Raven #1 PREVIEW

Now on her own EMO Series

...

...

...

END PREVIEW

Hot raven. Don't know if like.

>Marv Wolfman Raven story
FUCK YES

what

>mark wolfman
E M O
M
O

>believed in a God she knew did not exist
But doesn't the Christian God actually exist to some extent in the DC Universe?

>FUCK YES
oh sweet user, Marv Wolfman sucks at writing Raven. Always has and probably always will.

Yeah but what has that fucker done for me lately?

Those are some cool ass demon designs

I don't know about this haircut

>Thinking we'd get away from that shit raven costume
god dammit.

I liked it

it's not THE WORST, but it seems like it's all over the place as far as design goes.

oh this feels like fanfiction almost. I don't really know how I feel about that.

come on
fuck damian
you know you want to you slut

I dislike how literal they took it.
>her name is Raven
>Ravens are birds
>let's dress her up as a bird

>i can feel your heartbeat, raven-chan

I'm hoping the father tries to molest her and she ends up killing him, because if not this books is gonna end up a bit boring.

>japanese gibberish

She's 17 and Damian is still losing his Baby teeth.
>/SS/?
no.

I was fine with it until till I noticed she has two longass locks of hair on the side of her head.

>She's 17 and Damian is still losing his Baby teeth.
he's 13

it's romeo and juliet

and they're pushing them in the movies

plus they're both birds (robin + raven)

well, if not raven, there's always starfire

>wanting the comics to be like those terrible ass movies
Who hurt you user? What made you like this?

>he's 13
And he's still losing his baby teeth.

Maybe they believed in some other god that was actually fake. They never specified. Otherwise Spectre would show up and say "you best not be badmouthing my boss."

fanfaction is rotting its brain

>terrible ass movies
are you kidding? they're fucking great

This is like saying Claremont sucks at writing Magik.

>Raven meets the other side of her family
>they are the most annoying wastes of space ever
>there's going to be a cringey religious subplot
Do you people see now why making shit up is a bad thing? Because it inevitably results in shit like THIS.

>yet more Trigon bullshit
She's existed since the 80s, and this is the only thing they can squeeze out of her. What a waste of a character.

No it's not because Wolfman truly sucks at writing Raven.

it actually looks like she's going to be dealing more with her brothers

they've said that trigon isn't going to pop up in teen titans because he's been used so much (though someone does want to use him again)

Can't we just have her without the mask? I love that face she makes!

>Raven dealing with Trigon
That's like getting mad at Superman for dealing with lex Luthor.

Right, and Perez sucks at drawing her.

I actually liked this.

Pic related.

Great run but Raven wasn't anything special in it and every other time he's written her he did a poor job. Just because someone creates a characters, doesn't mean he's also the best writer for it, that way of thinking is why Jurgens has such an iron hold on Booster Gold despite the fact that his Booster sucks.

No, it's like getting mad if Superman was a secondary team character and literally every story that focused on him was Superman vs Doomsday.

>cringey religious subplot
Nigga I'm stoked for that shit.

You've yet to say who you believe *does* write her well.

Has this run aged well?

I've read a lot of British invasion DC from that era, but not as much American penned stuff.

>it actually looks like she's going to be dealing more with her brothers
That's still Trigon shit because her brothers want to fulfill daddy's interests. It's a pretty lazy cheat.

Raven's daddy issues are literally the only kind of story she ever has. She has no other personal enemies, she has no other launching point for character development, she has nothing. This mini has less than no reason to exist.

Whoa prayer in comics? Looks like we're hitting another good age.

Alan Moore is that you?

>cringey religious subplot
*tips crucifix*

This would be an excellent costume if someone removed the visor.

>sins of the father
WOAH
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH

Not that guy, but nobody does

Wolfman and Johns are the only readable Titans runs with her on it and she's not even the best character in either of those runs

>Raven
>secondary team member
you silly cunt Raven is the most important teen titans history, she's the very reason why the team exist and her shit with Trigon is like the main fucking plot.

>Has this run aged well?
If you enjoy Claremont's X-Men, then the answer is Yes. Otherwise, ymmv.

oh good, her demon brothers stripped her of that dumb ass bird costume.
Now we can get a proper re-design. probably one that apes the last Justice League animation.

Geoff Johns. Hands down the best writer Raven ever had.

>wanting comic books to get anywhere near religion
Kill yourselves, you filthy hypocrites. You fucking cunts will whine all day everyday about comic books talking about social issues, but now you actually WANT a religion subplot. Seriously, go jump off a cliff.

She's one of the worse characters in both of those runs actually and she probably would've been the worst had Johns not fucked up Bart and Kon so badly

user, your desire to bone Raven is understandable. But she's a talking MacGuffin.

>You fucking cunts will whine all day everyday about comic books talking about social issues
This may come as a shock to you, but Cred Forums isn't a hivemind.

>fucked up Bart
He ruined Superboy, but I liked what he did with Bart.

WORDS

THAT

KILL

Alright so it's pretty clear that you don't read comics but that's cool, I've comte to expect this behavior from Cred Forums, talking shit about characters they don't know with their misinformation.

Oh god you're that fucking autist from the other day who doesn't understand how writing fiction works

Pretty clear you just waifu the cartoon version of her

>calling Raven a macguffin
Alright so you clearly don't know what macguffin is.

Yes it is. You all think the exact same way. You may disagree on little things, but when it comes to how you behave, and your general beliefs, you're all the same psychotic douchebag who wants to piss and moan about how not everything is about you. Doesn't matter how many times I say "Kill yourself.", I mean it, every single time.

Let's just hope it's not the same autist who turns up in every Alan Moore thread to bitch and moan about how Superman is portrayed in Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, or this thread will be over before it's begun.

They're horrible, user.

JL vs. TT was an awful movie that only existed to fanwank Damian. Every character and scene was there only to prop Damian up.

Even when Blue Beetle hurt Damian it was only so that Raven could cure him and establish their special link.

...

>you can't make things up for fiction
Oh it's this guy who doesn't know anything about comics or writing in general.

What do you understand by the term, user?

Damian is a shitty character, stop.

...

