The Cultural Marxists were just cultural theorists and in fact warned against the dangers of a fake/manufactured Culture Industry driven only by the commodification and falsification of genuine culture (hence their concept "The Culture Industry").
With the British Cultural Marxists wanting to defend local community cultures against this "massification" of culture (hence their concept of massification).
...and they were in fact ANTI-CENSORSHIP; with with Richard Hoggart and Raymond Williams of The Birmingham School standing up against censorship at The Lady Chatterley trial. A censorship trial which is thought to have made Britain in the 1960s into a more permissive society.
Adorno was even PROTESTED by feminists in his day, and the modern incarnation of The Frankfurt School is still writing AGAINST Identity Politics; pointing out that economic class is a more important factor to oppression than the social categories of identity politics.
>i'll just link wikipedia pages which define terms I use so that means im right
Wyatt Martin
>Hello alt-right fellows; I'm here to bust your myth
Good thing I'm not alt-right
John Evans
It proves those terms exist; and if you read what they meant and who came up with them (this information doesn't have to be from Wikipedia; it can be from any sources you find the terms) - you will see these concepts are FOR a genuine culture; and rally against the manufacturing of false profit driven cultures.
Carter Thomas
From history you see, before the 1960s we had a great college system. A system that was shitting out the greatest minds in the world. The system that generated the people who created, maintained and managed the world up until just recently.
During the 50s, the united states was fighting a cold war. A war against communism and its poison. Unfortunately for the united states, its number 1 rule is freedom of speech. The soviet union saw this and used it. During the late 50s the soviet union had our university system infiltrated. By the mid 60s you see, out of absolutely NOWHERE, the student base at most colleges suddenly go "revolutionary".
You have to keep in mind that there was no "counter culture" in america in the 50-60 beyond wearing a fucking leather jacket.
The concept of students advocating frankfurt school ideology SO SOON after mcarthyism is simply hilarious.
Go read a book you stupid kike.
I would start with "the naked communist"
its a book written in the early 50s by an FBI agent who predicted everything that would happen as a result of soviet subversion on our society.
it reads like a fucking history book
Nicholas Anderson
But it is through massification that the present-day cultural marxists push their agenda, so suck my cock ya stupid bitch.
Ethan Gomez
Marx didn't want the reality of Soviet Russia either.
That doesn't mean that when put into practice the theory will be applied correctly, or even work as intended.
James Bennett
>"the naked communist"
Was written by a guy trying to start a nuclear war; he literally lists the first two "rules of communism" as:
1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
....he's trying to phrase it so that the USA will strike first; because that was his agenda. That was his paranoia/fear.
Also; converting a written philosophy into 45 opinionated rules is bullshit. It's just a bullshit move.
Hunter Martinez
Massification; which they objected to. (as you can see by reading about the concept)
>Hoggart's argument is that "the mass publicists" were made "more insistently, effectively and in a more comprehensive and centralised form today than they were earlier" and "that we are moving towards the creation of a mass culture, that the remnants of what was at least in part an urban culture 'of the people' are being destroyed".
The right wing of politics has hoisted a lie upon you.
Isaiah Rogers
Contin'd
"In his study Hoggart looks at pulp fiction, popular magazines and newspapers and the movies and finds in all of these, "drift". He documents the break-up of the old, class culture, lamenting the loss of the close-knit communities and their replacement by the emerging manufactured mass culture. Key features of this are the tabloid newspapers, advertising, and the triumph of Hollywood. These "alien" phenomena have colonized local communities and robbed them of their distinctive features. Hoggart's attack is not on popular culture; rather it is on mass culture which is imposed from above. "Popular culture" being self-created has a fundamental integrity and evolves according to its own laws and dictates, not as a result of the mass media"
Andrew Richardson
>Was written by a guy trying to start a nuclear war; he literally lists the first two "rules of communism" as:
well thats what was happening. It also doesn't help your argument when the KGB and the FBI admit to cultural marxism.
