Put someone down in front of smash

I'm more offended you put MK and PR there

Current 2d fighters do not require the same level of execution (percison and complexity of input) to perform a special attack as older games.

Trying to teach someone to do a motion and hit another button is more difficult than it should be.

While Smash has a very simple basic inputs it is also natural and mimicked while playing other genres.

name a game that does this.

...

>"no user, down front punch"
>"no, no, do a half circle then push-"
>"no! on the controller, you have to-"
>"just do a half moon and then push the-"
>"no,no down right fierce"
>"what is fierce. is the... fuck this lets play cod."

...

If we're talking about arcade sticks, some cabinets have better gates than others. Or some shit like that. When I went to a barcade once, it had a cabinet that could play a ton of shit like metal slug, fatal fury, sf2, etc. I could barely get a move out at times. When I went to Otakon this year, they had a dengeki bunko ignition cabinet, and the moves came out easily.

Both cabinets were in excellent condition

2D fighter controls aren't super intuitive and can be pretty alien for newcomers.

Smash has the added benefit of everyone having the same input for their moves so they don't have to spend the first 30 seconds of a match trying to figure out their characters specials.

>talk to friend about playing Smash
>he's a fighting game snob
>"heh, Smash isn't a real fighting game. I would destroy you at Street Fighter."
...Yeah, you would. You go to tournaments and shit and I don't play it at all. This isn't contested at all,it's fairly common sense. I don't see why you say this every time I mention Smash.

Mainly because "button mashing" is a long-time meme amongst casualfags so they do it on instinct. A lot of modern action games (AC, Arkham) teach you that mashing in combat is okay.

Also the controls are simple in Smash whereas fighting games are more nuanced. The simple fact that Smash has a jump button whereas fighters require you pressing up is already foreign to most casuals. Throw in qcfs, dp motions, charge moves, all of which dont show up in 99% of other games, and it's like a different world to them.

In Smash you just say "up+B" and they hold "up" and press "B". If I tell them "crouching medium kick", they have to register down is crouching, then have to remember which of the 6 is medium kick. Moves are also universal for Smash characters, whereas inputs differ between fighting game characters.

TL;DR - button mash meme and different controls. Also Smash is not a fighting game

You have a autistic friend

also

>not being part of the master race of playing smash and 2D fightans alike (fuck 3D tho)
>not beating all your friends to any smashs or 2D fightans

Smash is a lot easier for people to get into, due to simpler controls and iconic characters.
It's nice too, because while Smash has simple controls, it still has some more complex mechanics here and there which can separate newer players and more experience players.
Too bad Smash isn't a fighting game

Everyone forgets how difficult it is for the layman to actually pull off something as basic as a fireball.

If you don't think people button mash when they get to smash, you're dumb as hell.

Much like what I told another friend who'd been playing Counterstrike for a decade and wanted me to get into it, I'm sure that I could, but the games/genre just doesn't seem interesting enough to me to justify the hours upon hours of sucking at it.

I started with tekken, so I'm used to mashing the face buttons. I mostly grew out of that habit once I got older, but I still do it occasionally unfortunately if I go on tilt or autopilot

I know this feel.
>Pick up a fighting game and try to learn some of it with my two friends
>One friend just keeps jump kicking the whole match.
>The other just leg sweeps the entire match.

Same. As a kid, I had no idea about Smash attacks or how to do them. I sucked at video games as a kid.

Although to answer the OP, it's almost like Smash is designed explicitly to be more accessible or something.

People who don't play fighters think they need to input as many commands as possible as fast as possible, they think that doing so leads to long powerful combos. Not even joking; it's a fundamental misconception that everyone who doesn't play fighters shares.

Smash is more accessible to these people since it's visually and mechanically akin to a platformer and a beatemup rather than a traditional fighter.

>Third Strike
Do you play Online Edition, OP?

Learning the fireball motion opens up the door to learning most other motion attackes in 2d fighters.

It's not so much hard to do but hard to understand. Also a dog was trained to thow a fireball.

