Why are the Avengers so damn weak?

Why are the Avengers so damn weak?

The Justice League can punch out or overpower whatever big cosmic threat comes their way.

Anything bigger than street level and the Avengers are utterly useless. They constantly need MacGuffins or reality warpers to save their bacon.

As a result, the whole "villain beats up the Avengers to show how dangerous they are" is an utterly toothless happenstance because these punks were never all that formidable to begin with.

marvel heroes have and will always be weaker than their DC counterparts

it's the genesis of how they were founded by jack, stan, and steve. it's the flawed human element. not the near perfect demigods of DC. i like them both though

>villain beats up the Avengers to show how dangerous they are
Villain beats up Thor usually.
And I don't know. Avengers have history having Z-listers on teams. But you don't even remember Living Lightning.

>marvel heroes have and will always be weaker than their DC counterparts

Then why send them up against the likes of Thanos, Galactus, and the Beyonder when they can't do jack shit?

Because muh willpower, unity and AVENGERS ASSEMBLE.

Hyperion could beat the entire current JL by himself. Thor probably could, too, desu.

Because until the late 2000s they were C-listers, far below Spidey, the X-men, and in continuity relevance, maybe even the Fantastic Four.

Because they don't always fall back on the poor writing of batman being the world's greatest detective and superman being the multi verses strongest strong on a bad day.

They've had to scale back on superman's powers and depower him again and again just to manage to write a good story

Reminder that no Marvel hero could ever defeat a DC hero. EVER.

The Justice League was always about reuniting the best of the best. The world's greatest motherfuckers.

The Avengers is like... all the other guys the X-Men and the Fantastic Four didn't wanted to accept, and who even Spider-Man didn't wanted to hang-out with. They're a bunch of C-listers who came together to play poker and screw around, oh, and also battle Kang on the side. Pretty much anybody could be an Avenger. You just had to get a card membership and show up on the Saturdays for the poker game.

Reed Richard figured out the anti life equation before he got out of pre-school. The greatest hero's in DC can't even hop universes without alien tech

Richards can't even cure his own autism.

>The Justice League was always about reuniting the best of the best. The world's greatest motherfuckers.
Not always, but you're right.
I don't know is there any version of team that triggers JLfags more.
I lie, JLI triggers them more.

Flash hops universes by just vibrating, dude.

Nah.

JLI still had numbers on their side.

JL Detroit, Gay for Justice and Robinson's JL with the legacy characters were the only ones that truly sucked.

There was always an ongoing Avengers series, maybe not as popular as Spidey, but they were still A-listers all the time. Nice trolling bro

They weren't A -isters, bro.

because you said so? They were VERY popular when the original team was created. Then they lost some of popularity, but it was always there.

DC is about Gods trying to be human while Marvel is about humans trying to be Gods

>Because they don't always fall back on the poor writing of batman being the world's greatest detective and superman being the multi verses strongest strong on a bad day.

Yes. Instead they let the Earth die while fighting among themselves and allowed their story to get hijacked by Reed and Doom.

I would say maybe the team was low a but the characters themselves were usualy c or b.

Thor Slowdinson would get blitzed before he could even make a move.

>Thor probably could, too, desu.

Please explain to me how Thor is going to deal with The Flash, Superman, or Wonder Woman?

Hell, maybe Thor can beat Green Lantern... Maybe... Also, if Thor can be defeated by Nick Fury with a whisper then Batman can definitely kick Thor's ass.

So what he can beat Cyborg and Aquaman? Congratulations I guess. Though I feel that he wouldn't necessarily be able to beat both Cyborg and Aquaman at the same time.

Also, other than the Hulk Thor is the hardest hitting Avenger.

Next you'll say Iron Man was always a-list lol.

Cap could defeat Batman for sure

To be fair everybody hated Secret Wars

The Justice League who got their shit pushed in my Doomsday is worse.

