Fightan games

You don't need to have friends to keep you going in fighting games. If you have the drive to git gud and be able to mentally handle defeat constantly you'll be able to keep up.

I have to disagree. Act a glance, yes most look the same, but at a mechanical level Tekken is far from Street Fighter, Street Fighter is very different from KoF and KoF is radically different from GG. Movement options, meter management, Oki and teching, they are all different. Hell I could throw MvC or UNIEL into the mix. MvC's tag and support system and UNIELS tug of war offense buff are key underlining mechanics that make them drastically different from the other mainstream fighters.

Fighting games require a certain type of person that possess a self-defeatist kimd of attitude in order to stick around and get better. Its one thing to learn combos or fundamentals, but one of the reason the genre is still niche by today's standards is that you can't blame anyone else if you fuck up. In team games, people who are better than you can carry the team, and anyone can pin the blame on someone else when they lose. This is never the case for fighting games and apart from the excuses like "You have to learn 100000 combos to get good!" Or "Its just shitty rock paper scissors!" Which is exaggerated and simplified respectively, your fuck ups or victories are yours alone, and I understand that there are alot of people who cant handle that.

It doesn't help that even with most players their stance on oki is "you know what it is or you don't" and everyone in the latter group can fuck off and die as far as they're concerned.

Don't remind me about uniel. I'm sad it didn't get very popular. Such a fun and great game

>mfw abusing the fuck outta Devil Jin's laser at parties
Get rekt casuals

But for a newbie just jumping into a game "git gud" is hard. This isn't dark souls or Monster Hunter where getting good is largely learning an enemies moveset. If I'm playing against a character with tricky unblockable set ups or a very strong mix up game as a new player I'm going to have a very hard time naturally learning to defend against that. Especially if it has several super, jump, dash, ect... cancel options. I want to reiterate that I want approach this discussion as if I was a noob. The shear amount of situations to adjust is just too much for someone to realistically learn without someone telling or pouring through supplemental material.

You must've been a popular guy.

I think they can be hard to get into because they require years of practice and getting destroyed by people before you can even really become a competent player, which is understandably offputting for a majority of gamers. It takes a certain kind of determination and perseverance.

I feel you. Carmine and his blood bending are one of my fighting character mechanics. It came out at a bad time though. Being an anime fighter between the last BB and right as the newest GG game out was suicide.

i dont find any appeal in playing against strangers but dont have any friends to play them with regularly

>1. Still Playing The Same Shit From 1992
This is just wrong. Marvel is not like any of the 4 you mentioned. There's also KI, MKX, SC etc etc that are pretty different. If you think it's "the same shit from '92" and the genre boils down to SF, GG, Tekken and VF then I don't think you play many fighting games.

>2. No Co-Op.
Playing 1v1 = duo queue. Sure I wouldn't mind a co-op singleplayer component like MK9's tag team in more games but an online team-based traditional fighter wouldn't really work.

>3. Low level balance is non-existant
You can say the same for others games, take OW for example. Defense characters like Mei and Bastion are hated at low level yet are considered low tier. Blanka and Gief suck in most versions too. We shouldn't have to dumb these games down to appeal to casuals.

Playing and having fun and getting better with friends is probably a more common and enjoyable route to liking fighting games.

i have a lot of respect for fightan and watch evo every year

but they're usually just too much to get into. even if you commit months to learning every combo on a character, you'll get shit stomped until you've put even more months into researching how to counter all the other characters.

i play them with friends while drinking exclusively

Or, you know, laying with friends.

The average fighting game player never completed a Kill Bill style 8 year long training living on noodles and quarters.

It's more like cycling rather than martial sports or calculus.
FGs are the same to RTS games in this regard but thanks to their arcade history, they have an inherent advantage of said buddy games being more acceptable while RTS games try their darnest to discourage you from using LAN or playing with friends nowadays because... I don't know, the devs are simply clueless, I guess.

Well that's why you need to be able to handle defeat well. My music teacher had a saying taped in front of his office, "There will always be someone better than you, and when you meet them you'll wish you had practiced more" they always pushed us to practice.

The road to success intersects with failure often in fighting games. You just gotta have the right mindset going into it.

Why does ASW send its games out to die like that? It's getting pretty frustrating. So much hard work put into the game all gone to waste because the PR department fails to sell the game. It's tragic.

>genera

It's genre.

Like other people said, you learn counters by losing. You don't need to go into a frame data page most of the time. Eventually you'll learn to block BnB combos through playing. But like people also said that is just not fun for most people. On the flipside, it is great to go into a matchup and see that the other person doesn't know it so you can through out your most unsafe, unoptimal combos.

