Does Russia have the potential to become truly democratic and become friends with the west?

>truly democratic
>become friends with the west?
pick one

pls no

>and become friends with the west
I am still not sure that it is not the West who doesn't want to be friends with Russia and always triggers us to do some stupid shit.

But as guys before said, right now it's impossible. Just as impossible it is for Russia to become a country with high living standarts.

if we don't want to die on this rock then i think all our nations had better try

>triggers us
You do some stupid shit like wars with Georgia and Ukraine while blaming colour revolutions on the West. That's pretty confrontational.

Putin is overestimating the power of intelligence agencies because of his background in KGB.

The west is dying finally, so I don't know about friendship. We can visit your grave, if you want.

The problem isn't with us, it's the fact that European countries will never get over their ancient blood feuds with you.

>Russia
>Ancient blood feud

?????????

Literally no one would give a shit if the state at least aknowledged the bad stuff they've done in the past and didn't continue to do fun things like violating air space and saying "We're going to invade you if you do this."

Georgia started war against South Ossetia and killed Russian peacekeepers in this area. It was actually good decision to respond.

Ukraine... Well, I'm not sure that their civil war would happen if we wouldn't annex Crimea. But they shouldn't ban Russian language right after Maidan happened, they could know that this will trigger their Russian-speaking regions for protests.

And in both cases we saw American interference. Interference right near our borders. For some reason you don't blame USA for this and their military operations in Yugoslavia, Iraq or Libya which were even less justified.

>west is dying

>wars with Georgia
>confrontational
The sooner you will be overrun with durkas, the better. I fucking hate you, you brainwashed lying shitheads.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You can't imagine that these countries could've had agency of their own. It must've been an American conspiracy to harm Russia. Nvm that Obama tried to reset relations with you before Putin got really paranoid.

Georgian army was literally armed by the US and trained by american advisors. Dindunuffing won't help you here.

And you can't even imagine that Ukraine has 20 million of pro-Russian population who doesn't want any integration with EU. Or what people in South Ossetia or Abkhazia actually has their own opinion and don't want to live in one country with Georgia. There should always be some KGB conspiracy and evil Russians who want to rebuild their empire.

Just look in the mirror and finally see the full picture of our relationships.

>potential
no. Russia is an impotent

I mean, come on. The 45 years of hostility between the US and Moscow during the 20th century...dust in the wind against a millenia of hostility between Russia and Balts, Poles, Finns, Germans, Tatars, and everything else.

No

Ukraine is an artificial state that exists strictly to put a neutral buffer zone between Russia and Europe.

I'm not denying that America made several mistakes like insisting on privatisation of state assets in exchange for financial help in the 90s and giving Russia a cold shoulder in general.

It's easy to destroy the state like in Iraq, but when you do that it's exactly then when greatest atrocities happen. State authority should be mantained and if you can't handle that, don't do unnecessary interventions.

Bombing Yugoslavia was right. Milosevic shouldn't be allowed to perpetrate another genocide.

It's actually a hard question who is more to blame for fucking up Russia-West relation.

>Bombing Yugoslavia was right. Milosevic shouldn't be allowed to perpetrate another genocide

See earlier point about ancient European blood feuds that Americans will probably never "get".

It's really no more than the simple fact that nations tend to be led by old people who in this case are still fighting the battles of the Cold War.

This is not a blood feud. Slovaks have historically good relations with Serbs. My concern about preventing genocides is purely humanitarian.

No, it is not. The answer is "West".

>Bombing Yugoslavia was right. Milosevic shouldn't be allowed to perpetrate another genocide.
And bombing Georgia was right too. Saakashvili shouldn't be allowed to perpetrate genocide of Ossies and Abkhazians. Expecially considering the fact that Northern part of Ossies is under our control, so they are basically our people.

And because of all these wars happened in Middle East Europe now has refugee crysis. I hope you are enjoying it right now.

>And you can't even imagine that Ukraine has 20 million of pro-Russian population who doesn't want any integration with EU

That's the Ukraine's business, not yours.
It's clear as day that Crimea was a complete power grab and Putin doesn't honestly give a shit about anything else besides furthering his domain.