At least the picture you posted had Aquaman on it. He's one of the founding members of the Justice League.

>Fire
>Ice
>Guy Gardner
>Booster Gold
>Blue Beetle
>Bloodwind (I know he's Martian Manhunter, but no one did then)

And some other terrible members has got to be the worst Justice League in existence.

Exactly. They're not perfect.

Only DC hero I respect is whatever iteration of the green lantern they have out at any given time. He's the JLs gateway to the universe as he deals with those problems on a daily. I think him dealing with earths shit is almost an insult

The team itself was kind of a b-list superhero team my man.

Fantastic Four and X-Men were the A-list Marvel teams. And when the Defenders first came out it instantly started selling better than the Avengers because it was actually a cool team.

>Doctor Strange
>Hulk
>Namor
>And I think, but can't be sure Silver Surfer

Hell, they should have added Cap to the Defenders and that would have been a way cooler team than the Avengers with:

>Tony - I make bad life choices - Stark
>Hank - slap a bitch - Pym
>Clint - I have a bow - Barton

Hell, Magneto's kids are fucking Avengers. And House of M was legitimately their fault.

because if they were all superman level, the threat levels would quickly spiral out of control, and make you wonder why earth still exists

Of the two times they've fought: one was a technical win for Batman and the other was Batman and Cap realising they shouldn't be fighting and actually deal with the multiversal threat.

Well done for proving you don't read comics though.

Thor knows magic so superman isn't an issue. WW is a God herself so they might be on the level until All Black, The Necro Sword comes into play. I don't see how thor would deal with the flash or the flash would deal with thor.

The dial goes up to eleven. That's why.

Thor would just whisper "Martha" into batman's ear

Superman lifted the Mjolnir.

>didn't like JLI
Fuck you. They are the best incarnation of the league.

I'm a FF fanatic and I loved Secret Wars, my only gripe is that Ben should be riding out near future Marvel stupidity in the limbo with his senpai instead of toiling away on Bendis GotG and fucking Civil War II.

It doesn't work like that. You've to remind of his dad. Thor can't be Batman's new daddy.

>Thor knows magic so superman isn't an issue.
Like in good old days.
>mfw Pym beating Diana
No, Justice League has to be super srs, JLI literally raped name of Justice League.
That's what some people unironically believe.

I never said I disliked that.

I was pointing out that the worst version of the Justice League was the one which got their shit pushed in by Doomsday.

JLI is fine by me.

It... was the JLI that got their shit pushed in.

People have this magic thing mixed up, Superman is vulnerable to magic, just like how Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter and the GLs, as in it affects him normally, it's not like Kryptonite or a red sun.

This. They're kind of the black sheep of JL but they had so much personality.

The JLI proper has more members, Batgod alone elevates these schmucks to Galactus level threat, nevermind Mary Marvel and the GOAT Maxwell Lord IV.

No, it was JLA I'm sure...

All the people are American who Doomsday stomped.

You literally listed the members of JLI and said they were the worst. What exactly do you think the JLI is? Cause I think you're confused.

wtf i hate the avengers now

And Thor Still knows magic so the fight goes to him.

My bad. I was thinking of Justice League Europe.

So, yeah no. Fuck JLI.

Fire and Ice aren't.

Flash can barely handle Weather Wizard. Thor is that times a million.

Superman gets beat by one magical lightning bolt.

Wonder Woman is a chump compared to Thor. Thor picks up world sized snakes and beats up people who destroy galaxies. Thor is a cosmic fucking powerhouse. Wonder Woman couldn't even phase him if he was trying and he'd smash her like a watermelon.

Thor is beyond all of them by such a high degree it's insane. He could rob them of their powers with a swing of his damn hammer.

JLA didn't exist when Doomsday showed up. It was the JLI. Booster was even there.

You forgot Batman, Dr Fate, Mister Miracle, Barda, Captain Marvel and Mary Marvel on your list. Just saying since it seems your reason for not liking them is a power level thing. I mean you have a right to your opinion I guess, but they're pretty great.

