What the fuck is his problem?

What the fuck is his problem?

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Do we know what happened to Jimmy Pestoes wife?

Divorce? Death?

He's insecure over his crappy food.

He's childish, probably has low self-esteem from being a single dad to three boys who he doesn't exactly appreciate, and loves to rub what victories he has into people who have it worse than him.

he's a closet homosexual

He's more successful than Bob, but at the end of the day Bob's more happy than Jimmy maybe because he has a loving wife or that he loves his children no matter how weird they are and they love him back while Jimmy feels ashamed of his own childs

Divorce. Jimmy once thought Andy and Ollie were with their mother when they had spent the night in an abandoned taffy factory.

Sometimes there seems to be a little of that too.

He's just an asshole pretty much

bob's cooking combined with jimmy's business sense would actually make a pretty damn good restaurant

All his children have down's syndrome

Except that they have completely different values and hate each other

If he and Bob could put aside their differences, they'd fucking rule Wonder Wharf. With Bob's cooking and Jimmy's marketing, they'd bring in so much money.

His father savagely violated him time and time again. and burgers were where he went when it started

Alas, the human condition

He's basically a parody of when a business intentionally tries to rival another business by placing a business close to each other.

Personally I like his character, but it's cringe-worthy when Bob takes the rivalry too far. It makes his degeneracy come out.

Insecure of his shitty food and resents his family.

He's actually a semi decent human being who is going through the woes of middle aged divorce while raising three kids, running a resturaunt where he knows he's stuck making the same thing over and over, with deep rooted issues of needing to be taken care of, and to be paid attention to.

Bob is literally the best thing for him, someone who'll always be there, someone always to pay attention. Someone who responds for every bit of bait he throws out.

Its a terrible symbiotic relationship between Pesto and Belcher.

It's pretty much the same for Bob, as the need to compete is the only thing to bring spice to his life seeing how he doesn't relate to any of his kids nor do they want to take over his business(except maybe Tina). Trying to one-up Pesto keeps him from being reminded he's stuck serving food on some crappy unforgettable street.

He's sad 'cause he can't pound that deliciousness.

actually when it comes down to it his kids do enjoy working in the restaurant and both Tina and Louise have expressed interest in taking it over
Gene is a bit to "special" to ever take it over, but everyone in the family prolly knows that

It's kind of funny. Jimmy and Bob are similar in their "Failure as Adults" however they fail for different reasons. Bob's a good cook and a good father, but stuck in a no go zone thats rather bland and is a horrible business man. Jimmy isn't a great father, a terrible cook, however is a great business man and makes something out of his no go zone.

It would really be interesting to see an episode where Jimmy Pesto and Bob Belcher had to work together.

I know it would be your usual.
"Ugh, not him."
Little bits of infighting
Some progress
Conflict where that progress is erased
Shit hits the fans
One of them redeems himself
Hope for friendship
Before going back to the status quo where they still hate each other.

But it would still be nice to see that development of their characters. Two failures, mirror images of one another. One with Burgers, the other with Pizza.

Bob loves where he is though. He's not super rich or super famous but he gets by doing what he loves with people he loves and who love him.

We could all be so lucky.

We've got at least two more seasons so there's time for such a thing to happen
Hope it ends at 9 or 10 so as to avoid Zombie Bob
Speaking of which, new episode on Sunday, "Flu-oise". Oh boy

I think he'd like being successful enough he could keep a small restaurant but instead of living month to month could actually build up a decent bit of savings

I mean, he loves his family and he knows damn sure if something were to happen to him, they'd be fucked

I always assumed he was in a relationship with the guy behind him

Jimmy would never admit it in public

Isn't it canon that he has a diaper/infant fetish?

I don't think its a "I love where I am" but a "I've grown attached to this hole in the wall."

I think Ep 100 really sealed the magic of Bob's resturaunt, sure its hairy man glued to a toilet, but he's our hairy man glued to a toilet that a lot of people like, or seem attracted to.

He's a good guy that Bob, and an Ocean Avenue without a Bob's Burgers would make the town a pretty empty place.

I guess the hole in the wall grew on Bob, as it did everyone else like dangerous green mold.

Wait, the new season starts this early?
AWWWWW YEAAAAAAAAAAAH

He practically is. Trev was the Pestos' fifth member on Family Fracas and Jimmy made an effort to apologize to him in "Best Burger. He's pretty much the only person Jimmy associates himself with.

