Revisiting The Dark Knight

I am. Batman v Superman has ten times the imagination of The Dark Knight. Also it has better action, better designs,and Affleck is a more interesting Batman than Bale.

Still better than Winter Soldier or any MCU movie for that matter

Well yeah, never said it wasn't.

ITT: we complain about popular things and praise hated things

Say that to my face

Not everyone agrees.

The problem with these films is Batman's lack of a smaller version of his cowl that he slips over the head of his penis. If those tiny bat ears ain't scraping against her G-spot, she ain't getting the love she deserves.

The 3rd movie was the worst by far.

Yeah, but the second one is the most over praised.

This Joker becoming a cultural icon still baffles me. There is absolutely nothing new, interesting or groundbreaking about this interpretation of character.
Is it because of Ledger's death?

>Is it because of Ledger's death?
At least partly, but I would say he gives the best performance in the film.

The performance blew a lot of people away.

Batman Begins sucked so much fucking cock.
Its the same non-commital bullshit as Rises with shit action, pseudo realism, and a single terrible villain instead of two so-so villains.

How the fuck is anyone here supposed to fix a film that's been out for eight years

You're just looking to validate your shitty opinion by arguing against other shitty opinions

okay.

I'll need 100 million dollars for budget though

Begins had three villains

he did a legit good job of being unpredictable. the magic trick, the nurse scene, sticking the phone-activated bomb inside that guy, on first viewing you really don't know what he;s gonna do next

More excuses
At least this guy has ideas, we'll set up a kickstarter and sort this shit out.

You're an excuse

>my opinion is valid because its popular

>what is Nazism
>what is the critical and commercial failure of The Thing when it came out (and 2001 for that matter)
>what is any period of prevalent racism

why is Cred Forums so fucking terrible now

ITT: posts that dont actually say anything

This movie still holds up. The lack of blood to cater to a pg 13 is distracting and the constant long winded speeches directly explaining the movie's themes to you are obnoxious but it's a well acted, well written and well shot movie, and wtf the action is amazing, the truck scene is a milestone in itself, and Heath Ledger is of course amazing. How can you possibly say it hasn't aged well?

...

nah, Begins goes way more mystical/surreal with the League and Scarecrow hallucinations. Especially that one scene with him on the flaming horse, shit was metal.

Why must you turn this thread into a house of lies?

Eh, its alright. I showed it to my GF for the first time about a year ago and she liked it, but wasn't blown away or anything.

Talk to me again in 8 more years, and see if you still think it holds up as well as the Dark Knight.

holy shit, why does it bother you so much that people like BvS? I'm not even the user you were replying to, but I like the movie, and cant understand why it triggers everyone's autism that people like this.

are you a literal retard?

>More excuses
No, stipulations.

It's one thing to say you like it, another thing to say it's better than Dark Knight.

It was the swan song of the Bush era, so naturally it feels a bit dated.

because people like complaining for the sake of complaining

I like it better than the Dark Knight, it is definitely more ambitious and has a much better batman. I've rewatched BvS way more than TDK.

Again, why does this trigger you?

but why complain about this, specifically, more than other things?

we need a Cred Forums anthropologist

People disagree sometimes dude.
Fair enough
Chill out.

>what is Nazism
A violent, totalitarian political movement opposed to the democratic ideas of pupillary rule, that came to power partly through trickery and subversion of actual popular rule.
Your argument is shit.

>trigger
It's one thing to have absolutely shit taste in movies, and yet another to parrot buzzwords you don't know the meaning of.

thats not answering the question, why does someone having a different taste in movies make you feel the need to attack them for it?

>more ambitious

yeah, no. The Dark Knight did a bunch of radically new things while BvS is a clusterfuck bunch of unimpressive crap nobody wanted and nobody thought they wanted and at the same time still plays it totally safe. The Dark Knight tries to be smart and IS smart for a Hollywood action film while BvS attempts to send several deep, meaningful messages while no one but Zack Snyder sees them.

>he thinks nazism wasnt the popular idea at the time of their rule

yeah they tricked people into believing it, but most people were still pro nazism, even if they couldnt understand it. Learn history you fuck.

Also, the point is that just because an opinion is popular, it doesnt mean its good. Do you really believe that if everyone shares an opinion, then it must be a good one?

>attack them for it
A Simpsons quote is an attack to you? Get thicker skin if you want to hang outside your safespace.

as someone who has the steelcase of BvS

just no

The Dark Knight isn't smart. There are really only two "themes" in it.

