Pro-Labor Thread

Pro-Labor Thread

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finance.yahoo.com/news/states-dependent-federal-government-180735773.html
politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jan/26/blog-posting/red-state-socialism-graphic-says-gop-leaning-state/
youtube.com/watch?v=j4_tyEl84IQ

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Most people on here are working people, not business owners. We should be proud of how we contribute to society.

Your posting on a board filled with people who can't differentiate between socialism, communism, and government subsidies. I mean. both sides refer to Bernie as a "socialist"

Actually, most of the people on here are kids or unemployed. They like to pretend they’re business owners to experience looking down on others. Because they don’t feel that in real life. It’s like cosplay for them.

It’s so bizarre that some people on here shill for billionaires and capitalists when they aren’t well off themselves.

Which ones? The ones who shill for millionaires who promote subsidy programs that ultimately only help the rich and are accused of being socialist or those who promote a millionaire that states he's the ultimate capitalist but is the only one with policies consistent with pro-socialist ideals.

Speak for yourself. I make a good salary at a job that it took me a long time to get, and I don't need some fucking retard ruining everything because he thinks he deserves profit sharing and stock options for pushing some buttons on a register.

You literally produce more value than you are compensated for through your salary. This applies to any worker, not just clerks.

I don't care. I make more than enough money and my job is frankly not that hard. I don't have the slightest idea how to run a large-scale operation like the one I work for and I don't want the headache, so if the guy who does run things makes more money in a year than I will ever see in my lifetime, good for him; he deserves it. I'm happy enough to just show up for work, worry only about the work I need to worry about, take my pay and go home. If the pay is no longer worth it for the work I can do something else.

If the operation was taken over by workers or government the value would plummet because you'd have idiots who don't understand how to run a business in charge. An unequal share of a huge pie works out better than an equal share of a much smaller one.

>I don't care

This is a argument.

you wouldn't be able to if it weren't for that employer. their design, their equipment, they foot the operations costs, and so on. you can earn a better salary or create your own business in capitalism however.

The fuck does this even mean?

This all the way the owners take the risk. I'm amazed that in a society that you have the ability to move your social class how many people just cry life isn't handed to them.

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Name one time socialist or Communist rule has been anything other than forced slavery or mass genocide?

it's usually an indicator that they were spoiled children that lived off their parents or don't pay taxes. want to reform a commie, make them pay taxes for people that refuse to work. seen IRL so many times.

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Salvador Allende

fidel che

this is actually how communism works in practice. in capitalism you can make your own bread, sell it, and hire people to do it for you with the profits.

Yeah no joke mommy and daddy handed me everything so now this is what I expect from life. Never any self accountability, nor do the understand that when a gov takes from one person to give to another the gov gets control of both people

you poor sap, student loans and credit card debts are forced slavery methods of capitalism

I come from a working class background and I’m a communist.

you are retarded wqanna be slave owner. If you even think about "hiring" someone then you are a capitalist pig and a slave owner unless you're not gonna pay them as much or even bigger as you will get from their own labor. Bosses are like media holdings, useless and parasites.

You're fucking kidding right? He ruined a nation after fucking it over

>Can't be helped
Help me

The argument is that the supposed surplus value is better spent by people who know how to run complex operations which employ him rather than by a workers' committee made up of people who only know their own jobs.

But you can choose to not get into those traps. In other places you don't get a choice and if you're born poor you will always be poor end of story. You can't start a business or invent your way out of poverty for your labor belongs to the state

Frankly social mobility is wasted on most people anyway. Someone else gets ahead and they see it as the system being rigged or unfair because it would never occur to them to do the things that made that person wealthy. Even simple money management is beyond them. Most of the people bitching about >muh 1% are just wageslave retards who wake up half-drunk, go put in a few hours at Starbucks, take their paycheck and spend it on booze and restaurant food and other degenerate bullshit, then go home to their overpriced city apartments and whine on the internet about how they don't have any money and its everyone's fault but theirs. Any sane society would just enslave people like that and send them off to some far-away salt mine, or better yet just let them starve. Feudalism needs to make a comeback.

Why should the majority of the surplus be reinvested into public services? Why shouldn’t the workers be able to vote in and recall the experts who get paid slightly more to manage the more complex tasks?

Thank god for those labels OP, otherwise I never would have figured this one out.

You fucking idiot. 'Surplus value' gets taken back into the firm's treasury. A cut goes to the owners/managers for properly organizing the whole thing. A cut goes to labor. A cut goes to taxes and utilities. A cut goes to materials. A cut gets saved for a rainy day. A cut gets reinvested.

But the cut that goes to the bosses is way too big.

Guess who takes the big bag? The elite (me).

Guess who gets the tiny bag? Laborers.

Guess who didn't go to college? Laborers.

Guess who went to college and knows economics, has diverse vested interests, and hires illegals to undercut your wages? Me.

You're so stupid, you vote for the anti-union GOP to further fuck yourselfs. I LOVE IT!!!! No minimum wage, illegals I can hire for even less than your lazy asses, and the finished product is something I can sell almost an 70% net profit sans labor/materials.

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Fuck off

Fuck you, you didn't pay for materials, you didn't contract the operation, you didn't hire, you didn't engineer the build.
all you did was was hammer some frames together or work a crane you lazy fuck.

you be grateful we didn't fire your meth-abusing ass.

>Shouldn't [sic] ... public services
Economic calculation problem. I could say every one in the ghetto should get free healthcare, until their population and violent crime explodes from my policy detached from reality.
>Why shouldn’t the workers be able to vote in and recall the experts
Profit signals are the best indicator of what makes a good manager. Averae workers have no sense of who or what makes a good manager, and they would vote for managers who give them more and more at the firm's expense until the firm is insolvent and they are all unemployed.

The simple fact is big brains do big things. People like you get a "back injury" and get addicted to oxy's and go on welfare for the rest of your lives.

I work 60 hours a week for some stockholder sits around doing shit. Fuck you.

How do you determine "too big"?

Lol and you spend your free time on Cred Forums? Yeah you are definitely part of the elite lol

So CEOs deserve 1000x more than us? We can’t ask them to simply make 10x more than us?

what else am I going to do? sit around and be unemployed like you? I'm retired you fatass. I put in my 30 years, made my fortune.

Because business isn't a democracy? Because workers aren't paid for their input or their opinions, they're paid to do a job, and if they don't want to do it for the pay they're offered they can quit?

"I don't care" is a perfectly good argument here. Leave it to a commie to need to be spoonfed on how markets work.

