So tell me

>Jack up the price on the newer Teslas just like Apple does?
Can you show any evidence of this ever happening.
Not some anecdotal shit - real proof?

>The average life of a Lithium Ion battery is 2-3 years.
For stuff like cell phones this is true as smartphone batteries are some of the most abused lithium batteries we have as they are often charged right to full capacity and are drained pretty heavily to almost 0% of capacity not to mention they run pretty much 24/7

If you want lithium batteries to last, charging to 80-90% of there capacity and not draining to 0% does alot for longevity, also if your Tesla or any car maker with electric/hybrid cars batteries just don't go trough simple discharge and recharge cycles they add some intelligence to charging that helps

In the beginning when Hybrid/Electric vehicles were first introduced there were questions about how long the battery would last. Some felt that they would need to be replaced sooner rather than later. As it turns out there are many examples of Uber/Taxi Vehicles that are going on 500-750k Miles are still using the same battery. Capacity wise it has only suffered a 10-15% decline. It is now being touted that a Chevy Bolt requires no maintenance for the first 150k miles. It is predicted that many Teslas will easily reach 1 million miles before requiring a new battery or any extensive maintenance. There are scores of 10-year-old Toyota Prius vehicles still on the road approaching well over 500k miles.

I believe that in the next 5-10 years at most, electric vehicles will have a minimum of 1000 miles of range per charge and a lifespan of at least 1 million miles without any major maintenance requirements (tires and brakes). At least 2 of the Big 3 Auto manufacturers will not exist. It will also be likely that the remaining car manufacturers will not be selling many vehicles but will have transitioned to providing car services.

This

>The average life of a Lithium Ion battery is 2-3 years.
The big ones are built to last more like ten years, they're not phone/laptop batteries with poor thermal management

Interesting

The chemical makeup of the batteries in your laptops and phones are not the same as the ones used in cars and other automotive and/or industrial applications.

This, the main thing that's keeping Tesla alive (and will probably keep them alive for the future) is their battery tech

Who cares? These cars are the fastest.
As always, being fast comes with a hefty pricetag.

Since you are clearly taking a very US-centric view, I'll say that US people replace their cars often regardless of them having problems or not, and they often don't "own" cars but take them in lease just like their phones, so I don't think your vision makes much sense from the business standpoint.

Tesla battery charge cycle actually keeps the battery to 90+% condition with 150K miles/10 year usage.

That's more of a testament to Panasonic's impressive cells than anything else

>last up to 10-15 years
buddy wake up they don't want you to keep your car for that long they want you to buy a new one every couple of years similar to smartphones.
it's just not there yet

1. Those are not chinks Appel batteries, those are quality Panasonic, Sanyo, Samsung or whatever good manufacturer. (and even in laptops those batteries last for 4-5 years until they are completely useless)
2. EV is pretty easy on batteries. While coasting on high-way, electric motor consumes quite 'nothing' (lets pretend it is 20 kW-h/100 km @ 100 kph, so motor consumes 20 kW-h per hour, so it consumes 20 kW from battery) and lower the power consumption - longer the battery life. Even in case of base Tesla it would be 0.33C discharge, and that is approximately 830 mA/cell.
In older laptops average current draw is like 0.5C (that would give 2 hours of operation), 1.5 times larger than in Tesla, and that is slightly worse from battery
3. You don't discharge your car to zero all the time, and number of cycles will be less, than in android phone...

And yes, chemistry is different. Typical Li-ion or Li-po in laptop is most likely cobalt-based (ICR), and in EV it is more likely an manganese nickel or manganese oxide, because those have bigger discharge headroom.

Tesla and Panasonic are developing the batteries together.

That's is impressive. Where can I buy those Panasonic cells?

use the correct graph lad. Whenever a Y-axis doesn't go to zero it always annoys me, even if the data is sound (as is the case with that pic)

Now we can't tell where exactly the numbers lie.

Is is still more accurate if you want the actual number. However yours is more of a general overall picture.

They used the Panasonic NCR18650B for those Teslas. The new Teslas will be using newer 2170 batteries.