One really boring one of Batman's order causes Joker's chaos.

And another thats a commentary on the Patriot Act.
But thats not even the point, the question is, why does me having a different opinion than you, make you feel the need to argue with me?

because BvS was hyped to heck and back, and got a dismal score, some people feel distressed that their movie was slighted and start yelling that the score is meaningless, this triggers more people who believe that the score is infallible, causing an internet war,. the 2 sides were already heavily invested, but with people going against them, martyr syndrome kicks in, and they now have real enemies

TLDR; 2 groups of grognards butting heads, because one side claims the movie is satan, and the other side claims it is jesus

>still not answering the question

I'm not talking about the severity of the insult, im just saying, why do you feel the NEED to express your disagreement with this opinion?

If you have a different opinion from someone else, they have the right to disagree with you. If your opinion seems stupid, this will be pointed out to you.

>The Dark Knight tries to be smart and IS smart for a Hollywood action film

Piss off, what's smart about it?

>BvS is a clusterfuck bunch of unimpressive crap nobody wanted and nobody thought they wanted and at the same time still plays it totally safe.

How exactly does it play it safe?

Well, you're right. I can't argue with that.

I just want to be able to talk about the superhero related media I like without it devolving into hyperbole and slights over different opinions.

Because I think it's a stupid opinion and deserves to be ridiculed.

I watched both of them recently and BvS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TDK

>BvS fans having run out of other companies to bash, quickly turn on their own

jeez, chill out
people thinking food fight was better than BvS exist, i cant imagine how you feel about them

I'm not arguing the right, I'm asking why does people liking BvS, specifically, elicit a response from the anons in question.

But what about it deserves ridicule? Why do you find it so stupid its worth going after? Why can't you just move on?

>one user is the whole fanbase

okay

I agree that you're entitled to your opinion, but if you're going to post it on a platform such as this one you have to expect people to reply to it, specially if your ideas are unpopular.

If you dislike people disagreeing with you to the point you ask them why they're doing it then maybe you shouldn't be posting at all.

>what about it deserves ridicule?
The movie is bad and people who like it are silly. Is that simple enough?
>worth going after?
I don't understand what this means. Nothing is "worth" a damn thing here.
>Why can't you just move on?
Because I like DC but feel insulted by these movies, and anyone who likes them is part of the problem.

why do you feel insulted by the movies user? I'm a big DC fan too, been reading them since middle school, and I loved BvS.

It's smart because it has well developed characters and handles themes that work in the film, not to mention it also has many great directing choices, like to use practical effects as much as possible.

BvS plays it safe by shoving in as much shit as possible to set up tons of sequels, introduces Doomsday and Wonder Woamn so they could set up sequels and have a poorly CGI'd explosion action fuckfest because they had no faith in the concept of two ideas clashing, it in no way challenges the audience.

>why do you feel insulted by the movies
Because they're horrible and treat the characters in ways that just infuriate me.
>and I loved BvS
And it's because of people like you that I'll never see another good DC movie in my lifetime.
At least Marvel's okay. Though if I'd read anything other than Daredevil and Punisher MAX I might hate them too, who knows.

Okay, but be specific. How did they treat the characters horribly?

What's the point of rehashing the same criticisms you've heard hundreds of times already?
I'm not going to bother with all that again.

Because I want to know, to you user, how these movies offended you. What exactly they did to make you personally angry.

It's weird how you're arguing that a totalitarian government is bad, while advocating a rejection of the ideas of democracy. I guess that leaves me to wonder what kind of totalitarianism you prefer.

No, it was nowhere near as simple as the Nazi party having the majority's support. There was political maneuvering, myriad fractured parties, a poorly constructed central government, and sometimes outright violence from Nazi party thugs against their rival parties before they even controlled the government. Your argument is incredibly stupid, if you think you can point to Nazis as proof that you can't trust the majority.

Well, it didn't take long to start mentioning BvS, you never fail to disappoint me, Cred Forums.

everyone knows batman and robin was the best

Well developed? The themes work well? Great directing choices? The only specific thing you said is that it was good they used practical effects.

And if there's one thing BvS doesn't do it's play it safe. Batman straight up murders people, Superman is an alien/godlike figure held in suspicion by the public, there's a dream sequence/vision of an Apokoliptic future dropped in the middle of the movie with no warning, the casting is way off the wall for Lex Luthor, Superman actually dies and stays dead the whole rest of the film, PISS JAR. Those aren't safe choices.