Labor is a commodity and belongs to the worker. The worker is free to sell his labor at whatever price he likes. If an employer offers a price and the worker thinks the price is fair, then there's nothing else to be said; the worker is getting what he considers fair value in return for his labor. Seriously kid, try reading a book on basic economics in between bong hits sometime.

moreover with the Dow and S&P500 going gangbusters, my money works for me, not some Podunk hillbilly retards.

Back to the wage gap in the 50s.

I wish the US became a Communist country so I could do the bare minimum and still get paid. My only fear is that they always ban weed when communism comes into power ffs...

There is honor in Labor!

Eat the rich.

Yeah ok pal. Say high to your mother for me when you go upstairs to heat up your next hot pocket

Believing labor power is a commodity is a Marxist economic belief.

Yes. Why does the surgeon make 10000x the orderly? Education, and a massive investment in skills.

You don't have the brains/education or skills to do what the real estate investor/engineer/contractor does. You're utterly retarded.

it takes money to make money, retard.

It's well-known why poor whites vote against their own interests.

Y

BINGO

These laborers have a communist mindset. I'd gas them all. They're so undereducated, they don't know the filthy they spew is virtually 1:1 with Marx.

So? How does that negate any of what I've said?

because you're woefully stupid.
>muh white nationalism!
keep clinging to your guns and bible geeter.

I'm going to continue getting richer, and richer and richer.

No, FUCK YOU, you fucking pig. All you "bosses" are doing is just sitting your fat ass whole day in your offices you lazy ugly fat bastards.

A surgeon doesn’t make 10000x the average worker. They make 10x. The average doctor makes 300,000, whereas a working class job makes around 30k.

The only people making 10000x are people who own big businesses or inherited it.

So figure it out faggot, do you have any idea the effort and sacrifice that went into starting my company? My employees, on the other hand, call off regularly (with very few exceptions), take vacations, clock out at 5pm and do not work after that point, put their families first, and actively see me (their employer) as a greedy monster because of shit like this. None of this is really a problem, unless people like you convince them that they deserve more than their fair share. I get more because I put more in, I sacrificed more, so I get a larger piece of the pie, and there is nothing wrong with that. And if they demanded more as a group, I would absolutely close my company, fire the lot of them, and restart my company with all new employees.

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>trump maga kill socialists!
>durrrr ur a commie!

>become a commie....

? :O

WOW. The GOP has jumped the HORSE.

This.
>I'm a software engineer
>I get paid well
>I'm okay with this
>My bosses are not software engineers
>They get paid better
>I'm okay with this
What I do with code, they do with employees, contractors, vendors, and jurisdictions on a higher level. They also work insane hours in a far more competitive, cut-throat environment. The lowest level of management gets paid 1.25x more than a senior engineer, for maybe 3x the stress. Our CEO's salary is over 200x that of a senior engineer, and 80% of the man's waking life is work; his stress is probably 1000% that of my own.

That’s illegal

Of course you produce more value than what you're paid for. Are you suggesting the boss should pay you the exact same value he gets from your work? Are you clearly that retarded, or you have just not a single notion of how a business works?

Let me spell it for you :
>Boss have business.
>Business main goal is to produce money.
>To produce money, business generates value and then converts it into money.
>To produces value, boss hires employee.

I'm going to assume you already comprehend at the very least this much.
Here's the bit you seem to willingly forget :
>employee generates value thanks to his skill, combined with all the tools the boss provided to his employee (means of production, locals, training courses, others)
>the tools acts as catalysts, meaning the employee wouldn't be able to generate value without them
>one month has passed, the employee have generated X amount of value, which is going to be converted (hopefully) in X amount of money
>if the boss gives to his employee a salary = X then the boss don't get a single benefit for hiring the employee in the first place
>but he wants money, that's why he created the business in the first place
>he then take a portion of X, so he can pay the charges of the business, reinvest a percentage of it in the business, and the leftovers will go in his pocket
>this is his salary

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I paid for materials, I engineered the design, I contracted out the job, I invested millions to get the job done. Damn right I get to sit on my ass.

No get to work, or I'll make sure you never work again -- is what I'd say to your welfare-stealing ass, if you "worked" for me.

This is why your kind will always be poor.

Arbitrary.

how much of that giant bag of money is required to create infrastructure? To create the conditions that allow workers to work? How much of that was spent beforehand to create business relations to allow it to work.
The margins of profit people think owners make is nowhere near as big as they think.

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It was easier back then in terms of wages. Now everything is shit.

I'm making a point through dramatics.
Only autistics take EVERYTHIGN literally.

Thankfully in my city the working class makes 100k+. Even laborers. But we don't tolerate stupidity.

As long as I properly file the paperwork, and pay all required fees associated, I can close my business number through end of business at any time, and as long as the new name is a new trademark, I can open the identical company under another name if I want. There is nothing illegal about it.

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I have not mentioned Trump, MAGA or the GOP once during this entire exchange. You sound like a literal teenager. If you're not going to respond to any of my points or make any of your own then I'm finished with this silly thread. Have fun at work kid, try not to drool in anyone's fries.

Any european country.

How much did Bezos make in the last week? How much does he pay in taxes? Why do working class people have to pay taxes while the rich skirt them?

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in his defense who shakes lefthandedly?

Replace '[software] engineer' with 'surgeon' and you'll understand. Most surgeons don't want to- or can't- run corporations which own dozens of hospitals.

you weren't allive back then. people died from the common cold.

you're 18, everything is "shit" because you voted for a retard. and got him. no get no worker protection, no decent wages, no consumer protection, that were all given to Americans under Democrats.

The GOP says "No Minimum Wage!". Trump touts millions of jobs created. And they were created. Sadly most of them pay $5 per hour. Enjoy!!

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You were wrong and now are backpedaling. And nowhere in the US does everyone make 100k+.

I dont think niggers should be allowed to own property or inherit wealth.

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I didn’t vote for him. I just voted Bernie in the primary in 2016.

Huh?

Manhattan, LA, Seattle, San Fran, Portland. Yes, In the US's richest cities, everyone worthwhile makes 100k.

if you don't make the cut, you're forced out. But the minimum wages in those cities range from $15-$20, so if you can work, there's nothing stopping you but EXCUSES.

Nice larping faggot. It's Cred Forums, not a forum for a successful faggots.