He wants to fuck her, so she is a good character.

I understand you don't actually know what a Macguffin is.

What do you understand by the term?

I feel like "Geoff never wrote anything bad" will be the new narrative adopted the desperate.

I guess she is, in a way, Trigon's MacGuffin. I don't know if you can apply that to people or just objects though.

How apophatic.

Kind of reminds me of Curse of Shazam with Billy meeting his foster family. Billy/Raven team up when?

Okay, retards, I'll explain it again, as many goddamn times as your tiny brains require.

In a shared universe that has existed for decades, you cannot make shit up, because there are already a million different characters and elements you can pull out of the junk drawer to utilize for your story. Creation of new characters and elements only serves to further clutter the setting. Unless Arella's yuppie sister and her 50s sitcom family were established in a previous story, they have no reason to be here, especially since they're already ear-bleedingly annoying after only two pages of panel time.

Prove me wrong.

>Billy and his powered up family showing up on that Rebirth poster
hope levels rising

When was the cut off date where creators had to stop creating new things?

>you cannot make shit up
Yeah you can.

...

An object or person that keeps the plot moving irrespective of whether that thing is central to the story. She's the MacGuffin of every Trigon story, irrespective of whether the writer attempts to inject character into her.

Damian should fuck Starfire.

The cartoon version actually gave her a personality.

Wolfman wrote her as an emotionless weirdo who caused problems(unintentionally except when she turned heel)for the team in the 1980s.

Johns tried to give her a personality but his run on Teen Titans had a lot of character derailment for everyone.

Lobdell based her personality on the cartoon version but tried to have her sell out the team to Trigon.

>She's existed since the 80s, and this is the only thing they can squeeze out of her. What a waste of a character.

QUICKLY user.

You've been tasked with creating a new villain for Raven. What do you create?

It's like I'm actually browsing Byrne Robotics.

just make her a villain for the GLs and the rest of the corps or something

>new villain for Raven
Herself.

Not the guy you are responding to but I've always had this idea of some demon guy taking an evil Trigon part of her and forging it into someone designed to destroy people like Raven. Its her literal dark side made manifest in flesh.

Its probably already been done though, I don't have time to read every Raven/Teen Titan comic.

I'd just have her travel around the world resolving supernatural problems with Kid Devil as her sidekick.

Nothing, I tell whoever gave me the task there's no point. She's a Teen Titan, thus all her elements are a collective part of that series. It ain't rocket science.

I'd give it about five years after a character is made. If you haven't got them completely figured out by then, too fucking bad.

Congratulations on proving 's point.

But she is central to the story so you're wrong hut I already knew that.

Oh shit you are autistic aren't you?

I was conceived in a tiny town.

A purely anti magic being that can completely wipe her from the face of existence.

Reading comprehension not your thing? The MacGuffin can be central or not: the "irrespective" isn't there for garnish.

I wonder how we go from this to the new Teen Titans run. We already know her new costume and that she'll cut her hair and somehow looks younger, but then again she's eternally 14 anyway.

so how does this principle apply to Raven herself? She was created past the five point in Teen Titans. Would you consider her OC trash

>she's the macguffin of every trigon story.
No she's the main character of every trigon story. You're confusing macguffin with being the protagonist cause you're a shitposter.

Hey aren't you that guy who always complainedthat about Vixen getting a cartoon.

>preferring people make use of previously existing elements that are just lying around being wasted instead of making up shit that's almost certainly less interesting
>autism
Are you retarded, or contrarian? I suppose it could be both though.

This sounds like a fedoracore fan-fiction.

>She's 17
They can always turn her younger. Stupider shit has been done.

But to be fair the Raven in those movies is, what, only a year older than Damian?

>No she's the main character of every trigon story.
She really isn't.

>Tim Drake is dead
Well if that ain't a spoiler.

We get it user, you don't actually know what a macguffin is so you don't have to keep repeating yor ignorance.

I've been in households like that.

I'll get flamed for saying this but the 2003 cartoon was the best incarnation of her character and the people who write comics use that version as the basis of her character now.

I don't understand why anons seem to be annoyed that the cartoon version influenced comic book writers . DCs cartoons always influenced the comics,Harley Quin debuted in BTAS and became wildly popular in comics and movies.

I like the art...

...

If it's just lying around then it's probably wasn't that interesting.

>Would you consider her OC trash?
Y'know what? Yes. Especially since her story has gone absolutely nowhere since her introduction, her abilities are vaguely defined at best, and her personality has been so bland that a fucking adaptation is what gave her any real sense of identity.

So yes, Raven is OC trash. Making this solo book all the more fucking POINTLESS.

You're preference is creatively bankrupt.

I hate this raven already.

You know what would be good villains for Rave? The Order of Saint Dumas.

She's a demon's daughter. Nothing better than an order of crazy paladins to fight a demon's daughter.

Looking at that cover I have to think of Dancy Flammarion. I don't why.

>It doesn't look like what I grew up with, so its shit

The personality is reminding of cartoon Raven. Especially the face she does during the prayer bit.

But why, user? Don't leave us guessing.

You're autistic cause you saying that the only way you can write is recycling old ideas.

What a dull fight scene

How is Jesus the devil?

Some kind of elder-god like lovecraftian monster. Stay away from demons, go cosmic horror.

I want to see Raven and Zatanna duke it out, go back to the 80's TT roots. Or just have them team up and fight crazy supernatural shit together. Heck just team her up with someone other than TT characters. I actually kinda liked the Supergirl/Raven team up Brave & The Bold story. It was neat to separate her from the Teen Titans for a bit.

design and personality. Looks like she regressed compared to Teen titans Raven, and those slashed pants looks like more stylish than what someone that spend her entire life in hell would put. Also, isn't that red thing supposed to be on her forehead?

. . . Her mother was a Trigon-worshipper.

>reading comprehension

Well, DC's Jesus a super-cool dude who's friends with everyone, including Lucifer.

It's a setting that has existed for running close to a century now. If there's something you need for your story, it almost certainly already exists in some dark corner of the archives. Failing to perform even a cursory glance for said element is just lazy, and again, only serves to further clutter things and make the setting less defined than it already was. But fuck being invested in any kind of consistent universe, I guess. Best to focus on fight scenes and dull melodrama.