I'd take their advice over your Wikipedia articles
too bad altright is a made up bullshit thing that doesnt exist
2 out of 10 for effort
Benjamin Thomas
youtube.com/watch?v=4YGnPgtWhsw Watch this video. Adorno criticized capitalist consumerism, he did not think about subverting entire race or peoples, he was just very idealistic person.
Connor Torres
>well thats what was happening. It also doesn't help your argument when the KGB and the FBI admit to cultural marxism.
That video doesn't say anything about The Frankfurt School or the concept of Cultural Marxism; it lists a bunch of things the Frankfurt School wrote AGAINST (ie. The Authoritarian Personality, the Moralization of thought)
But Yuri Bezmenov is in no way connected to the The Frankfurt School or Birmingham School.
You've been given a red herring, and now see them as related, even though they aren't.
Michael Flores
For a concept to exist all it needs is a name and a description.
Ryder Thompson
>That video doesn't say anything about The Frankfurt School or the concept of Cultural Marxism
Yet connecting the dots is simple. McCarthy was right.
Anthony Campbell
Connect the dots between what? Being against the culture industry to being in control of it?
You may as well connect the dots from communism to capitalism and decide that communists control capitalism....
...which is pretty much what you're doing anyways.
It's okay to have an error in your thinking; if an only if you correct it when you notice it.
Jackson Fisher
It's also well established that wikipedia has been brigaded by Marxists to hide cultural Marxism.
Christopher Lee
Well established by that one guy in that one picture...
....that might be "well established" for you; but not by my standards.
Gavin Gutierrez
He didn't even nominate the article for deletion; and besides the previous article only had 9 sources; only 3 of which used the term "Cultural Marxism"; the current section has like 30 sources all using the term.
Brody Richardson
The fact that you're linking Wikipedia and trying to sway opinion on something that's been proven shows me you have no standards anyways. Fuck off retard.
Dylan Morgan
Well established by the guy they tried to pigeonhole into being the authoritative basis for their reworking of the narrative.
Of course, you could try doing actual research next time, rather than just believing what you read on the encyclopedia edited by known Marxists.
Landon Morales
If you hover over the link in that article; they're not talking about the same page. They're talking about the "Frankfurt School Conspiracy Page" I'm talking about "Cultural Marxism"
I use Wikipedia because it includes sources you can click on and read for yourself; like this one in which Adorno complains about "easy going liberalism" and "Jewish intellectuals" who make up a false "Culture Industry"
Also; yes; I read Marxists for the opinions of Marxists; Just like I read an-caps if I want their opinions. Guilty as charged.
What I won't do is read Christians for the scientific opinion; or republicans for the Marxist opinion; as that would be retarded.
Ethan Nelson
>trying to sway opinion on something
So anyone trying to argue anything is automatically wrong because they're trying to sway opinion??
All opinions are just absolute and set for you; and so nothing can be discussed???
REALLy?
Ethan Williams
Then you'll never get an understanding of the legitimate Republican (or republican, if you prefer) criticisms of Marxism, but that's neither here nor there.
Because you've clearly never heard of editorial bias. It's cute that the wiki editors will spoonfeed you the one passage that supports their thesis. That's like listening to an islamist cite the koran passage that to kill an innocent is to kill all of humanity, right before he sings a nasheed and decapitates a shiite.
But if you were really the critical thinker you seem to want to be, then you should note that the article I linked was published in 2014 when the Cultural Marxism page was *replaced* and redirected to the Frankfurt School Conspiracy page.
Now take 30 seconds to think about that. Reread that sentence. Tell me what you think that means vis a vis the broader topic of our conversation here.
Luis Reyes
I know this gets overused around here, but what you just did is an actual example of a straw man.
If you want to argue against him, try to not put words in his mouth.
David Jones
I think it means I'm going to go to the 1960s and 70s sources in order to get the original meaning of "Cultural Marxism" before the right wing got hold of it; and I've done that.
You believe Cultural Marxism is some plot to destroy America; but can't sight any sources or reasons for your beliefs.
I've cited ACTUAL concepts the ACTUAL Frankfurt School and Birmingham School came up with an discussed.
You're pointing at some article from 2 years ago...
You see what I'm saying.
You want to be a critical thinker; at least do some basic primary-source research on the topic.
