I make bread for a living. I hate my coworkers and the place I work. Can't see me lasting there much longer...

I'm a programmer and it is fucked.

Why would you want to write fucking code all fucking day.

I fell for the meme in highschool

>$80/hr though

What do you program? I work in C most of the time. Most people don't even bother with the low-level stuff anymore and don't even know what a TLB miss is. Feels good to be on top of the heap.

I like computers, plus I'm good at problem solving, math, attention to detail, and abstract thinking. Further, I'd like to make more money, and just don't see that happening.

I'm good at what I do, but I'm not going to make any more money unless I start my own place which would fundamentally shift the entirety of my workload onto things I have little interest doing. Further, there's a lot of work, and good luck involved in actually succeeding in that area.

You think that you would, but then you do it for eight years as I have. You get chronic sinus infections, your feet have callouses on every nook and cranny, your bones creak, and your muscles ache daily from standing/running around for 8-10 hours with literally no breaks 5-7 days a week. If you're lucky, and good at what you do you'll get even busier meaning making more money, but you won't want to hire more people so you're more profitable and just have to constantly work harder.

I just know I can't do it forever is the thing. We have a few people into their 60s at my work, and it's devastating to watch how poor their physical and mental conditions are.

Don't even install Linux it's a piece of plain crap to start with. You on PC ? It's damn fine. It will spare you the hassle of installing a fucking hundred libraries just to display a fucking window.

I have been programming for over 7 years now (mostly C, C#, Java and Python) and I worked on all kind of Linux distribs, Windows and Mac computers. Just use what you are confident with.

To start learning I would go with Python or Ruby On Rails. You will get satisfying result in a very short amount of time.

Get an eye on this website to start with
learnpythonthehardway

>no idea what he's talking about

I've been programming for 10 years now, and the first three years I only produced crappy code until I switched to linux. Ever since I've been doing stuff there that Windows cannot even dream of.

You should at least give it a try to see how different operating systems and their structures can be. On a technical standpoint, Linux is superior to Windows. But then Linux has crappy old frameworks still dragging it down, lots of programmers who DON'T know what they are doing, and a lot of NIH syndromes.

>I've been programming for 10 years now, and the first three years I only produced crappy code until I switched to linux
errr... this is not relevant. Programming principles are unrelated to the OS you're programming for.

On a technical standpoint Linux is superior to Windows. I cannot agree more than that. But for someone who won't have a clue where to start with programming solving drivers, kernel, packages issues will just add to the huge pile of crap to deal with.

Well, thanks everyone for genuine replies. I think this is a good start of info for me to chew on and explore over the next few weeks/months. Much appreciated.

I guess op kneads the dough.

>errr... this is not relevant. Programming principles are unrelated to the OS you're programming for.
Errr, it is. I am working on a low-level framework for both Windows and Linux. Memory management on Linux is a charm; I can just use mremap to increase or decrease the size of mappings, and usage of hugepages is also really easy. On Windows I have to manage a page table in user space, which is slow and clunky and bug-riddled, and hugepages are next to impossible to set up properly. I have tried. Oh how I have tried.

Python and Perl are more easy to set up on Linux, because they are usually distributed right from the beginning. As well as the compiler. Linux is a developers platform, Windows is a consumer platform.

I started with low level programming when I was young (ASM and C). It tought me hundreds of programming principles. But if I had to redo it all I would go for Python at least in the first few years. As producing something you are proud of is 1000x more satisfying than dealing with complexity and compiler issues.

Anyway OP, good luck !

OP is not a developer yet. He is a consumer. Wouldn't it be easier to code in the next 30 minutes, than to wait hours to install a new OS, and days to know how to handle it ?

When I read this shit in this thread, now I know why there are so many weak developers.

>hours to install a new OS
Nigger what? I have a virtual machine installed here, I can prepare a new virtual machine usually within 30 minutes. Then update all packages - which takes about 30 minutes max as well - and you are ready to go. Or don't update them, because you don't require network access.

OP wants to become a developer. For that he should switch to a developer platform is all I'm saying. Yes, the transition is not going to be easy. But he'll learn what the differences are soon enough. That's from personal experience.

Elaborate, I'm thinking of doing this as a job.
Tips?
What do you do/ who do you work for?

OP, there are a ton of very helpful online learning tools these days to help you at least dip your toe in the pond. You might want to check out something like CodeSchool, FreeCodeCamp or CodeAcademy. They have code-along courses for a wide variety of languages, and they're pretty good about grouping them in sensible ways. If you just want to start coding today, give one of those a shot and see what you like. If you wind up liking a particular language or you figure out what you like programming, you can check out a site like Udemy for some more engaging/full-scoped study. Finally, if you check out iTunes U, there's more traditional coursework from Stanford/MIT/CalTech that teaches you the core fundamentals of computer science. Best of luck!

Yeah right, I'm going to learn how to build an engine before buying a car.

Everyone you will get advice from will not be a programmer, as every programmer can see you're a posh posh bread baking air head who doesn't get along with people.

Thought you should know OP

>not understand anything I have written
OK. I'll refrain from giving you attention as of now.

