally shitty) and if mouselook and wasd don't play fucking perfectly with Nier A it will immediately turn that crowd off.

But maybe, just maybe, the stars will align, and someone who plays CS surf maps will pick up Automata and make some videos and we'll start looking at its potential through totally new eyes.

That would be something.

>Huh?

I'm saying that enemies reacted in different ways outside of Witch Time to Wicked Weaves. Some enemies you could launch with them, some you couldn't. This goes even further because some of the ones you can't, you'd need to experiment with and see if they actually are 100% immune to Wicked Weaves, both inside and outside Witch Time. The main way to do this was by interrupting certain attack patterns. Bayo being a largely defensive game with Witch Dodging, this gives premise to a longevity of the combat's metagame, rewarding experimentation, player knowledge, and execution. It also gave much life to the enemy variety just on its own.

>This is a bad thing?

Well it makes Dodge Offset entirely pointless, and existed for the sole purpose of encouraging the player to get good. I don't see how removing it offers anything worthwhile to the center of Bayonetta's combat design.

>This was probably done to balance air combos

And I repeat, having Enemy Step in no way made the game broken to begin with. It was just adding a weird arbitrary limitation.

>We got Umbran Spear offset in return, which is infinitely better

It existed in the first game too you know.

>Change is bad!

Well unless you want to be an idiot and shove words in my mouth all day, I'd like to hear your take on how Wicked Weaves losing most of their reasons to exist and be used is supposed to be a good thing.

DmC:DE is the best western made stylish action hack & character action spectacle fighter, and I'd say is an above average game in general, just unfortunately stuck being compared to DMC because it is technically part of the series. Vanilla DmC was genuinely DMC2-tier, tho. I like DMC2 sometimes, it had some neat ideas but the game is so fucking slow most of the time, which was my issue with DmC, but DE fixed that

>the slip-and-slide hack 'n' slash adventure where the game practically plays itself

You commit harder to any action in KH2 than in any of your character action games where everything can be dodge/jump cancelled, the game hardly plays itself and on CM lvl 1 you have to know exactly what you're going for with every attack to not die instantly

Read through this, and her points barely hold any weight. She skimmed through the game once or twice and dropped it.

The problem with vanilla KH2 was it took way too much damage to kill Sora and you overlevelled. Final Mix's Critical Mode halves your health and reduced experience gained to 75%, but you deal 25% more damage and start with more AP and some abilities. Lv1, by all accounts, is amazing. Low level is mostly a defense loss (no Once More and Second Chance making you immortal), and slightly reduces your overall damage.

>And the result is that KH2 is an awfull game most of the time with a few amazingly designed bossfights
From a combat and boss fight perspective it's one of the best action games ever created.

Again with the "arbitrary restrictions" meme, Zero Exp is a difficulty option included by the developers. You're bad at the game, have no knowledge of its mechanics and your posts continuously reflect this. Post your Lv. 1 Critical run.

She did an entire Pure Platinum run of the game and then proceeded to play it further on the multiplayer, did all the extra stuff, and continued to beat it on NSIC if I'm not mistaken

That's a lot more than just skimming the game once or twice

>The self-inflicted challenge mode that the core game is not built around unfairly punishes you for any mistake demands that you play it absolutely perfectly or really hate yourself in order to get through it
No shit, sherlock.

>talking about commitment in games
I bet you don't even play Monster Hunter.

>Yahtzee
>likes Hiliary
You've never even watched him, have you?

Yoshe is doing what MANY people do; assuming their first [shooter / action game / rpg / RTS / etc] is the best one, and treating any deviation from its functionality as a change for the worse.

This is why things like the Zelda / Pokemon cycle exist; the first entry in the series you played is the one you judge the best, and anything a new game does that behaves differently is, in your mind, a detraction.

Yoshe is really good at Bayo 1; if Bayo 2 is different, that means she ISN'T good at Bayo 2. And who wants to git gud all over again when they can just go back to what they're comfortable with? This is also why she hates playing DMC3, though she knows better than to say "it's a bad game" in the company she keeps

Can you even read you retarded piece of shit? I never said he likes Hillary. Just that he supports her over Trump.

>From a combat and boss fight perspective it's one of the best action games ever created.

If we're talking only nomura humanoids bosses only, sure. The heartless / disney bosses that represent most of the actual bosses in the game are generally extremely mediocre and gimmicky, not taking advantage of any of the mechanics of the game. Same can be said for virtually every mook encounter in the game.

> Lv1, by all accounts, is amazing.