Winning is fun too

The balance was completely fucked, but apparently they did a better job in the new version according to the japanese playerbase. Jewpuncher is S tier and so is Edgelord. I really wanted to get into the game but the meta devolving into "pick Gord/Wald/Merk or Hilda (If you want to counter Gord)" really fucking chewed ass.

I feel you. I started playing Wald when I started cause I typically play grapplers and having a true high tier grappler felt great for once. Than I played a few games as Gourdou and wonder'd why anyone would play any other character.

You can't sell low budget weebshit to casuals no matter how fun it is.

Don't forget all the absurdly long range moves.
People already hate fucking hadoukens so having everyone being Dhalsim but fast isn't going to do much for people.

Now, how I would make a fighting game:

>Controls
Four attack buttons (lk, rk, lp, rp)
Jump button
Special button

>Mechanics
Everyone has auto-block. New players hate guarding, and I personally think high/low mixups are dumbshit. as long as you aren't attacking, jumping, or moving, you block everything.

Crouching avoids fireballs.

Grab system works like Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown (Defender has to guess which throw is being used, out of 3 options, in order to tech, but doesn't have to react to it)

No sweeps, or Oki in general. All knockdowns put both players at +0. You don't really need this shit anyways with how the game is built.

>Jabs: 3 frame. You can hit confirm into some special moves off of them.
>Launchers: 5-8 frames. Launchers are mostly unsafe, with a few that are - on block. Think 3D fighter or MK launchers, not Marvel.
>Guard Break Moves: 6-10 frames. These are slower moves which are mostly unsafe, and lose to faster moves, but break guards. Some of them are too fast to react to, to add incentive to stay on offense and use moves that beat these out.
>Advantage moves: 6 frames. These moves are +3 on block, and the advantage stacks 3 times. If they block two in a row (IE: No jab or reversal), your third is guaranteed, and then you land a free Guard Break move. If you try and use it 4 times in a row, it won't work.
>Pokes: 4-5 frames. These are moves with good range, but rarely can combo.
>Armor moves: 10 frames. These babies have one point of armor. They're incredibly unsafe, and within human reaction time however, making them launcher bait.

Jumps can be used to cancel some special moves. Hold directions while pressing jump to get different jumps (Regular is up or neutral, short hop is down, long jump functions like an instant airdash and is done with forward and jump)

The game would also include a co-op mode that plays like a side scrolling beat em up, and gives you cosmetics and shit.

These days, the problem is you can't just pick it up and figure out what works for you on your own.

Starting with GGX, fighting games have been designed so all characters are designed to be played in highly specific ways with particular toolsets to support that play, and little variation.

Before that, the design was much looser and harder to balance, but it was easier to pick someone up and play them the way you wanted, rather then the way the devs felt they were intended to be played(there have always been some narrowings of course like grapplers. Zangief was probably the first character who started receiving designs to "enforce this character played this way" with early changes to spinnyfists and the introduction of glowyhand.)

The inevitable consequence of this is to play characters "as intended", new people have to work out a lot of the fundamentals of the game before they can even start. Simply "picking it up and having fun" has become much more difficult; difficulty exacerbated by how unfriendly match opponents you don't know can be in the online age(in an arcade you could get punched in the face for being a dick. Over the internet it's trash talk ahoy.)

Didn't gordy get knocked down a bit in st? From what I heard in a couple streams he's still good but not as much as in exe: late

But instead of only having one character with long moves everyone aside from akatsuki has long ranged moves. So anyone can deal with it. Also auto combo helps ease people into the game.

Anyone got hilda or sion images?

Wald is absolutely fucking busted too, but Gord is
the big unbalanced cherry on top. You can just
do whatever the fuck you want and always have
it lead into at least 3K damage and the most
braindead oki. You don't need to put in any effort
whatsoever with any of those three characters
and it fucking hurts.

There is so much wrong with this jesus christ what the fuck.

>But instead of only having one character with long moves everyone aside from akatsuki has long ranged moves
From what I gather casuals hate long range moves of any type unless they're the ones using it.

Auto combo doesn't help ease people into the game unless they're going to give it a fair shake and casuals don't.

Are you retarded? Did you look at those number values? You just created a far shittier SFV.

Gordy got nerfed in st along with the rest of the
retard brigade. Jewpuncher and Edgelord are the new hotness, according to the japs. I really wanted to play jewpuncher but was turned off from him after I discovered how bad he is.