Yep. It was pic related plus Maxima, who later was part of Extreme Justice with Booster and Beetle.

Plus I'm pretty sure JLE is a part of the JLI

None of those people were there when Doomsday pushed their shit it.

Yes, and no.

My bad, seems we're arguing for no reason. I'm talking about the whole JLI run being my favorite incarnation of the league. Sorry dude it's early and I misunderstood what you were getting at.

Thor's slow as fuck, he wouldn't be able to land a blow on Superman.

Which is why he holds onto his hammer as it moves him through space. Only need to strike down superman once to go to town on him. His rogue gallery isn't exactly godspeed

Justice League bores me because they're too powerful. I like characters that are human just a bit stronger or some extra abilities.

No, you don't. Stop talking out of your ass and read some JL classics like Morrison and Waid's JLA, New Frontier and Kingdom Come.

Read the title, fool.

Totally understandable too. I was talking /just/ about the Justice Leaguers who got their shit pushed in by Doomsday. Not the entirety of JLI.

Thor alone would kick half of the JL, only a well geared WW would be able to face him, in the end it would be a norse Magic x greek magic shit. Or maybe an underwatee fight with Aquaman may stop him or keep him busy while the rest deals with the other threats.

Superman can eat blows from him for hours but Thor always brings Magic to the game, but an honor melee fist fight can happen. Would probably take a 2x1 to keep Thor busy.

Iron man can shit on Batman on a surprise meetup although a Cyborg interference could take Tony out of the brawn for days to retreat and adapt, but Batman would be ready for the next fight.

Flash shits on Pietro so hard that it could be used as a joke relief and to take the flash from the great fight and justify why he's not solo killing everyone with the memeforce.

Same thing for Scarlet Witch and Zatanna. MManhunter can face the Vision and after someone saves Superman fromMarvels Magic, he can go for the Hulk who just arrieved.

Meh, I'm not sure...

Yeah as a League that particular group is pretty lack luster. I'm a huge blue and gold fag and Guy is my favorite GL so any team with all three of them on it gets a pass from me for that alone.

>Anything bigger than street level and the Avengers are utterly useless.

>I'm a huge blue and gold fag and Guy

Oh, I definitely dig that. They just /really/ shouldn't be Justice Leaguers.

pretty sure wanda could defeat the justice league just by saying no more dc

The Fantastic Four and the Xmen wee the A and B teams of Marvel since the 60s.

The avengers has always been a shit supergroup, they did got a revamp in the late 90s, but even then they looked so pale compared with Morrisons League.

The problem with the avengers is that NOW thanks to the movies marvel has to pretend they are something more than what they are. Years ago there was a running joke on how easy was to join the avengers, since pretty much everyone could be. its a shit group and will always be a shit group.


That being said, Johns did a great job turning the justice league into a shitty avenger tier group, supervillians in the team included.

Unless any of the hero's from DC can get outside of their own universe, they couldn't even beat deadpool.

He is obviously an 4th wall exception

Miles can beat everyone everywhere offpanel with his Venom Blast.

>That being said, Johns did a great job turning the justice league into a shitty avenger tier group, supervillians in the team included.

While this is somewhat true Darkseid War was actually quite alright in my opinion. He ended it on a good note. The issue is that most writers don't have enough imagination to write good Justice League stories.

You need to create really over-the-top stories if you want to write the Justice League well. And over-the-top does NOT mean better at destroying the world than the last threat.

they are too busy beating each other up

That's why I enjoy green lantern

That's one of the things I hate about the new Justice League series
You can't go and have an End of the World event as the very first arc of the series, with a ton of disasters that looks like would cause millions of deaths each, that will most likely not even be referenced in the other series
That's Crisis-tier shit, it should be used only when you want to create the huge crossover arc

The first arc of Morrison's JLA was white Martians conquering earth; it isn't that the Justice League can't fight earth ending threats it's that it shouldn't be all they're doing. But I do agree with you. While I was kind of on board with the first issue of Justice League Rebirth it went from maybe to NO as soon as the second issue began.