Amazing by what standard ? Sure it makes the game actually require you to learn fights since you can't just overpower them, but apart from a few key bosses most of the fights are terrible. There's a reason why people only show videos of them fighting Terra or the Organization members lol

>managing to take a belligerent tone while pussying out and not bringing forth any arguement, just hiding behind a smokescreen of changing the subject

I'm actually impressed

>western made
Because it was mostly Itsuno's team patching up their shit. DE and Vorgil DLC were entirely handled by them. It's barely western and it's still a clunky piece of shit. I'd rather play Darksiders 2.

Not him but she actually is a slightly better choice.

I mean, for me, DmC at its core has a "better" approach to between-combat gameplay than the other games which awkwardly try to futz about DMC's survival horror roots, and the variety in arena gimmicks really helps give it a different feel from its predecessors, but yeah, choices in the original game like wrong-color enemies entirely deflecting attacks really hurt the pace of the combat.

>I'd rather play Darksiders 2.
oh, please. That's like God of War but less satisfying.

>"arbitrary restrictions" meme
>meme
Zero EXP is an option included by the developers in a fucking rerelease, not the base game. The fact that it wasn't in the original release alone proves the fact that the game isn't built around it. It's just a fucking option added for masochists, and nobody should count it as being representative of the game as a whole.

>a difficulty option included by the developers
No. Critical Mode is a difficulty option included by the developers. Zero XP is an ability you toggle, and is an additional modifier, not an actual difficulty mode.

Darksiders II is pretty fun, and I like it. But it's out-and-out bullshit to say it's deeper or more technical than DmC.

Sorry, but it is.

I'm sick of seeing these comments in every Bayo 1 vs 2 discussion. Why is it that Bayo 2 simply can't be disliked because the player finds a ton of actual flaws with it. Why does it always have to be that the people that are the best at Bayo 1 can never accept Bayo 2 not for its flaws but because they spent so much time on Bayo 1. If that were the case you wouldn't have seen such a ridiculous migration of DMC3 player to 4 and back.

Fuck, can you actually name me one thing from Bayo 2 aside from Umbran Spear that was improved for the sake of its combat? Are you seriously telling me all those negative changes are somehow better for the combat?

At least provide examples.

And it's out-and-out bullshit to credit Ninja Theory for much of the DmC's mechanics. They fucked 60FPS off and pissed on those who wanted it back. Itsuno's fuccbois shoved it back in the DE.

There's no argument to make. You brought up Character Action games when they weren't relevant in the conversation, just because there's a handful of attack animations that you can't cancel out of, even though said attack animations typically can't result in death because they push enemies away or stunlock them so really only ranged enemies are of any threat during them, which again is significantly bullshit because being able to be one hit by ranged enemies is awful, no matter what game you play, this argument being that CMlv1 does not magically make KH2 a good game. Well, it is a good game, but not for the reasons being argued. Literally every single difficulty, even Critical Mode, plays itself because of how easy the game is, until you add Lv1 so you die instantly. What is even the point anymore?

>Tales series fits every criteria for a cuhrayzee game
But it doesn't which is why it was shunned. It was barely Basara tier and that was always the retarded cousin we just ignored anyway.

i disagree about it being clunky, it just has very strange, unconventional controls that take awhile to get used to. Not sure why they didn't just use a simplified DMC-control type if they wanted a casual friendly game.
>Itsuno & co handled Vorgil and DE
Well ok then, it's a hokey western made game with interesting ideas that was made into an enjoyable game by japs, which is fine. I don't care who made it, I just want more ok-ish action games from someone other than Plat.
>I'd rather play Darksiders 2
I loved the first Darksiders, but I couldn't bring myself to finish 2. It was just extremely boring to me

Basara's pretty underrated to be honest. If you like technical action games then after the first few hours unlocking moves, you should likely love those games.

Of all the choices DmC made, many of which were bad, I will never understand why people bitch so loud and so often about colored enemies.

DMC as a series is largely a game about getting one enemy into the air, killing it, and then moving on; crowd control is rarely a real concern. DmC especially trivialized this task with the whip pulls.

It's a logical step, in terms of presenting the player with a challenge both for completion and style, to say "here's 4 enemies. You can only attack these 2 with the first half of your moves, and you can only attack these two with the second half". That way, using your full arsenal of abilities (which is what DMC is about, let's be real) involves rapidly changing targets, and (in turn) keeping yourself near all enemies and maintaining their position relative to one another. Which, again, is fairly trivial with the whips.