Smash is well designed with intuitive controls.

2D fighters are almost all based around what Street Fighter did years ago, game design has come a long way since then, it's just not intuitive without lots of practice.

I say this as someone who loves both, Smash is just better designed in this regard.

not op but I'm on psn

I have OE on PS3 if you want to play

Doom 2

Every game I play requires standing on my head and ordering a pizza.

>Friend has no problem doing these huge ass combos woth Kenshi in MKX
>Pull out SFIII 3rd Strike and he starts mashing
What the fuck is the reasoning behind this?

mkx is a fucking trash game with dial up combos

why are you surprised

OP, the problem with your comparison is that you're putting someone that has already played smash but never played fighting games in front of both games and compare the games based on that.

People playing smash for the first time don't know how to get back on the stage, don't try to send opponents off and are just mindlessly throwing moves everywhere until they self destruct or get killed, usually the former.

Smash bros is intuitively designed whereas the others are not.

I know that, but he should at least make the connection between how specials come out between the two since he uses specials so often

My username is FREAKY_OUTIE.

Panicked reaction due to fear of the unknown. Essentially, the rational part of the brain gets bypassed and instinctive frantic action kicks in.

The human brain is a piece of shit. With the exception of people who have consciously developed (or the lucky few who instinctually developed) solid survival and adaptation strategies, humans will always panic and act on fierce instinct over reasoned analysis in any new situation, all day err day.

Whatever happened to Rising Thunder? Wasn't it supposed to be a fighting game for people like this?

They ended the alpha and were bought up by Riot, so they're probably developing a fighting game with similar mechanics for them.

It got bought by the company that owns League of Legends, so they stopped developing the game.
It's possible nothing will come out of it, buying a game for a small amount of money because it could take a good chunk of your userbase is a viable strategy.

I'm taking a shit right now but I'll get on in a bit

sent you an invite hurry up nigz

FREAKY

>fuck 3D tho

What's it like being a pleb? Let me guess, not smart enough to make an opponent whiff an attack all you know how to do is fireball when they're far and DP when they're close. Pathetic.

smash
>"yea just press the A or B button + tilt the stick in the direction your enemy is facing"
any other fighting game of OP's variation
>"yea to make a weak fireball just put in these 25 easy inputs and for a strong one put in 35"
smash > any other fighting game

OUTIE!!

Smash controls sort of like a platformer and its easy and intuitive to play.

I seriously don't get why people can't grasp the concept of doing specials in fighting games. What the fuck is so hard about doing a quarter circle motion and then pressing a button? Even my little sister can throw a fireball consistently. God fucking knows how you would cope inputting a raging demon or any move which requires a double half circle motion. You're truly pathetic.

This. OP is full of shit

They said they're developing a new game under Riot, so that probably isn't the reasoning. Might not be a fighter though.

>you're truly pathetic you dont know how to make a half circle in a shitty videogame
thanks

I will never understand people who have serious trouble doing qcf or the dp input on controllers. Qcf is literally just a swipe with a finger, and dp, while potentially having a confusing graphic in the movelist, can be done by just pressing forward, and then flattening the joint of your thumb against down. Or if your fingers don't bend like that, it's swiping your finger back and forth between forward and down.

I mean, both are extremely simple one finger movements. It baffles me people on here say that is what gives them trouble.

KOF series in general

And most fighters these days are going away from bs like the double quarter circle movement for supers and just use the single button unlike Capcom

You're truly pathetic if you don't have the motor skills to pull off a simple command in a videogame and instead opt to play a literal kids party game instead because it's "too hard" to pull off anything that isn't one direction + button.

Depending on the game, dragon punch motion can be a bit of a bitch. We're all used to it though; for people who have never played a fighting game, or only have a passing familiarity, the 6-2-3 motion is basically impossible without training.

