"DUDE... JESUS NEVER EXISTED"

He did actually exist.

was almost right until he got to the specifics. Jesus was probably a blip on the radar. It's very likely Pilate didn't even know he existed. He just got a routine crucification and then mythology grew from there. It's like getting killed by the police, and then slowly the myth grew into being killed by President Obama himself.

Hmmm, kinda, I think universally agreed is a bit strong. But yeah it's pretty likely he existed. That said there are relatively few mentions of him given his supposed prominence.

Why would anyone invent a mythology about a criminal executed outside the city walls?

There a a couple of contemporary Roman texts that mention him iirc

> documented within the century of his death
> documented 20 - 40 years after his death (religious or secular source)
> his movement was already a problem for both the romans and jews within two decades of his death
> romans and jews never tried to debunk Christians for their made up messiah
> romans and jews document him their histories and writings

But no, it was a grand conspiracy made up by the church. If you dont believe the evidence for Christ, why should you believe the evidence for historical figures who were much more revered in their day and are only a evidenced by a passing mention in some document.

why would anyone NOT invent a mythology about literally anything?

Nobody knows whether he did or not, user. It's very possible that he did, but then again, the jesus we know may be an amalgamation of several different people. We may never know for sure.

It's similar to say, Socrates, who may have been real or may have been invented by Plato.

Adam & Eve existed too! all scholars agree

Ehrman states that there was a "prophet" before Jesus' supposed birth who was exactly like Jesus who people believed he had done miracles and was sent by God.

I forgot his name but it is mentioned in one of Ehrman's books.

Anyway Ehrman does believe that someone like Jesus did exist although there isnt any proof in writing from the 1st century

Not contemporary and nothing about the actual man.

A hundred years later, references to a cult for a man.

Have you read up on it? One of those mentions was actually of a "Chrestus," which may or may not have been him. Another mention by Pliny the younger is widely suspected to be a forgery.

>le first specimen of the "homo sapiens" species did not exist
damn reddit youre grasping at straws today

...

>mfw no one remembers the original Gods

>repeating these basic bitch Christian apologetics memes
>implying "debunking" myths and legends was even a thing back then

>Nobody knows whether he did or not, user.

I'd say it's very likely he got crucified.

Zealous jews were commonly crucified for insurrection, especially during the second destruction of the temple. Jesus wasn't the first, nor the last. His death, however, seemed to stick with people longer. His name and myth were easier to memeify.

Don't think that's how evolution works but I'm no expert

Matthew, Mark, Luke do not claim Jesus is God whereas Gospel of John does claim Jesus is God

That is a bogus claim.

We also have a Jewish source from the first century which is much more fitting since his movement was growing out of the middle east.

Because it's pretty stupid story to just make up, if that's the way it went down.

The testimony of Jesus's Ressurection was given by women. In those days a woman's testimony was considered invalid in court.

And then why would they risk their lives by preaching the Ressurection if it was just something they made up? Why would they remain so dedicated?

>A buddhist cult leader definitely never existed in any point in time

Jesus deniers are retarded. It's not his fault the fan fac after he died is so cancerous.

Maybe, maybe not. It's pretty interesting that no less great a person that Pontius Pilate was said to be present at his execution, yet this is never verified by contemporary historians. It could be argued that the records could have been lost, but that's grasping at straws.

There is about as much evidence that Jesus existed as there is for mythical figures such as Hercules, so...

> fan fic that united europe
> cancerous

it will crumble without it.

See
Ehrman is aware that the early Jews did write about Jesus but there technically is no written source by any political members about Jesus' activities apart from that 1 passage that says he died and was resurrected but scholars believe a Christian snuck this verse in because no other historian in 1st century that mentions Jesus.

But I may be wrong

I'm not denying that it's possible, but It's certainly not a 100% verifiable fact either.

The best we can do infer there must have been someone like him who lived judging by the considerable influence he had from word of mouth that eventually became exaggerated into what became the gospels.

>Because it's pretty stupid story to just make up

human beings making stupid stories is the tagline for our entire existence.

>There is about as much evidence that Jesus existed as there is for mythical figures such as Hercules, so...

Just because you dont believe in the substance of religious documents, doesnt mean you can dismiss them. The Gospel of Mark is dated within 40 years of Christs death and makes very definite claims of truth regarding people, events and place.

There is no such equivalency with mythological figures.

No, you're 100% right.