Why are people talking about nazis?

godwins law, google it

we arent talking about how they got into power, yes I know all about the thuggery including the burning down of the previous government, I even studied in Berlin in a course specifically about the history of modern Berlin. They still became the majority opinion at some point.

And how can you be so fucking stupid as to think that just because an idea is accepted by the majority its correct?

So slavery was a good idea just because everyone accepted it? Any form of racism? Are puffy shoulder suits still a good idea because they were popular in the 80s?

The original post this chain was about was bitching that people disliked things they deemed popular, thats a really stupid line of reasoning.

If it wasnt for going against whats popular we would never have had Crumb, Miller, or any underground comics, or any reactionary movement that started as a minority.

this
>Batman doesn't kill
>Gotham is a surreal garish nightmare
>2.2/3 score on the faithfulness of villains
>campy on the outside, serious on the inside
>bike stunts

Okay.
Batman is dumb rather than the world's greatest detective. His motivations for wanting to go after Superman seem paranoid in a bad way, not in the "I'll prepare for everything just in case" way.
Also there's the issue of all the deaths. Sure he's killed people before, but when it's a story like the Tim Burton movies that aren't meant to be taken seriously, I can accept that stuff. When it's in a movie that expects to be taken seriously, I'm going to treat the deaths seriously as well.
So basically not muh Batman. I'm going to type that before you can so you can't use it to discount these points.
Superman is petty and brooding, not muh Superman.
Lex Luthor is literally Mark Zuckerberg and it makes me cringe to watch him since the first time I see him. Not muh Luthor.
Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen is a CIA agent who gets killed off because lol fuck comics amirite?
Doomsday and Superman's death are done so early on in the franchise that they lose all impact.
The movie gives us the rehashed origin for Batman that we've seen more than enough times, but Wonder Woman comes out of nowhere with no explanation just because.

Is that enough for you?

>we arent talking about how they got into power
We were until you just decided it was inconvenient for you, and tried to divert.

>Batman doesn't kill
Let Batman MURDER!

Do you really need this shit explained to you? Do you really need an explanation of Bruce Wayne in the Nolan Trilogy?

Son, you were the one who focused on the nazi part of my argument. Lets just remove the nazis all together.

Is an opinion correct just because it is the popular one?

>His motivations for wanting to go after Superman seem paranoid in a bad way
That's because they are bad, that's the point.
>Superman is petty and brooding, not muh Superman.
Ok he broods kind of, but what makes him petty?
>Not muh Luthor.
He's more interesting than what Cred Forums would have cast
>Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen is a CIA agent who gets killed off because lol fuck comics amirite?
I have to give it to Snyder, that was funny.

.

>Son, you were the one who focused on the nazi part of my argument
Because it was the most idiotic part.

>that's the point
So you're saying it's SUPPOSED to suck?
>what makes him petty
His behavior towards Batman. The whole "consider this mercy" bullshit. The way he stopped the car. It all just comes off as him being a butthurt piece of shit with Superman's powers rather than Superman.
>He's more interesting
There is nothing more to be gained from talking to you. Bye.

>Do you really need an explanation of Bruce Wayne in the Nolan Trilogy?

He's just your standard fascist.

why does superman have like nothing to say in this movie
why does superman not contrast with batman at all
why are both batman and superman total hypocrites
why is lex luthor mark zuckerberg if he became a supervillain and developed a piss fetish
why is bvs so desperate to set up as many sequels as possible and rush wonder woman, doomsday, superman's death and more
why is it a clusterfuck of the dark knight, the dark knight returns, man of steel 2, the justice league prequel movie and the death of superman
why are there no establishing shots
why does the extended version focus on lois lane investigating some fucking iraqie terrorists
why was lex luthor trying to deal with superman by creating a monster that is more uncontrollable than superman
why is the cgi so crap
why wasnt this movie just man of steel 2 with lex vs supes
why was wonder woman in the movie the only thing she did was check her email to set up the justice league and then fight a monster
why was the MARTHA scene a thing i get they wanted to convey batman realizing he was becoming a monster but why did it have to be handled so poorly

no. Only Jason and occasionally Damien should murder.

