Design is much more important than code

It's pretty true, though finding a good designer also means finding a designer who understands the limitations of the engine, what the programmers are capable of, etc. and adjusts accordingly.

The idea of "designers vs programmers" is bullshit, it should be "designers & programmers" vs "the dickhead publisher who doesn't actually understand how games are made"

Just look at Bethesda

>incompetent coding
>incompetent art
>still raking in millions

Sometimes designers can find problems that allow coders to improve their engines.

For instance, BSP tree's were applied to video gaming by John Carmack because they found out one of the parts of the levels made the system chug really hard.

...

>incompetent coding
>incompetent art
>incompetent voice acting
>incompetent writing
>incompetent gameplay
>semi-competent worldbuilding

10/10 GOTY ~IGN

My point is you need both. The guy who programs (or who has strong technical art skills) is useless without the "idea guy" who can inspire them to do their best work.

Bad design.

He made a game that only he was interested in playing. He still likes it for himself.

You clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Even the most basic shit was relatively complex to create with code.

His statements about design and code knowledge have never been more true than they are today.

People still care about this faggot?

He doesn't even DO anything anymore.

He isn't saying that programming isn't important. You need code the same way Fallingwater needed wood and plaster. The point of the quote is that everything is ultimately defined by the design, even if design isn't wholly divorced from programming.

ft. Guy who made Daikatana and whose career was COMPLETELY over when him and Carmack split.

How is that working for you, Romero? I hear you were a gas station attendant for a while to make ends meet. Suddenly, Carmack is his bizarre autism which catapulted him into pioneering VR doesn't seem so nerdy anymore, does it?

Both are needed, but if you have the basics of code and excel in design than you're set.

The reverse, however, is absolutely not the case.

Because normies eat that shit up.

Bethesda was a mistake.

Excuse me, sir, but need you be reminded of The Black Room, the upcoming Romero game that is going to be crowd funded?

What could possibly be so wrong about Daikatana? It's just another 90s FPS game. Wasn't Quake or U/UT?

What's the dill?

Then we get every id game after quake which was shit

Romero is still a multi-millionaire, he owns an indie gaming company with his wife in Greenland or some shit.

The fuck you've done with your life?

AI companions

It's like living in a minecraft world!

Lots of broken features made it unplayable. You are dependent on AI teammates, who are barely able to keep from getting stuck in walls constantly.

>pioneering VR

the classic doom games had good design because of tom, adrian, and american, not romero
prove me wrong

>was COMPLETELY over whenhim and Carmack split

>he was an executive producer for Deus Ex

The only good doom episode is by romero

Pfft, okay.

What difference does it make about his point (assuming that's an actual quote--I didn't check)?

>American McGee

>literally a mechanic that Romero knew and pulled in off the street after asking him if he wanted to play-test the game they were working on

WEW

It's basically the difference between Art and Craft. The finest of Craft may sometimes transcend its utility and become a work of Art, but Art has never needed to do the reverse to be appreciated for its own sake.

That doesn't make one "worse" or less valuable than the other, they just serve different purposes. An architect's technical drawing isn't going to end up in a museum, unless perhaps it's by someone like Frank Lloyd Wright, that is viewed as having reached the pinnacle of their craft. Conversely, nobody's going to want a house built based on careful study of the Mona Lisa.

Game looked like shit anyway.

Me on the right lmfaooo

Video games are not art.

I agree, good design can save a game.

It is, it's from some "Devs Play" series on youtube, where Romero was saying how important design is in a game so that it keeps players interested, but also keeps gameplay fun.

While what he considers "fun gameplay" is subjective (see Daikatana, where he had the most creative control), his philosophy is still true.

I wish this fucking faggot would get a haircut.

He's absolutely right.

Edmund Mcmillen doesn't know a lick of code and yet millions of people love Super Meat Boy and Binding of Isaac because of his design.

I bet 99% of the people you ask know HIS name, but don't know the name of the person who programmed Binding of Isaac. Designers are what make a game great.

I didn't say they were you sperglord.

they fucking are though, get fucked

Just like an architect needs laborers, yes.

A game needs a good designer more than a good programmer. A competent/average programmer or group of programmers will suffice. You can't really say the same for designers if you want a game that's more than mediocre.

Design is the money maker, the mass of people are gonna be more interested if they see a game that just looks cool.

>tfw you are the idea guy of your own videogame and everyone follows every word that you say

Is Gabe Newell a programmer?

>He owned the company, and that's how he got executive producer spot.

>He was literally working on a game that got canceled when Deus Ex launched.

He was one of the developers of Windows my dude

>The fuck you've done with your life?

Probably way more than an idea guy who got lucky.

What have you done with your life?

Yes. He used to work for Microsoft and did programming on Doom 95.

He also did playtesting for Deus Ex, as a bonus.

>He owned the company, and that's how he got executive producer spot

That's usually what happens when you've been involved with some of the biggest projects in a medium for almost a decade.

what is valve alex

Nope, they are toys for children and child like adults.

