Honest and rational discussion

Honest and rational discussion.

Why is Communism hated? In its inherent state..as an ideology..why is it wrong?

Hell, I'd go as far as saying that Communism is what Nazism is..minus the racial element.

It's the source of all the shit going on in the West now. Subversion in schools, race baiting to stoke up a class war, safe spaces, Muslim immigration to topple the West, crackdowns on free speech, multiculturalism, attacks on the family unit to make government the new daddy...all due to communism.

Reds need to be shot on sight without question.

you won't get any good replies here. read the books and form your own opinion.

a fucking leaf

>as an ideology..why is it wrong?
Because every human always strives to ammass as much wealth and power as he can and doesn't want to share it with others for no reason.
Communism is doomed to fail unless you have some sort of magical mind control ray that is able to brainwash literally everyone into being a mindless drone.

Because individual rights is infinitive better than (((collectivism)))? News flash: As much as the idea turns you on, you won't be the one handing out the moldy bread. Get that idea out of your head right now, Leaf. It will be the (((same people))) running the show as it is now, except any semblance of happiness you may have will be pissed away as you are treated like a drone with a number. Want to pursue any sort of individual life goals? Fuck you. Want something unique? Fuck you. Want to enjoy a nice meal? Fuck you. Want anyone to take your individual interests into account? Fuck you. Want to freely trade with your fellow man? Want any sort of innovation? Want to not die from the flu? Fuck you. Want to travel the world? Fuck you. Want a wide array of clothing styles? Fuck you.

TL;DR: Communism = Fuck you, the individual.

Good thing nobody is a mindless drone under capitalism right now.

>inb4 IT USNT RYLL CAPITULUSM

That's a method of getting to Communism..but is it actually part of the ideology? No.

Why are any of those things a "fuck you"? Can't we be collectivists without going to such extremes of limitation?

>Good thing nobody is a mindless drone under capitalism right now.

Cool argument. I can tell you're a real thinker that understands the concepts being talked about.

>Because every human always strives to ammass as much wealth and power as he can
That's the animal nature, and it's dangerous and destructive as fuck you can already see the results around you.

Pic related

Human nature doesnt allow for it. As Aristotle said, men inherently try to make claim of things. If you cant change this inherent trait of man you cant have communism.

>Why are any of those things a "fuck you"? Can't we be collectivists without going to such extremes of limitation

Because extreme limitations is exactly what collectivism is. Communism zooms out and completely ignores the rights, needs or demands of the individual. Libertarianism zooms in and ONLY takes into account the needs of the individual, which as a result benefits everyone, even if they don't realize it because they are spoiled children that think Communism will be the same as what we have now + free stuff and not having to work. Communism would be run by (((assholes))) and your life would be absolute shit. Think it's bad now because you have to flip burgers at McDonalds? You're in for a rude awakening.

Because you do not have a right to other people's property.

Right, and communism would fix that by putting a (((few people))) at the top and treating everyone like cattle. Are you retards even capable of any sort of critical thought?

>A FUCKING LEAF
But let me talk on a serious note as someone who used to be into into communist theory heavy. Socialism and by extent Communism can only work in very very specific conditions and that is precisely why it is a dead ideology. The doctrine of the old communist intellectuals has been discarded for liberal pseudo-bolshevik shit. For socialism to work first you'd have to cut out the entire shit about "tolerance", races are different and if you look at the serious half of the shitposts and the proof its obvious. Furthermore you can not have a single socialist state. Youd have to have many that can trade with eachother without hostility from capitalist nations (impossible). Look at any thing close to "real" socialism. Famine and lack of necessities will occur even if everything else works out just because logistically most nations font have every single resource/industry in their desposal. Furthermore just to effectively make a socialist government you need a strong party to overthrow the current capitalist regime (hard as fuck by the way) and then you have to trust that they'll decentralize shit after (they wont).
So socialism/communism will only work if it is decentralized (as to prevent state ownership and coopting the movement) which is virtually impossible unless you globalize (impossible for socialism and shitty idea) it has to be extremely direct to convey the will of the working people (virtually impossible in any large scale way) AND even then you have a shit ton of logistical nightmares to get over.
TL;DR
Communism a shit, hard as fuck to implement and impossible large scale

GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY YOU COMMUNIST FUCKING SCUM BAG

Thats dictatorship lad not communism. Even your so beloved Social Socialism was a scam, hitler loved the big capitalist cock.

