>I don't think Captain Marvel's push is working as Marvel would like, but could change with the movie.
>One question, if anyone knows. Why not Black Widow?
>There's a lot of why nots.
>The 'first four' ladies of the Marvel universe, for instance;
>Why not Sue Richards/Invisible Woman? Movie rights. >Why not Jean Grey? Movie rights. >Why not Wasp? Was dead when the MCU started, then on hold because of Edgar Wright's stalled Ant-Man movie, which was later revealed to not have intended to use her anyway. >Why not Scarlet Witch? Was a hot mess when the MCU started, and is still kind of a mess.
>Why not Black Widow? I think they want a female super-hero with super-powers. (Although Black Widow has as many super-powers as Batdude, over at the Distinguished Competition, and that doesn't seem to prevent him from hanging with Superdude...) >Why not She-Hulk? Perhaps seen as a derivative character of the Hulk? >Why not Storm? Movie rights. >Why not Monica Rambeau? The token black person has to be a dude, and preferably a sidekick/subordinate/best friend to a white main character. Black *and* female and *not* tied to a white 'main' character would explode tiny brains. >Why not Medusa or, much better (since she's actually been an Avenger), Crystal? Who knows. It would make sense to push Crystal. >Why not Songbird? Again, who knows. She's been ready for the big leagues since Avengers Forever, IMO. >Why not Psylocke or Emma Frost or Kitty Pryde or Dazzler or any of a half-dozen other great female mutant characters? Movie rights. >Why not Valkyrie, or Elsa Bloodstone, or Kate Bishop, or Misty Knight, or Tigra, or Moondragon, or Snowbird? ? >Why not Squirrel Girl? Gah. Don't give them ideas! She could be the Harley Quinn, '4th member of the Trinity' for Marvel!
>Carol must have just seemed like the right fit for 'Marvel's Wonder Woman.' Powerful enough to feel 'super,' and yet not anything unique or original that might confuse the poor dears.
Adrian Phillips
She is a soldier, cap is a soldier.
Thomas Collins
>She could be the Harley Quinn, '4th member of the Trinity'
Is really that the situation with Harl?
Hudson Diaz
Who are you quoting?
Dominic Cruz
>Songbird Doomed to eternally return to the Thunderbolts. >Crystal Doomed to eternally return to the Inhumans. >Valkyrie Too derivative of Thor >Elsa Bloodstone Too edgy >Kate Bishop There's already a Hawkeye in the MCU and even if there wasn't fans would get mad about Clint being sidelined for her >Misty Knight Supporting character >Tigra >Moondragon >Snowbird Who? No, I'm kidding, but they're a bit too "weird" to work well without being established big names.
Anyway, I think Carol fits in well amongst Marvel's big name Avengers, and is a sensible choice if you want to add a girl to their ranks. "Alien powers" is a niche not really covered by any of the mainline Avengers, she's not strongly tied to any other team, and she's powerful enough to take on heavy hitters while not being so powerful that they'd have to resort to AAAAAUGH to take her out of play like they do with Monica. I just wish she'd be written well and actually get some form of development. If they were willing to take her established flaws and actually give her a character arc involving them, she could be a great character.
Luke Anderson
Some of your excuses are shitty
Landon Lee
>Elsa Bloodstone >Too edgy
Juan Howard
Oh, Carol can be pushed but not as the hero thy want her to be. You cannot erase her rather convoluted past no matter how many mindwipes you give her, she reverts to a certain personality type.
Weird thing is, they're trying to build up a new reputation for an old character and it backfired. It's an awfully different success if the character you've been putting on a pedestal as the prime female A lister ended up being hatedly criticized or being cheered on as a potential anti-hero or villain.
She also seems to have a rather strong fanbase for her old self the point of one user tweeting Brie to read Reed's run on Carol. The amount of murdercarol threads and the recent storytimes were all in criticism of how she's being handled now - especially during KSD run.
But hey, Marvel's gonna do what Marvel's gonna do. Some of their writers post Avengers 200 tried to write her out of oblivion because of that mess(thanks Busiek for the revival.) and now Marvel wants her to wave thier flag up high with a different battlecry.
Zachary Walker
Who are you quoting?
