What are the benefits of making a game an ARPG over a pure action game, without leveling...

What are the benefits of making a game an ARPG over a pure action game, without leveling? All leveling does it reduce emphasis on player skill in favor of your character's skill - how high their numbers are.

If Dragon's Dogma didn't have leveling, and all damage/hp values etc were balanced around one character or a few classes with their own set stats, you wouldn't end up with situations in the game where you either anti-climatically kill enemies that were supposed to be powerful in a couple minutes, or tediously spend 30 minutes whittling down enemies that are higher level than you. Every fight could be in that sweet spot where you are just strong enough to fight the enemy, but the fight doesn't drag on for so long that it becomes boring.

>but leveling up gives a sense of progression
This can be done in other ways, like if the game had complex mechanics and you slowly got better at them yourself as the game progressed, or if they gave you more weapons and techniques to use as the game went on.

> or if they gave you more weapons and techniques to use as the game went on
Like what the game already does? And some of us like numbers going up.

>What are the benefits of making a game an ARPG over a pure action game, without leveling?
I can be an overpowered god fucking everything in one hit.

There is none

So kinda like monster hunter where it's more natural? But that game isn't really open world RPG format, but guess it could work, would take alot of planning and work which game companies dont like to do these days

Levelling is an easy way of measuring advancement towards new abilities and stronger stats. That's not bad design

It's to restrict you from reaching certain areas until the game wants you to.

it's just a different kind of progression
also DD's rpg systems are fucking awful

I get a semi when it goes from 1 to 2

You could gate ability progression with experience but have stats tied solely to gear, which DD does anyway for the most part once you hit the Endgame and Bitterbutt Isle

no, you said it perfectly. level up systems tied to an exp bar are trash

>Like what the game already does
I'm saying that should only have that to give a feeling of progression, and take out the leveling system

What do you mean by "measuring advancement"? You mean you like how certain abilities will be locked until you reach a certain level?

True, but they could've just locked you out in other ways

You can pretty go anywhere at anytime though. You can enter BBI at level 1.

Investing all those hours on acquiring skill in a single player game might not be rewarding for a large playerbase. You'd have to make the combat and encounter design interesting/rewarding enough to carry the player through the entire singleplayer.

DD a shit.

Another thing I thought of is that it helps people who are bad at the game, since they can just grind up levels and power through any encounter they want

when does Dragons Dogma begin to be fun?

Because it sure does seem boring at fuck at first, all those items to do some shitty crafting, and the combat is nowhere as good as people talked about here. I guess I fell for a Cred Forums meme, this game feels like an offline MMORPG at first.

What class are you playing and how far are you?

Don't worry about the crafting and yeah the combat is pretty shallow, but the main reason people like it is that it looks flashy

I went with bow/daggers because I heard knights were boring and bad because no ranged attacks.

I just saw that hydra snake thing get killed, it's really early in the game, already escorted that wagon across the map.

Yeah I hated the game too when I was playing strider, because with the way the game calculates damage you'll keep running into monsters that have defenses so high that you can barely scratch them. Play a red class and see if you like it, then maybe transition onto assassin later. The warrior might be the boring class you're referring to, and it's true that they become shit in the post-game dungeon

>it's true that they become shit in the post-game dungeon
Not if you spam jumping light attacks to keep things grounded forever
But that gets pretty boring

There's no objectively boring class in DD, it's just that different people have different playstyles they like best and some classes are better at it than others. Also most classes don't get really fun anyway until you start unlocking and experimenting with new abilities.

>you'll keep running into monsters that have defenses so high that you can barely scratch them.
Summon a Mage pawn to buff you, you hit so fast that the extra magic damage is pretty effective. That and the multishot abilities and that one jumping attack are pretty fucking strong until you go Ranger or Assassin and just start chunking guys.

>it's true that they become shit in the post-game dungeon

Only when you're facing metal golems by yourself. Warriors are underrated because most players never figured out how to tackle a variety of enemies without relying on Arcs or jumping light attacks.

it gets better when you can buy dodge roll to avoid being hit and when you get double jump to climb faster.

Op what you are implying is just a shittier version of leveling up. If the minute difference of seeing some numbers (exp and levels) or not seeing the numbers and getting the upgrades anyways really bothers you, you need to think about your life. I know youre suggesting a system where enemies naturally get stronger like say, in DMC for instance, it could work but the systems in which the gameplay revolves around is different. In an rpg like dd, there are no linear levels with a direct A to B progression. The exp and levels in a game like dragons dogma allow you to go off and do side content in a different order and still be properly rewarded. How could you program a large open worldto naturally progress when the player has the option to go to anything he wants? The leveling is the crutch to allow this to work well enough. In an actiom game you don'tdo that because there is only one path of progression for the player. And yes im aware you can level up styles and such in dmc but thay functioms differently than exp and player levels.

>could have restricted you in other ways
>implying getting that fist put firmly up your ass when you enter an area you're not supposed to be in only to return the favor later on isn't the best way
>shiggy

>I just saw that hydra snake thing get killed, it's really early in the game, already escorted that wagon across the map.
You're past the worst part. Now it's up to you to make the game fun. It's all about experimenting. No class starts out super fun. You have to dedicate some time to them to unlock good moves and useful passive abilities. Dress up is also a part of the fun when switching classes.

>which DD does anyway for the most part once you hit the Endgame and Bitterbutt Isle
>for the most part
>at the end of the game

ok

The game opens up a lot once you reach Gran Soren, then again when you're a high enough level to try out Bitterblack Isle (Generally 50-70 is the ballpark level, when you can easily reach 50 by the time you fight the Dragon for real)

Also yellow classes are pretty fun if you don't rely on your bow too much, also you can change your vocation at the Gran Soren Inn. Fighters are good and only hampered by their lack of ranged or elemental attacks (a weakness which can easily be covered by pawns) and Warrior is fun but is gimped because they can only have 3 skills for some stupid reason.

Mage is the most boring class, if you want to do magic just go Sorceror

Endgame is just what everyone calls it, but it really begins halfway through the game. Once BBI came out it's about the first part of the game becomes more like the first 1/3.

I generally agree with you. I used to argue about it a lot. However, the problem is that it's much more difficult to make a balanced game like that. It's even harder to make progression work in a way that it doesn't break the game or be underwhelming. It's a good ideal, but I don't think a mind exists that could make a great game with it.

>if you don't rely on your bow too much,
But the bow moves are all pretty great
Shooting the fuck out of small enemies and climbing the big ones to gouge their eyes out is fun

>The exp and levels in a game like dragons dogma allow you to go off and do side content in a different order and still be properly rewarded
What do you mean by "properly rewarded"? Gold, items and equipment wouldn't be enough?

> How could you program a large open worldto naturally progress when the player has the option to go to anything he wants?
You'd either lock them in areas until they reach certain points in the main quest, or just let them go anywhere and fight anything from the start, but give them an incentive to stay in certain areas by by having quests that need you to only operate in that area

Removing levels from Dragon's Dogma wouldn't do that much since past the very start of the game your equipment is far more important than your left

Yeah I'd also take out the weapons with identical movesets and just have one weapon of each type

Yeah you can. and then get your shit stomped in one hit by the wolves. so you can REACH areas but not actually progress in them. It's a way of making you follow the story as intended without having to make the whole game a hallway.

It's a way of hiding the rails and it's a good thing.