>easier
In the 50s a greater percentage of people were working in farms who now would have been working in factories, and greater percentage of people were working in factories who would now have been working in the service sector. Any given person today is more likely to work for WalMart-type operation than a sweatshop or or farm. Don't BS me

I think all white conservatives should be deported. your kind are anti-American and have no place in America.
Something tells me that in my lifetime, we'll see white conservatives deported from my land.

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correlation doesn't equal causation son

That wealth isn't created by your labor. If your labor by itself could created that you'd do it in your own.

If you had invested all the money, came up with the busisness, organized and started it, assumed all risk, then yes those profits would be yours

Just like if you started a lemonade stand and hired someone to run it, no the guy running it wouldnt get all your money that you make off it.

This is infantile. I shouldn't have to explain this to any of you.

You are severely over estimating the manager class in our society. Your scenario is only applicable on small to medium businesses.

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These corporations shouldn't even exist.

>If you had invested all the money, came up with the busisness, organized and started it, assumed all risk, then yes those profits would be yours

Tell that to all the small businesses that wallmart destroyed.

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I'm with you bro. My country went to shit because the common worker was working less and less, and having more and more rights.
On the subject of "work", we're the laughing stock of the world!

I worked with a few basic Stacys that were just useless sacks of make-up, complaining about the work conditions (which were comfy as fuck) , salary (way higher that what they deserved), and hierarchy (way more qualified and professional people that they will ever be, with a very few exceptions). And they complained all day long because they know that if they get fired or even slighty punish for their lack of professionalism, the law is on their side.

Yes, you are indeed infantile if you think that is how the world works.

Who do you think own hospitals? A group of surgeons, you asshole. How do you survive, being this ignorant to the world?

There is literally nothing more pathetic than business owners.

Wow an actually good Cred Forums thread for once with an actually important message

inb4 wage-slaves defending their oppressors

My fear is they'll throw all the wrong thinkers into camps

If you are retarded, you like that pic.

Yes, because I expect to earn as much the man who employs me and thousands of others for doing basically nothing. You're an entitled faggot.

found the fast food employee

Im a mexican libertarian so thsts fine by me nigger as long as you or your aids ridden welfare whores stay out of my neighborhood.

Ok, if the person decides to be self employed, then three possibilities exist:
>self-employed agent gets paid less than the employer paid; the surplus value was overestimated
>self-employed agent gets paid the same as what the employer paid; the surplus value was estimated well
>self-employed agent gets paid more than what the employer paid; the surplus value was underestimated
This is an airtight test of your hypothesis.
>But self-employment is not viable for everyone because self-employed agents have to compete with firms which have economies of scale on their side
If so, then the employers weren't collecting 'surplus value' at all, but a cut for providing the financial and physical infrastructure which allows the employee's value to be viably operationalized in the first place.

Imagine being this retarded lmao

You're retarded if you think this is true. If it's so easy to run a business and exploit labour why don't you do it faggot?

The value of your labor is what you are able to sell it for - what the owner must pay in order to keep a competent labor force. If you don't like the wages offered, go somewhere else, or start your own business.

The value of the owner's goods are what he can sell them for.

Some of the very same people supporting management-labor ideologies also support open borders and illegal immigrants, which is part of the reason you can't get more money for your labor.

>Stonetoss
Kys

Allende's regime killed dissidents.

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I'm someone who have values.
Getting the just benefit of your work is one of them.
Don't worry, I don't expect you to understand.

>voluntary transactions
No.

wow. and here i thought that all americans are billionaires who are in temporary fiscal hardship .

define just benefit

You're not entitled to a damn thing you lazy bum. You're not the one who has invested thousands of dollars in a company and will lose thousands of dollars if it fails. You're not the one responsible for paying 10-10,000 peoples salaries yet you think you deserve to make the same wage? Ha! This is why you'll always be a poorfag.

It's insane how little people understand about the stress, work, and sacrifices that come with business ownership. "Business owners and CEO's are just evil men who turn workers into slaves and steal money from their customers." I just don't get it, it's crazy to even think this. I created an organization, and provide work and livelihoods for 130 people, all of who can afford to live off what we pay, why am I the bad guy? Fuck, I hate this fucking world right now.

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Based

The thread stopped right here. Now fuck off commie cunts

Cringe.

The Democrats want rampant illegal immigration, which takes away everything you say they worked for.

Your unskilled or semi-skilled job will be taken by an illegal immigrant who will work for a fraction of what you need. He will live in a communal setting and probably send a healthy chuck home.

>thinking socialists are communists
>not realizing that red states take 80% of all govt welfare money and farm subsidy money
>the money that red states take comes from blue states' taxes
>the money that blue states take from the govt comes from their own taxes, so it balances out.
>that's called Red State Socialism
>there's only been 1 successful red state in US history: Texas. CONSERVATISM HAS FAILED.

>Being this retarded

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>States take other states taxes
What?

Dude, want to come work for me?

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If I came up with an idea to make a profitable business, took the risk to build it from scratchs, and turn it into a success, I deserve a huge salary.
If I flip burgers, I deserve the bare minimum. Because I understand working as the lowest rank in a fast food joint doesn't require any skill in particular, and the moment I will step out of this job, someone else will replace me.

Obama deported 40% more illegals than trump.

Trump keeps his detained. And he does shit job at catching/deporting.

There's 0 evidence to what you're saying. In fact, there's evidence supporting Republicans wanting illegal immigration. Due to the fact that trump's KEEPING the immigrants, and Obama actually deporting them by the 10's of millions.

Its impossible to reach these retards comerade. Don't waste your time.

You should be proud of your contribution, but you also shouldn't be fucked

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Still forgetting that the big bag goes to infrastructure, taxes, purchase of materials to make product, any other miscellaneous overhead, marketing the product, shipment of product, and storage of product that hasn't been sold.

>having no response to the facts
>having to response to name-calling like trump, because you're not smart enough to defend your position with substance.

This right here, is a reality.

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Gonna be honest with you man : I held myself for creating my business for now 7 years because I didn't imagine myself bear all the responsabilities combined with having to deal with the employee force (which I talked about in my previous message). The risks just seem way too high for the possible reward.

But it's changing, I'm in the process of building my business. I wish you the best bro.

CEO's of 1000+ employees are not personally liable when it fails. In what kind of fantasy world do you live. Most CEO's of small companies arent even liable.

Red states rely on massive federal funding

SAD

finance.yahoo.com/news/states-dependent-federal-government-180735773.html

politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jan/26/blog-posting/red-state-socialism-graphic-says-gop-leaning-state/

GET A JOB REPUBLICAN FILTH!!!!