>mfw everyone cares only about their Greek and Norse mythology and doesn't give two shits about Egyptian, much less Sumerian mythology
>mfw no one remembers the original hero Gilgamesh anymore
>mfw his only shot at immortality is gone

Not the cult of Mithras is it?

i believe in god but i dont believe in jesus. jesus is just a myth taken from an earlier myth. sorry christfag

Lee strobel pls leave

Christians were saying that Jesus died and was resurrected before the Gospels were even written. It started with word of mouth that became an oral tradition that became a written tradition that was codified into the gospels that we know today. All of this was undeniably accomplished by the beginning of the second century which is remarkably fast.

The problem is that the claims made by gospels aren't verified by any other contemporary sources. It's very strange, considering many historians existed at the time. The christian texts have an agenda that makes them suspect and difficult to trust in their own.

>There is about as much evidence that Jesus existed as there is for mythical figures such as Hercules, so...

I would disagree. Hercules was a myth from day 1. Jesus actually has plausible human origins from a verified moment in history - the jewish/roman wars.

It's like something making a story about a mythical fighter in World War II who killed millions of japs. He probably didn't exist, but it's pretty fucking likely he was based on someone who did exist (but exaggerated), just by statistics.

maybe they shouldn't have [35 lines of text missing] and that would have granted Gilgamesh immortality

Pliny the younger mentions it, but gets several details wrong, implying that it's second hand information.

>millions of people around the world attest to feeling the power of christ when they pray
>Hur dur scientific evidence isn't compelling uh duuh

Go to church, take it seriously, and then come back here and tell me jesus isn't real.

because they WANTED to believe it
some random schmuck telling the romans and the pharisees where to stick it? i'd vote for him

Fair points, I agree with both paragraphs. Socrates is probably a better analogy than Hercules.

How did someone who didn't even exist manage to completely change the course of human history?

Hercules was not myth from day 1 user.

Do you realize how stupid and impressionable the average person is?

I hope you aren't serious.

Has to be bait.

millions of people attest to the power of bringing their preferred sports team luck every weekend by wearing particular items of clothes particular ways, but I don't get a tax exemption for that

plenty of fictional stories have changed history

but it's the authors of these myths who should be given credit

The man may have existed, but it was arguably the myths and belief systems structured around his deific status that changed the world rather than the man himself.

Dont you think that every document concerning a revered historical figure has an agenda?

MUSLIMS GONNA FREAK

...

Not necessarily, but this is the case 100% with fucking religious figures. Especially when your whole system of beliefs relies on said figure's divinity.

Don't mind me guys. I'm just leaving this here.

Yeah, that's stupid tho. We got Muhammad from both ERE and(IIRC) Persian sauces.

Many revered historical figures can be verified by independent sources that corroborate one another. Some can't.

This is what we mean by saying that some figures of the past have more historicity than others.

...

Okay, show of hands. How many people here are enlightened by their own intelligence?

I don't think any big religion can take off without some kind of anchor to reality, even stupid peasants back then wouldn't buy it if you just made up jesus on the spot

>le hat meme

Checkmate atheists :^D

Ancient Egyptians were not Blacks! It is so absurd that some actually think this

Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up must come down, down. down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.

And there an intersting thread goes to shit.

...

Jesus Christs is corroborated and documented very well for a poor Jewish preacher.

I could for instance point out the writer of the pillow book and tell you that is the only document of her life and existence. That was almost a thousand years after Christ.

My personal theory is that Jesus is based on one or several jewish thinkers who were influenced by Buddhists monks from the silk road. Maybe one of them did happen to get crucified for shaken things up too much and ended up getting rolled together with several others, aquiring aspects of other solar saviors from Persian and other middle eastern religions through the word of mouth over a half century or so until we finally ended up with the deific Christ that was set into writing.

Explain why this is r/atheism though? Millions of people attest to the healing power of special crystals and homeopathy, but we use actual medicine rather than those because we can prove they work, and we don't take their personal statements as evidence.

'A Japanese model (Vivian Wu) who likes lovers to adorn her body with calligraphy falls for an erotic Englishman '.

What is an 'erotic englishman'?

...

>i am so le enlightened by my own le smartness i came all the way here fom reddit to try to shill mt degenerate lies about Jesus Christ
You are the worst excuses of human beings on this planet. Jesus existed. I feel sorry for you fat autist child molesttors that use the lords name in vain and question his existence.dont worry. one day you WILL face him and have to answer for your treachoury.

Yeah, the nature of the person is question kind of begs the question of why impotent scholars and historians would think he was worthy of mentioning. It wasn't until half a century after his death that he really gained notoriety. It's sort of a logical circle.