I have them, I just don't care to learn how to play a bad game
get over yourself you're not better than anyone cause you can manage to put in 25 simple inputs for a shitty fireball move, you've just practiced playing that game longer
>"wow you can't bench 315 pounds? you just put the bar to your chest and press it back up"

This guy gets it Also
>best fighting games
>MK and fucking Primal Rage
stop
>fuck 3d tho
>"a-am I cool now guys"

Only autists will defend fighting games that aren't smash. Prove me wrong.

Face it, the genre was made with "put more quarters in and you'll someday be able to beat that other guy" in mind. If you didn't realize this back in the day, you were a sucker and still are.

Smash was intended for friends to play against each other, the buttons in SSB64 were the same they were in other Nintendo games, shit they've played before, then you tell them what's a grab.

They aren't even the same genre

I'm going to chalk it up to Smash having universal inputs. When I was a kid, I could never get anyone into fighting games. Nobody ever wanted to pause and read command lists or anything so people would pick a character, try to figure out what the moves were, fail to get anything meaningful out of it, and then pick another character and repeat until we stopped playing.

>tfw some dudes i knew from high school are having meet ups in a dudes garage with crts and old consoles
>tfw got to play real close matches of mk2 with some Argentinian dude who knew all the secrets and moves from playing at the mall in his home town

shit was fun. i even went home to get my ps3 with marvel 2 because everyone loves that game.

Because one is more advanced? With different controls and 3D graphics? So Donkey Kong Country and DK64 aren't the same genre then.

Smash has 2 attack buttons
Other fighting games have IIRC 6.

6 at the most. Some have 5, some have 4. Soul Calibur has 3.

actually no they aren't.

This reminds me, I was round my friends a few weeks ago, he put on Injustice for me and him and his son to play, I'd never played it before so on my first match I paused to check the movelist, and he and his kid basically told me 'don't pause, don't check the movelist.' I have no idea what they think a fighting game is, for them to think there;'s a problem with checking the commands.

And yet I can pretty much guarantee, just based on what I know about them personally and their taste in games, that they would call Smash 'kiddy shit' and refuse to play it. I don't play it either, but they're just retarded.

I love em, but fuck em.

...

No, one is a platformer where you jump around with completely different mechanics, your primary means of winning is entirely different, and overall the games are just clearly not designed for the purpose of creating an enviroment where the better player wins.

Rising Thunder is an actual example of a less advanced fighting game. When Smash stops having an extremely high amount of stage interaction rather than character vs character interaction that weighs heavily upon the game, and adds a lifebar rather than the only means of winning being hitting someone out of the map, then you can talk.

Smash is literally just King of the Hill but with more rules.

Apparently this was less of a problem in arcades which had like movelists printed on the side, but I wouldn't know. I've only ever seen a Mortal Kombat II cab and that definitely did not have any kind of instructions.

I wish I knew about DOA or other 3D fighting games way back when, I bet I could've gotten my faggot friends into it with only three buttons.

...

Arcana Heart has pentagram inputs.

Good talk
Final Destination. Stamina Mode.

/thread

Still, a lot of people can't comprehend having that many buttons for executions, let alone combining them into combos or pressing multiple buttons at once for a completely different attack.

Raging Storm is the worst super input in pretty much any game already, the rest of those are actually pretty simple compared to how they look

That is an extreme exception rather than the norm. You specifically have to disable items, change the default mode (which alone makes it a terrible fucking argument), and pick a specific stage for it to resemble anything similar to a fighter.

Lots of party games emulate other genres in their different modes by having pinball sections and shit like that. That doesn't make them be part of each of those genres, it just makes it possible to play them that way if you go out of your way to do it. This in turn means the entire game itself wasn't made as a fighting game.

Mentioned it specifically for the pretzel motion. After countless hours committing it to muscle memory I can do it fairly regularly, but it's still pretty bullshit.

>25 simple inputs for a shitty fireball move
The fuck kinda game that needs 25 inputs for a fireball

So one semi difficult move and the rest is nice smooth motions and smash fags think it's to hard but will then say their game is super hard and complex and link video of guys mashing the game pad as fast as possible and talk about apm

combos. end of story

This. The only "fighting" games I have ever played and liked are dissidia, and smash. I would say soul calibur 2, but I only knew how to do some moves that I learned from button mashing.