Annexing territory is dark age shit and shouldn't be going on anymore in this day and age.

And before you try to bring up "muh middle east interference" We shouldn't have been fucking around in there either just because of some ragheads but at least we didn't straight up steal land from another country.

>we didn't straight up steal land from another country
You steal whole fucking countries.

AHAHAHAAAAA

Example?

Iraqis are not literally owned by America you know.

The U.S. is actually having trouble coordinating with them against ISIS. They're letting in all these sectarian Shiite militias from Iran.

>t.vatnik
if p*tin built real economy in Russia during expensive oil period, we would me in much better position now

Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan, Germany, Phillipines etc etc

>That's the Ukraine's business, not yours.
Indeed it is. I hope they enjoy the Civil War in their eastern part right now as well. It's what happening when you try to shut up some part of your population and still call it "european" and "democratic".

It literally is. The fact that your government is incompetent at actually governing your foreign posessions doesn't matter. Bombing civilians is always easier than controlling them.

What are you talking about?
If we owned Iraq or Afghanistan they wouldn't still be running around with Islamic terrorists and the government basically having the slogan of "death to America"

>owning Japan
>owning The Philipines
Sir you are thinking of historic allies I know you don't know what that is considering the world hates Russia right now and no one wants to be associated with you but there is a difference

>Germany
kek

>That's the Ukraine's business
That's right, and it's not your fucking business to push country to do revolution, using nazis, your media, money and political pressure just to bring to power antirussian goverment.

> become friends with the west?
You want us to be friends, but you ban us at Olympic games? No America. Today I say fuck you. Fuck you USA.

The West is also responsible for the corruption in this country, coincidence?. I don't think so.

no, historically russia has always had highly centralized power, and even if they try and decentralize it, like through the revolution and "democratization" after the soviet union fell, it will go back to how it was before because russia just doesn't have the history western europe has of nobility and bourgeois struggling with monarchs for rights and limitations on rule.

What is wrong in the wars for the old country borders?

>Bombing Yugoslavia was right. Milosevic shouldn't be allowed to perpetrate another genocide.

>kill 15 uck terrorists
>get bombed to oblivion for killing terrorist
srsly

>Iraqis are not literally owned by America you know.
Because you withdrawed your troops from their country. How many years were they presented here though?

I also like your double standards. Just if controlling some countries with puppet governments which exists only because of American military support isn't the same dark age as actual annexations.

>historic allies
"Occupied state" is a peculiar understanding of the word "ally", but the only one that America is familiar with, apparently.
>world hates Russia right now
America and its little puppies =/= the world, my dear burger, no matter how much would you want that to be true.

>Just if
just as if *

You mean like you do with your anti-american propaganda machine?

They did in the Middle Ages, then Ivan the Terrible used the oprichniki to bring the nobles to submit to central authority.

interesting thread, but i understand only 70% of information.

When old generation die, probably be better.

So if NATO/US quit building missile bases around Russia, would Russia quit invading and expanding?

It's not like you guys need more clay.

As I said,

putin used bush tbqh. obama isn't as stupid and easily swayed. read about putin and bush's first visit. it was a great mind game by putin.

>occupied state
Yes, of course I forgot. Look how our military marches towards their capital as soon as they do anything that isn't completely subservient to us.

>America and its little puppies =/= the world, my dear burger, no matter how much would you want that to be true.
Wow they were not kidding about how fucking brainwashed you are.
Yes it must be all in my mind if the entire civilized world despises you and the only ones who don't know about your despicable acts are third world countries being funded directly by you.

Good detective skills Ivan.

>read about putin and bush's first visit. it was a great mind game by putin.
how so

No need for propoganda.
Look, i don't hate USA, you are a great country, but i do hate the way of your geopolitical acting.

I agree, both of our older generations don't know how to live in a post-soviet, post-cold war world.