Ian Powell
Heelllll no She popular, but you don't get to be Trinity for popularity alone You get it by popularity and consistency over time
And I doubt Harley will be able to have the same origins for over 70 years like the Trinity
Ayden Carter
Carolfans has quite a discussion here it only went full Cred Forums at the end.
Ethan Hall
It's best not to think about it.
Hudson Russell
I find funny that her only fans on Cred Forums like her only for OOC shit and OOC ships, and not for what the character really is.
How much a faillure of character you must be?
Anthony Cox
This is a thread for Carolhaters, fuck off.
Dominic Moore
There will never be an all-out possibly anthology-style Marvel horror show starring Elsa.
Thomas Bennett
You're thinking way too hard about this.
She is the female character with the most name recognition that Marvel still owns the film rights to. Plus she literally has Marvel in her name, which I'm sure they like in a flagship property.
Aiden Taylor
>Black Widow >on Batmans level I've never thought about that before
Easton Sanchez
Because it's absurd, user.
>Carolfans Even more absurd.
Julian Lopez
the problem is that Carol was always horribly flawed and always on the cusp of going evil or insane.
as we saw with her alternate self who still goes by Warbird, she's just a tragedy away from going on a multi-universal killing spree.
she's a character thats forever unbalanced and frankly, mentally unwell.
Carson Hernandez
>Avengers 200 I had almost forgotten.
God, Shooter just did not give a fuck as long as Carol was gone.
Levi Jones
And she will get the Harlequiim treatment, and have everything that makes her interesting taken away.
Jack Lopez
And you will start online petitions because NOT MUH.
Hudson Gonzalez
Nope. Long live Evil Empress Carol.
Benjamin Nguyen
Nah, I have a huge disdain for her original character too for being a Marvel fad, that cant properly grow and develop because she is company owned.
Brandon Robinson
>doesn't even know enough about a character to spell her name right >complains about changes to her character This is why i will never take NUH MUH HARLEY fags seriously
Christian Williams
But I dont even like Harley too.
At least not like the people on this board.
Mason Moore
Yep. Never said they were good, just suggesting potential "logic" for not using them. You think Monica not being usable because she's black is a good excuse?
Julian Phillips
Claremont actually helped in keeping Carol in existence after the tragedy that was Avengers 200 by adopting her into his Uncanny Xmen.
Weird thing is, during the Ms. Marvel v1. he had plans of having Carol be kidnapped and impregnated as a baby machine for the Kree, lol. But the series got cut at issue 25.
Gavin Hughes
Yes.
>sells merch like crazy >adds a few thousand to Suicide Squad's sales >moves a few seats for the live action movie >is getting an animated movie >has been the most popular Halloween costume for women two years in a row >is extremely popular to cosplay as at cons >one of the most popular Arkham characters, especially over the fucking batfamily >has consistently been the third best selling book behind Batman and Justice League >has consistently been the second best selling solo behind Batman >her Rebirth book outsold Batman #1 and All Star Batman #1
And also I trust Jim Lee, an insider who presumably knows sales figures, saying she is the 4th pillar of DC more than I trust salty Cred Forums people who hate anything that's popular.
The question is if she can maintain this popularity. If that movie her actress was talking about sucks major donkey balls then her popularity may take a hit. But if it does okay to good critically then her popularity will probably only grow until if that point where casuals get sick of her comes.
Xavier Moore
Are you asking about comic books or movies? Because neither one affects sales of the other in any significant sense.
>Why not Sue Richards/Invisible Woman? Movie rights. >Why not Jean Grey? Movie rights.
Correct, but they're also team members rather than solo characters.
>Why not Wasp?
Wasp will be the first female Marvel superhero to have her own title movie (shared with Ant-Man).
>Why not Scarlet Witch? Team player. And she's appeared in what, 3 movies?
>Why not Black Widow?
Probably scheduling/contracts. It's easy to say "female leads don't sell" but ScarJo does just fine and is in-demand. Fitting her in for a solo is harder than just saying "next year, yeah".
> She-Hulk
Universal hold her distribution rights, as with the rest of the solo Hulk stuff.
>Why not Storm?
Also: she's black. Look at how FOX marginalized her on the latest movie posters. This was not accidental; they thought she wouldn't sell.
>Monica
Probably the same.
>Medusa/Crystal/Songbird
Teams.
>Valkyrie
In use.
>Elsa Bloodstone
Shit backstory.
