How would you rate Miyazaki as a storyteller, script writer, and picture drawer?

How would you rate Miyazaki as a storyteller, script writer, and picture drawer?

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2chan.us/wordpress/2009/07/11/mamoru-oshii-toshio-suzuki-ponyo-vs-sky-crawlers/

Bitter old fart/10

Great great good

9/10, 9/10, 10/10

Don't post paedophiles on Cred Forums.

Overrated Oldfag/10

I have seen all his movies. I liked 3.

>Mononoke Hime
>Spirited Away
>Porco Rosso

Rest was boring slow paced shit.

Then why did you keep watching them?

What is so wrong about falling in love with a twelve year old?

gf insisted... She's now my ex and he stopped making movies so it works out.

He doesn't write scripts, so good and great.

He's one of the very few creators in anime who can hold their own when compared to the best of other arts. Indisputably a master of his craft.

>storyteller
7/10
>script writer
5/10
>picture drawer
9/10

Miyazaki's strength is the visual direction

So why did you grade his capabilities as an animator highest?

>all this butthurt against good ol' Miyazaki because he BTFO the moe shit that is ruining the industry
Cred Forums tears are delicious.


who are you quoting?

I could care less about Moeshit. He's just a pretentious oldfag who makes mediocre movies. He gets a lot of praise because people like his visual direction and he polished the right knobs at Disney.

Nice try concealing your anal devastation.
It didn't work, but nice try nonetheless.

>mediocre

Colonel Sanders/10

Miracle of the universe

>storyteller

Mediocre. Miyazaki has no understanding of pacing or proper story "flow". What he excels at are crafting vignettes or certain scenes that are sublime in their own right, like the train scene in Spirited Away or the first 5 minutes of Ponyo. Most of his movies are just these vignettes stitched together, like Totoro, Kiki's, Ponyo, Spirited Away, Howl's etc. This endless show-off of vignettes works well in movies like Totoro, where there really is no actual source of conflict, but in movies like Howl's or Ponyo, it comes across as being aimless and annoying. And jesus, he sucks at endings.

>script writer

He doesn't really have scripts and his dialogue is nothing to write home about. If you saw the script for Totoro as just a piece of paper you would think it's one of the most boring things ever written.

>picture drawer

Excellent, and anyone who denies this is a moron. He has a very unique style that is easily recognizable, and has a solid understanding of design. The only problem are the fact that he seems to only have a grand total of 5 character designs because they all look the same from movie to movie. Also, he's a poor mangaka.

name someone good at endings

American detected, go play your xbox and watch the avengers while us adults discuss art.

He did well telling a story in Future Boy Conan but I am guessing at that point in his career directing a TV series he had much less creative control.

It really does say something about anime though that his films outshine the majority of other anime films even though I agree with that vignette criticism.

I think that is a problem with anime films generally though, a lot of them feel like the main creativity behind it just had one cool idea like an image or concept in their head and wanted to animate it so they just made up a story as an excuse for the high budget animation. Takahata does a good job of getting past that on most of his films.

>picture drawer
user pls

Anno. Dead serious.

I don't think you know anything about film, especially of the animated kind. Shitting on Miyazaki, and Disney too by the way, is a sure mark of a peasant trying to fit in with the cool kids.

Nobody and that's fine.
The ending doesn't matter in that culture.

>He sucks at endings
Which of his movies had shit endings?

I think Miyazaki's movies "work" because his vignettes are exceptional. His attention to detail and general aesthetic in his art is just really wonderful to look at. You're so immersed in each scene that it's hard to not be moved. It's only when you're done with one of his movies and you process it as a whole that you realize that they aren't very strong as individual stories. Most of them lack a rising action, climax, and catharsis. But you can't really say that any of his movies are plain or boring, unless you have the attention span of an ADHD junkie.

It's a problem that I feel is unique only to Miyazaki. Watching movies by others like Oshii or Takahata, I don't get that impression. Regardless of what people say about the quality of their movies, none of theirs comes across as being aimless like Miyazaki's.

dumb plotfags

This. The guy can make some really good lively scenes but the stories, characters and pacing always leave me wondering why people praise him and Ghibli to high heaven. Spirited Away was a really good first third of a story but then they just cut it before it could unfold properly.

Are you American, perchance? This complaint feels insanely American.

Nausicaa, Spirited Away, Howl's, Ponyo. Those are the obviously bad endings. His other movies like Kiki's or Totoro don't have endings so much as Miyazaki realized the movie needed to end and threw in some random abrupt conflict in the last 5 minutes that gets solved in 2 minutes.