The only poor choice with the color coded enemies was that some of your attacks (Rebellion in particular) affect none of them; for the most part, they were a very smart design choice that juggle-happy people hated because it involved developing a new gameplay skill to perform well against them.

My favorite DmC fight is the night club fight against the red and blue porcupine things. Having to play with space by dragging yourself to the blue one, and then the red one toward you and the blue one, and maintaining style variety by constantly switching focus between the two was a goddamn blast.

I'd go so far as to say that the color-coded enemies were actually one of the BETTER choices DmC made; at least they provided a fresh gameplay experience instead of "this is just worse Bayonetta with Nero's melee animations"

How about the basic things, like better movesets, better encounters, more enemy variety, Umbran Climax, and not being completely broken to shit by the Kilgore glitch? There's a lot of stuff in the game that is just more sound, like enemies blocking having a point now because you have multiple tools to circumvent that or break guard. It doesn't make for a flashy combo video but it makes for a more fun game.

>i disagree about it being clunky
I dare you to justify the shoddily patched in "lock-on" system and directional moves added in DE. It's a shitty Unreal 3 game glaring with glitches and bugs that deserve their own montage. We've been over this many times now, it's a sub par stylish action game in every aspect.

>I just want more ok-ish action games from someone other than Plat.
Sure, but keep in mind that one of the greatest games of this genre was sacrificed to bring you this unnecessary reboot that is inferior in every way. Defending its existence is nonsensical.

Eh, I like DMC's survival horror stuff, it adds atmosphere. DMC is my all time favorite series ever because of the tone and combat. Love Bloodborne for similar reasons. With that in mind I'll admit that I understand that a lot of folk's fascination with the series is soley combat, so I get liking DmC's approach more. I personally would've preferred more conventional DMC stuff like simple puzzles and exploration instead of the platforming in DmC but that's just me

>keep in mind that one of the greatest games of this genre was sacrificed
whatever you say, dude

And the DLC is fucking awful.

The entire game is fucking awful even with their involvement and constant monitoring.

Just look at Ninja Theory's previous piece of shit games to get the picture. They're even worse.

Attack animations were more fluid and non-dialed combos tied together much better, god that was a huge thing.

That and the much wider variety of weapon loadout possibilities since half of the useful stuff wasn't locked to either hands-only or feet-only. Having WT be time dependent based on attacks dodged (so super-telegraphed attacks netted less reward than ones that were tough to read). Enemy parry-outs demanding you play with positioning and try to get Bayo behind whatever you wanted to juggle, especially since you can MMK directly through enemy bodies in many cases as they attack. I also thought Bullet Climax was much better handled in 2, and I thought the general removal of white enemies made the game much better balanced (since Witch Time was an integrated mechanic rather than a thing that just sometimes didn't work).

It was also nice to see more weapon variety; I enjoyed Onyx Roses but come on, at the end of the day it's just Scarborough Fair with a tweaked charge modifier output. Hell, Bayo 2 has Scarborough AND LiB, that's two separate full sets just of pistol attacks.

Wicked Weaves are still useful in the second game. They have different effects on different enemies and dodge offsetting them is still a thing.

You can heel stomp an Accolade to knock it off its feet, which gives you a few seconds to attack it without being parried. Some enemies' attack animations can be interrupted safely with weaves, some enemies are vulnerable to them as a punish (Sloth's diving slash, Balder's stinger and wolf attacks, etc. leave them vulnerable), and a bunch of other stuff. Umbran Climax lets you launch without Witch Time, lets you stunlock almost anything, do stuff like knock enemies around to separate them, etc.

That's just ths pistols. The weapons are all fairly unique, and have hidden depths. There's a LOT of room to experiment, and the game rewards it.

> I don't see how removing it offers anything worthwhile to the center of Bayonetta's combat design.

Rose-tinted glasses, user. Diminishing returns on combo points are, to me, a 'weird arbitrary limitation' that doesn't need to be there. Why force players to use certain attacks and punish them for not doing so?

You're arguing for it to remain the same because "change is bad."

>I dare you to justify the shoddy lock-on
I won't, because it was a completely unnecessary feature that barely works. There's plenty of great stylish action games with no lock-on, they should've just left it alone. Also Unreal is trash for sure, especially for these sorts of games, but DE was enjoyable and didn't feel too bad. Not sure why you're REEEEing,Capcom has constantly said DMC isn't dead and 4SE proves this, why are you so mad that I'm enjoying vidya? I don't think it's better than classic DMC but it's an ok game(DE is, at least)

I'll be real with you - I didn't mind it, I was just trying to come up with a commonly-noted flaw of DmC because, honestly, I really don't dislike many aspects of the game. What I do think, though, is that guns definitely should have been able to hit colored enemies.

