Thoughts on this album/band

I think the point is that he did all those things not just one or two. that's what always defined sp for me. I don't particularly care for them, but they always struck me as way more eclectic than other mainstream bands at the time

The Flaming Lips essentially did all that before him. He's always worked in their shadow.

There are certain album covers that, when I see them on the catalog, the bile begins to rise from my throat. This board really does have garbage taste in music. It's a little astounding that you guys posture and strut as much as you do.

they didn't. flaming lips were better but they definitely stuck to their sound until 97. siamese dream and mellon collie were already out

not to mention that flaming lips were still independent when the pumpkins got huge, so that doesn't really fit the mainstream thing

>definitely stuck to their sound until 97
Try listening to all their albums before commenting
I forgot one band sold out early on, the other didn't

>Try listening to all their albums before commenting
go ahead and point a pre-97 flaming lips album out to me that has more than one of the following
>progressive rock influences, ambitious double albums, electronic influences, releasing stuff for free on the internet, meta-concept albums and such

>I forgot one band sold out early on, the other didn't
irrelevant really since my point was that the pumpkins were eclectic for a mainstream band

This is an album I've listened to my entire life, if anything it's the album that got me into music and broadened my taste. I didn't realize how good this album truly was until someone made me remember it a while back. Fantastic album imo

>>progressive rock influences, ambitious double albums, electronic influences, releasing stuff for free on the internet, meta-concept albums and such
Show me *one* Smashing Pumpkins album that does all of that.
>irrelevant really since my point was that the pumpkins were eclectic for a mainstream band
Well Pumpkins really weren't mainstream until 1997, but then dropped off soon afterwards.

He probably wasn't THE first, but he definitely was one of the firsts, and probably the first "big" band to do any of those. Keep in mind that Corgan's dwellings with electronic stuff dates as far as Earphoria with the little electronic jams, not just Adore.

This. Their diverse influences is what made them stand out imo.

>Keep in mind that Corgan's dwellings with electronic stuff dates as far as Earphoria with the little electronic jams
What are you referring to here?

>Pumpkins weren't mainstream until 1997
Fucking what? They got pretty big with Siamese Dream, and they got huge with Mellon Collie. Those albums were released in 1993 and 1995.

>show me one SP album that does all of that
No one implied they have 1 album that does all of those. He implied they've done all of those through their career, which is true.

that would be machina. also adore and mellon collie do at least three of the five. there is no pre-97 flaming lips album that does just two of them

>Well Pumpkins really weren't mainstream until 1997, but then dropped off soon afterwards.
siamese dream reached number 10 on billboard, to put that in perspective the flaming lips didn't reach that high until 2009

Earphoria has these little interludes where Billy messes around with electronics. Its not anything special and the average SP probably isn't aware of these, but they prove that Billy was messing with that kind of those for quite awhile before releasing Adore.

youtube.com/watch?v=NIQ1BTksD_o

>Fucking what? They got pretty big with Siamese Dream
In the alt-rock sphere, yes. Not mainstream though. not until "1979" and "Tonight Tonight", the singles that really broke them

>No one implied they have 1 album that does all of those
Then why ask me to name one singular album for the Flips? Just goalpost shifting?
>that would be machina
Not a double album. Not free.
>siamese dream reached number 10 on billboard,
Alt rock charts.
Bugg Superstar was written and performed by James Iha you dope

Try again.

>Not a double album. Not free.
I mean it was literally a double album with one half released for free online

>Alt rock charts.
the Billboard 200 is not an alt rock chart

No one is shifting goalposts. No one said any SP or FL album did all of those, yet you keep insisting we did. Seems to me you're the one shifting goalposts.

>Bugg Superstar was written and performed by James Iha you dope
True. That's not relevant though, he is part of the band after all.

>I mean it was literally a double album
It literally was not. The label wouldn't let them release it, so he scrapped it and made the single album Machina.
>the Billboard 200 is not an alt rock chart
Show otherwise. You won't be able to a source for this
>No one said any SP or FL album did all of those
See >go ahead and point a pre-97 flaming lips album out to me
Yikes
>That's not relevant though, he is part of the band after all.
More goalpost shifting.

this. all I said is that the pumpkins did multiple of those things before the flaming lips. machina is the only album between both bands that does all of them (admittedly only by a technicality)

>Yikes
there is no flaming lips album before '97 with more than two of those things. prove me wrong or shut the fuck up

>You won't be able to a source for this
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siamese_Dream#Charts_and_certifications
original source is footnoted

>No one said any SP or FL album did all of those
the post you quoted doesn't contradict this. try reading it

>It literally was not. The label wouldn't let them release it, so he scrapped it and made the single album Machina.
so exactly what I said. it was intended as a double album so he released the second half online for free

>there is no flaming lips album before '97 with more than two of those things. prove me wrong or shut the fuck up
In A Priest Driven Ambulance is a concept album, influenced by prog, and uses samples. They also released the demos for the album free as a cassette bootleg to their fanclub. Nice try though
>original source is footnoted
Follow the link. it doesn't exist.
>so exactly what I said.
Wrong. You think Machina I was disc 1 and Machina 2 was Disc 2, which is incorrect. What was released as Machina 2 was simply the outtakes that didn't make the first album because, as I said, the concept was scrapped and it was just a single-disc, non-concept album that made no sense to anyone.