Tom Hiddleston maybe?

He is not mentioned anywhere outside Biblical sauces. You'd expect a man who did all the miracles the Gospels claim he has to be more famous than that.

Possible, although you underestimate the number of homegrown messianic Judaic cults in the area at the time and their influence.

Are we /lit/ now?

>one day you WILL face him and have to answer for your treachoury.

sounds kinky. What will he do to me?

not my lord

He'll gangbang you with Jim Morrison. Then you have to guess who's who.

0/10

>changed the course of history

Such a dumb phrase. History only has one course. The course that happened.

What you seem to feel during church is cult paranoia, Stockholm Syndrome. It preys amongst the weaker minds.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_schizophrenia

Okay then why aren't we still Zoroastrians?

>Page 67 of Bart Ehrman's "Did Jesus Exist"

He is mentioned outside biblical sources though, there are 3 or 4 roman mentions of him,.

Later inserts by Christian scholars.

>THE GOD who wasn't there

actually deep line and it applies to all religionists.

He we are as autists. And no one is helping us, even though God could easily help us. Instead he creates disabled children and earthquakes.

jesus has changed the world more than any autistic """"scientist"""" ever could. a couple of years from now no one will remember Einstein but jesus' name will continue to be remembered for millennium to come. Tell me again he doesnt exist? Plus, if you believe he does not exist? why spend so much time shilling your degeneracy on others lying that he doesnt exist? You are pathetic. If you were near me i would beat the ever living daylights out of you. Ill say again, one day, you WILL see him and have to answer for your betrayal of christ.

Read them and then tell me how compelling they are really are.

One of is a forgery and the others may not not even be referring to him specifically

except that's not true there are infinite universes and the non-jesus ones are terrible

>capitalizes everything but Jesus
>him instead of Him
>christ

Brava user.

god is more important than mankind's "jesus" fable

Cross from the Egyptian Book of the Dead

jesus will continue to be remembered, but his mythology is changing every century.

Right now we're in the "hippy jesus"-phase. Everyone forgets that Jesus had a passionate rage against fornicators.

>believing Hebrew myth-history
>worshipping the Jewish messiah
>placing your faith in Yahweh, the one God of the Hebrew people

(You)

He also hated figs

Remember how he made the fig tree wither cause he was mad it didn't have any fruit for him?

Why do you guys have to be so degenerate?

i mean, for fucks sake, you are grown ups..

Jesus dined with thieves and prostitutes.

That's an ankh fuck face

Contrarian

god isn't real. when you die you won't go to heaven

It was a metaphor for the religious ruling class.

that's cool with me, figs are gross anyhow

...

>implying that it looks nothing like the cross of Christianity
Did you even look at the image? The Ancient Egyptians drew their Ankh with spread out arms

...

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Don't reply to me ever again

You need to read Christ in Egypt though. That properly explains the Jesus/Horus connection compared to that picture

>Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up must come down, down. down. Amen!

jesus did not agree with the thief and prostitute life. He was preaching to them. And these people were often contrite and ashamed about their lifestyles.

there's a huge difference. If these people were thieving and prostituting in front of his face, he would rage.

...

ITT: degenerate atheists try to spread their nonsense
Jesus existed. Billions of people have felt the power of Him. Try going to church for once and actually taking it seriously instead of choosing to be retarded on purpose like all atheists are. Spend a weekend at church and I bet all of the edgy 13 year old non believers ITT will be devout Christians come Friday

Not even joking, do people seriously believe Jesus never existed?

>please guys I am brain washed so just allow yourself to be brain washed as well.

That's not what happened when he saved a woman accused of adultery. That's not what happened when he met the woman at the well who was shacking up with some dude.
That's not what happened when he picked Judas to be a disciple.
That's not what happened when he told Zacchias, a corrupt official, that he was dining at his house that night.

That's not what happened when a woman started to wash his feet with her hair in front of of everyone

That's not what happened when he told the thief on the cross 'today you will be with me in paradise'

spent 16 years going to church, I'm done

The best answer is: we're not sure and we'll never find out. Probably a mix of John the Baptist and other preachers and messianic figures around Palestine at the time, one of them undoubtedly named Yehoshua.

Bingo, this user is correct

But there's better evidence for it than thousands of other historical happenings that people just take for granted as having happened.

>That's not what happened

great catch phrase, but you said nothing that contradicted what I said.