Levi Stewart
>You want to be a critical thinker; at least do some basic primary-source research on the topic. >from the guy citing wikipedia
What it means is that Marxists can replace entire wikipedia pages, and put forth "conspiracy theory" pages in their place.
Nolan Hill
Taking someones statement to it's logical conclusion isn't a strawman; it's hyperbole for a rhetorical purpose.
The difference being that a strawman is held up over time and stops the conversation from progressing - where as hyperbole if used correct skips over that section of the debate and progresses on without it.
I'm trying to progress this discussion away from "Wikiepdia is evil jews" which says nothing about The Frankfurt School and what they actually said.
Gavin Allen
That's great but I've shown you primary sources that aren't from Wikipedia. Eg.
So this alt-right conception of "Frankfurt School Cultural Marxism" is just absolutely incorrect.
The alt-right have out and out been lied to.
Adam Brown
Can a person be opposed to globalism, but still be supportive of consumerism? To me, most of the criticisms of consumerism on here sound like a Marxist critique of decadentism, but blaming the Jews.
Is there anything wrong with desiring stuff, as long as it is manufactured by first-world labor being paid a decent wage and you can afford it? That's the backbone of capitalism, right?
Kevin James
>Taking someones statement to it's logical conclusion That's not what you did. You took a portion of his response ("trying to sway opinion on something") out of context ("the fact that you're linking wikipedia... that's been proven") and rather than address his criticism ("shows me you have no standards") you put words in his mouth ("anyone trying to argue anything is automatically wrong") even though you know that's an absurd statement, which you then attack as a strawman ("all opinions are just absolute and set for you?").
It's almost as though you have... heard of logic, but... never actually practiced it.
before the thread expires, then I'm sorry but you don't understand the nature of our discussion.
Or perhaps you expect me to subject myself to the same uncritical analysis irrespective of editorial bias that you chose.
Oh, and if I want a Marxist viewpoint, then I'll read Marx (and Engels). Which I have. I think you haven't.
Chase Miller
That's a cute way to run away, but I'm afraid it doesn't get you any points, even rhetorically.
So what's your goal here, exactly?
Luke Roberts
Thanks for being here mate. Someone needs to tell the two or three alt-right people on this board what's up.
Cameron Taylor
Respond to literally any of the arguments raised by Kevin MacDonald in The Culture of Critique. It's not so much what Jewish intellectuals say, but that they have a unique history of critiquing Gentile ideologies and view themselves as being in a elevated position to remedy Gentiles of their "foolish" thinking, saving themselves from the inevitable pogroms that would result if they just left the dumb goys alone and simmering in resentment at the cleverness of the Chosen People.
Isaac White
>Adorno was even PROTESTED by feminists in his day, and the modern incarnation of The Frankfurt School is still writing AGAINST Identity Politics; pointing out that economic class is a more important factor to oppression than the social categories of identity politics.
based adorno btfo the sjws
Levi Long
I'm right here baby; no fear that I'll run away.
...and your argument being "I haven't read the sources and I won't check them - but I assure you I have read marx" doesn't say much.
I've explained the sources and posted key paragraphs backing up my explanation. You have given literally nothing to prove your side of the debate; other than your word that you're definitely more well read and don't need to argue.
>No argument found.
Zachary Ross
I believe race and culture are two separate things. That's my response.
Ryder Perez
Adorno was great but it is HABERMAS who the modern leftists take after. You can find him cited by almost every current leftist intellectual. No one cares about Adorno anymore unfortunately.
Oliver Allen
I should read about him then. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
Gavin Wilson
But Habamas criticizes post-modernity; so isn't that a good thing?
But they are both wrong. The most important driver of class differences in a society that is not profoundly totalitarian (read: is not a Stasi/KGB "pulled out of your house at 3AM with a sack on your head" shithole) is intelligence.
Except under the most blatant oppression, intelligent, healthy people will always succeed at life, irrespective of class or SJW pronouns type bullshit.
Brandon Baker
I used to think anyone could be taught anything; but basically I don't know. I'm not seeing someone with downsyndrome doing advanced physics anytime soon... but maybe I'll just google that and see what comes up.