Aside from Sal and the deviants at the Desire Dungeon.

they divorced
she couldn't stand Jimmy's shitty fetish anymore

Hey Edith.
Oh hey Marshmellow.

I thought that was Hugo's problem.

He's not the famous cook and you may walk by his dinner without a second thought if you weren't hungry, but he's got his regulars and the people like his food.

I love Bob's casual relationship/friendship with transvestites

>diaper fetish

>trap fetish

Bob is obviously the better man.

He's not really Italian.

Anyone else thought at first that Bob was a mexican? now it's obvious that he's not, but the first episodes i thought it

Is this the nutshack?

So

Jimmy Pesto Sr. and Trev

You're all seeing it too, right?

>what victories he has into people who have it worse than him
Which is ironic because financials aside, Bob is way better off than he is. Pesto might have more money and a better restaurant, but Bob has a far better family.

The fact that the family is so loving towards each other really makes the show for me.

Maybe I'm cheesy, but it really sets it apart from shows like Family Guy where it's more like "haha they hate each other"

Bob and Linda are really good parents too. I think one of the reasons Family Guy went to shit is they made Lois miserable, shrill, and mean.

Capitalism...

Bob's Burgers is his major competitor.

Bob couldn't stand his good friend warping the restaurant into a tiki theme despite loving the guy, I doubt he'd let Jimmy's soulless endeavors rule his business

This...it dosen't taste good, this isn't good, this isn't good at all!

*starts weeping*

In the show they say that there was a divorce, there's also a theory that says that she's Ginger

i am excite

ain nothin wrong with transvestites
i just miss when, yknow, they were men.. they didnt pretend not to be. this is just how they expressed their manliness and i was right there with em like fuck yeah dudes, wear the FUCK out of that shit.

right away i thought maybe.
then i heard linda and i immediately went full mediterranean (though mexicans are already half-ish)
then it occurred to me he and linda probably aren't related, so she's definitely jersey italian but he could be anything.. greek, north african, any ol thing. belcher is french, and france owned a lot of north africa.

it's a thing we're seeing more lately. the cynical 90s are over, people just want to have love again.
though unfortunately audiences are so disused to this that they immediately think anyone who gets along must be fucking
but then they also think anyone fighting must be fucking
then they also think anyone who's kinda awkward and has trouble talking to someone must be fucking

who goes for italian when they want burgers or vice versa?
despite loving the guy AND despite it working a treat and having exactly zero negative side-effects

I feel like that image is a stretch considering this show's artstyle but I like the idea anyway. Also, Ginger Pesto sounds like a great name.

who was this ginger again?

Linda's friend she's always on the phone with. We only see her once in a flashback, and from the back.

>nor do they want to take over his business(except maybe Tina).
What are you talking about? Louise has outright stated on multiple occasions that Bob is her favorite parent and she intends to take over the restaurant from him someday.

he's a diaperfag.

Bob is a better cook, but Jimmy is a better businessman.

oh that would be hilarious then

well sort of. he's a crook and a charlatan. why hugo the health inspector guy never goes nextdoor baffles me

What's next door?

er, i mean across the street. nextdoor is mort's and the empty shop.
point is why doesnt hugo bother jimmy pesto

youtu.be/EYWbatgKN4g

El Pollo Loco is selling Chicken Tenders and Fries because people are giving up eating healthy and Fried chicken is getting a rennaisance with KFC and Popeyes getting lots of profits this last quarter with extra crispy fried chicken.


Further more, high class and chain resturants that Identify as just Steakhouses are going out of business because beef is so common now that you can get steal anywhere.

Why go to Black Angus gor steak when Red Lobster, The Olive Garden and a dozen other resturants in the area serve steak?

You know...I was trmpted to just post those words alone. Here we are trying to break down his character and really the short answer is that he's just an asshole.

Seriously, what kind of guy constantly tries to get on his bosses good side by laughing at all their jokes?

Bob literally cucked hugo

He's not really Italian and his son is a pussy

If I see a restaurant with Chicken in the name, it is a 100% valid assumption that they will have chicken tenders and fries. At the very least, chicken tenders and some alternate side dish.