Other genres did evolved way more than fighting games did. Just look at the scope of modern day adventures, rpg and fps compared to something like SFV.

It's always about two players fighting each other in a limited space and, in the worst cases, in outdated 2D planes, when today technology allows to created potentially infinite wolrds.

fighting games are virtually the same as they were back in the early 90's, is the genre that progressed the least because fg are conservative by nature. The genre didn't decline, sales are comparable to what they were 20 years ago (just look at MKX), but it seems so because other genres have surpassed it and became just too big.

Nigga I play every fighting game.
Marvel is SF+GG, with an assist system tacked on. MK is shitty Street Fighter with a block button. KI is Street Fighter with a wierd combo system (Especially the new KI, and even moreso after Season 1). SC is literally Virtua Fighter with Swords.

>1v1 is duo queue
Check this out: Girlfriends want to play Co-Op with their boyfriends. This shit is why LOL and Overwatch are so fucking popular: Normalfags can play on the same team as their shitty friends. 1v1 can never do that, and it'd be hard to find a way to do this in Fighting Games.

I'm not saying dumb down the game. What I am saying is that if a move isn't very good at a high level (Blanka Ball), why not give new players easy ways to deal with it? Balrog can punish Blanka Ball with dash punch all the damn time, but Sakura cannot punish it. Just make the move higher risk, and buff shit that actually matters at a competitive level. I'm not saying get rid of shit that's hard to deal with for good and bad players (IE: Divekick pressure, Strong Zoning, Grab setups). In fact, I want more of that stuff. More than anything, I'd love it if somebody released a game with no easy way to get in on zoners.

Where do you take these polls?

If you tell them what to use and how to use it, they'll do it occasionally while trying to wrap their mind around everything.

And casuals love auto combo because it's easy to mash one button. Whenever I go to cons I'm sure to ask if they know how to play and point them in the right direction. Every time I tell them how to do auto combo, they always use it.

>MK is shitty SF with a block button
You never played it.
It's shitty Tekken with jump ins, get it right

>Soul Calibur is VF with swords
Full retard.

>Polls
Just my experience back when arcades were still around and how people tend to react online with hate mail.

>Every time I tell them how to do auto combo, they always use it.
This doesn't mean they'll like the game, it just means it's easy to hop into it and push buttons until someone comes in pushing buttons better than them.

That's true. There were a lot of attempts to try other things with it(psychic force, bushido blade, tobal, ehrgeiz, planeswitching in fatal fury, etc), but none of them were especially well received. Even 3-d is basically 2-d with rolling in most cases.

Think the only variation of formula that really stuck were all the DBZ games. Sometimes people enjoy those boxing/MMA type games, but only for a little bit before their normie friends get bored with them.

more like a winning attitude / determination like rock lee to train hard

>self-defeatist
that's me, i gave up pretty much in 1992 when i played street fighter 2 in the arcades. i played some of the x-men/marvel series too but my friends would be so much better.

i got into fps instead. there's a lot of carryover in that genre, i feel going from fighting game to fighting requires a lot more learning

Well yeah, having an easy entry barrier is nice to have for new players. Maybe they like the art style or the characters. Auto combo at least gets the ball rolling. Maybe they'll buy the console version.

Let me guess, you're bronze league in SFV.

Because the common sentiment you get from people that are already good at fighting games is
>Just go in to training and practice LMAO

That's not fun.
Doing that for four-hundred hours just so I can still get my ass beat like a little bitch retard isn't fun. It's not fun for casuals, and it's not fun for you because it's basically just you hitting a sandbag.

In other game genres you don't need to spend a billion gorillion hours just to play at an INCREDIBLY MEDIOCRE level that's just above a fucking normal AI.

Fighting games are fun when you get in to them and get decent. But the hardest part is getting decent. Because up until you get to that point you're going to either get incredibly fucking bored, incredibly fucking irritated, or just stop playing because
>Oh look I fucked everything up, again, because I'm fucking shit and a fuckin' retard, and lost to this guy who just basically punched my shit in because he's been playing Street Fighter since he was fucking 8 in SoCal.

It's not fun, and the controls are stupid sometimes. And all the easy characters are either shit or lame shit.

And online sucks dick.

>And casuals love auto combo because it's easy to mash one button.
Casuals don't "love" auto-combo, you fucking retard.
Casuals don't give a shit and use auto-combo because it lets them do what they were going to do anyway: mash jab. They still find it incredibly fucking boring after an hour.

It's hard to expand on something that just works so well.

Doesn't help that people want more of what already works rather than something new that might not be completely polished.