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>muh champion of labor

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Nobody has a problem with self made men, or small/medium sized business owners. But big corp CEO, higher management and shareholders are indeed pure evil.

Nor should they be, it's the laborer's fault when something catastrophic happens. usually they're drunk or high, and the cause of most accidents.

>CEO's of 1000+ employees are not personally liable
Wrong.

Directors and officers typically are considered to have a fiduciary duty to the company for which they serve - under U.S. law, a duty of care and a duty of loyalty, either of which, if breached, can subject the director to liability.

CEOs can have special fiduciary obligations beyond those of other officers (by virtue, for instance, of their membership on the board); beyond the company as a whole (since the fiduciary relationship is personal in nature); and beyond shareholders (who are in almost all cases protected by the corporate veil).

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Keep going bud, even though there is a good percentage of the population that are pricks about it, that doesn't account for everyone. It's definitely worth it, but make sure you have some thick skin, because unfortunately, everything wrong in the world is now your fault.

I'm a shareholder of several multi-million dollar companies, I invest but do not actively run those companies, that's all a shareholder is. CEO's are just highly motivated administrators who actively keep up with the ever expanding scope of business the organization becomes responsible for. The whole thread shows that the education system really has failed most of you, since you actually don't understand the function of each of these things within businesses and organizations. CEO's and shareholders and just people, not monsters, they aren't evil, they are just being what they believe to be the best thing they can be.

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When a bussiness fails it is never due to the labourer, almost always the fault of higher management. But they never get punished and just move to the next corp.

Consider outsourcing your HR functions and instead focus on running your business. Let someone else keep up on all the bullshit labor laws, hiring, terminations, compliance, and carry the burden of HR liability for you.

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And in practice that means very little when a business preforms badly or goes under.

They are not personally liable for their failings, not financially atleast.

>If I came up with an idea to make a profitable business, took the risk to build it from scratchs, and turn it into a success, I deserve a huge salary.
And if the business goes belly up, you still have to pay back the investors and creditors. The employees just get laid off.
I wouldn't *want* to be the richest CEO on the planet. The nice vacations, fancy cars, and large salary don't show how little free time they have to themselves.
>just benefit of your work
Define your terms.
This.
>I have a widget.
>I sell that widget to the public
>I get $10/widget
>I have a widget
>I sell that widget to a corporation
>I get $20/widget
Instead of 'widget', insert 'labor power', and instead of '/widget', insert '/hour'. The mystery of the missing surplus value is solved.
>I'm oppressed because I get told to do things and paid money for it
>Well, I mean, it's not enough money
>No I won't start my own business
>No I won't start my own nonprofit workers' cooperative
>No I won't just live off the land
Enjoy that cum.
Lol, no. Investors are the major stakeholders. Take Steward Health for example; it owns and operates 36 for-profit hospitals across the US.It's owned by Cerberus Capital Management. Cerberus Capital Management is owned by a small pool of partners who were lifelong investors, and is managed by a 100 or so individuals with financial experience
see

>But they never get punished and just move to the next corp.
that's because in the real world when something doesn't work, you don't punish it you replace it with something that does.

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Thank you bro.
I don't know how thick my skin truly is. Guess I'll find out the hard way.
Can I ask you 2 questions?
You said you created your own business, and have 130 employee, and on this message, you said you're a shareholder of several companies. Do you still manage your business?
And the other question : where do you come from? I'm sure you guessed what's my country is already (and if you don't : baguette)

yeah, that's the plan, but thanks for your input. It helps me believe I'm doing the good decisions

>The whole thread shows that the education system really has failed most of you.

I know perfectly well what their function is. Doesn't mean i agree with the reward that thyey get for it is even remotely fair.

And what this tread really shows is how many people have fall for the capitalist propaganda.

And you are in no way close to the kind of shareholder that i was talking about. Try again when you have several % in a company.

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>They are not personally liable for their failings, not financially atleast.
That's not necessarily true. It depends on the circumstances, and can drag out for years in court. Sometimes a verdict is rendered long after the company has ceased operations.

you're anti-union. when laborers are anti-union and pro-GOP, they've already destroyed themselves.

I LOVE an anti-union, pro-GOP workforce. Particularly under trump, I can pay them minimum wage and that's that.

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>capitalist class
It's a capitalist society you cretin, are you saying poor people are all Marxists or something?

>And if the business goes belly up, you still have to pay back the investors and creditors. The employees just get laid off.
I was implying that in the "took the risks". But yeah, you're right

>Define your terms.
I just did in the first message you quoted

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It's true- except if you consider his writing and journalistic career a job.
>all the small businesses that wallmart destroyed.
If you owned, invested in, or loaned to a small business that could not compete, you cut your losses, and start, invest in, or loan to a new operation, or become employees of a stable operation.
If you were directly employed by, contracted with, or were a vendor to a small business that could not compete, see above.
Why not?
The company I work for is on the S&P 500.

If that would be true i would be happy. But they don't replace it with something that works, but just with another one that is the same.

>a argument

She agrees that business owners always know best

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But in most cases it is true. Unless higher management has done something actually illegal, they are generally not personally liable

>I'm doing the good decisions
*I'm making
sorry

well, welcome to the real world. just like it's not possible to truly know if a manager is effective without first giving them a chance, it's also not possible to truly know if an entry-level employee is a thief, slacker, or a massive liability to the company without first giving them a chance.

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You should read a book or two. The capitalist is a class, just as the labourer class, or the clergy for instance.

Ironically enough you can be a Capitalist Socialist.

I own 21% of one, 14% of another and 10% of the last, that enough for you? Being a required member of every meeting for 2 of them enough for you? Fuck off faggot.

I have 2 layers of management now, so I don't directly manage all of my company, but I do interact directly with 1 level of management still. We are in the process of creating an executive layer, but I'm the sole shareholder so I'm not sure how comfortable I am giving up that control yet. I'm from Canada.

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This.

Not many people grasp that a good majority of people who are millionaires started as a working grunt and had to work and sacrifice things we take for granted in order to give their whole lives to building a business. Its take ridiculous work even to just maintain a million dollar business.

Instead of bitching, why not ask the millionaires how they did it?

german workers party

I feel like this is the new theme for Ivan's thread for wandering Cred Forumstards

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>Unless higher management has done something actually illegal, they are generally not personally liable
It's that tricky definition of "actually illegal" that keeps the wheels of the entire justice system turning. Something that may seem innocuous at the time may end up being a breach of obligation and, after years in court, end up exposing the officer to liability. "Actually illegal" isn't always easy to determine with certainty at first glance.