>My favorite DmC fight is the night club fight against the red and blue porcupine things. Having to play with space by dragging yourself to the blue one, and then the red one toward you and the blue one, and maintaining style variety by constantly switching focus between the two was a goddamn blast.
I wasn't a particularly big fan of this fight because I think it went on for a tiny bit too long (I was kind of lukewarm on that enemy type, in general), but it's definitely a solid fight that asks for a bit of thought from the player. I was actually more partial to the earlier, more gimmicky fights in that stage which throw the colored panels at you.

They advertised Umbran Climax as being counterpart to Torture Attacks, when in reality it became completely superior to them and there's never really a good reason to not use UC over TA.

I get that, and in the case of the first DMC, it really does feel like this strange but unique mix of a high-octane action game and a proper survival horror game. However, with DMC3 and ESPECIALLY DMC4, it's clear that the teams working on these games were becoming less and less interested in developing the survival horror part of the game, and in DMC4, it really just makes getting from one fight to the next kind of awkward and tedious, particularly because they expect you to do a lot of platforming with that ridiculous jump.

>tfw they had Dante's VA say something to a tripfag on video

This is cherrypicking certain parts of changes in Bayo 2 as better but ignoring them in their fullest. You're saying better movesets and more enemy variety when the two of them contradict eachother in nature withinin Bayo 2, provided the enemies' ridiculous resilience to even giving most of your moves more standout purposes to begin with.

Nobody doubts Bayo 2 has greater changes upon the first game but the bottom line boils down to its combat being more unbalanced as a whole, while being completely dry on the creativity front. Bayonetta 2 just boils the combat down to a button masher, more than 1 already was in most capacities.

>It doesn't make for a flashy combo video but it makes for a more fun game.

Look forget combos. Combos are secondary to the issue here. Bayonetta 2's combat is lacking is the bottom line.

If the second game isn't a direct expansion upon the first, combos or otherwise, that's perfectly fine. The problem is that it has nothing expansive on its own period and proactively punishes a mindset looking for more when it's still bothering with roots that are built for the complete opposite.

Even if you ignored all the top Bayo 1 players do you seriously think nobody, especially not the ones that spent so much time on the game to begin with, would've found any real signature benefits to the meta?

Nobody, not even yoshe, is saying Bayonetta 2 is a bad game. I'm pretty sure nobody has ever straight up said that. Everyone is saying that its combat is much weaker than the first, and unless you can prove differently for it on a whole rather than some tidbits everyone already knows, then it's going to stay that way. Not because of some ridiculous Zelda cycle mentality (which isn't even close to reasonable here) but because Bayo 2 on its own just fails to deliver in that aspect.

The colored panels were also smart.

Actually DmC didn't go far ENOUGH with color; they should have futher committed to the rough idea of Dante having Angel and Demon "styles", with fundamentally different movement mechanics (not just dodge tweaks) and special attacks.

Picture DmC but in Demon mode, Dante can't double-jump and his dodge is something like Royal Guard, and light attacks don't stagger him; in Angel mode he gets higher jump (plus the air dash) and faster run speed, but his dodge always goes twice as far (meaning it can be hard to stay in-fight when you use it) and even light attacks trigger huge knockback. Give angel mode weapons a "Stinger" that puts Dante behind an enemy but without stunlocking it on the damage, and Demon mode a special attack that does radial stunlock but has non-cancellable cooldown so if you whiff it you're wide open.

I'd have liked to see more of that, more levels with the "style tiles" like that arcade level... And more color-coded enemies, though again they should have ALL been susceptible to Rebellion and gun attacks. Stuff that forces you to really play those triggers constantly for a variety of reasons and adapt to the playstyle changes they demand.

Instead, DE backpedaled on it. Which I think is sort of sad, because if executed right it's something an Itsuno-made game could probably have done a LOT with, but rather than DmC being a testing bed for that it just poisoned the idea forever in the DMC fanbase's eyes

I thought it was fine in 3, a lot of people seem to not like Temi-ni-gru or however it was spelt, but I liked it and thought it had tons of atmosphere. 4 was pretty bad with it, though, I'll agree. Level design in 4 was shit so it's a lot less exploring and more "run down long hallway to next battle room" plus the wonky platforming. I just wish the series would leave platforming alone

>Rose-tinted glasses, user. Diminishing returns on combo points are, to me, a 'weird arbitrary limitation' that doesn't need to be there.