GO AWAY DARRELL HUFF

>The chemical makeup of the batteries in your laptops and phones are not the same as the ones used in cars
Except they fucking are. The Tesla car batteries are literally hundreds of normal lithium cells you'd find in a laptop battery or UPS wired together.

no, and that statement just shows me how little you actually know. You got 'Kruger'd, bro. Sad.

Just looked it up, didn't know they switched to a different cell last year. They used to use normal but high quality 18650's.

again, good that you did some research, but there is nothing that stipulates what a "normal" 18650 cell is. 18650 is ONLY the size. The simple packaging dimensions of the unit.

Similarly, there is nothing unique about a 2170. It is only a different size. Sure, that size allows for certain improvements in density and cooling, but those are not set in stone by whatever mfg makes them. Anyone else can crank out 2170-*sized* batteries with totally different internals.

Because its cheaper than buying as $30000 Mercedes engine when it decides its going to explode for the 5th time in 10 years

god bless my simca 2.2l. Sill strong after x78000 miles. The french can poop out some good shit every once in a while

Battery longevity has much more to do with charge management and thermal management than cell quality. A phone/laptop battery only lasts 2-3 years because battery life is important to consumers, not battery longevity. It's not hard to design a lithium-ion battery pack that will last 10 years.

thus why I'm excited for the 55(?) kwh leaf that's coming out soon. First one with thermal management; all previous leafs are air cooled

should be a great EV

Not really though, I mean they are using NCA battery's for their existing cars, but tesla and Panasonic have their own specific ratio and process they use.Lithium ion(LCO) are more typically used for cell phones and laptops.

The x axis showing km and labeled mileage really grinds my gears

I thought you were supposed to drain Li-Ion batteries to 0% every now and then?

Does anyone else hear just seem to destroy their Lithium batteries? Nothing ever lasts for me. Maybe because I use them so much.

They do.

no, that's quite bad for them in fact. Thus why most EV batteries never ever go below 8% or whatever. It's why you hear things like "oh, it has a 75kwh pack, but 68 are usable". Same with going to 100%.

kilometerage?

>What if millions of people drive Teslas and all their batteries go bad all at once?

What if everybody on earth has an aneurysm at the exact same time?

You might be right for the long term, but unless we have some kind of major breakthrough in battery technology or massively improve our available supplies of rare earth, we won't be looking at 2 of the big 3 failing in the next decade. At least not related to electric cars totally forcing them out.

why is battery tech still such shit?
is hyrdrogen for energy storage still a meme?

ITT:People who are not chemical engineers try to guess the lifespan of a lithium ion battery based solely on their experience with a phone.

Are you mentally retarded or just a fucking idiot?

Yes, there hasn't been a breakthrough in R&D so it is still not efficient enough.

I think using hydrogen is a waste of energy. Most of the supply is produced by reforming methane and steam because that is the only way to produce it efficiently. Might as well run your vehicles on methane then.
Pic related

hydrogen is a grade-A meme.
>let's use a hard-to-store EXPLOSIVE as our car's fuel source. Oh yeah, and it takes 8x the energy to generate hydrogen for cars as it contains in the first place.

The only reason retards think hydrogen is viable is because when they were twelve they read some dumb article about it in popular science and they've never given it any attention in their brain since then. That and California is a shithole

They use the same batteries they put in your laptops and your vapes, but in a fancy package.
Tesla would love to use a better battery chemistry, and they've dumped tons of money into figuring out which one is the best to move to.
But still no dice.

the old 10 year old teslas that have samsungs outdated battery formula still have 85+ percent of their capacity still. When Tesla becomes a car company for the average joe, their batteries should be a quantum leap above their older batteries. So that wont be a problem.

The big 3 and anyone else who's somebody are making electric vehicles, though. Tesla is just a harbinger, at best.

have to use too much energy to make hydrogen viable

bad charging habbits dramatically reduce their life desu such as leaving them charging too long or letting them completely drain before charging. I read somewhere the optimal time to charge to keep their life up is around 30%

>average life of lithium Ion battery

>average

You understand that these batteries aren't your run of the mill type lithium ion batteries right?