>His behavior towards Batman. The whole "consider this mercy" bullshit. The way he stopped the car. It all just comes off as him being a butthurt piece of shit with Superman's powers rather than Superman

He'd just talked to a woman whose family was torn apart by Batman from his perspective. He was mad.

his origin as batman, his transformation in to batman, his life as both bruce wayne and batman are explored, his relationships, his personality and his ideals are all explored. That is a well developed character and that goes for most major characters in the movie.

>Batman is dumb rather than the world's greatest detective.

Idk, the only dumb thing he does is not realize that the White whatever is a boat and gets manipulated by Luthor, one of the smartest people in the world.

He is able to find the asian sex slaves and free them, he is able to hack the KGBeast's phone & find Martha.

There really isnt much more detective work for him to do, and part of the point is that he is blinded by his paranoia, being more brutal instead of a detective. Its partially a commentary on where the Nolan movies, and pop culture as a whole, has taken Batman in his adapted works.

>His motivations for wanting to go after Superman seem paranoid in a bad way, not in the "I'll prepare for everything just in case" way.

Its supposed to be bad, its not a good thing that he was paranoid. Part of the story is him realizing that and Superman basically forgiving him and they team up.

>Also there's the issue of all the deaths. Sure he's killed people before, but when it's a story like the Tim Burton movies that aren't meant to be taken seriously, I can accept that stuff. When it's in a movie that expects to be taken seriously, I'm going to treat the deaths seriously as well.

Like I said before, part of the point is that he has been able to kill in every live action adaptation up until this point (except Adam West of course), so Snyder actually gives a reason for it this time, and makes it part of his arc that he returns to the no kill rule.

>Superman is petty and brooding, not muh Superman.

Except for destroying the truck in MoS, he really didnt do anything petty. He does brood, but he has good reason for it, and there is plenty of brooding superman in the comics and even in the DCAU, Smallville, and Superman Returns.

1/2

>Lex Luthor is literally Mark Zuckerberg and it makes me cringe to watch him

Nah, Zuckerberg wasnt nearly as eccentric. This Luthor was based on his more mad scientist, Golden Age/Silver Age/Birthright depiction, and I believe him getting the haircut at the end is meant to be his transformation into modern age luthor. But time will tell.

>Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen is a CIA agent who gets killed off because lol fuck comics amirite?

Pretty sure that was just a cover identity, and they already had Jenny Olsen in MoS.

>Doomsday and Superman's death are done so early on in the franchise that they lose all impact.

They are meant to server a different purpose in the narrative of the movies than in the comics. Here its Superman proving his goodness to Batman, Luthor, and the world, while also paying for the mistake of killing Zod in MoS (since Doomsday would not exist if he didn't kill Zod, its literally his past coming back to haunt him).

>The movie gives us the rehashed origin for Batman that we've seen more than enough times, but Wonder Woman comes out of nowhere with no explanation just because.

The movie is about Batman and Superman, its not about Wonder Woman. She is a supporting cast member, Batman is a main character. And his origin doesnt even take 3 minutes.

2/2

Superman doing the "consider this mercy" thing was him acting out of anger, he just saw how brutal Batman could become (even though we learn this was another manipulation of Luthor) and it was a mistake. He acted before trying to talk to him, and when he approaches Batman the next time, trying to actually talk to him first, Batman attacks him and almost kills him.

Superman made a mistake and paid for it, then he learns from it. Its one of the core themes of the movie.

why did we need to see batman's origin again
why was batman lifted by bats
why does batman brand people that is weird
if people love superman so much why does it look like everyone just protests him all the time
why is every instance of superman saving the day just completely fucking miserable
why did jimmy olsen die
why is there nothing of superman working at the daily planet
why is there still so much forced christian imagery in the movie
if they wanted to convey an unhinged batman why was him killing everything not a big deal at all

>still refusing to engage in the actual argument

Is an opinion correct just because it is the popular one?

Without even getting into the debate, you're gonna call two face and the joker "so-so" fucking villains? Are you SERIOUS?

The Dark Knight Joker ALONE is one of the most iconic villains in film history whether you like it or not, but the reworking of two-face in the film medium is such a great depiction of a man unraveled that it fixes the character appropriately to the films narrative that you can't even argue him as asecondary afterthought. Harveys transformation is integral to the film and pulled off excellently in a way that still maintains the soul of the character.

I'm sorry but you're just fucked up about the whole thing.