You were saying just last reply that enemy step was probably nerfed in order to balance in Bayo 2, but when Bayo 1 does it it's apparently criminal and "rose tinted".

I already know where this is going. Don't even bother replying, do us both a favor.

Torture attacks deal a huge amoutn of damage to an enemy instantly, without you having to interact with it. It's a safe way to instantly kill something damgerous, and you often get health drops from it.

Umbran Climax is still dodgeable, some weapons are still weak or slow to deal damage, and it's not a guaranteed kill on most enemies without prior damage.

DMC's high level play has evolved to be a game about momentum and positioning rather than combo construction.

Bayo 2's positioning meta is fascinating with the way back-attacks and parry-outs work.

ANY high level Bayo players even commented on it? Anybody tried to figure out how to play the game in a way that keeps Bayo positioned behind her target? That's a wide-open area with a lot of room for different choices and approaches, but nobody bothers. They hit until the parry-out and piss and moan about how mandatory WT is now.

There's a shitload of groupthink among the "top players" and let's be real, NOBODY is picking at Bayo 2 the way they pick at, say, DMC3. Christ for the 2nd anniversary they revealed that you could knock on doors in Bayo 2, did anyone even know that? Nope. Because nobody is playing it like that. They're just going through it, nodding along at the consensus, and going back to the games they know.

Which, okay, that's fine. You don't have to like Bayo 2, you certainly don't have to prefer it to Bayo 1, but don't go "it has less depth" when in the same breath you'd have to admit (and Yoshe even HAS) that you don't really even know enough about it's combat system at a core level to make that sort of judgment.

Ok

>Enemy parry-outs demanding you play with positioning and try to get Bayo behind whatever you wanted to juggle, especially since you can MMK directly through enemy bodies in many cases as they attack.

Show example please. And not some random one that happened through gameplay, I mean show that it's a consistent strategy that exists. I'm genuinely curious because this is the first I've heard of it working.

Do it yourself.

Can we just agree that you're all dumb white people who refuse to like things?

As far as I'm aware I wouldn't know how because MMK doesn't have a royal release type option and only guards, and I'm positive any time I've used it against an enemy, close or long range, in both 1 or 2, it hasn't had that effect.

So I'm going to need an example if I'm to believe you because my experience is in complete contradiction to yours.

I can see the mindset that led them to pull back on it, of course. It doesn't feel good to a lot of people to have their attacks deflected wholesale, and the feeling a lot of people from the color-coded enemies was that their options were being limited, rather than them being forced to vary the use of their kit, especially since Demon mode weapons kinesthetically feel a whole lot better than their Angel mode counterparts. I definitely think that could have gone further with the color switching - Demon mode emphasizing its sense of power and Angel mode emphasizing its sense of agility would have been appreciated, although I can't help but feel that vanilla Donte would have been more often ignored in common gameplay, were that the case. It'd be hard to juggle three completely different "styles" like that, I imagine, although all enemies being vulnerable to neutral attacks - and perhaps receiving extra damage (with a more satisfying impact sound) from correctly-colored attacks - probably have gone some way to alleviate that sort of issue.

I agree that the atmosphere in DMC3 is pretty strong, but the actual survival horror "puzzles" are pretty week, and it lacks that sense of exploring a location that I felt from DMC, which is weird because the game manages to be both entirely linear and yet is still surprisingly easy to get lost in, at least in the first half. Still, there are plenty of parts of it that are good, and it's definitely not nearly as bad as DMC4.

>Anybody tried to figure out how to play the game in a way that keeps Bayo positioned behind her target?

Given that it was the very first thing about Bayo 2 combo breaking circumvention that spread like fire since Daedron uploaded it, literally everyone has. It's not fresh open doors if everyone's already tried, and concluded that if there's a meta to exist for it, then it must exist by ridiculously frail and meaningless practices.

>Christ for the 2nd anniversary they revealed that you could knock on doors in Bayo 2, did anyone even know that? Nope. Because nobody is playing it like that.

The fuck does knocking down a door have to do with the core combat?

>pretty week
what the fuck am I doing

Oh yeah also

>muh groupthink
>DMC's high level play has evolved to be a game about momentum and positioning rather than about combo construction

You sound more and more like you're just spewing this out your ass in order to seem like you know what you're talking about.

DMC was hardly ever momentum based, and positioning only mattered for high level play in 3. That went out the window in 4, but in either case, combos were the means by which high level players managed to stay alive on DMD, which is why you can still see them doing it even for modern DMC meta, for both 3 and 4.

Educate yourself please.