Oh right and communism doesnt concentrate power into the hands of an elite political class even though that's exactly what it does every single fucking time

In the Manifesto, Marx uses a Hegelian dialect to analyze political history. That's
Thesis
Antithesis
Synthesis

He felt that capitalism alienates the worker from their employers, the product of their labor, and the labor itself. Eventually, the workers will stage a socialist revolution. This creates social.

'But his antithesis was that socialism cannot exist while capitalism exists elsewhere. Eventually, democracy will take over the socialists and they'll eventually revert to capitalism and start the cycle all over again.

His synthesis to fix this was a worldwide socialist revolution to eliminate capitalism and democracy once and for all. This would be communism.

The book is about a cycle of revolutions. It's a guide of how things are, not how they should be

>Thats dictatorship lad not communism

No it's not. I never said anything about a dictatorship. Regardless of how many (((people))) (if any) sit comfortable at the top, communism shits all over the individual. That is a feature of communism.

>it completely ignores how people actually behave by stating that human nature is not a thing
>when it fails badly, it is always sabotage

See There are no leaders in communism

Learn to read.

>'But his antithesis was that socialism cannot exist while capitalism exists elsewhere. Eventually, democracy will take over the socialists and they'll eventually revert to capitalism and start the cycle all over again.
> His synthesis to fix this was a worldwide socialist revolution to eliminate capitalism and democracy once and for all. This would be communism.

Maybe.. Just maybe..that means that Marx was a retard and most people rightfully prefer individualism over collectivism, so collectivism needs to be FORCED on people for it to take hold on a large scale. That is not a good thing.

idk I kinda like capitalism

>russia

It's because humans don't work that way. It's very natural for people to want to get what they work for.

You can't beat collectivism into people's head if that's what you mean, you can do it to a degree surely, but it eventually goes back once someone fucks up, it's primal survival instinct.

It could work if we were all the same as the left sells it.

/thread

The reds have godtier propaganda and are aesthetic as fuck
The have a noble goal but we all know its just another method to rule the goyim,there is no real difference if the ruling 1% are the ((((same)))) as those In The west

>He thinks communism would work without somebody managing the resources.
>He thinks said "management" isn't the communist party.
>He thinks said party doesn't have a leader.
>He lives in a dream world where everbody actually shares everything.

I agree. Marx was incredibly wrong. He literally said communism can only arise from a revolution. Democracy is the enemy of communism, and since democracy promotes political autonomy, then political autonomy is the enemy of communism.

Lrn2read, and see We're not talking about socialist countries who call themselves Communist. We're talking about communism

(((((((Democracy)))))))

A fucking hue-monkey

By the way that image is lolbertarianism not capitalism you dumb sack of shit.

U wot m8

Every political system did this in the entire history of mankind, why so surprised when someone else does it.

This

Because, like all wanna-be routes to utopia, it does not account for basic human nature.

Communism is wrong the same reason eutopias doesn't exist. It ignores the basic human indiviuality and nature. Communism as Marx envisioned it cannot exist in the real world

>he believes In democracy
KÊK goyim

Might be the catastrophic failures that were the various collectivist states that arose throughout and generally leading up to the 20th century.

There are prime examples in Soviet Russia and Maoist China, with plenty of literature available on the matters.

Communist "states" offer a reality that is one of a singular party serving the proletariat, organized into a central body.

Rudolph Rummel, a professor from the U. of Hawaii, who coined and pushed the term Democide describes such centralization of power as such:

>He argued that there is a relation between political power and democide. Political mass murder grows increasingly common as political power becomes unconstrained. At the other end of the scale, where power is diffuse, checked, and balanced, political violence is a rarity. "The more power a regime has, the more likely people will be killed. This is a major reason for promoting freedom." He concluded: "Concentrated political power is the most dangerous thing on earth."

Communism is total top down power, a recipe for genocide or otherwise, mass politically oriented suppression and killings.

>Communism is total top down power, a recipe for genocide or otherwise, mass politically oriented suppression and killings.
This makes a country strong.

Are you against strong countries?

Retards shouldn't be allowed to vote.

> hide all commiecuck threads

>killing your people
>making your people hate the country they live in
>starving and limiting basic necessities for your people

Yeah, that really makes a country strong. When all the meals a person ate in a month doesn't amount to the weight of the rifle he's carrying in combat.

It's inhuman. A fantasy cooked up by self hating jews trying to erase themselves.

>strong
Said systems were so "strong" that they utterly collapsed. You're braindead.

I'm really fucking tired of Canadians lately.

Why does it matter when you have ten times the population?

???