>why does superman have like nothing to say in this movie
Most of his lines were cut in the theatrical, in the extended cut he has more.
>why does superman not contrast with batman at all
He does, Superman is constantly wary not to overstep in use of his power, the only time we see him do so is to save Lois. Batman takes the law into his own hands, and he acts out of fear at what Superman's power could do if misused.
>why are both batman and superman total hypocrites
"Men with power obey neither policy nor principle Miss Lane, no one is different, no one is neutral."
>why is lex luthor mark zuckerberg if he became a supervillain and developed a piss fetish
He's pretty disturbed.
>why is bvs so desperate to set up as many sequels as possible and rush wonder woman, doomsday, superman's death and more
Cinematic Universe baby, it's the new paradigm
>why is it a clusterfuck of the dark knight, the dark knight returns, man of steel 2, the justice league prequel movie and the death of superman
It's deep in the lore.
>why are there no establishing shots
Who cares?
>why does the extended version focus on lois lane investigating some fucking iraqie terrorists
Because Luthor used them to frame Superman.
>why was lex luthor trying to deal with superman by creating a monster that is more uncontrollable than superman
He sees Superman's power and goodness as a contradiction that must be exposed or destroyed. Also I don't think he cares if the world gets destroyed, seeing as he calls Darkseid to earth.
>why is the cgi so crap
Seemed fine to me.
>why wasnt this movie just man of steel 2 with lex vs supes
That would be less interesting.
>why was wonder woman in the movie the only thing she did was check her email to set up the justice league and then fight a monster
She was out of the fighting game.
>why was the MARTHA scene a thing i get they wanted to convey batman realizing he was becoming a monster but why did it have to be handled so poorly
I thought it worked well.

Begins was so boring i forgot that scarecrow was supposed to be a villain.
Whos the third? That asian mentor with 5 minutes of screentime?

...

It's true though.

Joker is iconic but gets minimal screentime and his motivations are fucking pleb-tier.
Twoface's transformation isnt as great as you think it is.

You both seem to be arguing the same point, but you're the one who asserted the Nazis as being a good example of the popular vote for the argument against democracy.

The Nazis manipulated every level of political involvement with physical force and coersion, and I by no means mean to absolve the German citizenry of responsibility with these statements. They chose to ignore the warmongering and later genocidal aspects of German policy, but early on the Nazi party relied on electoral corruption to the point that it is now a lesson against it for democratic peoples everywhere.

I was never arguing against democracy, often popular opinions are not democratically decided. Did everyone get together and just start being racist one day? No, it came from a lot of different places.

Now answer the question:
Is an opinion correct just because it is the popular one?

Of course not.

Reply.

>and IS smart
It's no smarter than your average Jason Bourne movie, the only difference is that the dialogue is more wooden because of trying too hard to be serious cinema.

Those are goddamn predictable with the exception of nurse scene, and it still doesn't warrant all "OMG BEST VILLAIN EVER" bullshit that was going on after TDK.

so its Snyder himself that is posting all the threads about the themes and symbolism in BvS?

Thank you. I'll admit using nazis was hyperbole and bad form. I apologize.

>starts a thread about The Dark Knight
>BvS and Nazism is talked about more than the movie
What the fuck happened?

>revisiting
for fuck's sake, you pretentious slime

Dark Knight is talked out.

All three of them were boring messes

Nah
Keep dreaming

Yes
He's the only good part

You should reread your post
It doesn't even hold up

OP here, watched Batman 1989, and now Batman Returns at the moment. Batman felt kinda stuck in the 80s and sorta stilted. Returns is pretty modern in comparison so far.

>why does superman have like nothing to say in this movie
Snyder hates him, it is known.
>why are both batman and superman total hypocrites
I'm assuming this is the batman killing thing? If you have read the comics you'll know Batman lost it after Jason Todd died and started being much more brutal, the next batman film will explore how this happened.
as for supes, again, snyder hates him, it is known.
>why is lex luthor mark zuckerberg if he became a supervillain and developed a piss fetish
Lex JUNIOR is a spoiled cunt, he's acting the same way most of us would if we had his upbringing. You know, being son to the smartest villain, politician and a rich cunt will do bad things to your psyche, this was explored in the painting scene, to a degree and they wanted to target a more modern audience and take a risk.
Luthor Jr being JR is the contingency; based off reception they'll kill him and bring in Sr, or keep him.
>why is bvs so desperate to set up as many sequels as possible and rush wonder woman, doomsday, superman's death and more
Snyder hates superman, and i'd say there was company pressure to catch up to Disney.
>why is it a clusterfuck of the dark knight, the dark knight returns, man of steel 2, the justice league prequel movie and the death of superman
You mean the generally considered best pieces or work containing those characters? Oh, i don't know, maybe starting with good source material is important?
>why are there no establishing shots
Snyders directing comes from ads, he's good at action, not settings. This is WB's fault for choosing him to direct.
>why does the extended version focus on lois lane investigating some fucking iraqie terrorists
It doesn't? there's a few scenes. Deal with it you winey baby.