Its all about the controls, the fucking controls.

>2,3,6,punch is 25 inputs
smashniggers everyone

see

Don't get me wrong, smashfags going around screaming and shitting on the floor about how COMPLEX their game is are fucking retarded, but I can see how people think that's hard if they're not willing to commit and just want to play.

Dogs confirmed better at fightan than smash players and these autist still demand to be taken seriously

street fighter fags will defend this

>tfw I mash in smash too because I suck at fighting as a whole

I'll still play Smash, but I just don't have the patience for "traditional" fighters anymore. I really fucking hate memorizing and practicing all of the moves and shit. At least in games like Smash, you don't have to worry about how to do the moves but how to actually use them.

I think it's the movement too. Most fighters are so restricted in your movement, which usually that's not the emphasis so I can understand it. I just prefer the movement options in Smash. Hell, even Sm4sh feels too stiff to me compared to Melee.

BUt the onlt moves that require that much shit are the supers. The normal ass "fireball" is still just basically down forward punch

Maybe. Maybe it just has more modes. Dangerous arenas themselves aren't a real complaint. I answered because it even has the option to turn that off with right stages. Look at Soul Calibur, with its ring outs, ice stages, wind stages, whatever else stages. And I remember some shitty Jap game with items/power ups. It's not like these things don't exist in the genre.

If I could figure out to throw a hadoken just by mashing punch and hitting the D pad randomly before I started kindergarten then those moves aren't hard

I think you're right, the extremely strong combo emphasis of modern fighting games is a huge part of the learning curve. Don't know how it is for other people, but I have to practice that shit for hours to get it consistent, and that is definitely not conducive to casual play. So much about most fighting games is built around combos and it feels like playing a completely different game when you know what the hell you're actually doing.

I think P4A was one of the few fighting games that had some casual appeal thanks to its auto-combos actually. Moreso than the button-mashing awfulness of something like Stylish mode in BB.

The funny thing is that Smash also has super execution heavy combos and things like that (chaingrabs, tech chases, etc.), but none of the people I played with were really aware of that stuff, so it didn't bother anyone when we played.

Keep showing people that image you meme spouting faggot. Not only is that one of the most extreme cases of inputs in a fighting game, but none of those are even close to being 25 inputs

>movement
This is literally the only valid argument for preferring smash to a real fighting game

Literally not Street Fighter retard.

>one is designed to be simple, intuitive, and universal to all characters
>players can jump right into playing the game

>the other was designed when people usually put their quarters into arcade machines
>more complicated so there's a higher learning curve and players will be forced to keep playing and spend more money just to get a grasp of how to play
>the players who spend the most money will become better faster

Different eras, really. Arcades and fighting games weren't as big by the time Smash came out, which was also looking to draw in the crowd that didn't have the time or patience for more traditional fighting games.

Oh right, fucking Powerstone. That is more arena-y though.

No its not. Not having to memorize combos and move lists is entirely valid. Its why I dont play fighting games. Well, that and the controls.

>Not having to memorize combos
You still have to memorize things and know how to perform combos in smash games if you ever want to beat someone who has respectable skills at smash.

Try Pokken

It's a traditional fighter (aside from the unique phase shift stuff) and has plenty of competitive depth, but it takes's smash's approach in terms of move inputs in that they are just a button and a direction

Skullgirls also has pretty simple inputs but the combo lengths in that game are insane

Smash is more straight forward. It has fewer and attacks (sometimes FAR fewer) that have much simpler inputs and almost no attacks are just "there", i.e it's not like SFIV where a 1/3 or more of a moveset doesn't have a purpose other than slowing down progress of figuring out some combos. Fighters also tend to be more rigid in their movement options meaning you have to commit to an option and thinking ahead or about that is trickier than thoughtlessly running/rolling away

>platformer
The objective is to basically ring out your opponent through various means. That's not a platformer. The better player will always win assuming it's a neutral stage.