Because those people will gather up and fucking kill you after a "will of the people" type of trial.

Check how Ceausescu died and the 1989 Romanian Revolution.

Go read about what happens to the people in every country in which communism is practiced.

The ideology leads to practices that kill people and cause wide-spread misery. This question isn't hard to answer.

>The ideology leads to practices that kill people and cause wide-spread misery.
How is that a bad thing? I didn't expect pollacks to be a bunch of cucked fags

>wide-spread misery
My parents and grandparents lived under communism and they don't recall this "misery".
When I asked them about the supposed lines just to get bread they looked at me like I was out of my mind and told me that those only appeared after Gorbachev fucked the Red's shit up.

Two words: human nature.

People spit gum on sidewalks, spray graffiti on concrete barricades alongside highways and throw garbage out their car window on the interstate. They do this because they don't have any personal vested interest in these public areas. Humans naturally are inclined to preserve and protect what's there's. That means that the concept of private property is an inate human instinct we naturally practice as higher animals.

Communism is counter to human nature. Private property rights are curtailed for the sake of equalization among all humans. But when everyone owns everything, no one owns anything... it's against our own instincts to care for and maintain "not my children or property."

Further, humans are naturally inclined by their nature to be corrupted by power; not money, power. A system which necessarily requires extremely powerful government also necessarily requires human beings, who are themselves corruptible and self interested by nature. But under communism, corrupt able self interested people have enormous power in a system that does not prioritize individual rights... a very dangerous mix.

Tl;dr: the philosophy is against human nature.

Anarchists are even worse. The general rhetoric from them is:

>World wide revolution is needed
>No state, laws, prisons, or police officers
>No hierarchy, racism, sexism, homophobia, nationalism, etc.
>No army, only horizontally organized militia with no hierarchy
>Constantly trying to stop any sort of attempts at a creation of hierarchy or state because one successful state popping up could destroy the whole anarchist ideal
>No money
>People work when they want to
>No bosses, horizontally structured work environment
>People are free to join or leave jobs at will
>Muh post-scarcity
>No organized religion because it creates hierarchy

Then you have shit like anarcho primitivism.

>Why is Communism hated
because we live in capitalism and those in control want to keep capitalism because they're benefiting from it. that's why it get's demonised so strongly by people who don't even know the first thing about socialism or marx or communism.

just look at american "fuckin commies" culture. they consider hillary to be left wing and burning sandals to be a full blown communist when in reality hillary's an aggressive neo-liberal and burning sandals holds some moderate left-of-centre ideas.

to be a communist is to be the enemy, you don't even have to learn the first thing about marxism to know this, right? communism = bad and the west = free and good. that's how we're brought up anyway.

luckily in the last few years people are beginning to realise we're not all that free under this system. hence why you get sanders and corbyn seeing large levels of popularity.

but yeah, why is it hated? because we're brought up to hate it without even considering it.

why is it wrong? it's not. doesn't mean it'd necessarily work in the west in current year. but it's no more inherently wrong than any other system. i wish people would open their minds to a bit more though. a lot of us would stand to benefit a lot from some slightly more socialist policy. not advocating a moneyless, classless society. but current state capitalism is pretty abhorrent.

>Communism is what Nazism is..minus the racial element.
No.

Nazism requires a strong state. Communism's end goal is a stateless society.

States like the USSR failed to achieve communism. They tried, and they did horrible things when they tried, but they did not succeed in the end: They were communists because they WANTED communism, not because they ACHIEVED it.

The semantic difference between being a communist (one who wants communism) and a communist (one who does communism) being so annoying to express in the English language is one of many reasons discussions on the topic are nightmarish. The USSR was the former, but not the latter.

> because we live in capitalism and those in control want to keep capitalism because they're benefiting from it.

Everyone benefits from Capitalism, you fucking child. Literally nobody benefits from communism besides those who divvy out the bland goodies. If there is nobody on top, then simply everyone suffers. What a wonderful life.

tfw cultural marxism isn't real but i wish it was

20th century history has demonstrated that Marxist-Leninist planned economies are vastly inferior and more inefficient compared to mixed, market economies

No one wants to starve to death on some shitty collective farm

It was an eccentric, idealistic and utopian experiment that failed horribly.

Name one successful communist nation that is still communist to the core, China does't count. It is a proven system to fail, every time.

This is exactly why a communist would say we needed communism.

Profit generated in a business for the business owner (who hasn't actually worked himself at this point, just set his money to work elsewhere.) being the profit for those who actually did the work in the business, as opposed to a distant manager who simply provided capital, doesn't work and earns money by merit of the fact he already has money.