See pic related. If both Machinas were organized like that, then yes, it's a double concept album. But it wasn't.

>n A Priest Driven Ambulance is a concept album
very loosely

>influenced by prog
how so?

>uses samples
so what electronic genre was it influenced by? on its own that's an extremely low bar to count as "electronic influences"

>Follow the link. it doesn't exist.
virtually anywhere you go will tell you the billboard 200 isn't for alt-rock, not least the fact it's currently dominated by pop and hip hop

>Wrong
like I said, it's a technicality and not really a problem because my original claim was never that the pumpkins had all of those at once

I love them but most stuff post Adore is garbage

Nah son. Machina is great despite the shit production. Oceania is at least on Adore levels. Machina II also has quite a few good songs.

This is in my top 5 of all time
Mayonaise is probably my favourite song ever

>how so?
It was influenced by Can
>so what electronic genre was it influenced by?
How is this relevant?
>virtually anywhere you go will tell you the billboard 200 isn't for alt-rock
The position of the album was on an alt0rock chart. I'm sorry you have no sources to back up your claim though
>like I said, it's a technicality and not really a problem because my original claim was never that the pumpkins had all of those at once
Oh is this you? >that would be machina

It's not good you guys. Don't fall for the Siamese Meme.

>Disarm you with a smile

could he have possibly written more cringy lyrics if he tried?

fuck off

>could he have possibly written more cringy lyrics if he tried?
How about
>quiet
>I am sleeping

>It was influenced by Can
sorry, I asked how not who

>How is this relevant?
the influence part of "electronic influences" is rather important

>The position of the album was on an alt0rock chart. I'm sorry you have no sources to back up your claim though
so where is this alt-rock chart?

>sorry, I asked how not who
"Wow we are influenced by Can!"
Pretty simple
>the influence part of "electronic influences" is rather important
Well are you not familiar with the history of sampling?
>so where is this alt-rock chart?
It's your argument, you tell me.

>Can
>an electronic band
And yes I'm aware of their production and recording processes.
Supposedly Ke$ha was influenced by The Residents. An artist can be influenced by another artist and not display it in their own art.

Unless you can pinpoint songs from the album where the prog rock influences are neatly displayed that's not really relevant.

Great album, definitely their best. I think Mellon Collie has better individual songs like 1979 or Thirty-Three but its just too long with a lot of meh songs.

>"Wow we are influenced by Can!"
>Pretty simple
simple yes, but not really sufficient as an answer to my question

>the influence part of "electronic influences" is rather important
a sampler is an instrument and sampling is a method. these are things you can use, not take influence from. unless you are going to specify an electronic genre or artist they took influence from, and how, this is irrelevant

>It's your argument, you tell me.
no, it's your argument that they were on an alt-rock chart. your argument was also that they weren't more popular than the flaming lips at the time, which you haven't provided evidence for

What MC songs you think are meh? I keep seeing this opinion possted around as the main criticism for that album, but every time I listen to it I think every song adds to the album and wouldn't cut anything desu

I love this album and this band but this thread has been ruined by a retarded pedantic argument

is there any other albums like this? just recently listened to this, i didn't like MCATIS but i loved this album.

>>Can
>>an electronic band
Quote me where I said that?
>And yes I'm aware of their production and recording processes.
OK excellent. Thanks for the conversation
>but not really sufficient as an answer to my question
What do you want to know specifically?
>a sampler is an instrument and sampling is a method. these are things you can use, not take influence from
How about Stockhausen and Delia Derbyshire.
>no, it's your argument that they were on an alt-rock chart
No that was a retort to your (incorrect) argument that they were on a chart in the first place. Please read the thread if you are confused.

>What do you want to know specifically?
how they were influenced by can and progressive rock

>How about Stockhausen and Delia Derbyshire.
again, I asked how. I could tell you beyonce was influenced by brainiac, that doesn't make it true. sources might help your case

>No that was a retort to your (incorrect) argument that they were on a chart in the first place.
so it was your argument, that's what I said. also mine was correct, your low bandwidth isn't really proof to the contrary

Check out Catherine. They're the ones who gave Billy the idea to use Big Muff pedals, the main responsible for that thick, shoegazish sound of early SP. Billy produced some of their stuff too, so they sound similar.