W-what's the big "M"?

These seem like pretty superficial things to trigger a response as strong as hatred.

>But fuck being invested in any kind of consistent universe, I guess. Best to focus on fight scenes and dull melodrama.
It always boils down to this boo hoo holier than thou shit with you retards.

Why do you come to these threads if you hate this plebian nonsense so damn much?

A one-eyed anal rapist.

...

Mutilation.

God you must be from Byrne's robotics because you are the most unimaginative fuck.

Well, I'm willing to give this book a shot, along with Shade: The Changing Girl.

Captain Justice: a paladin dressed in all white who hunts demons in various dimensions. He decides to go after Raven, believing her to be evil. She has to convince him otherwise.

to shitpost and bait people

That doesn't sound pleasurable.

Love you endlessly?

>calling figurines idols
>Nobody needs so many pillows
Lel?

>Shade: The Changing Girl.
I have a feeling that's going to be the standout Young Animal title.

Why not just use Azrael?

Also, fuck it! I'm shipping Azrael and Raven now.

>she has nothing
>This mini has less than no reason to exist.
Right because there's no way it could possibly be intended to address the problem that she has nothing going for her by adding a new element to her character. That would be nonsense, huh?

Since you're on Cred Forums, does that make you part of the hivemind as well? Is what you posted here an accurate description of yourself?

Do not assume someone would be bitching about something if they didn't possess at least some investment in it. I like cape books, I just wish they were better overall. But wanting things to be improved and having a firm idea of how that can be accomplished is apparently a sigh of autism, and to put up with bullshit like a battered spouse is a clear sign of sanity.

How does pointing out that a character has no reason to exist qualify as being unimaginative?

What's the Big M

Seriously, what the fuck is it with pillows in middle-class American houses? They're on every surface in every room. Are American bourgeois made of glass?

Let's say that from those things alone we can already know where this Raven is going. Well, it still might surprise us, i'm just not counting on that. Probably will still read it.

Autism is not the same as being full retard in the above post

Autism is being able to recall the hundreds of characters over the years

You do realize that her abilities have been clearly defined since the 2003 cartoon?

Or are you offended that she did not have a personality and clearly defined powerset until 2003?

Don't be silly, user: is a unique snowflake who alone on this board has opinions of their own. I mean, that's just obvious, right?

. . . Right?

mniggers

I really want to see Raven trying desperately to keep her cool when her aunt inevitably makes her suffer through a Tupperware party.

>There will never be a DC/Dark Horse crossover where the angel tells Dancy to go after Raven and them duking it out until Constantine finds a way to stop them

>implying that's the problem
pretending it isn't shit, doesn't make it not shit.

Now I can get behind this comic.

Insisting it's shit doesn't make it shit either.

It's not shit though.

You won't find something
>in some dark corner of the archives
with just
>a cursory glance
user.

How do you think Trigon is the only story she's ever gotten? It's *because* what you are saying should happen has happened. She's only been working with material she already had. To get away from Trigon, she needs new material. Get it?

Spaz pls go

does she have any stories that don't revolve around her daddy?

>if there's something you need for your story it probably already exist
What if it doesn't?

masturbation

Don't engage the village retard user

Trigons deadbeat extended family who just mooch off Raven but she's too nice to tell them to fuck off.

Not that user, but the helmet at least is garbage.

Well, there was that one story where she mind-controlled Dick into breaking up with Starfire and becoming her love-slave because the necessity of repressing her emotions had left her stunted as a person, meaning she didn't understand how human relationships work. That happened.

There's no point in addressing it, because nobody fucking cares. Anyone who shows any interest of Raven inevitably turns out to be a fan of the cartoon. The comics Raven is a waste of space who only existed to make the plot move forward. The rational thing to do is to let the bitch fucking die already and rot in the garbage where she belongs.

>Or are you offended that she did not have a personality and clearly defined powerset until 2003?
That is most certainly part of it, yes.

She's wondering if the villain has ever masturbated so they can use the mental image against him.

It took them way too long to define her personality and powerset but at least she now has a personality. Some characters have been around way longer and still have no personality.

>this character has no reason to exist
That's why you're an unimaginative fuck, because a creative person would try to give the character a reason to exist.

What's wrong with becoming interested in the comic version because of a familiarity with the cartoon version? And why is it bad if this leads to Raven becoming a fuller character than she had before? You don't have to give up on something just because its basic concept is bad. You can fix past mistakes and make ideas better than they were.

For example, the user you're responding to is just a Pissed-Off Sperg stock character.

that makes sense

>who only existed to move the plot forward
Well that's utter bullshit.

Yes, but as user keeps telling us, Wolfman can't write Raven, so we'd better pretend that story never happened.

>The rational thing to do is to let the bitch fucking die already and rot in the garbage where she belongs.
Well, ain't you a keeper.

...

PanPizza will fap happy tonight

>better pretend that story never happened
No. what you should do is pretend happened but in a way that's actually good.

end your life

That's a cute outfit.

shut up Pan

I love how Raven is perfectly content with being a homewrecker. Makes me think she has weakness for trashy romance novels.

...

>literal cuck rape

Sounds hot. Does it end in glorious 3some?

...

No but Starfire did brought the idea up.

It ends with

>Raven and Starfire skinny dipping
>Sweatingman.jpg

>slashed pants
Those are tights, you shut-in.

Wolfman's run went to some interesting places...sometimes it was a good thing,other times not so good.

I'm too cool for school fool

It's like Bronze Age X-Men if Claremont had retired before Shooter's crossover bullshit and Byrne had stayed on as artist for the majority of the run.

True dat

What a shitty, boring resolution.

Did you miss ?

Not having the character be fleshed out from the beginning is bad writing.

>You can fix past mistakes and make ideas better than they were.
Not really. Once you fuck up, the scars from said fuck ups don't go away, and you should just move on to something else.

There's no possible reason fore her to exist besides being a plot motivator. There's nothing for her to do besides bitch about her daddy issues.