>it a "westerner is accusing others of being brainwashed" episode
You military is already in their capitals. When was the last time any of your puppets did something not subservient?
Also
>america and vassals
>civilized world
Thanks for a kek, Tyrone

>Look how our military marches towards their capital as soon as they do anything that isn't completely subservient to us.
Again, they literally do. Baghdad, Tripoli, Belgrade, attempt to do the same in Syria. Military support of Georgia and Ukraine. And etc.

long story short he rose to power around the same time bush did he decided he wanted to make an ally of him for the next 8 years. putin has never been religious in the slightest growing up in the atheist USSR but his intelligence told him bush was a deeply religious man so for their first official meeting putin decided to wear a cross on his neck (something he's never done in his life) and during that visit putin shared a story about how the cross is his mother's or grandmother's or whatever and he lost it in a fire but later rediscovered it in some miraculous fashion I can't remember and how this experience made him think that maybe there truly is a higher power etc.

bush came back to the US praising putin to his staff saying how he "has a good soul". putin used bush in pretty much anything middle east related for his entire precidency.

o:

>putin has never been religious in the slightest growing up
then why does he hate faggots

> When was the last time any of your puppets did something not subservient?
How about the fact there are talks about getting rid of the Peacekeeping force we have stationed in South Korea to keep the north from trying anything because they don't like it?

>I don't have an argument so I'm just going to say the west is the worst because Putin told me
kek

>imply that I'm a nigger
Man I don't know why nobody takes you Russians seriously sometimes. Shit like that really helps your arguments.

hating faggots isn't exclusive to religious folk. that's just an american thing.

>no argument, so I'll jut pull something out of my ass
>no argument, so I'll just mention Putin
>no argument, so I'll just stick a bunch of words together, hopefully it will confuse them
Another american crumbles when faced with an actual discussion. What a surprise.

No never. Russia will become like it's idol, North Korea.

>ignore an actual stated fact and say he doesn't have an argument
>Don't have an argument so pretend like pointing out that I don't have an argument is sufficient
>stick a bunch of words together and ignore what he is saying because again, I don't have an argument

That's enough Russian for today.

>"no u" the post
Americans, never change

>the world hates Russia right now
we share border with russia and have deeply rooted hatred for russians thanks to our common history and even with all that the public is divided 50/50 if we had to choose a side between the US and russia. we hate russians probably more or as much as any other country on earth and still we consider it on equal footing with the US. most other countries don't even have a reason to hate russians like we do.

you can say "the world hates russia right now" because the world is displeased with their recent actions in ukraine but the world hates the US just as much. you're just blind to it because you only see american news.

There are two types of countries today the developed ones who have all allied with usa and the shitty ones who blame americans for their shortcomings.

Guess who we are.

I'm sure the whole world hates Russia.
youtu.be/QEJ-RPOgS1E

to some extent sure but more than they hate the US?

Our army loves USA.

Eh? Putin was known to carry a cross with him when he was a KGB agent even.

nice to see they were born true friends, as Castor and Pollux

Which is the right thing to do. Ally with the good guys. And with the most powerful force.
youtu.be/LspyphhrS64

...

t. american jew media

yeah well too bad for them the army doesn't actually make any decisions in finland

>unironically cottonjacketing on Cred Forums

But good news the US Army does make the decisions for it's friends.
youtu.be/AXISzLqP12U

Blue=US allies
Green=Russian allies

Proving my point nicely :^)

I'm all for having compatible gear and tactics with NATO countries but that doesn't mean they have any political power over us

Haha. :D Just right.

Let the American Eagle fly free
youtu.be/Vxte2lGH1hk

I don't believe in Russian people and Russia at all. My opinion that Russia change when "USSR" generation will be in graves. Now I think only about emigration in Canada or USA. I reject all mentality and all "Orthodox tradition". Only thing I love is language

Japan's prime minister Abe wants to mediate between US and Russia, and then he want to make coalition against China.
Hey Russia-senpai, why don't you be friend of us and confront China's invasion?

...

Pffft, same thing in China. Chinese culture is for people over 50.

Of course, after 11\5\2017.

If you really get into the history of Russia you can honestly summarize it by 'desire to reform followed by JUST, then authoritarianism'

happened like 6 or 7 times

russia will always be the way it is

The one time when they had democracy (1992-99) they blew it and needed a new god emperor to save them.

Sadly, no.