Cool, thanks.

No, that's not true.
Programmers will not answer you unless they think that you might learn something from it. I did have that impression - the OP had good grammar and spelling, so it was to assume that he wouldn't dismiss good advices immediately. That's why I bothered to reply in the first place.

...

Suggest you learn some simple languages at a starters but it really depends on what you want to create. Personally I suggest starting with C#, the moving onto Python/JavaScript, then Ruby/Perl, then any further languages
But then again depends on your aims, just dont start with C or C++ as they both encourage bad coding practises
Also regarding Operating System, doesnt really matter, personally for a beginner I recommend a Mac

Also learnhow2google, it will be very useful

Well, to be honest I expected more troll responses, and genuinely appreciate the dialog that came of this. I realize I was a bit hyperbolic in my OP, but I appreciate you recognized the genuine tenor of my post.

I'm just in a bad spot at the moment. Further, I doubt Cred Forums wants to hear about the intricacies of why my new-age hippie coworkers bother me to no end. But if anyone does, I'll gladly spill the beans.

Programmers won't answer you if you sound like a cunt, because they don't have time. Grammar or no.

I mean, it is Cred Forums. I think pretty much everyone on here sounds like a cunt.

>be good programmer
>learn how to be good programmer from Udemy

Maybe that's the way you think. Perhaps OPs coworkers are decent and can't speak for themselves.

Use the skills you already know from breadmaking, study homebrewing, get a job making beer.

Oh go on.

Shut up, Josh.

>how to make the bread king into a skiddie shitstain overnight.exe

OP! I love making bread at home, what are some tips to up my bread game?

I recognize envy when I see it.

you make $85k cooking dough?

now that's cooking dough! $$$

I am not the OP, just sayin'.

Kek, are you actually Josh?

SMH Fucking panera bakers...........

good work man, keep up what you're doing and you might develop something really noteworthy!

in my opinion a good start is an object oriented language like python, teaches the logic okay, and structures to observe, then i'd move to java, then C and it's variations
then i would move into functional languages, like javascript, lisp, etc. but thats how i've been taught i found it easier having the OO logic to learn the more complex side so

I don't even know who Josh is, but he is not me. At least THAT I know.

Well, there's a growing group of women who basically cut men out of all conversations/decisions because of whatever personality conflicts we have had in the past. Constant micromanagement, low quality, high production, back breaking work, with zero appreciation from the people who ask the most. Just thankless work, and I'm breaking my body to do it and not getting paid a ton of money. It's good, just good enough to stay for now, but not for long.

What kind of technical knowledge do you have already?

do you know your way around an OS?

Most of the really high paying jobs require secondary education/ tertiary.

"programming " is a pretty broad term - maybe find some people at a local networking meeting, and ask them about their jobs - what they like, what they don't like, and at the end get the specifics.

do some informational interviews. I agree with starting with something high level like python.

what city are you in?

You'd be surprised how often I was asked for the source code.

arch
either vanilla (needs tutorials or experience with linux) or with a graphical installer like manjaro or antergos
best distro out there

Millions in annual sales, highest profit margin ever this year. Definitely not normal, but currently what I expect to make.

your biggest issue is when you finish training you still are considered a novice programmer so you won't get a whole hell of a lot when you start, after a couple years in the field you will be getting good money provided you working at a successful place

Sorry man, you sound like my buddy Josh. You're not, obviously. I was just giving you shit. You have good advice.

That's not bad, op.

Maybe be a entrepreneur in the field of baking?

You are an humongerous faggot.

I think op said he didn't want that kind of job... but yeah, that is what I was thinking. leverage your knowledge and contacts, etc.

Anyone that tells you it is a good idea to be a programmer either is messing with you or is ignorant. The best thing Cred Forums could do is to do what it does best, and try and break your spirit wanting to learn to code, because I promise you, unless you love money above all, or love overcoming challenges no matter how tough, programming WILL break you more thoroughly than Cred Forums ever could.

tl;dr you don't pick up coding for the lulz or the keks.

It's a personal question in a lot of ways. But the two books in my library I'd keep if I could only keep two would be Tartine Bread (or Book #3) by Chad Robertson, and Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes by Jeffrey Hamelman. The latter is definitely geared more towards professionals, but also has smaller batch sizes for the home baker. The Tartine method produces a very special, if finicky, type of bread that is totally worth the trouble and one of my all time favorites.

Okay, you sound a lot less queer. But I also think you should stick with what you know. Programming forerunners start young to make the big bucks and the rest are hard ground gears. It doesn't sound like you enjoy or could handle that last one. Which I am implying you would likely start out and end up as.

>unless you love money above all, or love overcoming challenges no matter how tough, programming WILL break you more thoroughly than Cred Forums ever could.
Yup, that's what programming is about - overcoming challenges. You depicted that all right.

I certainly appreciate your candor, and fully realize that it's probably likely. I'm basically a hard ground gear at the moment, just in a high volume production bakery. If I felt I could do it forever and not end up with permanent back injuries (happens often) or something to that effect I'd probably put more energy into starting my own thing. I'm in talks with a few people about doing just that, it's just that the more I think about it the more I don't want to do it. Managing minimum wage twenty somethings that don't give a shit is something I've already done in past experiences.