>1842
I'm not against legal strikes. I am against strikers beating up those who want to work and sabotaging the employer. Try again.
>1887
If blacks were cheaper than whites for the same labor (or put another way, if blacks provided the same labor as whites for cheaper), the employer would be stupid not to make the entire workforce a black one.
>1912
Workplaces were getting better and safer even before those laws were passed. People were willing to risk their lives working in dangerous places because the alternatives (drought- and blight-ridden agriculture, military service, prostitution, and starvation) were seen as worse.
>1915
Not being able to fire employees for joining unions does hamper business. Thankfully, firms have found their way to be hand-in-glove with unions, so union membership is now more often than not immaterial to the actual operations of the firm.
>1924
Once again, child labor was going down even before child labor laws were put in place, because families could now afford that. Also once again, those children found working in factories a better alternative than prostitution, starvation, being child militants, and agriculture.
>1938
Hours worked per week were going down even before 40-hour work week laws were passed; those who chose to work that many hours found it better than the alternatives. This is simple stuff.
>1964
Once again, if blacks and women were cheaper than whites and men (respectively) for the same labor (or put another way, if blacks and women provided the same labor as whites and men- respectively- for cheaper), the employer would be stupid not to make the entire workforce a black and/or female one. Are the employers ruthless profit-seeking machines or not? Make up your mind.
>1970
Workplaces were becoming safer/healthier over the years before laws pursuant to those things were passed, and workers still found dangerous/unhealthy workplaces better than the alternatives (starvation, prostitution, militancy, ag)
Moron.

whatever it takes to confirm ones own bias, which is usually very little. Add in some Dunning-Kruger effect and presto we have a good portion of everyone everywhere.

Fixed your image, OP.
You're welcome.

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>If you owned, invested in, or loaned to a small business that could not compete, you cut your losses, and start, invest in, or loan to a new operation, or become employees of a stable operation.
>If you were directly employed by, contracted with, or were a vendor to a small business that could not compete, see above

That was true in the 19th century. Today it is just the company that has the largest pile of cash. Walmart didn't destroy its competitors by being a better company, it just had more cash to throw around.

>It's true- except if you consider his writing and journalistic career a job.

I think they are jobs, and if you don't consider them jobs, that is fine, but then you can make that kind of pic about any economist or philosopher.

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surely you dumbed down American fool, you see how the American labor class has stumbled on Marxism all on their own.

Without anyone's help, the most conservative people in your nation have come to the very same conclusion as Marx.

Doesn't that tell you something?

So you are evil. Wondering how you would taste.

I see.
Well, thanks for answering my questions.
please accept this nice butt as a thank you.

And you should go too, there's just no point arguing with people who don't understand anything about basic economy.

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>>yfw your competitors take your best laborers, breaking your entire production line and collapsing your business, because you don't pay people what they're worth.

Piss poor business practices, bro

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You cannot actually be this moronic

Uhm.. Mods?

>the man made his own empire
>he proved he's more valuable than the norm
>"yep, he's evil alright! Can't wait to kill him!"

basic commie for you

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you didn't actually answer the question
define huge salary

If you see that shitty comic posted again, just reply with pic related.

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I live in a socialist country, my stores still look like the top one. Try again.

Fuck you. I don't work for niggers to get paid welfare so they can go buy drugs with my tax money. Socialism is so Jews can take money from whites and give it to shitskins.

I vote Republican because the Jews that own my company's shares deserve big returns. After all, they took tremendous risks by buying shares in my employer and I need to work extra hard to pay for their vision, entrepreneurship and guidance. Also, Israel is our greatest ally.

Fuck socialism.

You probably have no clue why that evil capitalism would be represented by that picture, but fair socialism certainly is not that picture.

Okay Ivan.

But tell me, do you get promoted if Trump wins again?

>No rejoinder
It's plainly evident who came out on top in this exchange.

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>i don't work for niggers to get paid welfare
> proceeds to pay welfare to investors

Makes sense.

Are you in the EU? Let us know how your shelves look after the upcoming Euro crisis.

youtube.com/watch?v=j4_tyEl84IQ

>humourless conservative detected

This. Capital takes the risk, should reap the reward.

I did answer the question.

The share of money left after I paid the salaries of my employees, all the charges of the business and the part I reinvest in the business.

I mean, he used to be registered as a socialist democrat.

>omg someone that is young so it must be cheese pizza!!
Work on your damn image search abilities fag.

>upcoming Euro crisis
Top kek, you really believe that. You mutts are so fucking hilarious.

it wasn't very funny tho
maybe you should work on that, at least you'll be working

>fair socialism certainly is not that picture
and of course, by "fair" socialism you mean white socialism, right?

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>this man lost 20kg thanks to this weird trick! You won't believe how it works!

a 15 minute video took less than a minute to go in one ear and out the other...

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so what are the salaries of your employers defined by

lol

Atleast im not a leech like you.

Society doesn't reward people on promises that they can complete a task.

It rewards people who spend alot of time practicing and learning the task, and then proves many times that they can complete the task by actually completing the task.

Figure out what task you want to do in your life and start fucking practicing. Dont bitch about the people who have been completing the task for years, and definitely dont dismiss the opportunity to learn from them.

The issue is that people can't differentiate between straight up socialism, democratic socialism, communism, etc, etc

socialism/communism works but only in small scale, homogeneous communities. its why in my city you will see mennonites driving around in fucking escalades and shit, theyre all rich as hell because they produce artisan/organic goods and sell them for a fuck ton while distributing the wealth evenly across their community.

doesnt work in big cities filled with people who are different racially/religiously and hate each other though.

The first 10 min are an extree simplification of the european union. It actually hurts my ears to listen to something this American. Is this made for toddlers?

my employers? I'm supposed to be the employer in this case right?
I'm going to assume you mean employees :
negociation at the interview.

ok pop quiz, whats the difference between monetary and fiscal control? i'll wait while you google it.

communism will only work with immense technological advancement and likely a huge bloody war to remove the idiocracy.

If you're not working then you leech society you parasite

They should be defined by what the market dictates someone of that skills/experience is worth.

Truth is all that matter is what you can get that person to accept.

My warehouse manager makes 15$ hr. Most warehouse managers make 20+.

I know I can lowball him caws hes a luddite, who pretty much keeps to him self and lives very close to the facility. He nurses some old POS car to get into work every day so being close to where he lives is key.