Not art.

Idea guys are pretty important... but many so-called game engineers forget this. Then idea guy teaches himself to code and welp. You end up with a java applet worth $2 billion USD.

Considering 90% of Cred Forums's recommended games are broken pieces of shit, of course he's right.

Very much so. Harvard graduate one, at that.

He's right.

Being anti-ideaguy isn't being anti-design.

And the only good games Romero worked on had an amazing programmer behind the coding. Sorry Romero but fuck off.

>an idea guy who got lucky

>Romero is the reason American McGee works in the industry
>is the reason Heretic and Hexen exist
>is the reason Deus Ex exists
>is the reason term "Deathmatch" exists

Ideas matter a whole lot more than code.

Carmack hasn't made shit since the split. He made bad engines and garbage like megatextures then jumped on the Oculist Rift which is a failure. Romero will always be the true talent behind Id at its prime.

This guy has made me hate Iwata (Nintendo guy)

It turns out video games aren't as complicated as I thought. Just think about how Nintendo has been going on for 30 years, and only ONE guy has died and how it's that ONE guy we immortalize.

Carmack had nothing to do with Doom or Quake's game design. There isn't a single level whose design is attributed to Carmack.

He made a good engine, but if Doom played like a hot piece of shit it probably would've been a game that'd be forgotten by now, only remembered for its shiny pseudo-3D graphics.

The gameboy guy died, that was a big deal at the time.

>>You can be the greatest programmer in the world, but if your design is shit, no ones going to play your game

RAGE

>Amazing programmer
>Carmack
Pick 1. Man hasn't done anything worthwhile because code is just laying bricks, it doesn't require any creative thought or talent. I know Cred Forums is full of unemployed CS majors but don''t pretend coding is anything more than the menial labor of the 21st century.

Creative and imaginative, sure... but talented?

And without Carmack Doom wouldn't exist either. The point is that you need both, otherwise if you only have an ideas guy like Romero you end up with Daikatana instead of a great engine in which the designers can flex their creative muscles without too many restrictions.

Doesn't he literally run a rocket science program?

>game with a god-awful fucking engine that took literally seconds to render the fucking textures you were staring at
>lack of interesting concept, enemies, weapons, or levels
>everythings very boring, generic, and samey

You couldn't have given a more apt example of that quote.

He's working for greater things than vidya now. Sorry but Romero is sucking kickstarter cocks right now while Carmack has an actual successful job.

If anything it became more true.
Good thing we have a fuckton of those but seemingly no good designers are left in the industry.

He's still right even if you think his own work is shit.

/thread.

>I hear you were a gas station attendant for a while to make ends meet.

No, he collects "Americana", specifically old gas station stuff. You'll notice in that pic of him in the red shirt, all the pumping equipment is from the 50s.

This is complete and total bullshit: The post.

Say what you want about programming, but John Carmack was a visionary who's work on DOOM is still repeated within the programming world today. He's created game engines from the ground up that revolutionized programming within the video gaming field.

Unfortunately, he's an anomaly within the programming world.

More like Cred Forums is filled with I.T. basement dwellers and underpaid sysadmins. Those are the ones that are actually working. The rest are NEETs who got A's in math, but put no effort into getting a job or going to college.

Not right since you'll need a good engine to make a good game. Just look what happened to Daikatana. Creativity is extremely important but so is the coding behind the game.

Like failed VR and launching junk rockets with his cunt randroid wife? Don't put Carmack on a pedestal, he never actually did anything. Meanwhile Romero gets money pledged to him by people who actually know how much he contributed to vidya.

>Romero
>Ideas Guy
There's this meme again.

>working for greater things than vidya now

You mean working on a platform that's in dire need of designers more than the VR world has ever been in need of them?

Rockstar and CDPR. To a less cohesive extent, Naughty Dog. The real creativity now lies within the indie community since such concepts have been anathematized in the corporate industry.

>Don't put Carmack on a pedestal, he never actually did anything.

>Not right since you'll need a good engine to make a good game.

What about Dwarf Fortress?

Too bad none of his engines matter today.

You can't shit on his work all you want but fact is Romero is the one begging for money on kickstarter and his project didn't even had all that money to begin with.

>revolutionized programming
Name one concept he pioneered that isn't megatextures and actually mattered half a damn.

Iwata has even said as much himself. When he was young he thought that his games would be better than Miyamoto's because his were coded better. Then he realised that simply wasn't the case.

People still use BSP trees though.

His kickstarter relied on everyone thinking the new DOOM was shit, but it turned out alright.

Not amazing, but alright.

Do you think that game was coded by someone who knew shit about how to code?

It's already been mentioned a few times, but binary space partitioning. Before he applied that to his engine in DOOM, it was completely absent from the video gaming world.

And you go back to the previous point again. You need both a good programmer and a good designer. One creates the engine, the other ones makes the game fun. You'll run into issues if you lack any of those.