Have you read the thread? Most people are saying he probably did, though with some exaggeration, but it isn't 100% verifiable, which is a pretty healthy attitude to take isn't it?

Such as? And define "better evidence"

Those are all examples of Jesus encountering thieves and fornicators and accepting them. It's not like he told them to come back after they got their act together.

were not even 100% sure Alexander the Great was real and there is more evidence for him than Jesus

Where will i go?

You don't actually expect modern day """Christians""" to actually follow in His teachings do you? American neo-protestants are especially hateful in his regard.

You didn't even accurately portray the events you described. I have almost zero confidence in your conclusions.

It's people like you who constantly change the mythology of Jesus.

Your mother will die in her sleep tonight and there is literally nothing you can do to save her, no immunity nor any remark will save her.

Repent now or she will burn in hell.

>it's a smartass throws the largest religion in the world under the bus and strawmans billions of real human people and their philosophy to feel smart episode

The Church and Scripture. Why do you ignore such a huge body of evidence?

On the flip side, why do you trust the historians that say Alexander the Great existed? Because they weren't Christians? Being pagans made them more reliable historians?

>united europe
Have you actually READ anything about Europe?

Show me that space exists.

...

Did me making that troll post yesterday saying Socrates never actually existed trigger you guys this much? Neat.

>dude historical manuscripts don't count because they're evidence of something I don't choose to believe in! I literally have to insist everything's a giant lie instead of simply choosing not be religious because I don't want to think I make choices!

These are Christians, user.

>You don't actually expect modern day """Christians""" to actually follow in His teachings do you?

Of course not, but the biggest problem is people like you. You confuse preaching to thieves and prostitutes as identical to "accepting the thief and prostitute" lifestyle.

This single miscommunication alone has killed Christianity more than anything else.

I was paraphrasing.

Well the gospels can be thought of as "semi" historical documents I think, they're the closest things to the time Jesus was alive, but there's no doubting they have an agenda to push, and the fact that there is conflict between them as to the timeline and occurrence of events shows that this isn't one solid block evidence, but one assembled together in varying stages.

On the Alexander the Great point, the archeological evidence alone vastly outweighs that of Jesus.

It doesn't matter if Socrates existed or nor, since his existence has no bearing on his ideas. It matters if Jesus existed or not(we don't know if he did) because the entire concept of Christianity is reliant on it.

All I see you do is shit on others for not being believers. How Christian of you.

I'm from Eastern Europe, that image is kinda familiar.

If you want to to the archaeological route, there is 0 evidence for the existence of Jesus.

All you godless souls will be punished for your vile transgressions, I promise you that.

It would seem that according to people here, everyone in the whole written history of the world EXCEPT for Christian monks were reliable sources

And who are you to impart judgment and fire?

Still no proof from anyone ITT that space exists and isn't a made up bullshit story by "scientists".

Who said anything about me?

Your judgment will come from the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

How do I know you exist and I'm not just hallucinating a retard's shitposting?

There is literally a church built on top of where Jesus's tomb was in Jerusalem.

Except for contemporary money with his face and name on it. Various generals in his army founding dynasties in the places they travelled to. Contemporary structures built with his name etched into them. Dozens of cities named after him during his life. The Babylonian royal diary mentioning the exact date of his death. The document from Bactria announcing his arrival.

And you speak for Him or you claim to know His mind or His will?

Yeah, haha, no. It's a fake. We don't know hose tomb is that. People fought for the Spear of Longinus for centuries, it's been proven to be a simple 9th century lance.

it's not about shitting on non-believers. It's about maintaining the original mythology.

Jesus is something completely different today. His old testament ethics have slowly transformed to current christianity's full acceptance of sin and "don't judge me" culture. I would say Jesus is almost a psuedo-atheistic figure now. It's very captivating.

no one wrote about alexander during his life. only after.

Well Jerusalem was pretty much destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. As Jesus said it would be. A good amount of the evidence might have been wiped out.

Where followers of the religion that deifies him says his tomb was located.

Like the coins, right? But I'm sure all those corroborating sauces are all wrong just so you can prove Jesus was real.

Both the Babylonian diary and administrative record from Bactria are contemporary. Google it famalam.

If you don't believe in the holy pilgrimage sites and the holy relics of the Church, then what will further digging in the ground do to persuade you?