I'd rather not get into an argument about the merits of that position because frankly I don't care and ain't a commie.

Communist parties trying to build communism (in theory, in practice they might just be liars kek) do this, concentrating power into their own hands.

Communism as described doesn't concentrate power into the hands of an elite political class. It has also literally never been implemented by a communist party.

Now obviously you can say if every implementation attempt has been a failure, you just can't implement the idea period.

I have an excellent, flawless answer

I want you to notice how every single "but why is communism bad?" question gets posted by a capitalist country with high GDP per capita.
I want you to also notice how most of the negative responses to those questions come from countries that were once communist.
And finally, notice how most of the positive responses to those questions come from countries, again, with high GDP per capita

>leaf
I'm not going to even bother

>Everyone benefits from Capitalism

yes those people in our rich first world countries who sleep on the side of the road and can't feed themselves are benefitting from capitalism.

all those wars that start over resources such as oil that kill thousands and destablise entire regions of the world are actually benefitting everyone, right?

the decimation of the planet for the sake of a quick profit that has ramifications for generations to come... that benefits everyone too, right?

>Literally nobody benefits from communism
do some more reading mate. you're what i'm talking about in my original post. i'm not a communist and i'm not wanting to see communism implemented here in the west. but people are so brainwashed by capitalism that merely criticising it triggers them to be irrational (like you).

you can entertain ideas without having to adopt them into your political beliefs, so it wouldn't do any harm to research marx a bit. also it's you should pull your head out of the ground if you think capitalism is benefitting everyone, jesus christ you must be almost blind or have never left the your comfort zone.

>t. 12 year old who never worked a day in his life

Kill yourself. Owning a business is more work than you think. You as a worker clock out after 8 hours, the owner puts in 10-12-14 hours just to make sure things go well so you can get paid and still have a job.

>and democracy
Does this not only apply to democracy as we conceive of it? (i.e. purely political, without also involving economic democracy, and thus by nature stifling the nature of changes that can be made as the leaders of our democracies are dependant on the people at the top and can only make changes that they're willing to accept.)

The end result being co-operatives that are democratic both economically and politically.

If the owner is putting in 10-12-14 hours, he's not the kind of owner I'm talking about here.

Commies are talking about owners who have accumulated so much wealth that they can in theory simply sit back and live off profits, paying someone else to do the actual management of the business. If you run a small business and work in it for a wage you aren't the kind of exploitative manager that commies are getting at.

Also
>telling me to kill myself for explaining how someone else thinks, as though it was my own viewpoint.

kill urself

>Hell, I'd go as far as saying that Communism is what Nazism is..minus the racial element.

Actually Fascism is just functioning Communism. They just hated each other because an enemy was needed to gain popularity and purpose.
In truth, Mussolini just perfected and evolved the totalitarian mindset.

don't you have an oligarch to serve or something? :^)

communism is a dirty word mate, it does nothing but triggers people because it'll cause them to think and they're secretly against having to do that

they're both authoritarian but they're opposite ends of the left-right spectrum. they couldn't be farther apart in that respect.

in the same way that ultra free capitalism and anarchism are both super libertarian but also opposite ends of the spectrum

The only genuine Communism that can exist is if a free society walks through that path.
Marx was correct in saying Capitalism's end goal was Communism. He just fucked up when he thought a global proletariat revolt was needed to get there.

Early 20th century America was way more Communist than the USSR ever was.

Fascism and Stalin-style "Socialism in one country" have far more similarities than many would care to admit. (Though perhaps it's more similar to Naziism in being very ad-hoc and not very consistent, whereas Mussolini did actually try and make a proper ideology of it.)

But Stalin was only a communist in the sense he pretended to want to achieve communism, not in the sense he ever did. He did achieve a personality cult and high kill counts, though.

Society needs classes in order to function, destruction of all class only leaves a vacuum for which a new class structure can surface, and it will inevitably surface.

They're really not, they both wander around the same axioms. The difference is Communism is based upon class revolt, whereas Fascism is based on national unity. Mussolini spotted Lenin's mistake of thinking Communism would work if people just took power. He knew there needed to be a god-like transcendent motivation, which is why the national myth was created and nationalism took form.
In reality Fascism is a rejection but also an improvement on Communism.

I agree completely

But user all of that is true for wage slave capitalism too

Because communism is based only on resentment, negation of property and employer-employee relations and must lead to constant destruction. There's no order out of communism