Logan Lewis
I'm not educated enough on Habermas to understand what theories have been adopted by the modern left or perhaps if they misunderstood him. It's just something I've noticed in citation pages when going through university.
Tangent, but I do like Fredrich Jameson's critiques of post-modernity although he's a Marxist.
Jace Edwards
>Except under the most blatant oppression, intelligent, healthy people will always succeed at life, irrespective of class or SJW pronouns type bullshit. Imo, you can say class struggle is very much an important issue to adress. It's part of economic determinism.
Adrian Powell
>Hello alt-right fellows You're in the wrong place faggot.
Levi Foster
Sorry I didn't remember where I was; I faggot!
I faggot where I wuz!!!
Evan Williams
Marxists ruined Russia's literature beyond repair
Jordan Robinson
I was about to read all that crap but then i noticed your flag.
Connor Rodriguez
Yeah; fascist communism can ruin things as much as any fascism can (which is a lot).
John Brown
My argument was that you read wikipedia, and excerpts linked from wikipedia, and that makes you think you're right, but you really need to read more to understand what you're talking about.
Psychological projection is a very interesting phenomenon when you think about it. Your criticism of me is that you think I'm pretending to have read Marx, but am not making an argument.
Thomas Cruz
>Is there anything wrong with desiring stuff, as long as it is manufactured by first-world labor being paid a decent wage and you can afford it? That's the backbone of capitalism, right? But the whole problem behidn this is that it's not manufacutred by first world labor but third world labor paid bellow minimum wage that sometimes even you can't afford in first world countries. :/ No, I don't think it's wrong to desire stuff, but a lot of our problem is with rampant consumerism desu.
Oliver Hernandez
Right, because all those Syrians and Afghans are going to be sporting lederhosen as soon as they get acquainted with their newfound homeland. Get the fuck outta here.
Culture is nothing but the product of a geographically contiguous, genetically similar peoples interacting over time. It is categorically shaped by environment,genetics, and a bit of chance, none of which are guaranteed to produce compatible neighbors when you transplant one group somewhere they have no business being.
Unfortunately, some cultures seem to have developed traits that never fail to elicit the same negative responses across time and space, from their rich and poor neighbors alike. Race and culture are two separate things my ass.
Xavier Moore
I'm actually a dirt poor romanian typing from my gypsy wagon via a proxy.
Ryder Thomas
Culture is also product of imperialism and colonialism yet I don't see 4/pol/ fight against that, lol.
Ayden Campbell
>No, I don't think it's wrong to desire stuff, but a lot of our problem is with rampant consumerism desu.
It's worse than that now; we have fiat opinions because the filter bubble is now a market for capturing and holding opinions.
What the stock market did to creating money without value; filter-bubble politics is now doing for creating opinion without fact.
Bentley Peterson
This only applies when a society is so oppressive, it systematically bars the education of certain groups of people. Nowhere in the first world does this still occur, yet we hammer this issue to death in attempting to explain disparities in educational outcomes.
We have the most extensive publicly funded apparatuses to discover, nurture, and direct talent that have ever existed in the world. We have tax payer funded libraries and museums. Internet is ubiquitous. The only limitation is the inherent capacity to understand and learn.
If there ever was some genius inner city black kid who had to give up on his dreams to raise his 5 younger siblings, I can guarantee you that person is much less likely to slip through the cracks now than ever before. We practically beg to hand that person the keys to the castle, but we rarely do. Why? Because such people simply do not exist in great number for reasons rooted in biology and amplified by degenerate culture/environment.
Dylan Reed
But that doesn't necessarily mean that social motility is ensured.
It's like how it takes teams of scientists are now required to make scientific discoveries. Gone are the days of lone scientists working in obscurity making discoveries; it's now done by large pharmaceutical companies who have the money and personal for massive-scale research efforts.
In the same way; those with money and power have a vested interest in keeping it and will (and do) abuse the system via lobbyists and co-operative monopolies (cartels) to destroy competition from even entering into a market.
So you will never be as rich as someone born into one of these cartels. That's the true nature of capitalism.