Teslas are retarded, ICE is way better. Companies should focus on building better internal cumbustion engines

A quantum leap is a really small leap, user

So we can continue being slaves to the petro cartels that is bankrolling oppressive regimes, banana republics and terrorism? I cant wait to see a few ZOG controlled middle eastern states collapse when oil reaches 20 dollars a barrel as a result of electrification.

...

So lets say 200 miles per charge, 6000 cycles its 1.2 million miles before it dies.

There are other factors but chemistry itself is not limiting one.

Yeah I charge them a lot because I use my devices heavily.

Only future proof way of producing it would be a "green" power source (thorium) and electrolysis. Dont have a pic but our jobs are similar ;)

Batteries have a number of things that can / do go wrong with them. A lot of how long they live is dependent on their environment. Tesla knows this. If the batteries get too hot, they cool them down. If they get to cool, they warm them up. The cars are designed to do that. Batteries CAN last an extremely long time. Pic related has an " average " life expectancy of 40+ years. Obviously different tech. But, Tesla gets it. I wouldn't be surprised if even their 1st gen Model S cars get 15+ years out of the original batteries.

>2-3 years
Wrong. With intelligent charging methods (which you know Tesla have mastered) they last much, much longer than 2-3 years. There's a good reason that electric car owners aren't crying from the rooftops after 2-3 years about their dead batteries.....It's cos they ain't dead.

Can confirm this is very accurate.
>.t eee

>battery life not important to consumers
Yeah you guys need to remember just how abused consumer tech is, laptops left on charge 24/7 yet nobody thinks about replacing with a desktop. Phones charged at any state, usually in batches and then all fucking night.
I'm just impressed sony is the only manufacturer that puts in that intelligent charging into their phones to avoid this kind of stress.

Oh yeah people buy a new phone or laptop every 2 years, a car is a much bigger investment so longevity is more important. Having said that, in the UK the average person cycles through cars every 2.5years which is incredible. Part of it is the way insurance and the law works, you're rewarded for having the newest car and punished the longer you keep it. Basically the gubberment needs to stop fucking itself over since it's on a a mad dash to hell right now.

Mazda is doing god's work on ICE. Also infiniti/nissan made a big step with variable compression engines. We're not going to see pure EV take over for a good few years because battery tech is holding us back so I say may as well see how far we can push ICE to carry us until then.

>So how do we expect to have electric vehicles last up to 10-15 year
It's simple, use a new technology.
Hundreds of labs around the world are actively working on something better than lithium ion batteries, hopefully we will see something groundbreaking really soon.

>implying you can't answer a "how?" question.
Retard

If I recall nasa keeps them at about half charge and only does very small charge/discharge cycles there.
Not practical for cars but since most car trips don't require you to empty a good portion of the tank you should have a similar situation.

There are many kinds of lithium ion. The batteries in your electronics use lithium cobalt, which has better density but shitty lifetime. Cars and motorcycles usually use lithium iron batteries, which last much longer.

Tesla as of yet hasn't done a singular thing other than take off the shelf Panasonic 18650 cells and put them into an oil bath. You can tear apart the 1000lb+ battery pack under a Tesla and take out the exact same Panasonic battery that you yourself can order from Amazon.
If they've actually done any real work in developing batteries themselves then they haven't said a single word about it, or even hinted at it. Maybe they have some solid state cells in the works for their new semi and roadster, but thats still up in the air.

Panasonic cells are high quality, but the only real difference between them and cheap Chinese cells is quality control, not chemistry. Chinese vendors sill sell you partly faulty cells that only charge and discharge 1000mah instead of their rated 3000mah. Chinks essential take the garbage rejected cells from other manufacturers, rewrap them, and sell them under their own brand instead of actually recycling them.
The chemistry in them is virtually identical.

The entire world should be thanking Mazda for doing what they do.
Its unreal that they make such beautiful econoboxes. Increasing thermal efficiency in gasoline and diesel engines, making beautiful interiors where Americans simply aren't even trying, tuning suspensions to actually make driving fun, consistently making some of the safest vehicles on the road in crash test scores.
I'm greatly looking forward to Skyactiv X and the future generation.

Heres to hoping for a 250hp 310hp, 50mpg, 5 star crash rated, $22,000 fun daily driver.
They already have all that, just shy of 40mpg.