I don't even like chicken tenders but if I entered a chicken place and the menu didn't have them I'd be a little confused unless I was at a fucking suit and tie establishment.

i have no idea what your point is
youre either hungry for burgers or italian food.

nevermind that, hugo cares about his job, he doesnt only do it to piss off bob

If Hugo could get Bob he would, Bob just actually runs a clean kitchen and only uses good ingredients. If Hugo could find so much as the slightest infraction he would shut down bob in an instant. Hell he tried to get him on the cannibalism thing way back in the pilot based on hearsay

my point is, and has always been, why is he ignoring pesto's

Because we only see Pesto sparingly and have no idea what's going on over there

>I think one of the reasons Family Guy went to shit is they made Lois miserable, shrill, and mean.
She was always that way though. Remember the time she learned karate? Or the time she learned Peter was a drunken savant piano player, and she made him get way too wasted before a performance because she was insecure? Or the episode where she became a showgirl for a bar, and Peter got upset at every guy in town openly ogling her, and the moral was "Gee Lois, ahm sorry that I didn't appreciate your childhood dream to sing in front of horny drunks"?

Or the one where Peter produced a harmless silly schlock production of The King & I, and she explicitly hated it up to and including screaming in pretentious theaterfag rage at the audience for daring to applaud? Even fuckin' Chris was smart enough to tell she was being
>A bitch.

im not hip with the scene that these young boys who are pretending to be girls are nowadays, but i think crossdressers and trannys are two different breeds aint they?

they used to be at least.

When is naked rollerskater going to get his own episode?

What would he be? German(ic)

I think he's a Polack, or whatever Poplopovich is.

sounds like a hybrid of greek and russianoid
which isnt that weird if you go back far enough in history except i dont think people just rammed names together like that

Because despite how much a loser the show tries to insist Bob is he's actually pretty well off
>has loving wife
>his kids are cool
>people like him
Then we have Pesto
>wife divorced him
>1 of his kids is a hipster loser and the other 2 are borderline mentally retarded
Despite what business success he has, he's still personally a bitter miserable person

only the twins
Jimmy Jr. is just gay

Remember the episode where Bobs place had mold and Hugo shut the whole place down? At at the end of the episode he sees the same mold at Jimmy's and just tells him to put some bleach on it? Yeah

Did someone call for Marshmallow?

Oh, hey marshmallow

He secretly wants the Bob D.

>Listen here, Bob. You and I BOTH know you're slinging homebrews on the side, and if my boss wasn't telling me "you're fired if you waste any more time on this case", I'd NAIL you for it.

I want to see Hugo's boss in a future episode. I love the idea of someone who doesn't care about Hugo's petty bullshit and just wants him to do his fucking job.

Which recurring enemy of Bobs is the least likable (as in you don't like them): Jimmy Pesty or Hugo?

Jimmy Pesto is at least relatable in how pathetic he is. Like that episode where Bob can't bring himself to pull the trigger and expose him as a fraud, he's just a dumb child in a man's body. It helps that, ostensibly, Bob and Pesto are on equal grounds, and Bob kind of consents to Pesto's bullshit whenever he acknowledges him.

Hugo, meanwhile, is just a bitter, spiteful, hateful little troll that also manages to hold total power over Bob and his family. If he could, he would destroy their lives in an instant, and there wouldn't really be anything Bob and family could do to stop him.

Pesto is sad. Hugo has no soul.

Nah, I generally figured the Belchers were Mediterranean on some level. Italian or Greek.

His Italian restaurant has to price itself competitively with the hamburger joint across the street. The sooner Bob is gone, the sooner Pesto's prices can go up to market value.

I mean "Belcher:" so there's some french in there somewhere.

Headcanon ending they become friends and invent the pizza burger
You realize one has an Italian place and the other one makes burgers right?

Plus his food legit sucks balls

Jimmy doesn't have to complete with Bob
Bob's real problem is that he runs a burger place and nobody wants to go out of their way for a burger
Pizza place is different since that's where you take your family or friendsbob should pack his shit and start over in a completely different location but he is too fucking sentimental for that

I don't know about you but I'd take a good burger over okay Pizza any day of the week.

Because its not FUNNY to have Hugo on Pesto's ass.

The thing is now you're supposed to assume a crossdresser means it and isn't just having fun I guess.

idk, whatever, I'm just staying out of it until the crazy people find another cause du jur.