They are sources, but theyre very biased sources, and whilst pretty much everything around this will be biased in some way or another I don't think it's unreasonable to look for corroborating evidence.

shut up you dumb cunt
The only reason the sun rose this morning is because I sacrificed a goat

If we can let NASA get away with losing most of the information about the moon missions in less than a century, I think it's pretty darn acceptable to believe that evidence about Jesus vanished within 2,000 years.

what the fuck? there are no primary sources about Alexander you fucking loony bin nutjob.

ITT: THAT'S NOT REEEEAL PROOF

>ITT Khazars who are trying to cover up the fact that Jesus was actually named YAKKUB and he was a black man

Are you retarded? After what the Church did all throughout the Middle Ages, selling and showing relics like circus memorabilia?

Also, the Holy Sepulcher is wrong. The church was built outside the city walls as they were in 1027, however, archaeological data show that it was placed well inside the city walls as they were in tthe time of Jesus. Jews did not bury their dead inside a city, it was unclean. It's a fake.

At one point in the 16th century, 8 separate churches in mainland Europe claimed to have the head of John the Baptist. Relics mean nothing most of the time.

Come here and I'll fuck your gayboy mouth fuckstick.

>I can't handle your logic

Bandage dresses are a curse on humanity. I've been bamboozled by them twice irl. You take an 8/10 home and when she's out of her dress she quickly jumps under the covers and wants the light off because she doesn't want you to see she's actually a 5/10 that was being held together though Satanic warlock dress magic.

religious people are retarded. spam me with pics of le funny hat man but you know it's true. all the "christians" on this site are just doing the contrarian bullshit that Cred Forums is known for at this point.

Are you so weak-willed that you can't just commit to being non-religious without trying to dismantle religion? How much information and history do you throw away to deceive yourself that your choice of philosophy isn't simply a choice?

>jesus exists because the bible says so

>space exists because my textbook said so

wrong thread m80?

I obviously accidentally posted that in the wrong thread, but just act like I was talking about the fake Shroud of Turin.

How could someone who never existed have such a huge impact on history?

It doesn't even go that far

>Jesus exists because, although I have never read the Bible and I never will, my ultraconservative parents and my Sunday school pedofag tell me so

No one is dismantling religion. Believe what you want. But once Christians claim that Jesus was a historical figure they open themselves up to that kind of analysis.

On a related note, who'd you rather fuck, Mary or Mary Magdalene?

good writers

you're right. why believe in something so blindly unless you see it for yourself?

Excellent marketing

This. Stop whitewashing history you white devils.

>See; Muslims being, quite literally at times, violently opposed to any non Muslim looking into the historicity of Islam and Muhammad.

I never understood the "well Socrates didn't exist either!" meme when Xenophon and Aristophanes also wrote about him. The existence of the latter as a source (namely satire/comedy) is even more proof for me that Socrates undoubtedly existed.

>how can the pagan gods not have existed when they had such a huge impact on history?

Mary Magdalene, she probably knew how to ride a dick.

For what purpose? None of the Apostles gained anything from it. They all died brutal deaths for someone they allegedly made up.

>Apostles
they didn't write the bible you fucking retard.

We have Muhammad mentioned in numerous ERE documents. Some Persian ones too I think. Yes, contemporary, as in, he was still alive.

Oh, and Muslims would possibly kill you for denying the existence of Jesus. It is their last prophet before Muhammad.

Everywhere God's people went pagan gods fell. They clearly weren't real.

>he thinks christianity started with jesus and the apostles

Christianity didn't start until decades after they lived

Who did?

Unlike the Christian God, that is completely real and that's why 4 out of the 5 Patriarchies of the Christian Pentarchy are now and have been for 500, 800, 900 and 1400 years respectively under non-Christian rule.

Not to mention that no one ever called him Jesus nor Christ. Those are Greek terms.

There is no J letter in the Jewish alphabet

You're arguing with someone who rolled quads.

We don't know. Some of them are attributed(at least rewrites) to Paul. Paul who basically reinvented Christianity. I' argue he is more important than Jesus to the religion, but that's a different subject.

You have to understand, people back then wrote things and attributed them to other people, it was considered fine.

who /deism master race/ here?

Is there a rule that whoever gets quads, their statement is true?

I don't think so

That's the point... it would be absurd not to believe in anything. There is nothing wrong with faith and lots of tippers have yet to realize that their "knowledge" of science is mostly just "BELIEF" in so-called acclaimed scientists.

Now I am not saying I don't believe in science or that I even believe in god. But you need to realize that calling faith stupid and archaic is just foolish.