>Kate Bishop
Not until they've lost Renner.
>Misty Knight
In use.
>Tigra
Yiff in hell.
>Moondragon
Presumably on the Guardians wait-list.
>Snowbird
Literally who. I know who, but nobody else will. Come on, OP. Be realistic for once.
There's a lot of this to it. Veterans are a huge part of US culture. To an extent you have to pander to them, or at least be seen to do so.
Also they get guns and planes and shit, which makes better action movie sequences than Creole River Cop or Lawyer Chick or Varsity Archery Champion.
Thomas Thomas
>Wasp will be the first female Marvel superhero to have her own title movie (shared with Ant-Man). And it will be a 30% floppier.
Henry Turner
>“I refer to her as the fourth pillar in our publishing line, behind Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman,” Lee told Vulture.
Austin Perry
>Elsa Bloodstone >Shit backstory
Fuck you.
Aiden Perez
Just like Green Lantern was under Johns? It's a phase.
Ayden Ross
Agreed. Flash is the fourth pillar, always.
Eli Hernandez
I mean that is totally the reasoning the movie executives would use
Caleb Price
Nextwave movie when?
David Wood
Really, I think what would be best for Nextwave would be an animated series from Netflix. They don't have to worry about brand confusion with the movies and other shows, and can go all-out on classic Nextwave ridiculousness.
Xavier Peterson
a Nextwave netflix series would be hilarious.
Leo Price
>shit backstory
Jeremiah Roberts
i find that pic very arousing
Jaxon Kelly
They need to just reboot so that old shit doesn't have to count anymore.
Eli King
I hope something happens that will end up to them cancelling the CM film.
Carter James
She's more popular than Wonder Woman and is going to be joining the Justice League after JLvsSS, so there's that.
Ryan Williams
>And I doubt Harley will be able to have the same origins for over 70 years like the Trinity Wonder Woman can't go 10 years with the same origin so I guess she isn't in the Trinity
Hudson Long
>She also seems to have a rather strong fanbase for her old self the point of one user tweeting Brie to read Reed's run on Carol. The amount of murdercarol threads and the recent storytimes were all in criticism of how she's being handled now - especially during KSD run.
As much as I love the Reed run I think the popularity of MurderCarol is mostly just Cred Forums which is not representative of the comics community as a whole
Eli Roberts
>OOC shit Angry fuckup Carol was the accepted characterization for at least a decade and that's what Cred Forums likes
Caleb Collins
...
Alexander Wood
Carol in the movies could definitely work. Think of it as Marvel starting over with the character. It's tough to make a character an A-lister. Because, it's the fans and not necessarily Marvel who determines what is popular. The movies will be different, though.
Nathaniel Clark
Cred Forums wants evil Emperor Carol, not just angry.
Jace Brown
>>Why not Monica Rambeau? Mother Fuck I wish they where pushing her for the movie Captain.
Alexander Gonzalez
Her origin's same as it always was. That "Zeus is her dad" change didn't last five years and all the other versions have the same amount of variation to the details but keeping the same foundation that every retelling of Batman and Superman's origins do.
Hudson Perry
>they let her lead one battle and she keeps talking about it for the rest of the series
Caleb Reed
They could do She-Hulk. Shes as different from Hulk as Wasp is from Ant-Man, and a way better character than any of the available women for Marvel to use in movies.
The only way Carol works is if they wipe her slate clean and make a whole new character out of her. So far she's been an alcoholic republican and a way too obvious push for girl power. So much so that it totally takes away from any other trait she might have.
This is probably the one time in comics where it would be a good idea to Nick Fury someone. Treat movie Carol as a blank slate, one that is actually interesting and relatable. Then just throw all of those characteristics in her comic book counter part. Either by killing her and reviving her/snatching one from an alternate dimension or just impose all of those new traits on her in a relaunch and pretend like she's always been this way like they did with the shitty DeConnick runs.
Adam Johnson
She had to go somewhere after a decade of being drunk, angry, fuck up Carol. They tried KSD way and it's a bore. Warlord Carol would be the best thing to happen to her character.
John Hughes
>yfw they add Moonstone on the Captain Marvel movie and she turns more popular than Carol
David Carter
Karla's complicated to play and put on screen. They'll probably have to summarize her to a troupe. Which would be sad.