If you go into programming for money, you won't make it. Programming takes passion, and companies are not going to train you at exorbitant amounts of money for you to learn onsite, and you are just going to become a debt slave or waste your savings if you go to school. If you don't know what language you WANT to use, then just give up. JUST. GIVE. UP.

You need passion. I know all of those languages you listed and easily a dozen more, and I didn't need to be coddled and to be told 'which language should I learn to land the best job', I have an extensive resume and decades of experience, and I am one of countless others you will be competing against... people that ACTUALLY want to be here and are not just collecting a check. You have absolutely no idea what failures await you, especially if you are just going into programming for money.

The thing is, programming is all about constant and absolute failure. Not only is that the nature of the business, not only is that the nature of any given project, but that is the nature of programming itself... YOU WILL GET KNOCKED DOWN AND FUCKED, all without getting paid, all while working retarded hours, all while under insanity breeding stress... AND YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE MAKES YOU THE MOST MONEY? Completely daft.

You are soft, and you simply wont make it.

But... you won't listen, and I give you less than a year before you give up when the truckloads of cash doesn't arrive effortlessly at your doorstep, and then you can think back to this post and know exactly what I am talking about.

If you think about it differently, that is the only chance that you will have to make it in this business. Instead of asking what language you should learn to make money, you should instead tell yourself 'I am making a program, for free, right now, because it is something I genuinely want to do'.

Once you get that far, you will understand why your question is completely retarded.

Nail on the head!

Hmm. Do your own thing somewhere you can find a niche. Production will be low, quality high. Something crazy like having a little pueblo stove outside your hut. Word of mouth bam some bakery asks you to carry it by popular demand and you lay out what you have been working on since you started. Business comes to you when you feel it's necessary.

I'll admit I don't know bread that way, I assume kneading big loaves is taxing?

Thanks, totally understand. But like I said, I'm looking for a foundation. I know it's not an easy road to take, in fact I'd give someone a similar speech if they were thinking of getting in to the food service industry. It's not for everyone, just like everything.

I totally respect what you're saying, and think you make some great points. But I think perhaps what you heard me saying was different than I intended. All I was looking for is a starting point, as you noticed I have no idea where that should be. I'd like to try some of the above recommendations, see if I can make some of my ideas come to fruition and then see if I can pursue it as a career eventually. I'm not expecting to make an app and instantly be fielding dozens of job offers making six figures.

I'm just considering other options and I think this would be a good fit for me. I started with one loaf of bread 8 years ago, and now I'm part owner of a successful bakery. So instant gratification isn't exactly something I'm expecting, ever.

I'm tired, and probably not making myself clear. So I'll save all this and reread tomorrow But thanks again to you and everyone else for all the food for thought. It's all appreciated.

I disagree with your assessment.

While passion really, ABSOLUTELY is key to programming - simply because it's such a tasking profession - one must also keep reality in mind. And reality deals with economics also.

Imagine you being a PHP "developer". There wouldn't be anything special about you. You would be completely replaceable.

Imagine you being a C/assemble developer. There ain't that many low-level developers around, and they are direly sought after. Those people are hardly replaceable. Ever wondered why there are relatively few BIOS updates out there? Because there aren't enough people around to manage the source code.

Then we have high-level developers. Their pay ain't that hight, but also not that low. But they are still somewhat replaceable. They make decent cash, but also have to show performance. I'd say a good deal of people become high-level developers, not for passion, but for the money. And few people become low-level programmers for passion and money.

Money is a fact that has to be dealt with IRL. And I cannot judge people who just want to make a quick buck.

Unless they are interfering with me. I audit source code. You wouldn't believe the "quality" of work most programmers dare to commit. And whenever I call them out on that they don't give a fuck. Those people I really hate, and I chew them out whenever I can. It gives me a perverse satisfaction to abuse them for not applying the most simple programming paradigms.

>I assume kneading big loaves is taxing?

Today I personally made, and baked about $2400 in finished product. It's not the size, it's the repetition, scale and the physicality required to do that every day, week after week.

If I do end up doing my own thing, it'll definitely be like you said, smaller scale, higher quality and prices to match.

Programming will make your soul match your body. Is that what you want to do at this age?

I get the physical thing. We are mostly out of shape. But you sound like you have a fine knack for bread AND business.

Honestly, I just wanted to see what some of the major starting points people would recommend. But all these comments are the real food for thought. Thanks again all, going to bed now.

Learn 'programming" isn't the right goal to achieve. You need to have a plan for a *job*. What do you wanna do ? For some jobs, programming isn't necessary.

Anyway, begin with python : easy script language, easy to understand, easy to write and test. Then learn an object language : java for instance, which will teach you polymorphism, inheritance, etc. Then you can go for a low-level language, such as C, which will teach you the way system and memory works.

Believe it or not, there's a few really knowledgable people on that site. The ratio is 1:1000, but the top ones are legit.