Unlike western countries, Russia's "elite" doesn't come from a partnership of those that got wealthy in the private sector and those that got wealthy in politics. Russia's elite comes from completely from Russia's security apparatus (KGB, FSB, military). There simply aren't enough Russian elites to run the country in a seemingly democratic way.

Russia is too large, with such poor infrastructure. It needs to be held together by covert and overt force. The only way Russia could become democratic is if the Federation balkanized.

They won't be able to preserve it forever when everyone with an adult memory of Soviet times is gone and because of globalization although that's more likely to simply result in mass emigration out of Russia until there's nothing and nobody left that can run the country...and then the Balkanization you speak of is inevitable.

Russia very nearly did Balkanize in the 90s, but Western countries were cautious to make sure it didn't end up like Yugoslavia.

That's sadly true. Only one way to live like a human - run beyond this xenophobic hell

no

You seem to know Russia well.

Why? Easy--Russia had nukes and Yugoslavia didn't. We couldn't let another 1918-22 happen again because terrorists getting ahold of nukes wouldn't be very nice.

wat
Do you not understand geopolitics? It's all game theory, and in this case there is a massive advantage in the defection strategy.

And to think, Putin is actually offended that Westerners think Russians are cavemen and not fit to live among civilized humans.

>become truly democratic
>become friends with the west

These things exclude each other. The world would have already perished in a nuclear war if Russia was truly democratic.

Nah, most people aren't suicidal. Even in the late Soviet era, there were complains from various military and CPSU figures that too many people believed that peace with the West at any cost was a good thing and there wasn't enough political education going around to instill the ideas of class struggle and proletarian internationalism in the masses.

The 1991 coup probably failed because political indoctrination in the Red Army had lapsed to the point where soldiers weren't willing to fire on protesters to save the failing USSR.

Too cute for me

Nope, NK is too democratic and free.
Our actual idol is the society described in the "1984" novel, that would be the pinnacle of our social development.

You have to understand that average Ivan didn't give a shit about Marxism-Leninism, that was only the party high-ups.

>Western countries were cautious to make sure it didn't end up like Yugoslavia.

Please elaborate. How did they intervene?

>politics
>friends
v golosinoo

Well, see, we actually went out of our way to encourage separatism in Yugoslavia to the point of paying off different factions. We didn't do that in Russia because the nuclear arsenal couldn't be safeguarded if the country dissolved politically and a shooting war happened.

>The 1991 coup probably failed because political indoctrination in the Red Army had lapsed to the point where soldiers weren't willing to fire on protesters to save the failing USSR.

USSR was disbanded by its ruling elite, by members of the executive committee of CPSU, not by these democratic protesters.

>soldiers weren't willing to fire on protesters
>weren't willing

Nobody gave them an order to disperse the protesters by force. I don't know how is that in the USA, but here soldiers are supposed to execute the orders of the superior command disregarding their moral aspect. It is not an issue of willing.

>I don't know how is that in the USA

You're taught to execute all lawful orders. So if your CO tells you to bayonet babies, you can say "Fuck this shit".

Which is how any civilized country works. :^)

>So if your CO tells you to bayonet babies, you can say "Fuck this shit".

In our army the orders are not allowed to be questioned, doubted or discussed. If you refuse to execute an order of your command you could be easily put on a military tribunal for treason, and it wouldn't end well.

same could be said of every country on earth desu

And that's why you cannot into civilized country. (^:

How can they balkanize when Ethnic Russians are majority in both East and West? Native Siberians are irrelevant like Native Americans.

Other countries of the world except for Ukraine and Belarus didn't have 70 years of the soviet rule.

old people are dumb regardless of what political system they grew up in

No. Because it's always gonna be easier to get out of Russia than to change it.

Things would really have to go to shit in the big cities (and I mean famine levels of shit) for any political change taking place and that's only if the public was fed up with the IT'S A WESTERN CONSPIRACY memes.

They were irrelevant until >1991 but now Moscow will be 50% churka/Islamic in 40 years.

Bit rich coming from USA. Spics are taking over your country.

Old people in Canada don't go to the demonstrations with red flags and Stalin's portraits.

Wait, aren't you slowly being taken over by chinks?