Lincoln Morris
She-Hulk comics never sold, which is why Marvel is going with a darker version of her for her new book.
As far as Carol, I see what Marvel is doing with Civil War 2. They're tearing the character down, so that Margaret Stohl can build her back up again with her re-launch. She's a novelist, which will bring in a much needed boost in sales.
Luke Reyes
Iirc she's the same writer for that Black Widow book?
Dominic Young
Well, Marvel seems more interested in a Moon Girl, SG, Mockingbird, and Kate Bishop series instead of giving Monica her own title.
Monica is pretty low on Marvel's priorities right now.
Brody Martin
True, but it's not like Ant-Man or Dr. Strange comics have torn up the charts in recent memory, but they are still making movies about them.
Comic book sales are obviously not what gets a character the greenlight for the MCU and the character not being successful in comics doesn't mean the movie won't do decently. I mean, they built the MCU around Iron Man.
Easton Diaz
>Mockingbird Dont remind me. They ruined my waifu.
Hudson Smith
She is the female captain america. That's why.
Evan Brown
The main reasons for why Black Widow isn't being pushed as a large female lead is due to two things:
1. Her history in Marvel universe is storied and often ends up with, "sitting somewhere in the murky gray" area of morality. She's an assassin from the USSR days who eventually switches over to "the good guys" side when she gets sick of killing people. Yet she still does it when the situation calls for it, and doesn't stick to the "moral high ground/pillar" that Marvel wants their heroes to be on.
2. In terms of MCU, her past is left deliberately vague, but the few parts we see and know about (and is basically confirmed if you watched Agent Carter and accept the TV shows as canon of MCU) implies that she was trained to be a femme fetale assassin and only switched when Hawkeye converted her. She still has no qualms about killing people, but avoids doing so when she goes Avenger-ing because that isn't what their mandate is (unless it's vs. aliens or robots, then she goes murderhobo like everyone else).
I do think she could have a solo movie, but it would need to be a literal spy/assassin movie where she goes after the organization that made her and stop them from making any more people like her.
Wyatt Ramirez
>thanks busiek
Fuck off
Nathan Ross
Carol sold more as Ms Marvel than Carol as Captain Marvel. Some of the early Brian Reed issues sold over 60,000, while KSD struggled to keep numbers above 20,000.
Adam Parker
>and a way better character than any of the available women for Marvel to use in movies. is she or is she tied to the Hulk at Universal?
Mason Powell
>>Medusa/Crystal/Songbird >Teams.
You can easily spin Crystal and Songbird off their teams. Fuck Medusa, she can go in the same trashbin as Carol.
Ayden Rodriguez
She's never worked as a solo character, though. She's best when she's leading a team.
Isaiah Parker
OP is quoting someone from CBR.
Gabriel Howard
>They could do She-Hulk. Shes as different from Hulk as Wasp is from Ant-Man, and a way better character than any of the available women for Marvel to use in movies.
The problem is that they don't know if she's tied up with the Hulk rights. If it's a similar situation, they'd be reluctant to do a solo film because then they'd let Universal have distribution money. And it would seem like a waste to do a character regulated to supporting role instead of one you can possibly mine for a solo film.
Adam Taylor
Why so upset
Hudson Robinson
What should I read if I want more of the actual good Carol stories where she's an alcoholic?
Brayden Diaz
have Imaishi direct and we're golden
John Sanders
user I don't know who told you GL was Harly levels of popular with John. But they lied. Badly.
GL was everywhere in the comics and with the event pushes, but thats where it ended. Harley has been making waves in every form of media she has been dipped in. Only thing she hasn't yet gotten is an animated show.
Joshua Ortiz
Carol may be fucked in the comics, but thats ok. The real crowd (casual/movies) aren't going to be reading the comics. At most they'll click the bait articles that talk about her fucked up past and thats it.
What we've been seeing these past few years is just writers trying to drum up support and get lucky as being the inspiration that movie writers use for the character.
Jacob Diaz
>At most they'll click the bait articles that talk about her fucked up past and thats it. I don't want to deal with moviefags finding out about Avengers 200. Goddammit.
Gabriel Williams
Can't wait
Liam Rodriguez
We all know the reason is cause she has "Marvel" in her name.
Landon Wright
Reed Carol sold a lot more than captain marvel and Kamala.