Samuel Martinez
I tend not to disagree with things that actually worked until an inverted concept of the white man's burden led us to let the lunatics run the asylum. We didn't hand over rule to colonized people because we though it would work.
We did so because their ineptitude was an embarrassing counterargument against a particularly odious kind of feel-good Lysenkoism foisted on us by post-Marxists like these Frankfurt School chucklefucks.
Jaxon Carter
When you are intelligent, your intellect is itself capital, which can come to command money and power if leveraged in the right ways.
A lot of it is choice, personality, and the culture of the sector you get into. Start-ups are ubiquitous in tech, but rare in boomed/pharma, but that is starting to change.
Bottom line is that someone with brains will have skills or the ability to obtain skills, which gives them choices. Your average poorfag wagecuck can say "Hey that machine learning stuff is really on the rise" and be powerless to place themselves in that arena through education or self-study. The smart person can. This applies to any area of entrepreneurship, business, and networking. Increasing intelligence doesn't just produce returns when it's exercised in ivory tower, academic settings.
Cameron Martinez
Rich and smart will always beat poor and smart.
Hence why things like the wealth gap are of genuine concern; and not just Marxist bs.
Owen Scott
Cred Forums is mostly teenage boys from 1980-2005
They didn't really have much to do with colonialism or imperialism desu
But they sure have been forced by the World around them to feel guilty about it.
Son paying for the sins of their fathers etc etc
Jackson Carter
You think there is an equality in intelligence
Your axiomatic belief in class structure is holding you back from seeing what really is
Sebastian Ramirez
don't be so class-reductionist! support identity-politics instead you infidel!
Owen Wood
I agree with this; but the logic must also be applied to "Cultural Marxism"/The Frankfurt School re; identity politics.
Joseph Fisher
You'll have to explain what you mean by this, I am late to the thread.
Christopher Sanders
Look if you want super-rich pricks tied deeply into a government locking you out of autonomy and sovereignty thats up to you; but my class consciousness says it's a bad idea.
I'm not rich; and you probably aren't either (face it we're debating on Cred Forums we're definately not rich);
So you can either deal with where you're at and what's important to keep separate (industrial power and political power) or you can wish them to be one corporatist state.
But personally I don't think that's a good idea.
Nolan Gutierrez
See OP; The Frankfurt School get blamed for identity politics and post modernism but had nothing to do with it; and in fact fight against it.
Xavier Sanders
But that is what is going to happen irrespective of what you do desu
You are just another useful idiot for them in their quest for autonomy from the rest of mankind.
I care veey little for material wealth because it means very little to me.
What makes you think I personally advocate for a corporatist state? I think all systems of poltics and their polemics are dysfunctional due to human nature. The only solution is to either revert to our natural state or progress beyond what we are now
Adam Garcia
Are you going to post this thread every night until we like it?
Jacob Wood
But user even if you were correct about frankfurt school being one of the main inspirations for cultural relavatism and post modernism you got my analogy backwards.
Despite whatever their personal beliefs about mass culture and identariansim are they are one of the more influential groups in forming cosmopolitan thought.
Least of all the obfuscation that surrounds all of these ideologies and politcal philsophers leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
Sebastian Brown
take marxism and replace "the worker" with "women" and "the bourgeoisie" with "men"
you now have cultural marxism. now do the same thing with any """oppressed"""/oppressor groups
but even if it sounds exactly like marxism, even its proponents are likely to be actual marxists, even if it's only pushed by the far left, even though pretty much every socialist college student group is also a cultural marxist group, even though a self-described cultural marxist removed the page from wikipedia and had it relink to le conspiracy theory, there's no connection between the two?
The Frankfurt School is actually really interesting and pretty redpilled, even if it's in a slightly twisted way. Glad to see someone knowing what it is for once
Ethan Mitchell
If you think Cultural Marxism is just a "codeword" for "SJW" then yeah; you're going to see connections everywhere (because that's what the rightwing media have told you); but that's not what the Frankfurt School were about; as evidenced in OP.
It's like going to a Satanist to ask about Christianity; you're going to get an obscured view every single time.