That doesn't stop them from being competitors. You realize foot traffic can go, "Hey, that burger place looks way better, lets go there!", right?

Like the big brother from the Drew Carey show?

He was portrayed as a crossdresser and he was straight.

Yes you
You would you alone that's the point
When you go to Jimmy's you take your family, you drive to Jimmy's from far away, you call for delivery
Bob's entire business replys on people going to the park in the pier and stoping by for a burger because its cheaper than pieer food
You would eat his burger but would you take the car there? Would you walk half an hour there?
There are other burger places, Bob's costumers are always fandoms except for Mort and teddy because they are the only two people constantly around
If Bob moved closer to the part of the Pier where people work or just about any busy area he would do great the pier does really bad and nobody goes there

No
I was making fun of the fact that Bob makes burgers and Jimmy makes pizza and there is no realistic way of combining the two for the perfect ending everyone talks about

I'd say instead they begrudgingly invent the pizza burger together but only if Tina and Jimmy Jr. are in a real relationship.

>would you walk half an hour
For a good burger? Yeah.

Pizza is more of a family place.
Bob's issue is it's not really an inviting joint. Jimmy set up his place like an Olive Garden. Nobody goes for the food but more the atmosphere.
It's full of diversions and actually set up to be around people.
Bob's most consistent costumers are two lonely middle aged men. However when Mort actually had a date he tookher to Pestos. So basically you go to Bob's for a good burger and nothing else but you can go to Jimmy's when you actually want a meal with other people.

There are at least four different burger places at least a mile away from me that are actual sit-down restaurants instead of fast food. If I feel like getting a burger, I'll choose one to walk to and go get a fucking burger.

Well you maybe
Most people wouldn'tthere are other burger places nearby like Bob's fathers who was smart enough to open next to a gay club and is full every night

Then would you go to one that's three miles away?
There is nothing near Bob's just a shitty park nobody visits anymore
It's an awful location, it's good for Jimmy because people go out of their way for pizza like drive far away for it because going out for pizza is more like a celebration, a fun thing to do even if the food is shit
Burger places are everywhere maybe Bob's is better but nobody goes to that area anyway

Sometimes. Whichever burger place I choose mostly depends on the fries. If Bob can make good fries I'd walk to his place.

Listen to me you wouldn't even know bobs place exist because you never heard of it
It a horrible location it works for Jimmy because people from other areas drive there
Burger places need to be near other shit because people take their family for pizza but only go for a burger if there is a good place nearby
Literally Bob's only two regulars are people who work nearby, morts costumers eat there too because he puts a good word and its next door
If you want to run a burger place you do it in a street you see people walking by every day simple as that

Hugo seems to only really care about his job when it involves Bob

I mean what if you would go there, you would only do so once in a whole not every lunch and you would do it alone
Even if everyone knew about Bob it's still too far away from work to have lunch there, it's still not worth taking your family to, if it was close to the movie theater or a business area it would do great

I'd like to see an episode for Jimmy pesto.
Not one where he and Bob team up like other people have suggested, but I want one that gives us his back story.
I want the divorce story, I want some kind of insight into what makes Pesto be such an asshole, and I want it to be a bittersweet ending.
Like, we learn that he really admires Bob for whatever reason, but never admits it. Hell get really close to saying it to Bob, and it will simply be some kind of general insult.

A transvestite is someone who enjoys dressing as the opposite gender, but is happy with their own. A transgendered person feels like or wants to be the opposite gender.
Due to my genetics I'd have quite a hard time passing as female, and frankly I'm quite happy with my penis, but tights and panties and silky things feel so good and sexy. IDK if I'd ever go out in public dressed, cause I live in prudesville, maybe to the club or on Halloween where nobody thinks about it too hard.