>Begging for money
Crowd-funding is based on how much people desire a project done. Romero doesn't need a dime but if people want a good game made and they pledge their money toward that. I don't think you mongoloid Cred Forumsirgins understand some basic concepts. Crowdfunding isn't "begging" it's gauging interest and sale potential for projects without the mess of real investors.

youtube.com/watch?v=IinYnj5CsPE

>He made bad engines

Bad engine that was licensed to everyone and their mother for YEARS and still is being used nearly 20 years later in a multi-million dollar FPS series? (Hint: Read the back of a Call of Duty box sometime)

Granted, post-Quake 3 engine engines were a mixed bag, but you can't say Carmack isn't gifted.

>Romero doesn't need a dime
Keep dreaming.

Except that that being wrong is literally why daikatana was a giant pile of shit.

Keep meming, bruh. Romero is a literal fucking millionaire.

There's a reason why he cancelled the kickstarter project and started working on a demo first. Sorry but you're not fooling anyone, Romero NEEDS the money and the trust of the consumer, otherwise his game is dead in the water.

Daikatana didn't have any particularly good design, it really was typical ideaguy "hyperambitious with no finesse and barely articulated, never mind implemented" crap.

And you know that even a millionaire will run into financial problems if he decides to make an expensive game? Just because someone is a millionaire doesn't mean he can start an expensive project like a videogame as if it was nothing.

Pretty sure Daikatana was unpopular because of design and aesthetics.

Hey guys what's goin on on this threa-

DOES ANYONE WANT TO PROGRAM MY IDEAS? I SUK YO DIK!!

Ergo the point of crowdfunding.

>aesthetics

That's a big one. The art style of the game sucked. The design was also very flawed. Romero was trying to do something way too big.

You need both.

The re-usable rocket? Shits neat but useless.

The coding was also shit and the game almost never worked the way it was intended. The main problem with the game is that you need more than a designer and a programmer behind the project, you also need someone who's smart enough to know the limits that the technology, budget and time will put on the game. Romero wasn't exactly the smartest guy around back then and who knows if he has learned his lesson.

fuck it is that time of year again

>Romero wasn't exactly the smartest guy around back then and who knows if he has learned his lesson.

youtube.com/watch?v=XJzbE8wz1Wo

Which means he needs the money of other people even before the project is near completion or otherwise his project is fucked.

>disliked because of it's aesthetics
Come on user.

But what part of it's design made it shit, exactly?

I think only time will tell if he will actually deliver this time or not. One of the biggest problems that he may run into is just how different game development is nowadays.

Why don't you try playing the game before arguing about it?

Pretty much alright game, I played it few months back with that new unofficial patch that fixes bugs and AI pathing.
Not amazing but certainly not bad either.
I think the main problem is that they were forced to release it in buggy state (due to being long in development and publisher getting upset) despite it not being done yet and because it had waaaaay too overhyped marketing campaign.

Imagine if HL3 came out today, no matter how good it is, people would shit on it because there's no way in hell it would ever live up to people's expectations at this point.

Daikatana was basically that but on a smaller scale.

You can have an amazing idea for a game but it doesn't matter if you can't make it come to life

lacks both.

Hahahaha fuck it's true...

I mean it's decent money but all I do is spend my money on vidya, drugs, and hookers and shitpost all day because my job is a fucking sham.

I think the main problem was the AI partners. Titles like Thief 2 were considered games with good AI back in those days but they were still pretty limited. There was no way in which the AI was going to work with 2 partners following and fighting along the player for most of the game without running into some issues.

AI partners are always the bane of a games existence, especially if they need to survive.

The unofficial patch that happened last year because Romero gave them the source code added option to play without AI partners and also improved their paththing if you play with them.
The patch still is being actively developed too.

As much shit as people give John Romero, he was a total fucking bro. He looked out for his friends, gave them huge opportunities, and believes in building a community.

That sounds good. Maybe people will be finally able to appreciate the game on it's own terms without having to babysit those two idiots every five seconds.

I don't really give him shit other than dropping the ball with Daikatana hype and some questionable design decisions that were too ambitious for its time (and still are to this day really, such as AI companions since even modern games can't get AI companions right without making them immortal).

My only real problem with the game outside of the companion AI was just the wasp enemies in first couple levels, annoying piece of shit (and I'm sure they were designed like this on purpose) that really should've had a bit bigger hitbox. Serious Sam learned from this and made all of its smaller annoying enemies have hitboxes that are actually almost twice their actual model size.

With all that said, I recommend you guys to grab the unofficial 1.3 patch and give Daikatana a try and go into it with a neutral stance.

Why are most of the indie games I see boring then?

Majority look like they're either trying to be deep or jack off about the NES and SNES eras.

My retro collection is already good at the moment.

The overall theme of the game just looks really unappetizing and has very little to do with the actual gameplay.