Her designs cool.

this isn't marlel where heroes fight each other at the drop of a hat

>not having the character fleshed out from the beginning is bad writing
It's so funny you have such a hard on for shared universe but you don't actually know how they work.

to be fair starfire is very much the forgiving type

You're a dumbass. Damian got his ass kicked in every fight except a dance competition.

it isn't if you've been reading 'tec

>"Characters should start off bland and uninteresting, leaving it to other writers to develop."
You're an idiot.

Nah, man. He's the one that save the day.

What scars have been left other than with people like you? In what way does shitty past characterization prohibit future growth?

>company wars
For what purpose?

There's nothing wrong with that, but it makes for uninteresting conflict.

Even the dance competition was bullshit. Just because he's a special ninja that doesn't he should be excellent in dancing and it only served for him to make Beast Boy look bad.

You're the one who doesn't even understand how a shared universe.

Trigon for the millonth time.OF COURSE!

Batman's gonna freak!

>Raven just exist as the plot motivator!
>being this retarded
Do I need to breakdown NTT for you user? Cause I sadly think I do.

>What scars have been left other than with people like you?
The fact she cries every five minutes.

>In what way does shitty past characterization prohibit future growth?
Because it makes anyone with half a brain and very little patient for bullshit lose interest.

>the fact that she cries every five minutes
Are you fucking serious?

>what is Animal man
>what is Power girl
>what is Black orchid
>what is the omega men
>What is the question?
See that's how a shared universe should actually work user. Writers bring new ideas to old characters.

When did Raven cry every five minutes?

...

An overenthusiastic, two-fisted anti-mage who genuinely enjoys magic-based supervillainy

or Klarion, but I think his villain days are over.

I get the impression that the user you were talking to is annoyed because writers use the 2003 cartoon as a basis for Raven's personality now. Its either that or he's trolling.

Every time she used her vaguely defined empathic abilities, she started crying like a little bitch.

>garbage
>garbage(LOL TITTIES)
>garbage
>garbage(OW THE EDGE)
>garbage
You wanna give some examples that don't immediately undermine the point you're trying to make? Cause it might help.

She never did, Raven was big on suffering in silence. She was pretty sensitive tho but that's the point, she's an empath who feels for other people.

...

...

Oh its one of those books. Great.

Klarion can still just troll Raven.

Sounds like a sitcom, the annoying side character says "That's so Raven" everytime she makes a snarky comment

Right. The people who aren't interested in helping a character develop will be repelled, ideally leaving the writing up to those who want to make a positive change

...

>vaguely defined empathetic abilities
What's vagues about it?
>she can feel other people's emotions
>she can influence other people's emotions
>she can heal
That's pretty clear cut.

I'm just picturing a 8 foot demon covered in spikes popping up everywhere just to say that's so Raven.

Oop meant in reply

In a world were things make sense, bland, underdeveloped characters are tossed in the trash to make way for characters who are actually worth a damn. But in this reality, the definition of 'shared universe' is synonymous with 'cluttered incoherent mess'.

>fans of shitty characters can only use reaction images to defend said shitty characters
It's nice to see one's opponent run completely out of ammunition. You can fuck off now. Maybe get yourself some taste, though I won't hold my breath.

I think Etrigan and Merlin might actually be her nephews.

You're contradicting yourself now.

Yeah, it can't possibly be that Anons just think your insights aren't worth more than a reaction image.

>Bad characters should be disposed of
>But they can be fixed with new ideas
>The damage is already done
>People who don't hate the character can write for them in new ways
>They should be disposed of since they're bad in the first place
We've entered a circular argument with my next response saying that a bland concept is not a death sentence because characters can still be developed. I'm sorry you don't the way I do about this. All the same, thank you for the discussion.

All contradictions resolve themselves in the one great truth, which is that is always right, even when all signs suggest that he likely formulates his opinions by banging his dick on the keyboard.

>"Use what you already have instead of needlessly making shit up."
>"Some characters are inherently terrible and aren't worth the effort."
Not seeing the contradiction there.

Far more likely is that this is Cred Forums, where I'm one of only about ten people who bothers to put a moment's thought into anything.

>use every part of the buffalo except don't
Contradictory as fuck.

>Far more likely is that this is Cred Forums, where I'm one of only about ten people who bothers to put a moment's thought into anything.
Thus spoke Zarathustra.

It's all well and good to use the fur, the meat, and the bones, but just what in the everloving fuck do you expect to do with the gallbladder? Because that's what characters like Raven are. She's the gallbladder.

>a bland concept is not a death sentence because characters can still be developed
HOW? They can't be developed(or rather shouldn't be) because there's nothing to work with in the first place.

Is a character whose only fault is being bland but can be made interesting better or worst than a character with no redeeming qualities that can be improved?

I wish DC let Azrael hunt demons, but I don't think they'll let that happen.

Trick question. Both should go straight to the trash.

Are you done trying to be clever, or are you going to say something that makes this insipid argument worth my time?

The biological analogy shipwrecks on the fact that fictional characters can easily have their functions extended or reassigned.

I don't believe there are any bad characters, just bad writers. Because they are fictional rather than real people, there is nothing stopping them from overcoming their flaws and developing, save for not yet being handled by the right writer. They can be developed, and if they can't it's because of of people with attitudes similar to yours who don't think a character is worth improving.

>Are you done trying to be clever, or are you going to say something that makes this insipid argument worth my time?

Following your logic,most comic characters should not exist. At the end of the day a writer is the difference between a character being good or bad but according to you, writers should not even try to improve characters.

Cybersorcerer.

He's a cyborg who uses his robotic parts to harness magical energies. He kills other spellcasters and eats their souls for more power/extended battery life.

He thinks she's hot and wants to fuck her. Or eat her soul. Whatever comes first.

There's three easy answers here.
Other random demons/cults hat don't have to deal with Trigon, there's more to hell than just him.
A group of exorcist priests.
A group of techno whack jobs that hate magic.

why does she look like a retarded mongoloid here

To what end? Giving a character a different purpose isn't going to make them any more interesting.

>I don't believe there are any bad characters, just bad writers.
That's because you're a naive retard. Again, if there's nothing to work with, there's nothing you can do about it.