His best ending is actually Porco Rosso, which ironically many people say has the worst one because they missed how subtle it was.

>This complaint feels insanely American.

You can fuck off back to spicland then, Pablo.

Well Oshii is always telling someone elses story 90% of the time so that makes it easier, it is mostly the original anime movies that actually suffer from this "cool idea/concept" but no/weak fundamental story problem I think. When I watch an original anime film I really never expect a great deal from the story and am just watching for the higher budget animation. Takahata's work is mostly adaptations too or in some cases loose adaptations.

Did I hit a sore point there?
Mexico is America too, and most likely suffers the same cultural issues I am thinking of here.

To be fair, Miyazaki did say he planned for it to be a really complex movie where the plot involved Zenibaba to be the real big bad at the end, but that made the movie go over three hours and so he had to bullshit some kind of ending to make it work in a little over two hours.

Conflict resolution and goal oriented art is a specifically western concept.

>Well Oshii is always telling someone elses story 90% of the time so that makes it easier

I don't know if you've read the source material for GiTS (Shirow's manga) but it is nothing at all like Oshii's movie. His other movies like Patlabor 1 and 2 were also all his own handiwork, and he was even the guy who wrote Jin-Roh, which was nearly flawless as a story.

Miyazaki himself adapted many books into movies, like Kiki's, Howl's, and Ponyo, but they all deviated heavily from the source material, often times for the worse (like Howl's).

I disagree with Spirited Away, but it's not like he hasn't done good endings either. See Princess Mononoke.

Making a legible story is not a western concept, newfriend. Regardless, it's all about execution. There's nothing wrong with being aimless if it gives Totoro and Kiki. But everything blows up when you do it with something conflict-driven, like Howl and Ponyo, both of which were adapted from western stories.

>storyteller
7
>script writer
5
>picture drawer
7
>director
9

Sugee, same scores. And yeah, by director I mean visual direction.

Spirited Away's entire conflict was solved in the last 5 minutes by Chihiro passing Yubaba's test. There was no build-up for it and it all kind of came out of nowhere. It's almost as tacky as the scarecrow that turned out to be a prince in Howl's. And I'm not even going to get into how Haku reveals himself to be a river that Chihiro was in when she was young in the last 2 minutes as an excuse to avoid her affections.

Yeah I suppose you are right to be honest. I don't read manga at all I have heard they are quite different I just didn't put much thought into it. I just got into anime through a long interest in international film about 15-16 years ago and carried on watching it since.

Yes, he has made solid endings before, but those are a minority. Of all his movies the only ones I can say that had a satisfying ending were Porco Rosso, Mononoke, Laputa, and Cagliostro.

They're hardly illegible. Howl's Moving Castle, for example, isn't a "story" - it's many narrative threads interwoven into a greater tapestry. The movie isn't even remotely interested in walking a straight line, and I'd say it demands multiple viewings to truly understand.

>Howl's Moving Castle, for example, isn't a "story"

It is. It has a conflict, rising action, and resolution. Problem is that the resolution was stupendously half-assed. It's nothing on a metaphorical level like EoE or the Utena movie. It fails as both an adaptation and a movie.

Sure, but the glint of Chihiro's hair tie as she exits the cave with her parents in the same way she entered redeems the nonsensical plot resolution.

I thought The Wind Rises had a good ending, but I'm probably in the minority.

storyteller: very good
script writer: decent
picture drawer: technically skilled, good composition and direction, bland character design, sleepy aesthetic. it's not "anime" by modern standards.

>it's not "anime"
this my favorite inside joke, it's just so ridiculous

>Sure, but the glint of Chihiro's hair tie as she exits the cave with her parents in the same way she entered redeems the nonsensical plot resolution.

I don't know if it redeems it, but it certainly is the kind of touch and attention to details that you would expect from a Miyazaki movie. That kind of immersion just removes any doubts you would have about the movie until the very end.

>I thought The Wind Rises had a good ending, but I'm probably in the minority.

I'm not sure how I feel about the ending for that. It ties up all the plot points and the build-up was good, but the whole "I don't care about all the dead people, my beautiful planes are the ones getting wrecked". It was a rather cold message. But it was conveyed properly.

This is because you can't see the film using a structure that isn't western mainstream cinema.
Your fixation on this one form of making a film shows how utterly clueless you are. You don't understand what film is about, you just spout this retarded shit and it makes me sick.

>This is because you can't see the film using a structure that isn't western mainstream cinema.