No, that's for NiMH batteries (I think? Could be NiCd?) that have their memory effect. Li-Ion batteries do not have that effect and if anything it's bad to drain them to 0%.

I agree with that, but it really shouldn't be that difficult to make ICEs run on pine oil or anything that should be trivial to manufacture in enormous quantities.

Reminder that "diesel" engines were originally created to run on peanut oil and other oil fuels.
We don't specifically need refined gasoline, but this is a bit of a misdirection in itself. We're only beholden to Saudi oil for gasoline because of geopolitics.
America could be fully energy independent relatively easily, and we don't have to give up internal combustion engines to do it.

>Reminder that "diesel" engines were originally created to run on peanut oil and other oil fuels.
There's a reason modern diesels are a lot smaller and more efficient, and it is in no small part due to tight fuel tolerances. That being said, I don't doubt that non-petroleum fuel oils could be refined to similar tolerances.

You still can utilize these oils as fuel in modern diesel engines. People take straight deep fryer oil, treat it with a couple chemicals, filter it, then put it right in their tank,
Your modern 2.0L turbo diesel can run on refined donut grease and run as well as gas station fuel.

I'd finally feel sweet release.

How long do they keep doing that for, and on what models? I don't doubt that you can run those old 80s Diesel Mercedes models on it, but I'd imagine it'd leave soot deposits in the cylinders that need to be cleaned out regularly. On more modern engines, I'd also expect it to have effects on stuff like the fuel pump that expect the fuel to have specific lubricating properties. Especially so on common-rail pumps.

>Business model

Tesla doesn't make a drop of profit, and it consumes tremendous amounts of public subsidies and grants. There is, at present, no business model. The idea is to gain critical mass, allowing them to either fund a revolution in battery technology (which is by no means physically impossible, but probably still 20 years from being mature), or to become 'too big to fail' thus guaranteeing that public funds become a reliable crutch.

In part, of course, the lifecycle cost (also think disposal, these cars probably can't be safely scrapped in traditional ways) is factored into purchase price, but it's hard to assess at this point how well that matches with reality.

The last elephant in the room is battery degradation - at what point do cells become too bad to use, and is there a way to selectively wear down cells to minimise maintenance costs. For example, it may be better to reduce a set of cells to near zero functionality, than to evenly wear all cells in the car, the former allows them to be batch replaced (say at regular services), whereas the latter introduces a critical lifetime.

It works in brand new engines, its not something that specific to older engines.
Most gas station diesel these days has bio diesel blended into it. Certain engines have issues only when the blend gets too high, but beyond that there isn't any mechanical limitation.

n.b. I should add that by 'fund' I don't mean 'affect'. I very much doubt they're going to start researching battery architectures and chemistry (why would they, the expertise and labs exist elsewhere), but the demand for batteries for vehicles will push this technology.

youtube.com/watch?v=YyFXUYN_1QU

>Certain engines have issues only when the blend gets too high
But that clearly means that they can't run on pure biodiesel, meaning that the fuel tolerances very much matter.

The deposit on his intake vales isn't caused from his use of recycled oil.

It has to to with the fuel injectors, not the rest of the engine itself.

>It has to to with the fuel injectors, not the rest of the engine itself.
Isn't that quite enough? The injector improvements are among the most important factors to the improvements in modern diesels.

Friendly reminder that tesla interiors look like absolute shit

Are you the kind of faggot who chooses his cars based on how well the interior matches his handbag?

>not the rest of the engine itself.
Also, how would you even know that, if it hasn't gotten long-term testing?

It has been tested long term, people have been using recycled oil biodiesel for decades.
The only difference between an engine thats good to run B100, and one that should be kept to B10 or B5, is the style of injectors is uses.

we /o/ now

>3 is a 30% of a 15
Cred Forums in a nutshell

>for decades
Of course, but again, on what engines? The diesel engines in modern passenger cars are very different from the diesles of decades ago.
>The only difference [...]is the style of injectors is uses.
But those injectors imply a lot of other changes. Common-rail injectors require much more advanced fuel pumps to maintain the high pressure they need. There's also big differences in the particle filters they require on the exhaust to meet modern pollution legislation.