Silversun Pickups are basically SP ripoffs (although a pretty neat band nonetheless) so check them out too.

Truly had a grunge-y, shoegazish, psychadelic sound, they might be up your alley.

Catherine Wheel mixed shoegaze and dense wall of sounds with a more muscular rock sound, the same approach of early SP. Ferment, Chrome and the Like Cats and Dogs B-side compilation are all fantastic.

Swervedriver also had that rock/shoegaze sound.

You might also dig the rockier nu-gaze bands like Weed, Nothing, Cheatahs, Die! Die! Die!, etc.

Dude, they can be influenced by fucking Mozart, if their music doesn't show those influences it doesn't really matter. Unless you link a song with clear prog rock and/or electronic influences, this doesn't matter.

>they weren't on a chart
officialcharts.com/artist/28056/smashing-pumpkins/
billboard.com/artist/279618/smashing-pumpkins/chart

>how they were influenced by can and progressive rock
Because they heard tago mago and wanted to emulate that. Aren't you familiar with the album?
>again, I asked how.
Not necessary. It was not a part of the original argument. You never listed Corgan's specific influences, I am not required to do the same. providing evidence of electronic manipulation on the album in question is enough.

If you would like more information on the subject I can refer you to some sources where you can learn more about it if you want
>also mine was correct
[citation needed]

Be sure to show the actual p[age wikipedia is (falsely) referencing

>officialcharts.com/artist/28056/smashing-pumpkins/
>billboard.com/artist/279618/smashing-pumpkins/chart
There's no citation in those links
>Dude, they can be influenced by fucking Mozart, if their music doesn't show those influences it doesn't really matter.
Hey don't get upset you never bothered listening to the album I'm discussing

>Because they heard tago mago and wanted to emulate that.
no, I said how not why

we've been at this for well over an hour and are on a tangent so far removed from the original point it's nonsensical, so I'm gonna leave now

make sure to print out this thread and frame it as another shitposting victory

>literally official sites
>still not enough
By now I'm pretty sure you'd disregard any more links I'd post m8.

I've listened to the album (albeit quite some time ago). I recall it being more of the same early Lips noise pop sound, with the occasional samples and religious themed lyrics. Don't remember it showing clear traits of prog rock or any other uses of electronic besides sampling, and I don't think that's really enough to conclude that they were "influenced by electronic music".

>so I'm gonna leave now
Been nice talking to you. Come back again when you wanna get REKT
>>literally official sites
Then there would be a citation
>I've listened to the album (albeit quite some time ago). I recall it being more of the same early Lips noise pop sound, with the occasional samples and religious themed lyrics.
Oh look you've just took the information that I've mentioned in this thread about it and regurgitated it! Surely you've heard it!
Maybe you can also regurgitate whatever you read on wikipedia about it as well?

>>>literally official sites
>Then there would be a citation
What is this nigga doing

What? If I accuratly describe the album then its because I've checked wikipedia? Lmao looks like you're gasping for straws

Tell you something, I remember it had some neat lead guitar, but wasn't too impressed by the songwriting. It was pretty repetitive.

Its an 11/10 familia if im going to be honest

Give me specific details to prove you've heard it.

Loveless is garbage, you're only being unfair to it by comparing it to a masterwork of 90s rock composition like Siamese Dream

I literally just came to Cred Forums to start a thread on it

Yup it's incredibly good, way better than any of their other albums IMO

Loveless is shite

Nevermind is good but it's nowhere near as good as Siamese Dream

>the Grunge ELO

I unironically love Zeitgeist

I don't give a fuck what you say

It's a great rock album

First track opened and ended with noisy guitars and some samples, it wasn't pretty remarkable tho.
Second track had a pretty neat lead guitar playing.
There was that Mars song that was pretty repetitive and calm.
There was a track with pretty neat buzzsaw guitar bursts.
They used flanger effect a lot in one of the end tracks.
This is what I remember.
Again, its mostly a noise pop album that features samples. Its religious themed, but a bit too loose to be considered a concept album. It also doesn't showcase prog rock feats, most songs are pretty samey.

I dig the heavy, metallic stoner rock sound. The songwriting is mostly shit and the production way too loud. It has some good shit on it though, like Tarantula and the United States.