You have to find people that will take what you pay.

General warehouse makes 12-13.20 hr. If i lived in a small town, I could pay less.

so your talking about a good portion of those born into privilege. They are the worst leeches of all.

Being this jelly of other people's accomplishments.

Why don't you build a large company and pay all the employees the same wage as yourself? Don't you realize if you kill off the people that start and run businesses succesfully you make inefficient and unsuccessful businesses that don't make the products you want?

Why don't commies just pool their money, buy a farm in the middle of somewhere and voluntarily GULAG themselves in it and leave normal people alone?

found the first year economics major who thinks he knows what hes talking about lmao

even then, it won't last long : at some point, someone will wants more than his neighboor. That's human nature. That would be the seed of your new communist plan.
>That's actually why communism cannot work in the first place.

Simply put, monetary control is about currency devaluation, inflation etc. Fiscal control is about taxes.

>ITT
human sheep continue to believe that a massive government can work under their favorite system

waaahhh capitalism!
waaahhhhh socialism!
waahhhhhh commies!

this is how stupid you all sound. Imagine being so ignorant that you can only see 3 choices which are regurgitated to you by mass media every single day

good sheep. very good. keep fighting.

The risk taken is disproportionate to the reward. Additionally the barrier to entry is getting higher so it has become increasingly impractical to start a business without already possessing significant means.

The market was meant to be a tool that served society, it wasn't meant to be the purpose of society. Big money interests have deluded the masses into thinking that the market is the goal. This is wrong.

I should add, that Thatcherites will tell you there is no society just people doing what's best for themselves. It's this kind of retarded thinking that lets Jeff Bezos exist while others starve. It will lead to a collapse and a dystopic future.

Should scum, deadbeats and criminals be allowed a free pass and given food for nothing? Absolutely not. But the present disparity between rich and poor is comedic and we need to compress the extremes while preserving the current market systems so as not to causes untold suffering like previous communist revolutions did.

so in this scenario you're laying out you're taking a risk to build a profitable business from scratch but also you take on interviews for employers
wouldn't that make them part of the risk you're taking?

Exactly.

what you talking about! Every user knows what they be talkin about. We all has a smart here!

Show us your alternative oh wise one. Fascism maybe? Feudalism?

I want a cheap and at the same time quality clothes. But nobody do that. Your business owners are making billions selling cheap chinese shit by their big brand names like 500% overpriced. So you're not NORMAL, you are just a bunch of selfish fags who only interested in money profit and nothing more. Fuck you, eat shit and die, faggot.

The only way it will work is if humans no longer run the show and no longer get to put their philosophy creep into the machine.

even behind my screen I can smell the commie stench coming from you
develop a skill and get a job, you won't achieve anything staying behind a computer

No. What he means by risk is capital laid out.

In this fluid labor market, people for the most part are interchangeable.

There are things you can do to make yourself invaluable to a company though.

not at all : if my business fails, they have no responsibility. I have to carry the blame, and pay back the investors.
They can just find another job the day after.

This economics at its finest. It's all about what agreement on what is fair or worth it in the eye of the beholder.

It's your responsibility to save as much money as you can because and be as efficient as possible because your business survives on it.

It's the managers job to stand on his own two legs and determine what amount of money is worth him doing his job. If he settle for less it's on him, he's a grown man.

If people truly thought Starbucks is too expensive, they wouldn't pay and Starbucks would be outta business or have to lower their prices.

We dont have a problem with people being underpaid, we have a problem with people overspending.

baaaaahh wah wah wah Fine than I will. Fag.

> cheap
> quality

Surely this is a trivial thing and a smart person who sees through the propaganda such as yourself can build a factory employing local, non-illegal immigrant personnel, giving them retirement at 50, full health and dental benefits while massacring the competition because who the fuck wants clothing that is either cheap or expensive when CommieBrand has cheap AND expensive?

The likelihood I have achieved more in my life than yours is actually pretty decent.
I'm not communist but chances are you don't actually know what a communist is other than what has been spoon fed to you by Hollywood and its kin.

>I want a cheap and at the same time quality clothes. But nobody do that.
Gee, I wonder if there's a reason...

Except many of the people with the capital aren't risking much of anything.

Most of them already have money. They have so much money that they can afford to throw 90% of it away and they will still have more than 99% of people could even imagine having.

So... how are you spending your time?

Which of these terms has Hollywood coined?

- Cheka
- NKVD
- Dalstroy
- GULAG
- Great Leap Forward
- Cultural Revolution
- Juche

>increasing wealth inequality in developed nations
>the young and the poor are being politically disenfranchised
>war is perpetuated to hog resources and keep the inner circle enfranchised
>capitalism works

you underestimate human greed.
Even if the society is entirely run by robots (I suppose thats what you were saying by "if humans no longer run the show"?), the greedy ones will wants more.
In this group, the dumb ones will get caught and get punish, and the intelligent one will get what they want.
And again, the seed for your plan's destruction is planted.

Your point being?
What do you even think actual communism is?

Yea, this. Capital takes the risk, thus reaps the reward.

The marketplace is fucking brutal too. Good business constantly trying to make more output with less input.

If I paid my employees what I wish I could, we wouldn't be competitive, and no one would have jobs.

Do I wish I could pay warehouse guys 60k a year plus bennies? Hell yes. Wont happen. Money literally isnt there.

Im in a highly commoditized business. So gross margin is 30-35%.

This isn't socialism or communism. This is tribalism. It isn't share and share alike within the community so much as an implicit agreement to fair deal within the community while aiding each other to maximize the ability to screw those outside the community.

Still risking capital. Theres also the opportunity cost.

Im going to get into the clothing business and not get into the waterbottle business.

Oh shoot, turns out the water bottle business was better, oh well.

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and a very wrong assumption. I'm not an amerimutt.
If your guessing sense is as sharp as your grasp of basic economy, no wonder you're in this position

I may underestimate humans greed, but you also may underestimate what could happen with artificial general intelligence.
Human greed is easier to understand.

I hope some nigger will rob you and kill you right in front your office.

Relative risk is irrelavant, frankly. Money laid out is money laid out. The marketplace doesnt care if you are a billionaire heir, or a single mother who saved every penny working 90 hours a week.

I'm not who you are responding to but I agree with many socialist and communist views. I'm married, in my mid 30s, with kids and my wife and I are both gainfully employed.

My views haven't changed since I was 18. I was born smart, school and work came easy to me, I was charismatic enough to make the right connections and with minimal effort started and have sustained a good career.