>why was lex luthor trying to deal with superman by creating a monster that is more uncontrollable than superman
Man beats god through gods own game; creation. Fuck you're a stupid nigger.
>why wasnt this movie just man of steel 2 with lex vs supes
Setting up future plot lines.
>why was wonder woman in the movie the only thing she did was check her email to set up the justice league and then fight a monster
She didn't want to be outed as a "super". She was awful though.
>why was the MARTHA scene a thing i get they wanted to convey batman realizing he was becoming a monster but why did it have to be handled so poorly

Because snyder fucking sucks. i'm glad you atleast understood the MARTHA scene.

...
Batman litterally hung a mental man from his belt as he glided over gotham, and he's killed other times too,
Fuck up, man.
>honestly aint even mad, but you niggas is dumb.
Just have fun and stop trying to be patritian.

Mos is my 2nd favorite movie & I fucking love Bvs but your full of fucking shit.

I think he means Zsasz. But I'd say it only counts as a cameo.

>Snyder hates him, it is known.
>Snyder hates superman
Then why does he give him the 2 most heroic moments in the film?
Why does he make him morally focused while Bruce is broken.
Why does he give him a more relevant & important death then he had in the comics?

Nah dude, it's fact.

Because Bvs while awesome is distinctly flawed.
TDK is fucking flawless outside Maggie not being particularly attractive.

>s a clusterfuck bunch of unimpressive crap nobody wanted and nobody thought they wanted
But I did desperately want more serious mature handling of Superman you presumptuous fucker.
>and at the same time still plays it totally safe
No it obviously did not since people won't shut the fuck up about Batman killing.

>TDK is fucking flawless

Except it's not.

Superman still has a disproportionately small amount of lines in this movie, and both Batman and Superman are brooding miserable murdering lunatics who scare the shit out of people, they do not contrast.

You do not seem to understand how half of these things affect BvS as a functional movie and not "OMG LOOK AT THIS COMIC BOOK THING!!!!!!!!!!!"

You don't understand the importance of establishing shots or giving characters a purpose or having their motivations make sense? Because it's good fucking filmmaking and storytelling? BvS is fucking cluttered and did not need Batman at all. Man of Steel got mixed reception so they rushed in Batman

Killing in self defense or defense of others is not murder (talking about Superman)

Establishing shots are in the UC.

>or giving characters a purpose or having their motivations make sense?
Not one single fucking motivation lacks sense in film, not fucking one.

My only regret is not being here sooner to save the anons from the bait

Lex Luthor? Is it EVER established why we hates Superman? Does Superman have a motivation? Wonder Woman?

establishing shots in the opening credits. one fucking scene at the beginning. no where else.

superman is a destruction monster in man of steel

Batman now has a strict no killing rule, that should be reflected in the movies. That example was what like 50 years ago?

Creating Doomsday makes no fucking sense from Lex's perspective still, he is making an even MORE destructive monster, I don't give a shit about Zack Snyder's hackjob symbolism.

>Is it EVER established why we hates Superman?
Yeah there's that whole speech on the tower. Basically he believes that Superman is a proxy for the God who abandoned him to his father's abuse. God cannot be both all good and all powerful so Lex seeks to either destroy or disgrace Superman. That and the fact that he cannot accept Superman having a power he can never equal despite all his knowledge.
>Does Superman have a motivation?
Yeah he tells it to Lois on that hotel balcony after the bombing. He's been trying to live the way his father saw it, trying to do good. But he worries that maybe he can never be what his father dreamed for him because the world is not that simple.
>Wonder Woman?
She says it to Bruce at Clark's funeral. She abandoned man's world a century ago because man made a world where standing together is impossible. It's only the world destroying threat of Doomsday that drives her to wield her sword again.

As for creating Doomsday, it seems like Lex would burn the world sooner than live in one he can't control. Which makes sense given him drawing Darkseid to earth.