No but there's plenty of old idiots like Hillary Clinton who are living in the 1980s and want to start a nuclear war with you.

>Native Siberians are irrelevant

In some regions of Siberia there are none of them left at all.

GW Bush has both the record highest (right after 9/11) and lowest (at the end of his presidency) approval ratings in modern US History. Really makes you think.

It will happen again if Trump becomes President

Soon...

>want to start a nuclear war with you

I have an impression that the majority of you wants the same.

The no. of nuclear bombs you own can destroy us hundreds of times, you know that right? Literally matyrdom weapon, worldwide suicide.

We don't.

Meanwhile there's assorted 70 year olds butthurt that Obama removed the arms embargo on Vietnam. Let it go, dawg, it's over.

ASDAS

Yes.

About the same time China becomes the world's superpower in 40 years.

Yeah, there are lot of them here. But Asians usually don't cause trouble and mind their own business.

Russia's rusted old nukes from the 70s probably aren't a danger to the US anymore anyway but they might cause Europe some problems.

t. Wong Xiao

same way lots of countries are not unified, even when they speak the same language or have the same ethnicity.

ethnicity is only one factor that unifies a country. different regions need to share a sense that they will prosper more as a unified country than as independent states. The poorer regions especially need to feel like enough money is being sent to them from the central government, and the rich regions cannot resent this transfer of wealth too much.

For example, throughout history, China has balkanized even among majority Han states breaking away from each other. To remedy this, they follow a banking model similar to the Japanese. Take the entire population's savings, put it into a big pot, then hand that money out to any institution that can guarantee high employment (unemployed people create political instability). There are several Han provinces in China (not to mention non-Han places like Tibet) where loyalty is purchased with the end of a bank loan.

Authoritarianism makes it easier for countries like Russia or China to keep peripheral states loyal to the central government.

Spreading lies again because your assblasted about the debate Trumpyboi?

You do know Russia has the most advanced submarines in the world. Literally can nuke you if they wanted to with no warning.

>>>/reddit/
>>>/msnbc/

Not for long, if Motorola has anything to say about it.

>artificial state

He said while posting from a rectangle state.

:^)

>friends with the west
literally never, it's condemned to be forever outside of the west

...

This post gave me a chuckle.

...

...

Most of the "rusted old nukes from the 70s" have been already decommissioned, except for 20 UR-100N missiles. All the rest missiles equipped with nuclear warheads were developed and produced in the 1990s-2010s.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT-2PM2_Topol-M

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-24_Yars

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-26_Rubezh

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-29RMU_Sineva

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-29RMU2_Layner

The typical Russian can be living in a hovel with no electricity, running water, or food and have a despotic government that denies him basic human rights, but the moment he sees a truck hauling a Topol mobile ICBM past his hovel, he smiles and says "All is right with the world."

Yep, all 80s hardware with a new coat of paint.

And then, oh dear, you have to depend on oil prices to have any money for military modernization.

Democratic?

Yes if they dump their oligarchy issues.

Friends with the west?

For all intents and purposes they still are, even if their leadership dicks around with military adventures. We still trade with Russia and you can still travel there. They're simply aggressive and one of the few nations on earth that has enough military and political clout to not have to really fall in line with Western ideals.

...

Regardless of what dumb politicians think, Russia's ruling class isn't stupid enough to start a suicidal war with the US and Europe especially when all of their kids attend college in London/Vienna/Paris and they own vacation homes in Majorca while Average Ivan is passed out in front of a commieblock next to a pile of heroin needles.

US foreign policy in a nutshell.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=OnDxxQugCI0

Take off your proxy, you dumb idiot Kremlinbot.

>80s hardware with a new coat of paint

At least in our navy we don't use wooden ships anymore.

>And then, oh dear, you have to depend on oil prices to have any money for military modernization.

Yes, i know all our economy depends on oil prices. Your point?

Besides which, anti-West propaganda is just there to sell the sheeple on why it's ok to have Africa-tier living standards and accept totalitarianism (if we had democracy, Jews/NATO/whatever would invade you in a week). The sheeple believe it of course because...they're sheeple.