I don't know about you but everyone i know likes going to 5 Guys (an above average burger chain) over high end chains like Olive Garden or Applebee's
Personally i don't know a single soul who really goes to those restaurant
When we go out to eat we usually just get take out from in the wall catering food places

I want a Jimmy pesto episode mostly because we never got a single episode where no member of the family show upits fun to know that stuff happens around even when they are not involved

Bob isn't five guys
He is a hole in the wall place
Sometimes you guys are so dense, Bob's explanation is nobody knows who him but bin is a business moron and doesn't wonder why nobody knows about them
Even people who eat his food don't show back
His dad does better while offering less variety

Yeah, what if the Belchers took a vacation and we got to see a regular day in Pesto's life.
Maybe we also see what Teddy and Mort do without Bob around

Shitty pizza places Always do well and rarely close
Pizza is the safest restaurant option

Unrelated question
If you were Bob would you?
Seeing as how she is always offering herself and Linda doesn't really give too much of a fuck I would

>Bob's issue is it's not really an inviting joint. Jimmy set up his place like an Olive Garden. Nobody goes for the food but more the atmosphere.
I can't speak for everyone, but I would think anyone would prefer an authentic American dining experience over a phoney-baloney Italian-schmalian dining experience.

Because they both hate Bob.

Linda THOUGHT she didn't give a fuck until she saw her sister on top of Bob, then she forgot it was all a ruse and went full on jealous bitch.

She only did that one episode and christ no. Even in style she doesn't look attractive and has a horrible personality.
Also Linda would absolutely care, she just didn't care in that episode because she trusted Bob to be faithful and knew it was just her sister's delusion that they were having an affair.
Phoney Baloney joints do gangbusters.

You would be wrong
Its literally the shittiest location ever
I would prefer a good burger if it was nearby
I would take my stupid grandma to pesto's
Why are you all so fucking autistic?

Her reaction was more like she is always trying to take my shit than holly fuck she is trying to fuck my husband
Plus fucking your wife's crazy sister seems really fun but it may be just me

Because she knew Bob and she knew Gale.
She gave her the whole story about how that situation happened before and she eventually just moved on. If Bob actually fucked Gale, Linda would be pissed, in fact she started getting a little annoyed when she saw too much of Gale's advances.

>Why are you all so fucking autistic?
Dude, I was just describing my personal dining preferences. In literally my first post in this thread. I think if anyone here is being autistic, it might be you getting upset at people for not taking the geography/business planning of fictional cartoon restaurants seriously.

Yeah maybe
Still fucking your wife's sister is one of the most universal fetishes

You care entirely too much about this.

That's he point I wasn't describing mine I was talking about people in general
Of course I care more about the quality of the food but pesto's is the place you take your grandma or you take your shitty family its olive garden and olive garden does well because of that
I wouldn't drive half an hour to bibs, maybe I would once or twice if I knew about it, the food is great but the place is bland and shitty plus the burgers are just burgers so you don't get the this little hidden place nobody knows about appeal
All Bob fucking needs is to move closer to people, that's it. If he moved closer to people he could keep every single thing the same

I'm getting kind of mad that nobody understands
I get this in adventure time, korra and steven universe threads I don't expect people to be so narrow minded here
One problem is he tries to run a burger place like a restaurant he thinks just opening is all he needs to people come around but it's not a burger place like bibs is a place you go for lunch not a place you take your date to

Oh my god, dude I don't even disagree with you, you made a cogent point... originally... but how many times are you going to repeat this exact same fucking point? And then call OTHERS autistic? What other explanation is there for you repeating the same post again and again?

Remember that line The Count of Monte Cristo? Where Mondego says "I'm not supposed to want to be you!" and even when Mercedes says that Edmund Dantes was more happy with the little that he had, whereas Mondego had everything, but was miserable.

Same thing here. Pesto has a successful place but is unhappy because he sees Bob who is genuinly happy, despite that fact that Pesto is rich and famous. It's basically "Fuck that guy over there for being happier and better at making food than me!" and Bob is all "Well, fuck you too"

Yeah if she's hot.

>Remember that line The Count of Monte Cristo?

Until you say yeah you are right
Thats literally all you need to do
I cant read your fucking mind

>I'm getting kind of mad that nobody understands
>I get this in adventure time, korra and steven universe threads I don't expect people to be so narrow minded here
I didn't want to do this man, but you brought this on yourself.

Well nobody is hot in Bob burgers style

user why do you think only one person is talking to you?

He's adventure time, korra and steven universe are autism breeding ground, what's your point?

Holy shit dude, go step outside, get a deep breath of fresh air. You need that waaaaay more than you need external validation. Shit, I'm not even whoever the hell you were arguing with, I'm just a guy who woke up and went "Boy, I'd sure like to read about Bob's Burgers over brunch". Nobody fucking comes to a Bob's Burgers thread to discuss business planning bullshit.