>what I think about it is...
Not relevant

>Its religious themed, but a bit too loose to be considered a concept album.
No I am talking about In A Priest Driven Ambulance, not Machina/The Machines of God
>It also doesn't showcase prog rock feats
Half the songs sound like Can. It's really not my fault that you are musically illiterate.

>The songwriting is mostly shit

I don't know if I agree. I know people criticise the lyrical content but I don't listen to that

You're right, Tarantula is a great song, I used to listen to it fucking loads

But I think lots of other songs on there are really great too.

Yes it's never going to be a classic, no one is ever going to love it as much as Siamese Dream. But I do find myself listening to Zeitgeist quite a lot. In fact it's probably my second most listened to SP album. It's either that or Mellon Collie, which is an album that has some good songs but overall has too much filler really. Zeitgeist is generally pretty good throughout though. And I just love the thick grungy sound which reminds me of Siamese Dream.

>half the songs sound like Can
Yeah the absence of the motorik beat, garage rock guitars, lack of jams, 3-5min songs that follow regular pop structure really showcase that hun.

Also, Machina isn't about religion. Shows that you never listened to it.

>67 posts
>19 posters
A lot of autism ITT

Siamese was shoegazish, while Zeitgeist was metallic. They have two very different approaches that end up manifestating themselves in the songwriting, the latter being more riff driven. I understand completely how Zeitgeist might appeal to some more than their other stuff.

What did you think of Oceania?

>thread features anons replying to each other, having some kind of discussion
>he'd prefer 67 anons shitposting around
s4s is this way bruh ;))))

There are cringy Corgan lines, but neither of these are. How do you judge lyrics?

His lyrics in the 90's were pretty good. Angsty in that really 90's kind of way. His worst lyrics are probably in Eulegy. That shit is atrocious. He literally repeats the word "love" every two verses in all songs. Its some middle-school-tier shit going on.

I never really got into it. Panopticon is a really good song. But yeah I guess I didn't really listen to it enough, but it just didn't really draw me in that much.

Maybe I should give it more of a chance. I know it's got good reviews and is considered better than Zeitgeist

Also I've not listened to the newest one, no idea what that's like

i think it's insincere, but maybe i just can't relate to it

Loveless is fucking better by far

Not as heavy as Zeitgeist, but more atmospheric. It feels inspired as fuck and its wonderfully produced, give it another chance.

Elegy was shite. Synths everywhere, all songs follow the same structure, failed attempts at anthemic hooks, lyrics like described in . Listen to it once if you want to kill the curiosity. Probably their worst album.

that is sad to hear about elegy. do you think he just stopped trying, or was it one of those situations like adore where it just seemed like his sentimentality was clouding his judgment as to what was a decent song and what wasn't?

I think he tried to make it big commercially, and just shat an album full of his perceived stereotypes of a pop album. IIRC he said that album would be poppish before releasing it, but damn he overdid that shit. I just hope he gets more wild and adventurous on his next release. It would be dope if he returned to his post-punk and goth roots desu

>It would be dope if he returned to his post-punk and goth roots desu
I agree. I enjoyed oceania not just because it was good, but because something about the music made it sound like he'd gotten over some of his issues, and I was kind of happy for him for that. but aesthetically I prefer his sad broody stuff.

Adore is the best SP album after SD.

oh I love adore. it has some amazing tracks and a killer finish. but parts of the first side (mainly daphne descends and once upon a time) seem clunky. in a way it almost feels like he wrote them just to get out his grief and then overproduced them to make up for a reluctance to revisit/change the lyrics. very understandable considering the shit he'd been through in the previous year or two. but those two tracks still sound off to me.

Wow so you haven't heard either albums.

Nice b8 btw

Billy also kinda can't sing which is why he adopted that style he has.

lol what a bad opinion

You really nailed it. I liked Oceania due to its spacious, fresh sound, and most of it effectively comes due to the reasons you mentioned.

Apparently he now has a son with his 22 year old wife and a secondary career promoting wrestling. Doesn't look like he'll write sad stuff for a while unfortunely.

yeah the MC is great. the only song i'm not really a fan of is Tales of a Scorched Earth but the rest is good

i don't get why people call it filler

youtube.com/watch?v=R9iIDrpuHlY

anyone else feel Corgan's guitar playing is underrated?

that solo is pretty insane

>anyone else feel Corgan's guitar playing is underrated?
I do

Fuck yes. His tones, perfect balance between technic and melody, psychadelic influences and shredding bursts result in a really unique style. He has made some sounds I've never seen anyone make.

The 15min jam track Why Am I So Tired is pretty insane.

Hummer best song

that one is very good but I like rocket just a little more, for that guitar at about 0:56

if I had to pick an overall fave though, it would probably be here's to the atom bomb

lel the autism is off the charts