Is it not common knowledge that enemies attacked from the back cannot parry-out?

Or do you mean MMKing through enemies?

I was able to find this video of Bayo 1, I'm like 99% sure it works the same way in Bayo 2, in that a "perfect" MMK will always trigger a counterattack that puts you behind ("through") the enemy.

youtube.com/watch?v=r5N-QHcTSGY

That's an "advantageous" position that means almost nothing in Bayo 1 but has a serious function in Bayo 2, which I think is an interesting uograde for the combat

>but when Bayo 1 does it it's apparently criminal and "rose tinted".

There's a difference.

Everything in the second game was changed for a reason.

Bayonetta 1 had a lot of needless tedium and artificial difficulty that was of no benefit to the core gameplay. Instant kill QTEs, diminishing returns, and such had no justifiable reason to be there.

The second game made a lot of changed to the combat, yes, but most of them were changed for a good reason. The game is played in a different way, and things were changed to fit that. It's not bad because you don't understand it.

You're arguing for a square peg in a round hole.

>There's a difference
>Entire post has nothing to do with enemy step and combo score reduction specifically in the context we discussed them in

You're really not helping your case.

Torture attacks serve the same purpose they did in the first game. Your proper Wicked Weaves now occur during Umbran Climax, so there's a resource-management aspect to it.

Okay but how exactly does this make attacking from behind an expansive place for Bayo 2's meta?

Because Capcom doesn't make DMC games anymore

Not him, but I'd praise it the same way.

aaaaand we're done.

did I entertain you, user?

Bayonetta 1 = air combos
Bayonetta 2 = from-behind combos

They both exploit a weakness in enemies' defenses.

Also note that some enemies have telegraphed backward attacks, some of which don't turn them around. The centaurs' horsekick is a good example.

Because a number of attacks in Bayo 2 (stinger kick vs fist, Witch Twist vs Heel Tornado) are primarily different only in how they move Bayo, since their knockback effects are almost identical. There are also combo-chain attacks (unless I'm confusing Bayo 2 with T:D again since it's mostly what I'm playing) that have the effect of turning the enemy around backward. You have ultra-shortened WT durations on many boss attacks but they DO give you enough time, with proper dodge direction, to rotate around behind the enemy and land one hit.

Which is just to say, what I'm seeing generally from "high level" Bayo 2 play is mostly ignoring this aspect of the combat (the advantage of back positioning). It's not like there was a big push to achieve it and it was concluded to be impossible, nobody really tried to shift play in that direction. But so many of the game's controversial balance choices (parry-outs to break combos, "witch time for 2 hits then repeat", nerfs to MMK's WT bonus and counterattack damage, etc) seem to be based around more focus being put on where Bayo is relative to the enemy.

It seems to me that the game is encouraging people to think about where Bayo is relative to her target in terms of maintaining long combo chains, but skilled players aren't really bothering to explore that very much.

Well I can't deny that.

I still think Bayo 2 is several leagues down from 1 but at the very least you changed my opinion on it significantly.

Thanks for the info. Sorry if I was abrasive or rude.

>I was only pretending

I know replying will make me seem dumb either way but seriously, could you and everyone that does this just please not.

Nobody's actually expecting NieR:Automata to be as "deep" as these games, right? It's going to have stylish combat, that's all.

I'm worried cuhrayzee enthusiasts get pissed when it comes out and it's nothing like DMC, Bayo, MGR, etc.

It's weird that, no matter how much people talk about this community being trash or how much shitposting these threads start out with, they so often end up as legitimate discussions by the end. It's one of the only topics I see this happen to here, I don't really understand why.

Oh fuck you.

I tried to have a discussion with you. I made my points, I provided examples.

In return, I got nothing but nebulous opinions with no specifics to back them up or use as basis for rebuttal, moving of goalposts, and ad hominem.

You're either a bored shitposter or an utter fucking moron. Which is it?

I'm a bit worried about the shitposting, but I am loving what I'm seeing from this game and from someone who managed to like drakengard 3 I think I'm gonna be very happy to play this.

How do I git gud at W101?

Now that you mention it, a lot of attacks that stagger will knock enemies sideways, whip slammed enemies face away from you, and attacks like heel tornado and witch twist both move bayonetta around.

Please post more, if you have it.

i can find old DnD modules from the 1970's and the reviews of them refer to them as hack and slash

>Sorry if I was abrasive or rude.
Thank you, but I'm a different user. (I think)

I beg your pardon but "hack and slash" games were originally about games with RPG mechanics with "killing as many monsters as you can" being your main objective. Diablo is good example of HnS.