Im supposed to know that when every post is anonymous?

Yes. If you can't, then you are officially too dumb, too dumb, or too full of Ass-burg-cum to post on an anonymous image board.

That is literally the whole point of being anonymous.

I don't think Jimmy cares enough about other people. He's more of a self centered kind of person. And those people are SO self assured that anything that threatens that PERFECT image of them is seen as the ultimate threat.
Jimmy lashes out at Bob just because he's it's a regular side effect of extreme confidence: you gotta mantain it.

Last night my buds came hang out at my place and we went for a drive in my friends car, we picked some cheap pizza and beer and hanged around talking about old highschool classmates and joking around
You are way more autistic on a regular day than me at my worst

Moot said he made posts get a cool down if you post too often because he didn't want boards being used as chats

>Ever dating someone who doesn't appreciate a good burger.
>Not taking your date to the best fucking burger joint around for beers and some quality food, then feeling her up under the table in the corner booth.

Go back to the 1980s

Three autistic kids

I'm trying, but my time machine is powered by cocaine and that shit is expensive.

...

Did you watch Burger Wars? Jimmy isn't self assured at all. His food is crap and he knows it.

yeah that show did everything right. more or less

we used to have pizza burgers regularly at school. they basically did the opposite of what you should do.. it was more of a weird loosemeat sandwich with nothing even resembling italian seasoning, and a big mass of melted cheddar on it, and a really soft bun that i guess is something like pizza crust.. it was good, but it wasnt a pizza burger. basically ground beef is too bland to really play well with pizza stuff. that's why pizza comes with sausage

>dressing as the opposite gender
a lot of them feel (quite rightly) that that general fashion is more appropriate for their own sex than the opposite.
if I see a woman dressed anything like a drag queen, there is no appeal there.

We've been going about this wrong, we keep trying to find a way to turn pizza into a hamburger, we need to make hamburgers into a pizza.
Only thing I can think of is taking American Cheeses, onion and tomato, finding a tomato sauce that's similar enough to ketchup without being absolutely disgusting in massive quantities, then having ground beef like you would chopped sausage.

he's a little, he has the emotional complexiy of a twelve year old, and his autism is turned way down. sometimes I don't know why bob fucks with him so much, but since his kids give him such shit, he probably needs someone dumber than them to resent.

least he does what he needs to do, feeds his kids kinda thing.

Releases his pent up stress about his retard sons on Bob.

Just watch any interview of parents with retards. They either openly say what a nightmare raising their 30 year old drooling fleshheap is or they lie and claim it's a blessing while being the happiest when some government agent takes care of them for one day of the week.

papa john's briefly had a burger-flavored pizza
its sauce was ketchup-mayo combination, otherwise known as fry sauce, secret sauce, etc..
it had pickles on it as well, and burger meat and tomato and onion and... i'm told it was awful, mainly because you don't fucking heat up mayonnaise then let it sit around warm for long periods.
but the idea of a pizza dough bun with hamburger whatnot put onto it is okay to me. an openfaced burger tart. i'd eat that. but burgers really need no assistance at the moment except maybe a more pocket-y bun. burger calzone..

>Both cheese sides point to different ends meaning there is no way to hold it
Ronnie no

I'm the same. I got sick of the disfunctional family situations.

I especially love how Bob is actually the most stable member of the family, too, instead of the overdone bumbling dad archetype. And he's still not perfect; he gets in his peeing contests with Jimmy Pesto, and laughs at things that he shouldn't laugh at. He's a pretty realistic character. Makes me think of my dad a bit, if Bob were mixed with Red Foreman.

PEEING RACES!
I love how Linda can't swear

don't stop

In the alt text he said you are supposed to pick it up with two more pizzas.

>Hit him in his handsome groin!

What did Linda mean by this?

How does she know his groin is handsome?

she said handsome face first, it was continuing

>boobity boobity boo!

Poplopovich

Get it get it

...

He's a diaper fetishist. I imagine that it destroyed his marriage and since he can't even find unconvincing drag queens to indulge him his sexual frustration and failure as a husband and father have made him despise Bob's happy if quirky family and as a result he lords over his financial success on Bob to compensate.

I just fucking hate how the kids are little shits at least 75% of the time. If I ever had kids like that I'd probably be reported to social services because I'd end up beating them.