>The Gospels don't count because I don't believe them lmao

Christian conversions didn't happen through osmosis. It was done by the sword or forced upon populations by those in power because they were enticed by the immense wealth of the Church.

you didn't get dubs so i won't respond to you

Do you believe the Qu'ran? Or the Talmud? Or any of the Greek Mysteries?

The first gospel was written 40 years after he supposedly died. Not really a reliable source.

Paul was an Apostle and new Peter and the others personally. We know from his writings that the Apostles were real people.

>Christian conversion happened by the sword
Worst b8 I've ever read
Don't believe the Qur'an or Greek myths, but what you said isn't an argument. You can't dismiss something as evidence just because you already decided you don't believe it
>Hurr there's no sources which describe Jesus as a regular man so that means he didn't exist
This makes no sense at all

>forced
>enticed

Pick one dumb faggot. There is nothing wrong with a religion coming in and making your life better and you converting to them for that reason.

The trial lasted 40 days.

Heil Cezar.

Paul was not an Apostle, not one of the original 12, he never met Jesus.

>We know from his writings that the Apostles were real people
I wasn't arguing they weren't real you idiot, I was saying they didn't write the Gospels.

>Implying Jesus hasn't been reborn and isn't living here.... Now

You know which Apostle I don't believe actually existed?

Ringo.

The populations were forced. The leaders were enticed.

faith in space is easier than faith in jesus because at night you can actually see the stars

yes there is, have you been living under a rock?

>Hurr there's no sources which describe Jesus as a regular man so that means he didn't exist

No, there's no sources on Jesus' miracles or his life so we don't know if he existed or not. If the Gospels are automatically 100% valid sauces, so is the Qu'ran and the Talmud.

So people were forced to have better lives? The nerve of Christianity!!!

Are they stars? Can you prove that? Can you show me one up close so I know it isn't just a fabricated light? Or perhaps it's one of the angels lighting the way for souls to reach heaven. Not like you have a single shred of actual proof that would prove either beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Don't worry user, my Japanese animes have made me love Gilgamesh.

Only children and deluded people think hero myths are real. Literally anyone can make up bullshit and people will believe it. Just look at Scientology.

yes. one star is actually very close to is and it allows for all life to exist. we call it the Sun. a real Sun that you can feel the heat from, not a mythical son.

Low thetan beta

>forced conversion don't real
>Charlemagne didn't execute 4500 Saxon pow's during the Saxon Wars for refusing to convert
>the Spanish didn't forcibly convert remaining Muslims to convert under threat of exile or execution
>after the Constantinian shift the Roman empire didn't outlaw pagan worship with penalty for practice being imprisonment or death
Sure thing, bud.

>Implying he doesn't live on in the hearts of meme spouting faggots on the internet saying GIRUGAMESH

>I follow my history from pop culture: the post

There are just too many holes in this argument. I can't even

>attest to feeling the power of christ

Billions of people attest to feeling the power of Allah when they pray too.

It takes so much more mental gymnastics to assume Jesus didn't exist than to just accept the extremely plausible idea that there was a Jewish man who started preaching an offshoot religion.

Name one.

Wow that sure is proof. Just kidding, the heat you feel is actually from Jesus' spirit. Prove me wrong.

The people who deny the existence of Jesus at all are just exceptionally butthurt, there's as much historical evidence of him as there is most famous people of the classical era

> If the Gospels are automatically 100% valid sauces, so is the Qu'ran and the Talmud.

That's not how that works. They have to be judged individually on their own merits. Especially since they disagree on various matters.

>Apostles were real
Why is it completely plausible that 12 men got together and decided to make up a religion about a non-existent man, but not plausible that one men decided to make a religion about himself and converted 12 people?

Your position is so laughably ideologically driven.

They have all been written at least 40 years after the lifetime of Jesus by people who never met him.

>judged individually on their own merits

Which is really really difficult for a roughly two thousand year old piece of work.

Idiot. None of them were alive anymore around the time the Gospels were written. Either address this point or fuck off.

John is the only one that could have possibly been one of the apostles.

it's god's spirit. jesus is mankind's metaphor for the Sun

John was his best friend and disciple. Matthew, a disciple. Mark has a brief cameo in his gospel. Luke travelled with Paul, who met Him.

>written at least 40 years after the lifetime of Jesus
How can we be sure this is accurate?

Why do you argue so hard that Jesus didn't exist, but you don't care whether the apostles did? What is it about Jesus that you NEED to prove he didn't exist, even though the logical thing is to assume he did?

I thought Superman was our Sun?