>it's a traditional fighter

>want to play Big Band
>easier to learn to play piano

We're not talking about people with respectable skills though, we're talking about casuals. Pick up and play.

You can explain up-throw up-air to someone, it's pretty intuitive.

Getting them to do 5B > 3C > 22C > dc dash 5C > jc j.C > j.D > j.214B >> delay 214D > 5B > 5C > 5D > 236D > dc dash 5C > 623D >> 236C > 214D from square one on the other hand, that's just not going to happen. Like not even optimal, just basic bread and buttter stuff to do reasonable damage.

Smash controls are simple and intuitive. You press up and A or B and you know you are going to do an attack with some kind of upwards motion. You press down and A in the air and you know you will attack below you. In traditional fighters the inputs are arbitrary and rarely correspond to the action your character is actually performing, it's just meant to serve as a learning curve/difficulty barrier so that some moves are harder to pull off than others, but this is frustrating to anyone who doesn't care to put in more than a few minutes just learning how to not instantly die. People just want to play.

In every other genre of game, the goal of the controls is to make sense and be intuitive. You want people to be able to easily understand how to make their character to what they want, and controls are designed to facilitate this as much as possible. The controls are simply a means for you to interact with the game and should be as straightforward as possible. Fighting games are the only ones which defy this convention. They make the controls part of the "challenge" of playing, and being able to make a character do what you want consistently is just considered part of the genre, and if you don't like it then you're just a carebear scrub faggot or whatever.

>We're not talking about people with respectable skills though, we're talking about casuals.
You were talking about yourself in your first comment. You didn't say casuals.
Unless...

This. Literally the only genre where it's acceptable to completely go against good game design.

But what can they do? If they came up with an intuitive control scheme for, say, the next Street Fighter, fans of the games would throw a bitchfit.

/thread
Everytime I played Smash Melee in a party and some new kid tried the game he played like absolute garbage.

Like? GG has SF like super inputs. KoF LOVES their 2141236 or Half Circle super inputs. What fighter has a button dedicated to supers?

>against good game design

Different user here but I always assumed it was more of a compromise due to the limited number of buttons on a console controller and the desire to include a huge variety of moves regardless.

>What fighter has a button dedicated to supers?
BB with Drive
UNIEL, if you have Exs you can use super after a combo

I don't mean like a one button super but a one quarter circle motion for a super and use a like a certain button or multiple buttons ala Marvel and Skullgirls

>Drive
>super
It's not even equivalent to a Special move.

There's nothing bad about a game designed around developing individual skill that is but one facet of the entire competitive experience. It's like saying basketball is poorly designed because you have to run a lot of individual drills in order to reach a minimum level where you can start implementing strategy.

No, the problem is that you guys want immediate gratification because of your inability to dedicate time to a single game for too long before your attention span is exhausted.

If you want to make the case that "traditional" fighters are a harder sell in today's market, that's a different discussion. But that fact does not invalidate the format from a design perspective at all.

OP didn't ask why fighting games are shit, he asked why most people have trouble playing them and don't like them.

>emerson_short

I've played you. You like pressing buttons a lot on wakeup.

I don't disagree with a lot of the points made in the thread that answer that question. I'm responding to the claims that traditional fighters are poorly-designed as a result of having barriers to entry.

It is though. Have you actually played it?

The majority of the game takes place on a 2d plane. You have lights and heavies, specials, a grab which can be teched, a block, meter, supers, and a high low system. You have option selects, juggles, reads, footsies, and mixups are all important fundamentals, etc There's even a focuis attack and focus attack dash cancelling

the only thing about it that's not traditional is the phase shift mechanic

>put someone in front of Top Gear on SNES
>They know everything that's going on and play perfectly fine.
>Understand basic concepts and get a hang of it quickly

>put someone in front of rFactor
>they literally start spinning around, divebombing and crashing at every wall

Shit that happens to lots of genres. The same would happen if you put some fag in front of a 90's pc RPG if he's used to modern shit like Dragon Age