I can, pal. If you deny that it doesn't have a conflict, rising action, and resolution, you are delusional. All the more since it was based on a book written by a western author.

>You don't understand what film is about, you just spout this retarded shit and it makes me sick.

Tell me your credentials then, Mr. Neckbeard NEET living in his parent's basement.

>Mediocre. Miyazaki has no understanding of pacing or proper story "flow". What he excels at are crafting vignettes or certain scenes that are sublime in their own right, like the train scene in Spirited Away or the first 5 minutes of Ponyo. Most of his movies are just these vignettes stitched together, like Totoro, Kiki's, Ponyo, Spirited Away, Howl's etc. This endless show-off of vignettes works well in movies like Totoro, where there really is no actual source of conflict, but in movies like Howl's or Ponyo, it comes across as being aimless and annoying. And jesus, he sucks at endings.

Are you Oshii? This is literally what he said about Miyazaki in an interview with Suzuki about Ponyo.

I think you're viewing it through a western lens and while it's fair to not like the film because it doesn't conform to that, I think it's a poor judgement of the film.

>O: "No, it was interesting to watch. What I mean by that is that Miya-san’s wild ideas are interesting to watch. The problem is that it wasn’t a real movie. It wasn’t put together like a proper movie. Not one bit."

>O: "Even if he doesn’t want to admit it. In the end, it was something he needed. So what he wanted to do was to remove those things, make a movie, and see what happened. That’s why I’m saying, I acknowledge that he is a wonderful creator of delusions. The most incredible delusions in Japan, no, the world. That’s apparent."
>S: "So basically, what he wanted to do was to draw up everything that he thought of, and then make a movie out of that. You know what I mean?"
>O: "But you see, you can’t make a film out of that. Each individual delusion was incredibly interesting. They’re all just overflowing with expressiveness. The first ten minutes were flawless. You know the scene where she surfaces while riding the jellyfish? I thought that the sequence was really good. So like I said, each individual scene is entrancing."

>O: "A scene with no motivation at all shouldn’t sit well with people. But even so, people are entranced by the scene, and that’s because of the overwhelming expressive power that the movie has."

2chan.us/wordpress/2009/07/11/mamoru-oshii-toshio-suzuki-ponyo-vs-sky-crawlers/

That's a bullshit excuse and you know it. You can judge many other anime movies like the ones I've mentioned before through any lens you choose and very few of them will have the same issues I mentioned before about Miyazaki's movies. Just because it's Japanese doesn't mean it doesn't follow human logic.

This is a fairly common criticism of Miyazaki. The other one is that his movies are didactic.

>artificially induced cultural context
>human logic

You misunderstand what I am saying, probably because you don't read English very well.
Re-read the exact sentence you quoted.

I never once claimed that the film didn't have these things, it is after all based on a western work, apparently.
These ideas are a framework, for both making and viewing a film.
You see all these points line up and you can decide whether these things are done well or not and blah blah blah and judge the film based on that.
This is what you are doing, this is your core method of criticism.

You are looking at the film using a structure that is employed mainly in western mainstream cinema.

Are you following?
Do you understand what I am saying here?

This is in no way a bullshit excuse, this idea is the foundation of one of the most important things in 20th century philosophy.

>storyteller
who cares
who cares
>picture drawer
pretty good. But ruins others great talent.

>didactic

I wouldn't call his movies that. They do relate to it and are sometimes heavy-handed about it, but Miyazaki intends his movies to entertain first and foremost. The problem is that Hollywood and it's very liberal agenda are forcing labels on his movies like "saving the environment" and "strong female characters unlike old Disney" that distort the overall message and meaning of his films.

Western logic, you mean.

Disney didn't make anything great in years tho

Of course not, but when talking about Disney it should be clear what we're talking about.

>You are looking at the film using a structure that is employed mainly in western mainstream cinema.

It is bullshit, because you can apply your same viewpoint to any other anime movie, even some of the ones done by Miyazaki, and they won't have problems in that regard. Howl's is nonsensical. You have yet to explain why it works as a movie, other than throwing out blind fanboy claims that "it's Japanese you dun get it" despite the fact that this is a fucking anime board. Take that cock out of your mouth and start typing something that is actually relevant ti the conversation, not bullshit your 11th grade English teacher told you to make you feel better about your shitty essay.

>this idea is the foundation of one of the most important things in 20th century philosophy.

Could you tip your fedora any harder?

rude post

Go back to your safe space on Tumblr then.