>Ehrgeiz is janky as fuck and imbalanced
>Tobal 1's actual fighting is clunky(Don't know about 2)
>Psychic Force is just something nobody knows and the sequel fucked it
>Planeswitching in FF doesn't actually add to anything and instead it allows a big combo extender with knocking people into the other plane then back to the front line in combos
>Bushido Blade is completely shallow by design due to its concept and most moves are useless to boot
>Destrega is okay but too simple

And now people want FGC approval so they can have longer lasting success instead of a one hit wonder

By self-defeatist I meant the kind that would ultimately be fine by pinning the reasons why they lost to themselves. Lots of people get salty and go on tantrums when they lose, which is normal even for people who play the genre extensively, but at the end of the day, as you said, the people who succeed in fighters are the ones who never give up, and are ok with accepting the loss, because really in fighting games, when you don't recognize a setup or matchup strategy, the loss falls on you.

Guilty Gear Xrd and Revelator have insanely good tutorials. Even as far to tell you what habits players tend to go for and how to avoid them which is fucking crazy.

I agree with OP, the best way to learn how to play these games is with a friend and figure out the game together. Simply put its a lot more fun that way. I was lucky i had a group of people around me that played Guilty Gear AC+ and Touhou 12.3 and during the entirety of it there where salt storms, money matches, good laughs, great moments and one broken xbox 360 controller because FUCK the Spencer/Dante/Phoenix team in marvel.

Then I tried jumping into a few games and becoming a online warrior but the fun just isn't there man, its just lag, people who don't want to play against someone who is trying to learn the game and salty disconnecting fucks.

So what you're saying is that they love it and instead of mashing jab, they can actually get damage. And how do you know every casual finds auto combo boring?

Because the only fighting game that gets sales from casuals is Mortal Kombat.

They like mashing chains, not just auto combo.

Tutorials don't matter. If you want to learn casuals how to play and have them stick around, make a compelling story mode that teaches the basics while they feel like they get something fun out of it.

Or make your game popular enough that there is always a large pool of scrubs to play with against online.

If tutorials really were the most important aspect, then the games with the best tutorials wouldn't have been more niche than games with almost non-existant tutorials.

Make the learning process fun. That's it. Tutorials that just throw endless combos and mechanics at you aren't fun. For us maybe but not to casuals. This is why SFV was such a blunder. It basically gave nothing to its massive casual audience hoping they would instead all learn the game for online play instead.

No, I'm saying that even if auto-combo wasn't there that nigga's just gonna hit jab. Except now instead of Sol flailing his fist he's Sol jabbing, hooking, uppercutting and then punching you with fire.
It doesn't change what the casual's going to do. It's still boring to him, because he realizes he's literally just mashing jab to do the same thing over and over again, while he can see you and everyone else do varied and different shit by not mashing jab.
But the instant he tries that he'll hit once, you'll block the rest because "Those moves don't chain :^)" and beat his ass to the stone age, so he'll go back to mashing jab.

THEN, if the casual decides "Haha I like this game. I want to try and get better!" he'll fucking HATE auto-combo because
>I'm trying to learn how to actually play the game but I accidentally did the auto-combo and it ruined everything and I got my ass beat because I did the auto-combo by accident. This game is gay, I wish it didn't have auto-combo.

Nobody actually likes auto-combo.

>Or make your game popular enough
This isn't really something a publisher can control, unless you're Blizzard or Rockstar and have billions to spend on marketing.

They can to a certain extent. Market it. Sell it for less than the AAA $60 price. Do free versions that run parallel to it. If SFV was $40 at launch, it would've fared so much better and probably made more money for Capcom in the long run.

Again, how do you know it's boring to them? Damage is damage, I don't think they'd care for style or how it gets done, as long as it gets them the win. After playing a bit they'd have to actually practice on their own to get wins without auto combo.

Also, who accidentally gets auto combo instead of what they want. It's usually mapped to jab or an entirely different mode.

Fighting games have a reputation that discourages a lot of people from trying it. Not just normies, I have gamer friends who have played games for years and none of them play fighters.

Everyone thinks of fighting games as something you can ONLY get into if you've been practicing since you were 7 years old, playing SF2 on arcades and on the SNES. Honing your craft for over 20 years. Every fighting game player is a master, and they will all do a 100 hit combo on you before you can even land a single punch.