Didn't Johns give her a tramp stamp?

The strength and weakness of comics is this: any character can be improved or retooled if the circumstances are right.

No one cared about Deadpool until writers turned him into a meme and then the movie made him into a bigger meme which gave him a popularity boost.

No one cared about Raven until the cartoon gave her a personality and comic book writers started writing her like the cartoon version.

It's kind of silly to insist that writers should not try to improve characters because they were originally bland or boring.

Yes

Yes, in a reality that never existed, since editorial mandate has it that the DCU has been so completely rebooted that all previous continuity is null and void, rendering Crisis events redundant.

He did but there's a good idea behind it.

Yes he did.Depending on who you ask it was either character assassination or one of the few good things in Johns run on Teen Titans.

All I'm taking away from your post is that only adaptations can make people care about shit characters.

>It's kind of silly to insist that writers should not try to improve characters because they were originally bland or boring.
Why? They started as shit, they're gonna stay shit.

It'sbest to bote that when he was writing it, Tramp stamps were still seen as fashionable.

>the raven goes to her ass crack
subtle

>they're gonna stay shit
Dumbest thing I've ever read.

I like how you can barely see her underwear peeking out.

>Why? They started as shit, they're gonna stay shit.

You keep insisting that characters that started out bad can be improved upon, but you have yet to provide any examples. Raven sure as hell ain't an example, they're STILL harping on the Trigon crap. And now they've got her hanging out with her yuppie bible-thumping aunt? Yeah, what an improvement. Idiot.

>you have yet to provide any examples
Right here buddy

>you have yet to provide any examples.

Why are you guys falling for the bait?

All of those characters are shit though, and have remained shit throughout their existence. Which is something I already pointed out. Try again. I'm curious as to who you'll pull out of your asses this time.

Remember, kids: you can't take an insubstantial character and make them substantial. user has spoken.

Because it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

>and comic book writers started writing her like the cartoon version
Well they're trying to, but they've been pretty shit at it. I've yet to read a Raven like her cartoon.

We're waiting for the inevitable.

Only thing you pointed out is your shit taste.

>convoluted retcon origin
>LOL PLANT ELEMENTAL
You seem to be misinformed of what substance is.

Also, you just negated your own point by posting Alan Moore.

>all of those characters are shit
there is no way in hell I'm letting you get away with that. You're gonna have to expalin your stupidity user.

What is substance then user?

so i'm looking for any other works the artist has done but i can't find anything about her? any reccs

You're objectively wrong.

>that dumb ass bird costume.
What's so dumb ass about it? It looked pretty cool. Revealing, but morbid, just like it should be.

You seem to have absolutely no argument.

...

Something that user is on.

Okay.

>Animal Man
There are far better family man characters, ones with actual personality.

>Power Girl
Annoying asshole with a stupid explanation for dressing like a tramp.

>Black Orchid
Fuck off, nobody even knows what the fuck her deal even IS.

>Omega Men
Tom King fans love the taste of his cock. They're a bunch of douchebag space terrorists who are otherwise not interesting as characters.

>The Question
Vic is a generic grizzled detective type who's a platform for espousing the virtues of being a selfish dick. Renee is a generic grizzled detective type who serves as a platform for thirsting over ginger pussy.

Sorry to hit you with the truth, but there you go.

Wow her own emo series i have always wanted that.

At least this looks like raven unlike the upcoming teen titans

You're objectively wrong.

>tim drake is dead
When did this happen

>there are better family man characters
Name them

This
This could auctualy be good i saw the pictures and got worried but i am auctualy hype.

I like the kids superman shirt.

Recently.He's not dead but trapped in a different dimensions(?)by a mysterious man.It's part of the overarching plot of DC's Rebirth.

...

>truth
Truth doesn't mean your shit opinions, nothing you said is actually true.

Power Girl has not been an asshole since the 1980s.

Clark Kent, J'onn J'onnz, Alan Scott(you read that right), Jay Garrick, Nathaniel Adam...

Slapping the word 'objectively' on there doesn't make it true. Though your denial is sort of pitifully amusing, so there's that.

Me too man
Me too

Visor is the best part though.
If you were playing a videogame and that helm piece was an armor you could wear I'd fucking have it.

>cringey religious subplot
This auctualy looks incredibly well done.
That what religion your mother raised you with bit was maybe a little on the nose but its otherwise great so far.

>It's a pretty lazy cheat.
No its fucking not its a fresh perspective.

My stand
[W A K E M E U P]

We like it when that stuff is handled well.

>Clark
>martian manhunter
>Captain atom
>Jay garrick
None of these characters are family man characters.

I like the visor but it just looksout of place on Raven.

You're objectively wrong.

A guy completely unrelated to her magic schtick, backstory or powers. Some japanese guy maybe who has an obession with gardening and precision and had a firm grasp on psychological warfare. Give him a sort of zen tinge and a salaryman suit to contrast his mundaneness with the ability to impact a superheroes life. As a minor twist he could pull off some completely unrelated power like lava manipulation or the ability to turn metallic objects into dust and go "yeah its not very useful isnt it"

This would enable writers to write "deep" shit and personality without having to resort to fucking Trigon for the 500th time. The entire conflict between this weeb faggot and Raven should be completly novel, no fucking references or reimagining. Maybe she insults him in some arcane way and he goes full vengeful mode, or he is just fucking with people for kicks or he just wants to stalk Raven because it gets his dick hard, whatever just tell a completely new story and let Raven grow as a person during it, discover new things about herself, find new conflicts, new enemies, anything but another demon.

the abrahamic god does, the catholic god does not

But raven does not have anything in her junk drawer.

>Alan Scott
>a better family man character than buddy
Do you even read comics?

making her look like Femto felt like a promotion, that she was slightly more important now

She should have been on the fucking jld

I really hate how they're randomly aged the New Teen Titans. Cyborg's too old to have been a Titan, Raven and Beast Boy are too young. It's dumb.

Nothing you said has been true so that makes you objectively wrong.

>WW's war on anything neck related continues
They're not all terrible, though some of the more recent ones including JLvTT have been shit.