>playing anyone other than Optimus Axe+Hammer
gay

>W101 pacing
>better
>that unending move the warship between the buildings segment
>those starfox segments
pls no.

I love TW101 but it's got too much of Platinum's minigame autism.

And that's why you never see demos anymore.

Same here, user. Quick question, DoD3 was the last thing he made, right? How does the story hold up? If it's mediocre I'm a bit worried for Automata.

FPBP

Character action is such a stupid ass term

Its combos were great but nothing was worth using them on (like, say, Vergil or Jeanne or Credo Angelo). It was like those DMC4 webms you see of someone juggling scarecrows but with less depth and that was the entire game.

4 stepped it up but not enough.

Believe in Kamiya

The story is decent and I personally really enjoyed it. What was mediocre was the game design, but I'm not that worried about that for this game. Only thing that might happen is they go too crazy with the camera angles.

From what I've seen the people with that belief aren't us cuhrayzee autists but more Nier fans who have hijacked the hype train and put their foot down.

>tfw you don't own Wii U and W101
fucking hell

W101 and Bayo2 are the only Wii U games I want to play. I'm not buying console for only two games but it makes me fucking mad

Drakengard, including DOD3 is a lot more... madness and insanity than Nier, which is sadness and heartbreak. You can expect that sort of thing from DOD3.

That's a relief.

>crazy camera angles
youtube.com/watch?v=_R5C4KV2Q14
You almost can't see 2B here, it's great.

That's fair. I do know it's getting a lot of attention from people who really like Platinum Games. I just hope Taura gets a good balance going to please most people.

I still can't believe Itagaki was responsible for Devil's Third

>mfw bought a Wii U for Bayo 2 and W101
>mfw there's talk of Bayo 3
>mfw will have to buy a fucking NX if I want to play it

Things can get heated but at the end of the day all of these games are still great in their own ways and because they require some skill to play and git gud it's easy to detect who is just spouting baseless shit and who actually plays them.

You need to know what you're talking about in order to criticize their mechanics. Kinda like fightans.

Can't really blame him. The game's development was a mess.

Transformers felt more like re-skinned MGR to me.

Speaking of licensed, isn't MGR technically licensed?

NO ONE ELSE IS WILLING TO MAKE THE GAMES I WANNA PLAY. Fuck.

Drakengard/NieR's fanbase has always been fairly chill. The reason for this is because these have been extremely niche games, which we are drawn to not because of the gameplay, but because of the experience of the story and music and setting. And it is a worthwhile experience. Like, it's not necessarily that they're designed to be experiences, but the gameplay has always been lacking in a way that the only real way to appreciate them was as experiences.

Nier Automata will be the first game to have better-than-serviceable combat and world design both, as well as the Yoko Taro narrative experience as well. I'm really looking forward to it.

I think most people will enjoy it. The /cgg/ autists are pretty much expecting something kin to MGR, which it looks like it'll deliver on, and everyone else who played DMC and Bayo once then never touched them again won't really notice the difference anyway.

You shouldn't be so picky with games.
I too bought a 360 only for Bayo but I found other games on the console I ended liking. Same about the Wii U. Hell, I also bought a ps4 for Nier Automata and I use it to play Ratchet and Clank.

>idort is better

Because they try.

It's a side effect of /cgg/ dying. The retards get bored of shitposting and leave before everyone else gets bored of the discussion.

>bought a ps4 for Nier Automata
>Didn't wait for Christmas price drops/sales

>Things can get heated but at the end of the day all of these games are still great in their own ways and because they require some skill to play and git gud it's easy to detect who is just spouting baseless shit and who actually plays them.
My thoughts exactly.

It goes with fighting games as well.
>UMvC3
>people on Cred Forums consider Vergil because JWong got 50/50'd twice in row
>no one mentions that he's OP only on XF2/3 and needs at least 2 bars to be able to bypass blocking

You could've just said no

I hated Nier's story and experience and am buttmad Platinum's work is getting wasted on them.

I maintain the only way a Platinum game could be faithful to the Nier experience is if your combat rating is instead based on how much despair your actions sowed and the rankings dictate how long you'll be forced to watch characters scream, cry, wail, and sob afterwards. if you get a SS+ rank for the combat, it will be 10 unskippable minutes of crying.

Don't worry, if you have a decent PC they'll both be playable in a few months probably.

>Dmcfags will defend this

At least Platinum games aren't as easy as this

Before anyone bites: that's just a youtube video playing in the background.