These are incredibly rude posts and you are clearly agitated, so I'll make this quick and painful:

>you can apply your same viewpoint to any other anime movie
Let's do something from the east that isn't anime then:
You are familiar with Wong Kar-Wai, I hope. You really should be.
His films, constantly praised and highly acclaimed, are completely nonsensical if viewed using a western frame of reference. You have seen Chungking Express at least, right?

>Could you tip your fedora any harder?
Could you be any more anti-intellectual. Denying that structuralism wasn't extremely important is just ridiculously retarded.

Movies are for fags

ok buddy

he says, invalidating every one of his posts prior to this one

...

I don;t even need to go outside of Japan to prove you wrong.

Have you ever seen a single anime by Ikuhara? Or Satoshi Kon? Their works would also be nonsensical if viewed from a traditional perspective. They don't rely heavily on the three-part story structure, and use strong emphasis on metaphore and animalism. Not at all like Miyazaki's movies, but the same Japanese foundation. Yet, even their works there is still a logic to them, despite how much the chronology may change.

The problem with Howl's is that it DOES use a three part story structure, and it absolutely fucking sucks at it. You cannot defend this movie by employing the same excuses for Ikuhara and Kon, because it doesn't execute as well as what they did, and it doesn't try to be what they did since it follows traditional structure. You have also failed to explain WHY it works as a movie other than regurgitating the same "IT'S ASIAN DON'T QUESTION IT" bullshit.

>These are incredibly rude posts

Serious question is this your first week here on Cred Forums?

>Could you be any more anti-intellectual. Denying that structuralism wasn't extremely important is just ridiculously retarded.

What's more ridiculously retarded is how you can think you can back out of this argument just by spewing words you don't even know the meaning of without engaging in the meat of the argument itself. All that's been clear to me from this whole argument is that you are a delusional fanboy.

Retirement/10.

It's fine to admit that you don't understand, nobody will think any less of you. Please don't try to save face now.
Also these ridiculously scathing remarks very much are not welcome here.

By the way, this is not what I meant with nonsensical if viewed using a western framework. You'd know that if you had actually seen Chungking Express, which you clearly have not.

>It's fine to admit that you don't understand, nobody will think any less of you.

Nice projection there buddy, it's clear you didn't read a single work of what I wrote.

>Also these ridiculously scathing remarks very much are not welcome here.

This isn't Tumblr, but if it offends you so much then please leave and never come back. I doubt anyone will miss you and your ignorance.

>By the way, this is not what I meant with nonsensical if viewed using a western framework.

Doesn't matter what you mean to say- what does matter is what you actually wrote. And what you wrote shows that you are a moron.

>You'd know that if you had actually seen Chungking Express, which you clearly have not.

You haven't seen a single Satoshi Kon or Ikuhara work, so kindly fuck off and educate yourself before spouting out your irrelevant comparisons.

At this point you aren't even defending Howl's, just your own blind ignorance.

>This isn't Tumblr, but if it offends you so much then please leave and never come back. I doubt anyone will miss you and your ignorance.
Look read what you posted again, don't you think that this is a bit overdrawn? It's almost comical.

>Doesn't matter what you mean to say- what does matter is what you actually wrote. And what you wrote shows that you are a moron.
It very much does matter, as we have established about an hour ago that you have trouble with written English.

>At this point you aren't even defending Howl's, just your own blind ignorance.
I never was defending that film, when did you even get that impression?

>Look read what you posted again, don't you think that this is a bit overdrawn? It's almost comical.

No, I think it's a pretty appropriate response for someone with such thin skin as yourself.

>We have established about an hour ago that you have trouble with written English.

Nope, I'm pretty sure that's just you and your own insecurities and projections. You have done fuck all to defend your pitiful argument.

>I never was defending that film, when did you even get that impression?

See And don't deny that you were the one who wrote it, it's clearly your autistic style of writing.

If you aren't defending Howl's as you say you are, then all you're doing right now is just throwing a tantrum because someone doesn't agree with you and called you a massive fucking faggot to your face (which you are).

>See (You)
that's not defending howl's it's shitting on your retarded formulaic criticism.

>it's shitting on your retarded formulaic criticism

My criticism was on Howl's, you massive illiterate cunt.

The only thing you shat on was your own credibility. And even now, you're still getting shat on.

>not even deleting your own (you)'s

Holy fucking shit it really is your first week here. Please fuck off back to Tumblr.

just looking at this pic makes me want to buy some fried chicken

I could go for a Big Mac, myself.