Edgar Allen Poe...WITH A GUN
throw in an Alfred Hitchcock, an Odin, a metal eating kaiju, and Steven Hawking as other villains

Why is the diamond centered between her eyes instead of on her forehead?

>five years
Oh fuck guys we better cancel the harley quinn movie

What are the chances this crosses over with Zatanna, they both live in San Fran, right?

...

But she does not have any preexisting elements to use. The only place this argument really works is the use of the new iron women instead of rhodys niece.

Are you going to complain that the new cyborg is finaly giving him a rogues gallery.

You mean the solo book that is setting out to fix the characters problems.

Ok then user show us something else they could have used for a raven story instead.

man this thread went to shit so fast

But people in the dc universe dont masturbate user

Since she is too young for Dick. Tim is too dead. Damien is too young for her. What ship then?

>Supergirl/Raven team up
Iima have to check that out

...

>has no reason to exist
So we should just bin them instead of finding them a reason to exist.

What is up with Beast Boy's age in New 52 and Rebirth?

Dude looked 17 when he was hanging out with Terra at the start of the New 52,then he started getting drawn younger and in Rebirth he looks a year older than Damien.

Chantinelle or etrigan

DC wants him to be the character they can market towards little kids.

Beast Boy and Raven are going to forever be teenagers due to not being a legacy character and being apart of NTT and the cartoon, the most popular versions of the Teen Titans.

>hating based buddy
You have the worst taste ever

I wouldn't mind it so much if it wasn't entirely unfaithful to the who Beast boy is.

True, but I'm surprised they haven't promoted Raven to JLD.Cyborg got promoted to JL(for better or for worse).

The 2003 cartoon was good for Cyborg,Raven and Terra but bad for Beast Boy.

Since the cartoon writers have been turning him into a more comedic character.He was always funny but his humor was a mask for the more tragic aspects of his character.Most writers ignore his history with the Doom Patrol.

They didn't really need Raven to be a token anything in JLD like they did Cyborg and JL so she stayed in TT.

I thought Starfire's thing with Dick would protect her from being in TT again and possibly getting deaged, but apparently not.
Poor Dick, his two love interests got turned into teen girls while he can be a young adult.

Exactly, now there's a preconception of beast boy as light hearted comic relief when he is anything but.

The Ravagers comic tried to make him closer to his roots but that comic was awful and nothing much came of it.

God I hope this is ironic and Raven mellows out and stops being a cunt.
>How dare these people have a different religion! And how dare they have figurerines!

These goobers are definitely getting demon-murdered.

How great would this comic be if it just turned into a horror show for this family.

I'm hoping it goes full Berserk and just literally, mentally, and figuratively, fucks the family up.

A Raven series with her dealing with Berserk-esque demons would be pretty rad.

My theory about raven not being in the jld is that if she was it would have left beast boy as the only one of the 4 left in the teen titans which would just be weird so they would have had to move him as well.

Problem is the logical place for him to end up is the doom patrol which did not have an ongoing and ignoring a character from dcs most popular cartoon would be insane.

Shut up and take my money.

Nope
I think thats what they are fixing here.

Auctualy what was her own emo series about i never read that.

When all the demons stop fucking over the place they'll kick her out and call her a witch or some shit

I really genuinely honestly do not see what's wrong with this.

This is fun.

Mt freezes origin comes from btas doesn't it should we discard that as well.

That was touching as fuck user.

*start fucking

Thats just to touching to fap to.

He's the same god.

>Not having the character be fleshed out from the beginning is bad writing.
Nobody is denying they droped the ball on raven but theres no reason they cant fix the mistakes

it's impossible to take dramatic scenes with starfire seriously when she's named after a spice

Hopefuly it will be more about those other demons with trigon just as a backdrop

nah, such notions are merely catholic propaganda

Says you.

I love me some cilantro

Reminder that her sister Komand'r is basically "commander"

Damian should fuck both.

The bird costume is the best one she's ever had.

Easy. I'd have her villain be her angelic opposite, that's hellbent on destroying her.

>Have I made a mistake coming here?

Have I made a mistake reading this comic?

THE WAR-WITCH OF SKARTARIS
I'll come up with a motivation later, a name and powerset is enough for a first appearance. Have her go at Raven for a short arc before being defeated and escaping with why she did it as a mystery. Throw in a few filler issues until I think of what to do with her for a second appearance.

Okay, I'd get it if user had said Ohimesama, or Itadakimasu, or Dattebayo, or some other Shinigami Moon Language BS. But he said Chan.
Muggah, where you think you at? We all know what Chan means!
It's Uncle Jackie's last name!

>Trigon Possessed Justice League
You know seeing as the whole JL vs TT was just a ripoff of AvsX but with Raven instead of Phoenix Clone #4232- uh I mean Hope, it does bring up an interesting idea. What if the Avengers had been the ones to be possessed by the Phoenix Force after Tony split it into five parts?
Actually wasn't that a Marvel What If? If so, how did it go?
inb4 Not well, probably.

Robin... I'm already a demon.
I'm not trying to be funny with that. I'm literally a demon. I am a spawn of Hell. My mom boned the biblical Satan and nine months later I was born, amid the wailing of women and the gnashing of teeth. It was the whole Rosemary's Baby thing right down to the cultists and that one Japanese Tourist with a camera. I'm not entirely sure why he was in the movie, but they wanted to replicate the scene enough that they hired a Japanese man to take my baby photos.
What were we talking about again? Something about Snake Plisskin?

>Her face in the panel after she gets stripped
It's weird that she's so snarky right after being stripped in front of her hell brothers.
Weird, but arousing.

Why is the jewel between her eyes?
It makes her look fucking retarded.

>Tim Drake is Dead

They killed my favorite robin? WTH when did that happen?

You realize that this isn't the 1980s, right?

Hello mr. Snyder, how are things on the Justice League shoot?

We're fat and need cushions

Aunt: Raven dear, who is this Trigon ?
Raven: Nobody really ,aunt, just your bother in law ,my father , who is the devil and try to destroy the world multipule times

ara ara~

To be fair breh, those figures are disgusting.