The art is good. But the writing is trash, and they need to get someone else to write it and fast.

And Batman would whisper whatever stupid shit Nick Fury whispered in his ear to make him unworthy.

If you can get outside of the universe itself, you can essentially break the laws of that universe allowing you to supersede it as a creating force in the universe.

I'm just saying, you do that the abilities governed by the rules of the built the universe become futile.

Miles is still ultimately unaware of his true existence, it is a weakness.

>While this is somewhat true Darkseid War was actually quite alright in my opinion. He ended it on a good note.

I wish i could enjoy comics as you do, Darkside War was terrible, the last 3 issues were among the worst comics i had read by a decent writer.

Morrison and Kelly did it. But with them, a whole country would get destroyed, like when Uruguay was rekt. But then you have Johns Darkseid war, with Darkseid and Anti/monitor going to war with each other on earth, both dying... and the result is a park, and a pair of blocks destroyed in gotham, and by gotham therms thats a bad result in a football game.

Gratz user. Now you have a thor that can't lift a hammer. O' whatever can he fall back on when he isn't holding the hammer other than being a god. Thor doesn't even need to waste his time on bats since he is still a God. Wolverine is a well known ninja slayer which leaves batman with no other option than running away to manage is tried and true prep time. Good luck with that and snikts sense of smell

More to correct my second sentence, "governed by the rules of the universe become futile"

Flash being super fast guy is still constrained by the multiverse etc. In-between areas, (limbo) is still within the universal structure that he understands. His abilities and speedforce also come from inside it.

Any of the superpowered people still need to be inside the universe to win.

Ult Reed explained how every universe gots it's own vibe, I know

Wolverine is always written like a retard despite having 1000 years of experience. Batman can take him easy.

>deadpool breaks out of the universe again
>sneaks in and rewrites the script for the comic
>deadpool wins because reasons

I agree that Darkseid and the Antimonitor should NOT have fought in Gotham. There was no reason for it. Just have them wreck some other city.

What I liked about it was how smoothly it transitioned into Rebirth. I read Rebirth before I read Darkseid War (I bought the trades). So that is why I might view it in a better manner.

Because I new what happened in Rebirth it definitely informed by view of Darkseid War.

But batman's training totally revolves around ninjas and shit.When he isn't using his Holmes level intellect, he falls back on being a ninja. I'm just going off the innate ability of Wolverine to fuck ninjas shit up. With prep time fine but throwing batterrangs and cheap parlor tricks isn't gonna stop sir snikts a lot from killing you. He just doesn't seem to care if he maims you

This dude gets it.

That it such a generic complaint, bro

Is it a good thing or a bad thing that it always comes up as a complaint across the board?

Isn't Thor's magic just "hit's hard" though? Like I don't think his blows are imbued with special spells of destruction or anything (which he wouldn't have any resistance to) and Superman can deal with hits hard just fine. I guess he can also conjure lightening but again unless it has special magical destructive properties beyond what regular lightning can do Superman can take it (at least that's always been my understanding of Superman's magic "weakness" although I'm sure there's plenty in comics to contradict this also I'll admit I don't really know Thor's abilities well)

Exactly

It's guaranteed (You) complaint.

No, he most certainly does not.

He just gave a meme response which is wrong.

Superman has literally wielded Mjollnir before. The hammer won't do anything special to Superman. The lightning fron Mjollnir isn't the same type of lightning which activates Captain Marvel and Black Adam.

People who don't read comics but watch MCU movies and read wikis pretend they know shit about the characters when they don't.

Hell, the person who wrote that shit probably think Ra's' cult is called The League of Shadows because they only know him from the Nolan films.