BECAUSE I WAS THERE! IT'S TRUE, ALL OF IT!

Fear

More like our wife's Sun.

good point. after we nuke ourselves stories will survive about Zack Snyder's Superman movies. thus taking the place of the last Sun metaphor

accept kal into your heart

Who's Batman in DCianity?

I wonder how people had sex back then. Did people even do oral? I wouldn't have wanted to since the hygiene back then was horrible

The Christian message was being preached decades before any gospel was written down. Do you see? The message wasn't based on the gospels. The gospels were based on the message.

The reason it took so long to codify the gospels was because they were busy preaching in synagogues and founding communities. They also expected Jesus back any day, so it took a while for people to realize that writing the gospels down were even necessary.

All that aside, in terms of historical dating, the documents were remarkably close to their events, compared to say, Tertullian, who appeared centuries after the events he wrote down.

The Dark Knight. The Caped Crusader. The Devil Who Converted.

Romans and Greeks were total degenerates and did the same shit we do.
Jews fucked through holes in sheets.

>Jews fucked through holes in sheets
Really? So glory holes are a jewish invention?

>Really?
They still do that, you know. The Abrahamic faiths fear women, vaginas and sex with anything that isn't a goat like it was deadly.

I never said otherwise. Point is, there was a 40 year gap between the writings and the initial teachings. 40 years of folktales(read up on those, they're fucking crazy) piling up on each other until the man himself is myth. I actually suspect Yehoshua never proclaimed himself to be divine, that came up later.

im sure they had a bucket of water nearby that you could use to rinse a smelly vagina out with. some probably liked to eat a smelly muff

>try to eat her muff
>get crabs in your beard and mustache

Obviously the word of mouth preaching came before the written gospels. Nobody is saying Christianity spontaneously sprung out of the ether. That doesn't mean that Jesus was a single historical figure.

John the Baptist was actually more important to very early Christians.

>Don't have to pay for crab legs and can just pick your snack out of your beard when you go to the slave fights later that day

Everybody wins!

>you know why he shaved his beard right?

The hole in the sheet thing is a meme. None of the major branches of Judaism mention it.

Again, 40 years is nothing compared to the gap between other sources and the events they chronicle, which are accepted by scholars with less controversy than the appearance of Christianity. A 40 year gap is very, very accurate from the standpoint of historical analysis.

Yeah, and Mormons don't wear magic anti-demon underweat and Scientologists don't believe in Lord Xenu. Sure thing man, we're all good goyim here, we all fear pussies too.

You got a source beyond Curb Your Enthusiasm?

40 years is a fucklong time for the most desolate and backwater province of the Roman Empire in the 1st century AD. That's 2 generations, literally. Never mind that between Jesus and the writing lies the most scarring event the Jews have faced in 6 centuries.

>eat out Mary Magdalene
>go to the slave fights with my crab bitez™ in my beard
>Roberticus the nubian crab leg vendor forces me to shave my beard because no outside food allowed

>le Mormon magic underwear meme

Proof that people on here care nothing for truth, only memes.

Educate yourself:
en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_temples/Garments

Kek

>The people who deny the existence of Jesus at all are just exceptionally butthurt, there's as much historical evidence of him as there is most famous people of the classical era
Trips confirm

We have less evidence that Shakespeare and Socrates existed

Now you're just being a contrarian. The province was connected by road and by coast. There was a church is Rome before the end of the first century.

Anyway my point is: Historical analysis is not perfect but thw gospels as historical documents actually hold up a lot better than most others.

Sure you could claim some resemblance but the cross wasn't the holy sign of Christianity. The fish was, once Catholicism was created the Romans adopted the cross as a sign for Christianity

They work very fine as a collection of folktales about the life and times of Jesus and that's about it. And they were written and rewritten and most of them were cut out.

>The province was connected by road and by coast
It was a backwards shithole mayne.

"Christian" Bale. kek.

What I'm getting at is that
1. The Gospels are EARLY by any historical measurement
2. There's evidence that precedes the gospels, such as fragments of a common source from which Mark and Matthew were coded, archeological sites of early Christian communities founded in the first century, etc

Jesus birthday is celebrated in December because it took the place of an ancient Roman holiday. Not because it birthday was on that day.

Not to mention that Matthew and Luke borrow heavily from Mark. So half of the sources are just rewrites of an earlier version. It's all too self referential to be trusted.