And it's pretty awkward to be the only non-religious person in a situation like that, even if you're not the spawn of Satan.

>in this continuity Raven's mom is just a chuuni that stumbled on some real shit

holy shit I haven't seen this pic in a decade.

Damien should Fucking die for good

He's alive but being held prisoner by a mysterious man.

Wait a second
>everybody wants to ship barbra with somebody
>everybody wants to ship damian with somebody

Damibabs is the solution.

Name's Plissken... but call me Snake.

Shes saying her Mom "knew" God didn't exist so she went out to find Trigon

DC God is awesome. We need more ScottyGod fucking around with the mystic guys

>already standing in the middle of the house
>Hi! I'm your aunt Alice!
>And these are our kids!
This is some really clunky dialogue.

>Who's Trigon? You were shouting his name.
Kid must have never had a wet dream.

It's still Trigon. Just because he's not physically there doesn't mean it's not about him. Try not being an idiot.

>This auctualy looks incredibly well done.
How deep in denial are you people? This is going to suck all of the ass, but you're desperate to defend this garbage for some reason.

>But she does not have any preexisting elements to use.
Then don't give her a fucking solo! Holy shit, this is not hard to figure out.

>Are you going to complain that the new cyborg is finaly giving him a rogues gallery.
Cyborg also belongs in the trash.
>HA BLOO HOO, MUH HUMANITY
>HA BLOO HOO, DADDY ISSUES
Why the fuck do people like the Teen Titans? They're all a bunch of annoying, shallow wastes of ink.

>This is some really clunky dialogue.
There are people do this, user.

...

Cool demon designs and we get a bit of Raven butt.

Lovely!

Implying that it won't be the mother who tries to molest her.

And that's the real reason why Raven's mom left and didn't believe in God.

The art was such a mess that I couldn't understand what was going on. Something about Raven buying shoes.

What the Hell is going on in this thread?

Byrne Robotics is leaking.

It's not that she's a trench coat atheist. Faith and religion would be awkward to someone like her who has actual experience with the supernatural, demons, hell, and all that.

>A Raven series with her dealing with Berserk-esque demons would be pretty rad.
N52 Aquaman had an arc like this. They were called Giant-Born. It was rad.

I like it.

>then don't give her a solo
It's a miniseries

I know they're demons but it's kind of weird for the brother to strip his sister. I'd expect magical torture, not sexual harassment.

I forgot the issue number but like a decade ago in Titans a similar event happen. Trigon summoned Raven to him in a dream and he conjured her up naked.

Everyone wants to fuck Raven. Even family.

Nah, they're just nudists and Raven is being a contrarian teenager.

A solo miniseries. Whatever. She doesn't have enough to support her own book. This is a terrible idea.

>Winnick

>She doesn't have enough to support her own book
Uh yeah she does?

Just found out that Marv Wolfman is 70 years old

No she doesn't. All she has is her daddy issues and crying like a little bitch.

>new conflicts, new enemies, anything but another demon.

I've always wanted her to go up against something that is wholly based in the material universe, not something supernatural but a master of our universe and properties.

Something like a C'tan I guess.

>I've always wanted her to go up against something that is wholly based in the material universe
You mean like, regular supervillains? The kind of enemies she faced all the time as a Titan?

Seriously, dumbass. Think.

I meant something like a C'tan. Google it if you don't know what that means.

>no she doesn't
Yeah she does m8. She has all the teen titan stuff plus all the Magic and demon elements too.

Maybe one day he'll get tired of stealing good Raven solo stories from us.

He's talking about the demiurge numbnuts.

She's a half-demon witch. That idea alobe is enough for a series.

I get why her last costume had that visor now...

Yeah, in the same way "all-female Avengers lineup" is apparently enough for a series. That's not a premise, it's a gimmick. What does this half-demon witch actually do?

>She has all the teen titan stuff
Then why the hell give her a solo series? Just put her in the Titans book.

>then why give her a solo
Why give anyone a solo? Because we want to try something new.

>that's not a premise
Yes it is.
>what does this half demon witch
Anything. She can fight the forces of hell or she can try to fight destiny and just live a normal life.

New is not always good. Here's a new idea: let's build a spaceship out of broken desks.

That's a fucking terrible idea, but because it's new, apparently that makes it okay. Dumbass.

>that's not a premise
How is that not a premise?
>it's a gimmick
How is it a gimmick?

>new is not always good
Won't know till you try yourself

>new is not always good
You never know until you try. You have to take chances with writing or else you just stagnate and repeat the same old shit.

>Anything. She can fight the forces of hell or she can try to fight destiny and just live a normal life.

>have no solid ideas for what your series is about
>do it anyway because you think this one idea is interesting
I direct you back to A-Force. Shit like this is one of the reasons comics are such a crippled medium.

>How is that not a premise?
A premise generally refers to what's actually going on.

>How is it a gimmick?
A gimmick is generally something from which to base a premise on.

Say you have the king of an undersea civilization and his queen. Okay, what's the story involving these two characters? What are they actually doing that makes anyone want to read about them?

I'm willing to give it a chance if the Christian family turn out to be decent people who aren't one note stereotypes. I have no patience for authors who think it's okay to make Christians total unthinking drone jokes as though it's not just as lazy and offensive as making Africans tribesmen with spears and bones through their noses.

>premise generally refers to what's going on
That's not what a premise is, A premise is an underlying idea.

>a gimmick is generally something from which to base a premise on
No it's not. You're confusing Gimmicks for ideas.

>she can try to fight destiny and just live a normal life

Here's an idea. With the upmost reluctance, she embraces her destiny and makes it pretty fucking clear that she's going to self sabotage and choose the path with the highest possibility of failure. Eventually the forces of Hell just think fuck it and give her the boot.

It's like Shinji Ikari is in the room with us.

Some faggot who likes to derail Raven threads. Nothing important.

Bird's have faces user.

>Then don't give her a fucking solo!

By this logic there should be no new characters ever, because making up things is hard.

I don't know but there's something about this design that I absolutely love.

That family look so kind and awesome,

>That family look so kind and awesome on the surface.

yeah they probely are demons or some shit, but Heyyy

They're either dysfunctional or Satanists or both.