The longer I've lived the more I've realised how bullshit the capitalist system is. I'm rewarded for my natural ability and personality traits I inherited. Seems like a joke to me.

The thing is, capitalism works perfectly on paper.

So does socialism. So does communism. They all work.

The problem is people fucking ruin them because they are greedy, self-interested pieces of shit. Every single system needs a periodic reset or it becomes too unstable and collapses. We already saw this happen with American capitalism in the late 1920s with the Great Depression. The US from 1860 to 1928 was basically an unregulated, libertarian capitalist paradise and look what happened. everyone believed the perfect system would correct itself. That the markets were god. And it just got worse and worse until FDR rebooted it.

Now the same thing will happen again.

>both sides refer to Bernie as a "socialist"
Exactly, how wrong that is.
He's a fucking dirty commie.

Did I acuse you of being an amerimut you fag?

Okay, explain the difference between socialism and communism.

I'm waiting to laugh my ass off when you get it wrong.

> you were born with money so you should be rewarded with more money

Because there is nothing wrong with that, eh?

Haha. Feels good to inspire this kind of hate. :)

I will admit that I felt bad last week when my warehouse manager (who doesnt have health insurance) saw the 47k bill on my desk for my wifes full mouth of dental implants. Hes 7 years older than me btw.

Its nice to have a family business that is fully functional AND have your dad die while you are still in your late 20s.

>I was born smart, school and work came easy to me, I was charismatic enough to make the right connections and with minimal effort started and have sustained a good career.

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING HERE ON Cred Forums ? Go back to faggit or fagbook where you belong

well, time will tell.

awww did your fragile ego get a hurt.

That's literally how the economy works, retard. Why would someone hire you if they lose money doing so?

Its definitely not fair. As fortunate as I am, I think about people like my old business partners son. He got to do nothing until he was 40. Now hes a grammy winning producer.

I am well off, but I have to WORK. This mug just got to sit around at his dads beach house in malibu and get really good.

Dudes name is greg kurstin.

There are different levels of lucky.

This thread in a nutshell...

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That's the only thing we got at the present moment.

Im sorry Im an Amerifat. I know there is Labor and Torries but which is considered "left wing" and "right wing"?

>47k bill on my desk for my wifes full mouth of dental implants
Maybe she should stop eating junk food? Mutts are pathetic, all you care about is your fucking teeth, your looks, your social status. It's all meaningless, it's just a mask.

How does he effect your life though?

Different consistencies of the same shit. You might as well be talking about the Bristol Stool Chart.
Trump wasn't the free market candidate, fool.
>I live in a socialist country
Do you, or do live in a capitalist country with heavy public services and welfare handouts?
He's a poor LARP.
>Today it is just the company that has the largest pile of cash.
Lehman Brothers and Enron had more cash than the average person can comprehend. They were not immune to market correction to their own malinvestment.
>Walmart didn't destroy its competitors by being a better company
Nonsense. WalMart provided more goods, more cheaply.
This is true. Even slimy ***s whom I happen to dislike, like Singer, Soros, and Adelson all came from humble backgrounds.
>evil
At least fundie Christians can point to Pascal's Wager to blame their superstition on, but you can only point to your own stupidity.
All capitalists in some form or fashion provide labor to own, operate, and manage what they have, and all laborers in some form or fashion benefit from capital and often even own capital themselves. The distinctions are largely moot.
>The STATE enforced and recognized ownership of humans and prevented slaveholders from freeing them
Yes, very capitalist. Also, by all metrics, she did have it better than her African counterparts, so you doubly fail.
Ah apologies.
>I know perfectly well what their function is
Go on, then. What?
>capitalist propaganda
Most teachers in major Western cities propagandize their students with anti-capitalist rhetoric, when they couldn't even describe what financial statements are.

You guys are funny and I've been coming here for years. It's my dark secret.

But seriously the depravity, intelligence, humor and diversity make this place quite fun to visit. It's like going to the bad part of town to get dinner. The food is good and the adventure is fun.
Labor is left. Tories are right.

why did your wife's teeth fall out in her 20's? heroin? meth?

They're both left-wing, just like the Democratic and Republican Parties.

No, it's not. What percentage of new businesses fail? Almost all of them. The compensation for success has to account for that high degree.

You're right that the barrier to entry is getting higher, but overall it's still fairly low. Anyone can start a business, and there's all kind of venture funding if you have a good idea. The problem are the government supported industries where it's hard for outsiders to get in because of the barriers they've developed.

It doesnt. I was just saying, there are levels to this, even somewhat privileged people can feel badly when they compare with others.

My dad was work a couple mil before he died. Greg Kurstins dad is worth 150-200 mil, and even that doesnt compare to somebody like warren buffets kids.

>me rich you poor
Just because your family owns rental homes doesn't make you shit.

Different user, but nobody's gonna read that multiple quote monstrosity.

Well, personnaly I admire people like you : I find it normal than higher level people are more rewarded than low level ones.
Can I ask you why you don't like your situation? Why do you thinks it's a joke?
On a related note, I'm going to assume your wife is pretty and/or intelligent and/or nice and/or funny : why did you choose her then? Don't you think it's a joke that she was chosen for her natural abilities and personality traits she inherited?

I am in my early 30s now. Who said her teeth were rotting out?

They just weren't perfect. Now they will be, actually shes having the surgery Wednesday.

we don't "rent" our estates.

You're going to continue to be a nigger.

>It's good I got handed everything by my dad so I didn't have to actually get by on my own merits

you're giving her fake teeth? that's disgusting.
how about braces, then veneers. like every wealthy person in America.

Oh well. Grew the company from 4 million in sales to 7 million in sales since the transition in 2015. We can only do our best with what we are handed.

For what purpose? Some fake white hollywood teeth will make her or you happy? Are you really that retarded, all of you? It's all doesn't matter, your money, your looks, it's nothing.

thank you user.

Compared to American politics they are both left wing. To European politics Im assuming the Torries are relatively conservative tho.

If the person invests it properly, then yes, that person should be rewarded with more money. If the person does not invested properly, then no, that person should not be rewarded with more money.

Veneers are inferior. I looked at veneers. they break and stain. Actually, tons of celebs have exactly what shes getting.