No, he is imbued by the all father in the sense that he is his son. His base isn't being magic, it's being a god. The thing is that 90% of everything he fights does use magic so within his lifetime he learned a few tricks and collected a few trinkets which are considered 100% fueled by magic. It's 100% situational but to say he is devoid of magic would be underestimating his arsenal. It's just that he doesn't need magic when he has his God hammer. The situation brought up here is how can Thor even touch superman when physical attacks alone aren't enough and that's where the magic comes into play.

As for his lightning. I do not have the page but he once had a chat when he was trying to get some of Storms Thunder crotch and mentioned how the lightning she summons is alive and completely different thing than what he does. That said I can't recall if he called his more magic and it was only 1 page and not a plot point so I can assume it's not normal lightning but that's it.

The Justice League are the best of the best, doing their very best.
The Avengers are just Tony Stark and his douchey mates.
This is a good thing though, remember when Bendis started asking "why aren't our most popular characters on our A-List team?" and then you got Wolverine, Spider-Man and Luke Cage standing around eating Chinese food for entire arcs.

>The thing is that 90% of everything he fights does use magic so within his lifetime he learned a few tricks and collected a few trinkets which are considered 100% fueled by magic

I guess I'm usually against bringing stuff like this into play in "could Abilities Man beat Powersman?" discussions because I think it unfairly benefits characters with longer histories and more books (Superman in this case; I'm sure if you go through his entire history with a fine-toothed comb you could find some pretty bullshit tech and magic shit you could reasonably argue he still keeps stored somewhere in the Fortress of Solitude or wherever that would match or negate anything Thor has) and I find it more fun to keep these purely hypothetical arguments and not have them devolve into something like researching for a court case. Well argued though

In general its a reflection of the different stylistic flavors of their respective universes. DC heroes are larger-than-life gods so the JL tends towards feeling like a pantheon, Marvel heroes tend towards more street-level so the typical Avengers lineup feels more grounded.

Obvious examples proving the rule, JLDetroit on one side, Avengers World on the other. In the latter case its probably the strongest Avengers team ever assembled, not just in size (there have been larger assemblages) but in quality. Not just the typical membership of a Hulk, Thor, Iron Man but additional powerhouses like Captain Marvel, Smasher, Hyperion, Nightmask and Starbrand, Captain Universe. I'm not remembering what power levels Abyss and Ex Nihilo exhibited once joining but these last 5 members were all cosmic-level entities and thats before you work your way "down" to Thor and Hyperion.

But personally I prefer the JLPantheon, and I prefer Kooky Quartet sorts of Avengers lineups. They each can go their own direction and we can enjoy both sorts of storytelling without needless "why isn't X and exact duplicate of Y" navel-gazings.

It's cherry picking I admit for this one fight since he almost always relies on the hammer but in more then 1 run and mainly in the origins before he got the hammer, he had to rely on his wits and teachings which is where the magic and trickery comes from but it was still mainly God strength. It's the same case as you stated with sups, he only ever brings it up in an all else fails manner or when a writer wants him to be more than just a hammer. He is still a God though and oddly enough even if his hammer isn't magic, it seems adept at dispelling it with a single blow in some cases

>trots out cross-company events with outcomes pre-determined by editorial mandate or popularity vote
>pretends like these are unassailable truths
>flings accusation of ignorance
I bet you think that Wolverine could actually beat Lobo, too.

>it's a power level thread
Cancer, off yourselves immediately.

Wasn't it explicitly said in the first issue of Mighty Avengers that they don't include only "Thor-tier" characters because often the solution of a crisis isn't just using their fists so they need someone that is good with computers, someone that is good with magic, someone that is good with "street knowledge" and shit like that?

The Ultimates are the team you call for Csmic threats

And most of them have been Avengers

>Yes. Instead they let the Earth die while fighting among themselves and allowed their story to get hijacked by Reed and Doom.
Your point has absolute nothing to do with their power level.