Well, that is your dogmatic belief, then. I guess there's nothing I can say to that.

that is exactly what that picture says

I bet people will be debating whether or not George Washington existed a thousand years from now. If evidence of something goes missing does that mean the thing itself ceases to be real? Not really an argument but it makes you think.

It's not 'self referential', it's communities of people working together to compute data. Just like all the other information we have about everything.

Not really a point. It's coincidence. It took the place of a Roman holiday free from an egyption influence.

There seems to be a malfunction going on in here. What part of "none of the people who met him wrote them" flies over your head?

Let's assume that is true. That would put the writers of the Gospel in the same boat as all other writers of Antiquity.

Yet we're not sitting around arguing about Sophocles.

>all other writers

Nope.

Josephus wrote in the same timeframe as the gospels were being developed. What makes him a better source?

This.
Also, Erhman is suggesting that historians have every single document and story from ancient civilizations at their fingertips. Couldn't their have been historical documents about Christ that were lost or destroyed? Seems like that idea never crossed his mind.

There*

The documents are evidence of a pre-existing tradition. The pre-existing tradition is the primary evidence, not the documents.

underrated

>Rome changed their official religion to a guy they crucified as a hoax

atheists actually believe this

There's literally more evidence for the gospels than there are for the original, unedited pre-special edition Star Wars trilogy.

dumb asses who can't look shit up for them self's
and takes the word of others
just like the sheeple normies they think there not

>Jesus
>god
Half god at best.
Also, why do Christians get so butthurt about the implication that Jesus might not have been real but another story full of allegories like Adam and Eve?
Would it make his message wrong or somehow not worth listening to?

I agree. What I mean is, Ehrman is discounting the traditions as fact because of a lack of documents that corroborate the tradition. I'm saying that there are/were documents that probably directly referenced Jesus and his impact on the traditions. It's wrong to assume that just because we don't have primary sources from the 1St century, none ever existed.

Well, we're talking about different genres of writing here. Adam and Eve is intentionally symbolic and mystical. The gospels have an element of factuality to them. They are set within history. They contain references to real people, places, and events. Which is not to say that they are purely a historical accounting, they have theological depth as well.

It's also equally wrong to assume they existed without any evidence.

There's a myth that Trayvon dindu nothin and was a good boy.

There's a myth that Joseph Smith read magic tablets.

There's a myth that Alexander and Diogenes actually met.

There's a myth that Japan has frog monster people that die when they spill the water from their heads.

There's a myth that L Ron Hubbard was more than just an incompetent navy officer and hack scifi writer.

People make shit up

Actually, there are fragments of pre-existing documents. And the documents themselves are just the finished result of a long process. The existence of the gospels presupposes the existence of earlier documents. Heck, Luke and Acts are a personal letter. He's drawing from other sources.

I agree, it's negligent for Erhman not to consider all this.

But people didn't make up the apostolic church, and that the church was very serious about what they were doing, and that it was founded by people who knew Jesus personally, and believed sincerely in what they saw and heard.

You can deny that Jesus ever lived all you want, but it's really, really, really hard to deny that there were people who believed that they met him.

What about the story of Moses then? Does it matter then?
Not to mention faith and religion in general are hardly based on facts. So whether or not a tale of a martyr actually happened is of little importance.

People don't separate the ideas that "Jesus existed" and "Jesus is God." Therefore they hold a higher standard of proof for his existence than other figures in history, whereas there's absolutely no risk at all "taking it on faith" that Christopher Columbus existed.

Personally I don't think you need evidence of Jesus' existence to know he's not God.

Kook

I don't think that there's any strictly historical basis for Moses, but there certainly is for Jesus.

There's historical basis for David and the major OT prophets.

He's mentioned in Seutonious and Tacitus as the leader of a small cult.

homoerotic as fuck

Makes me hard as fuck thinking about pilate ordering jesus to be whipped

>Not to mention faith and religion in general are hardly based on facts. So whether or not a tale of a martyr actually happened is of little importance.

That's true for some stories and for some parts of the Bible, but the core of Christian message is that the Ressurection really happened.

Read the sacred mushroom and the cross by John Marco Allegro and you'll see that there is nothing edgy about not buying that Jesus existed

Not edgy, just ill-informed. Possibly self-deluded.

Only small-minded smartasses who are afraid teacher might give them a bad grade for getting an answer wrong can't see the value in choosing to believe something is real.

Lol gr8 b8 m8

Why does Cred Forums talk about anything other than film and television

What about Peter and Matthew and Mark? And what of Paul, who had encounters at least one of these men?