Maybe you should consider not just getting every single Platinum game and praising their work as that of gods.

I maintain that, if you're not here for Yoko Taro's writing, you probably shouldn't be here at all.

Bought it used from a friend for 200 bucks. He wanted to build a PC.

This stopped being funny the first time

Or maybe this Auto Mode? I've never tried it

People memed me into thinking Yoko Taro's writing was good the first time. You don't get to say Nier is great Nier is great Nier is great the best the deepest amazing writing and then "Well it's not FOR you" when I don't like it.

Once again, the Playstation fanbase proves to be the worst one.

Well you don't have to like something.

No, user who made it wasn't even serious and he said that it's a youtube video. It's parodying videogamedunkey's joke video about Batman Arkham City that got made into a webm and shitposted on Cred Forums youtube.com/watch?v=W2EZZVW7jjQ

>DMC4SE gives you the opportunity you've been dreaming about all these years: A chance to play DMC4's fucking garbage campaign 12 times!
>And if you just want to play the combat, you can play Bloody Palace where there is 30 minutes of mindless mashing before the game gets hard
The one thing I wish DMC4 had was a similar mod to DmC's Bloody Palace Gentleman's Edition. BP GE in DmC just turned it into 50 really tough DMD waves that got going fast.

Nier IS great. But it's also niche. Not everyone's going to like it. A measure of something's greatness is not only in how easily it is consumed by the masses.
I mean, you do understand the concept of tastes, correct?

>People memed me into thinking Yoko Taro's writing was good the first time
If you're going in expecting Shakespeare or Citizen Kane or some shit, you're going to be disappointed. The value in these stories is the despair and sadness and madness, and discovering just how deeply literally everything is fucked, and how badly shit will continue to be fucked well into the future as a result.

Although Yoko has said that this game may well have something that may be considered a happy ending, unlike his previous ones, to which I can only say "there's no way that's not bullshit."

you dont "not prefer it", you have literally zero knowledge of how the game works or how to play it competently. That isnt "not preferring it" its more like "not understanding it."

>we

wonderful 101

>happy ending
The producer, Saito, said he was shown the plot by Yoko Taro and said something along the lines of "no matter how you look at it, it's not a happy ending!".

Actually, often in interviews I see Yoko Taro keep saying that he personally doesn't particularly view his stories and game world as "dark" or "sad".

I understand the difference between tastes and greatness well enough to say Nier is a far cry from greatness in any measure.

Bayonetta's defensive game is much larger than DMC's though

>YOU CANNOT NOT LIKE MY FUCKING GAME!!
Is that you Todd?

but on the lower difficulties bamham can just mash the counter button

I really, really, REALLY love the transformers game. It was my first platinum trophy.

You can dislike it, but your opinion is conjecture. Its not valid

It is great in the measure by which its fans enjoy it, if only because there is little else like it.

Well, he IS a man who thought that witnessing his friend fall and split his head open on the ground, dying on the spot had humourous elements in hindsight. I feel like he probably views the the concept of tragedy a little differently than others.

actually they're called fighting games because there's fighting going on

>non-combat or goofy camera challenges
That said, it's really good. I'm getting my dick stomped in on Insane though.

If that is the measure I can agree to that. I don't think that is a good measure for greatness but there's no need to get TOO autistic about it.

To be fair, Double Dragon Advance is an incredible beat-em-up, and there really is something different between DDA, SoRR, Streets of Fury, Shank 2, etc and the likes of DMC, Bayonetta, NG, MGR etc.

This is the best fucking thread I've seen on this board in ages

You must not play too many games then

Or at least not the right ones

Bayonetta 2 = Bayonetta >W101 >MGR>Vanquish>Mad World >Transformers>Anarchy Reigns>Korra>TMNT>Infinite Space

Holding judgement for Scalebound and Nier Automata.
I liked SF Zero and Guard but I know the guy that still thinks Platinum didn't work on them is around so I omitted them not to trigger him

Bayonetta's more fun for anybody who's not playing on DMD aiming to no-damage Vergil.

It's irrelevant though because W101's better then them both.

Switch Vanquish and MGR, put Bayo 2 above MGR, and you have my opinion

>Scalebound
What's the general opinion of this so far? Kamiya has a pretty clean track record, right?

When is that game even coming out?

It will be divisive like pretty much all Kamiya games.

Their criteria was kind of wack anyways. MGR counted, but Darksiders 2 didn't, which was confusing in itself as Rising didn't reward creative or flashy gameplay, just armor breaking and zandatsu as quickly as possible.

see ya later thread