Pretty much this. Most antagonism between Russia and the West is sword shaking to let eachothers nations know not to dick with eachother, though it's probably never going to come down to any hardline conflicts as it's in no ones best interests.

I guess his point was that a dependency on oil prices is a bad thing, but I am not an expert.

>Most antagonism between Russia and the West is sword shaking to let eachothers nations know not to dick with eachother

It's more like

>dependency on oil prices is a bad thing

There's obviously nothing good about it, and i'm not trying to claim otherwise, but i still don't get his point.

I've often wondered why Russia doesn't put more effort into building a world class automotive or electronics industry? Russia has already pretty much proven they can do cheap reliable vehicles and electronics systems in military applications, why not in civil applications. I don't mean rehashed Ural and Lada vehicles, I mean like developing globally competitive vehicles that compete with Ford or Toyota, or electronics to compete with Samsung or Apple. Russia already has enough smart trained people to build up domestic firms to do so. Why haven't any oligarchs poured money into this?

>a single commodity economy is a sound, stable, reliable thing

That was what killed the South in the American Civil War. They became way too dependent on cotton to the point where they lacked any industry and even needed to import food.

...

The Russian and American people are compatible. The governments however, have a long way to go.

In time, it will happen I believe.

Russia has never established an independent technological base of their own. Industry prior to WWII was mostly built by Western investors. After that, they relied on extensive industrial espionage for everything especially advanced technology like electronics and fiber optics.

Western countries build infrastructure in Russia which is then used to supply raw materials to Europe's factories. That was how it was pre-revolution and how it has returned to being. The bulk of the profits from raw materials simply enrich the ruling class while average Ivan lives in poverty and misery. The end. :^)

I was joking 2bh.

>Americans being this stupid

I think I know a little about the ACW being a central event in my country's history, Pytor.

Also whatever technology they did have was strictly designated for national defense. To quote Anwar Sadat, "The Russians built us many factories in Egypt, but all of them quickly became obsolete because they have no technology at all apart from their military."

And nowadays, anyone with an education who could do that kind of thing just emigrates to Germany or something where he will be paid a livable wage and have decent standards of living.

The truth is, Russia has been a sinking ship since 1991. Putin merely put duct tape over the leaks but in time they'll come lose again.

I don't see why Russia couldn't achieve true democracy in time.
Compare the USSR to Russia today and there's been major progress in a very short time. Obviously, that doesn't mean it's ideal now, but it's far ahead of what it once was, and I don't see why we won't look back 30 years from now and think the same thing.

I think Russia gets a bad rap, anyway.
You're alright in my book, lads.

The problem is that Russia (and Putin) have superpower ambitions, missing the Soviet era.

Superpowers always fuck over smaller countries, and thats why lots of Europeans hate Russia. Lets be clear here, if Russia had a opportunity to invade Europe, they would.

they'd get royally fucked if they tried desu

>I've often wondered why Russia doesn't put more effort into building a world class automotive or electronics industry?

Because these products would not be competitive on the world market.

>Russia has already pretty much proven they can do cheap reliable vehicles and electronics systems in military applications, why not in civil applications.

Because military and civil electronics serve quite different purposes. Moreover, our companies producing electronics are far behind the foreign ones - for example, our most modern and advanced CPU 1891BM10Я has the same performance as 10 y.o. Core 2 Duo developed by Intel, but costs 800 times more.

>I mean like developing globally competitive vehicles that compete with Ford or Toyota, or electronics to compete with Samsung or Apple

Because Ford, Toyota, Samsung, Apple and other "big players" already own the consumer market. Who in the sane mind would ever buy a noname shitty smartphone instead of an Samsung or Apple's iPhone for the same price?

>Russia already has enough smart trained people to build up domestic firms to do so.

Most of these "smart trained people" work abroad for foreign companies. Smart people prefer to work in Silicon Valley for $100k/year, not in Zelenograd for 10000 rub/month.

>Why haven't any oligarchs poured money into this?

Because they don't want to lose their money investing into hopeless projects that will never be profitable.

Taiwan managed their electronics well despite making computer fryer in the 90's, can't the state enforce some protectionism?
Even chinks are moving past copying smartphones.