And braces? years of pain and an unsightly mouth for slightly less cost?

your net worth is only 7M? You'll need at least 3M to retire, a nice home (where I'm from) costs at least 2.5M

so there's 5.5M just for the home and retirement. If you have hobbies like car collecting, you won't be able to. Because you only have 1.5M left you can put into stocks

you'd have to empty your equity and retirement savings and invest it all

You're going to need a hell of a financial advisor

she wanted them. she didnt wear her retainer very well for the last few years, so her teeth kinda shifted back to pre braces mouth.

Whats the problem?

she should go through the pain of not having had braces in her youth. if her filthy teeth are yellow and crooked at 30, it's her fault. PUNISH HER.

rewards are best for people and animals who deserve them!

Most people never receive the opportunity to even do such a thing. It's really easy to say stuff like

>Capital takes the risk, thus reaps the reward.

when you aren't even the one who took the risk, and just expanded a company that was already successful that you inherited.

The majority of people with capital never earned it. They fell into it through inheritance and connections through their rich parents. Of course there are people who build it all from the ground up, and good for them. Give those people credit. But have some goddamned humility for yourself.

Pretty sure you're posting from your mom's basement.

Also, most college education is a money making scam. College graduates are often the equivalent of what high school graduates should be.

me: self-taught, disgusted with my stupid PhD holding underlings

Stop larping Ivan, it is a commonly known fact that the FIS makes bait posts on Cred Forums and Cred Forums to trigger Cred Forumstards in their attempts to aid Donald Trump. Cut the bullshit faggot.

Хвaтит пpитвopятьcя, Ивaн, этo хopoшo извecтный фaкт, чтo Cлyжбa внeшнeй paзвeдки Poccии пyбликyeт cooбщeния c пpимaнкoй нa / b / и / pol /, чтoбы вызвaть / pol / retards в cвoих пoпыткaх пoмoчь Дoнaльдy Tpaмпy. Oтpeжь epyндy.

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What's the problem? The problem is you, all of you. I can't stand this shithole of a world, it's all about looks, about money, about pretending. It's all making me sick. I don't wanna be a part of it.

lol. you are dumb as hell.

So the company that puts 50k or so in my pocket per month is just gonna disappear?

your net worth isn't in the millions.

you're anti-education, anti-science, and you'll never be taken seriously. don't address me again, go grab your shine box, then tend to my autos.

If you incur a loan to start a business yes you are taking on more risk until it is repaid. After that you and your employees incur the same risk if the company goes belly up. Future debts incurred by a business are taken from the business's assets. Its not like they come to repo a CEO's house or car if his business goes bust. If your business fails yes the responsibility is on you so that makes the risk to you actually less. As the employer you can get rid of an incompetent employee, as an employee you have little say as to the course of the company and have no inside track as to the incompetency and/or corruption that is driving the company under without your knowledge. .

? lol.

Bernie isn't a socialist. This is some weird propaganda you're pushing here.

And I’m a tax auditor for the government. I make sure you pay every single dime of taxes on time or I tack on interest.

Or else I freeze your bank account, or send someone to physically seize your assets or even shut down your business completely.

And if you’re an asshole and complain about it I’ll make you do a whole bunch of extra work just to waste your fucking time.

This. Instead of systems that rely on people that are good, systems need to be developed that assume people are greedy, underhanded shits. Checks and balances were a decent start in politics in US political system but they completely forgot to account for the economic monarchy so now it too needs a reboot.

You are confusing the managers of a business with the owners of a business. The stock/bond holders take the risk, not the manager.

Good one, user. I bet you think sucking dick and being homeless is a better option than incurring the debts necessary to make a liveable wage too, right?

>increasing wealth inequality in developed nations
The poor are materially better off than their counterparts of ten years ago, and the rich are even more materially better off than their counterparts of ten years ago. This is because what is required of the cream of the crop is more than what was required of them ten years ago, while what is required of the bottom of the crop is in many ways less than what was required of them ten years ago. Mystery solved.
>the young and the poor are being politically disenfranchised
They should be, but no. More people as a percentage or absolute number have political representation than they ever had in human history. Try again.
>war is perpetuated to hog resources and keep the inner circle enfranchised
The state starts wars against other states and capitalism is somehow to blame. Well done, you are an idiot.
>NOTREALCOMMUNISM!
The risks they take move oceans. The risks you take move puddles.
What we need is to make sure the working class is trained with actual useful skills. We don't need to knock off the top of the C-Suite of every major company to do that; we just need to cut 50% of every state/municipal department of education, and make sure the other 50% go to turning students into useful members of society.
Worse than a sheep is a cawing pigeon, who does little better than criticize. What solution do you propose?
Intergenerational wealth very quickly and very often goes down the tubes unless it's properly invested.

Lol listen to this fucking guy.

Highly based, user.

Sorry, thats just not how the world works and you know that.

There's the door, friendo.

Risk trickles down. The managing director at an investment bank or the district manager of a phone retailer is delegated a degree of latitude in organizing human and non-human resources to maximize profit. Failure results in termination.
>What if managers fail consistently and companies don't terminate them?
Then the companies are the ones which eventually take the hit.
>Checks and balances were a decent start in politics
Nope. Separation of powers struck against #skininthegame. If a monarch made a shit decision, than he risks revolt, and he takes the blame, then he or his successor can make the correction. In our current system, each branch takes a little credit for when things are going well, and tries to pass off blame when things are not.
Lol you're a pissant for daddy government.
>anti-education, anti-science
The irony.

True. Bernie's proposal only account for 70% of the GDP.

>Then the companies are the ones which eventually take the hit.

I totally agree.

Would destroy our society. But I guess thats what he wants.

ANY drop in competitiveness in our businesses vs the rest of the world is a bad thing for the country as a whole.

And then Shekelberg used the loophole designed by his friend the senator Goldberg and the working men is the only one left paying taxes.

>Ivan
>FIS
Lol. This is even better than the Neocons who thought Iraq War protesters were paid off by Al Qaeda. This is also a Fallacy of Origins. Instead of dealing with the statements being made, you shift the focus to possible origins of the statements being made. It's intellectually hollow.
>To European politics Im assuming the Torries are relatively conservative tho.
Yeah, it's a shame. In a better age, we'd all have a Nationalist Party and a Right-Libertarian Party.
The opposite is
>responding to each post individually
>are you new?
>are you retarded?
No winning.

Thanks king.
I told you already, I'm a software engineer, and a damn good one. I was making decent money before I even entered college, and my CompSci degree was just to get a better idea of the theory behind my field. Loans were minimal and paid off ahead of schedule. Oh, this is a tip from me to you: never, ever, if at all possible, pay the minimum amount or less back to creditors per month.