I think that she was a bit to close to ravens mother in age for that to work

>Anyone who shows any interest of Raven inevitably turns out to be a fan of the cartoon

Yes, so why can't someone write a Raven that more in line with TT? Goddammit that show was so good, especially if you think about what they made out of all the insufferable garbage the heroes were in the comics.

>Yes, so why can't someone write a Raven that more in line with TT?
Yes, let's sink even further into creative bankruptcy by ripping off the adaptation.

But that's using pre-existing elements of the character.

No it isn't. That version of her was made up wholesale for the cartoon. She sure as hell didn't have shadow telekinesis in the comics, nor did she act like a sawed off Daria.

Worse, they could be /trash/-tier conservatives. Impossible to talk with, act like only they know the right things and most of their answers to any questions is "[BIBLE CHAPTER X:X]".

Would've been nice if we could be introduced to people whose identities aren't immediately plastered all over the pages in bright colours.

You know. Subtlety.

No that cartoon version was a new take on the character.

I dont understand your point. If they can only write uninspired garbage, why shouldn't they copy the parts which worked, if that elevates it to being good?

There is no shame in using what is good, to create something better. especially if its already a part of the Character.
Thats like saying, a cheeseburger tastes better than a hamburger but you won't ever use cheese, because it wasn't your idea, and instead put a piece of rubber between the buns.

A family just like this was big in the local afterschool Christian group. They were massive hypocrites, too.

>If they can only write uninspired garbage, why shouldn't they copy the parts which worked, if that elevates it to being good?
Because it didn't work. Again, her personality in the cartoon boils down to "goth knock off Daria".

>There is no shame in using what is good, to create something better. especially if its already a part of the Character.
There's plenty of shame, in that you had to rip something off in order to give the character anything to work with. If a character is so bland that other people have to make shit up for them, it's a bad character.

>her personality in the cartoon boils down to "goth knock off Daria".
Which is clearly worse as...
What is her character in the comics about anyway? Her Daddyissues?

> If a character is so bland that other people have to make shit up for them, it's a bad character.

Again, whats the problem? Now it can be a good character. Or are you one of those guys who have to insist that every single issue has to be canon and a change for the better is therefore not allowed?

>What is her character in the comics about anyway? Her Daddyissues?
Exactly.

>Now it can be a good character.
No it can't. You have to flesh out a character before you start the story. That's writing 101. Raven represents a fundamental failure of storytelling, and she belongs in the trash with all the other poorly conceived concepts polluting the DCU.

>People are still responding to Ravenbaiter

It's pretty fucking ridiculous

>You have to flesh out a character before you start the story.

Thats correct in books, and most media. But I regard cape comics more like James Bond movies. There are good ones and bad ones and the bad ones simply get ignored to death. And every few years someone changes stuff to capture a new audience. If you compare Goldfinger to Golden Eye for example they are both really good, but you wouldn't believe they are of the same franchise with the same charaters if it wouldn't get stated.
And James Bond still is a fucking awesome series.

>"Comic books don't have to follow the rules of storytelling."
Well no wonder comics are such garbage.

>And James Bond still is a fucking awesome series.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No it's not.

Her personality in the comics was an emotionally unavailable, manipulative, new agey, 'spiritual' loner with daddy issues.

She was kind of a bitch. She make Wally fall in love with her when he didn't wanna help her out. She tried to do the same to Dick after they finally killed Trigon and she stopped repressing everything.

>Comic books don't have to follow the rules of storytelling
They have to follow them in the story arcs, not in the entirety of 30 Years of created content. No one will read all the books she has ever been featured in in their entirety.

>James Bond is a bad series
Ok, the stupid ones with Craig are garbage, but i simply deny their existance and hope the next iteration will copy "Codename Uncle" or even "Kingsmen" which would be an improvent over Craig. Or simple produce them like in the Pre-Craig era.

Ok, that is more than i could gather from reading a dozen issues before getting disinterested. Thanks!

Which version would you say is the "better" one: The Comic one or the TT Cartoon one?

>No one will read all the books she has ever been featured in in their entirety.
Do not ever pander to lazy people. Character consistency is fucking important. You shouldn't just not bother because readers are lazy little shits.

>>James Bond is a bad series
It is. All of it. It's a juvenile power fantasy.

And yes, I am aware I'm saying that in a discussion about superheroes. That's how full of shit James Bond is. The superpowered weirdos prancing around in tights and making anyone with a basic knowledge of anatomy cry, are the more dignified ones in this comparison.

Really? Hating on James Bond? Calling it a stupid power fantasy while reading loads of Cape Comics?

I think there is nothing to talk about anymore, you are clearly crazy.

Not (Them) but I'm a fucking sucker for the TT cartoon incarnation. Even the TTGo version is cute to me.

I have fallen hard for the snarky loner goth.

It's funny, because this solo isn't promising to actually do anything "new", it's already a rehash of her past stories.

If you seriously think any James Bond story is on par with Saga of The Swamp Thing or All Star Superman then you're crazy.

>those little black beady eyes on her hood
CUTE

>you have to flesh out the character before you start the story.
No you don't.

>because it didn't work
But it did.
>you had to rip something off
It's the same character.

Same. Thing.

Yes you do. I mean, if you want the work to suck because of bland characters nobody can get invested, I guess that's your decision, but it will indeed suck.

>But it did.
No it didn't. How many times must I use the phrase "sawed off Daria" here?

>It's the same character.
It's an alternate media take on the character. It's functionally a different character altogether.

I'm saying that you're wrong and clearly never ever actually written anything.

You can repeat yourself all you want but that won't make you anymore right.

...

DC HIRE THIS MAN

Jokes aside, I really like this one

let this thread die

Almost 500 post for a preview Waifuism

Duh.

Pretty much

What separates an interesting character from an interesting character? Which characters are inherently interesting to you, and why?

...

Geez, what happenned here?

Nah theyre christians
Daddy is molesting both the older kids and mommy is going to lock raven in the basement for being a sinful whore

>yfw the family are actually Trigon cultists posing as Catholics.

...

No idea

...