Plus, until only recently it was rare for fighting games to even bother explaining how to play or what all their systems are. Seriously, I've played fighting games for about 5 years now. I tried out Melty Blood when it came out on Steam and I have no idea what the fuck all of these systems are. I had to use a fucking wiki, there is literally no instructions or tutorial in game that explains what the different moon phases do exactly, what a blood drive is and things like that. Also, a lot of fighting games assume you've played other fighting games. It's weird. So many games have almost braindead tutorials for even the most basic controls like how to move but fighting games assume you already know all the inputs and terms before giving you a command list. It's even more weird when there's no key for the command list.

Like, there's that one joke right? A guy sees a super that's a quarter circle forward and two punches, so he does a quarter circle forward and then punches twice instead of pressing two punch buttons together at the same time.

Speaking of which, the FGC has used a lot of ingrain terms that lots of fighting game players don't question but it's like learning another language for newer players. Like, they're not going to understand what 632146A means.It looks like gibberish until you've been taught it.

see If autocombo was fun even KI would have been more popular.

I guess it's like how if you don't play FPS games a lot and you play a match only to be instantly sniped by someone you can't even see because they're on the other side of the map with a sniper rifle. You bitch and complain that the entire genre is bullshit and is filled with cheap gimmicks that only appeal to children and autists who are willing to not move for the entire game just to get one kill.

Truth is, the guy that sniped you has probably got an understanding of map knowledge and knew what he was doing. If you had more experience, you could of learnt that since there was a high likelihood of being sniped you should be more cautious in that area.

Some games just take a while to learn. Unfortunately, no one wants to be a teacher. We're expected to learn all this shit ourselves and asking for help is looked down on.

Rising Thunder proved shitters will always be shitters.

I fucking love the game for that. Truly a testament that simplifying commands won't make anyone suddenly better in fighters except ones who are already good.
youtube.com/watch?v=w0WetHkYVtw

Fighting games take a lot more to learn than a FPS because a FPS is aiming + map knowledge + positioning

Easy as shit compared to knowing frame data, having reactions, knowing hitboxes and having timing.

The real problem is people don't care to learn things if it takes too long or takes too much effort

I think it's more like, most people will look at all that effort and decide "it's not worth it". Like, I COULD learn Japanese for five years and just fucking drown myself in weeb shit. But I won't, because it's not worth the time and effort. It ain't like there are a lot of fighting games and you're not really missing out on not playing them. So it's fine just skipping the entire genre. Why put in all the time and effort getting good at them?

But it is popular

You know, I think all we need to do is just get people to seriously try out a fighting game once.

Like, I used to rent games from the local video game and play them with my brother as a kid and god knows we didn't fucking understand fighting games at all. Completely lost interest in the genre for years. Some time in highschool I tried playing Hisotensoku, a Touhou fighting game because I like Touhou, and I actually really ended up liking it. That was my gateway to fighting games and I've been playing ever since. But that was the thing, I never really gave fighting games a shot until Hisotensoku, and even then I was only trying it out because of my frilly hat lolis.

I think games like Dengeki Bunko Fighting Climax have the right idea. It's a fighting game that's a cross over of various light novel characters, and it's pretty easy to play for a fighting game. Everyone uses the same or very similar commands that do similar things, and the hardest input is a backwards 180. Perfect for getting people into fighting games. They pick it up because their waifu is the basketball loli in spats and they end up getting into fighting games because it's fun playing as the basketball loli in spats.

At the present that's true, but fighting games in general at the time couldn't be considered "polished" by today's standards. That didn't happen until around PS2/Xbox generation. One gimmick could've taken as well as any other.

People just plain didn't like any of them compared to the traditional format.

When I said polished it's more like lots of games had rather huge glaring surface faults that people who had an idea of what they were doing could see.

Granted that's not a lot of people compared to now but something like Battle Arena Toshinden felt jank even back then and sold on the fact that it was 3D instead.

Like other people said, you need friends at your level. For a long time, I also thought you needed a fightstick even to start playing.

Fighting games do poorly because they don't actually play as they are advertised.

Pretty much all "fighting" games are SF clones. Which means they all are between 2 characters, have bordered stages and take place on a 2D plane. This does not resemble what many fights are like in actuality.

The hypothetical ignorant player, seeing a game advertised as a "fighting" game might assume something like an FPS, involving fisticuffs and melee weapons instead of guns. He might expect to have to engage multiple opponents by himself, that fights could be over in a single decisive blow, that he would have to learn and be aware of ambush points in a large map.

Fighting games rarely contain any of these things.

This is because fighting games are not about fighting anymore than chess is about warfare. They exist as their own genre ill defined. It would be similar to their being say three RTS games that came out 2 decades ago and one of them was a MOBA that became so popular that "RTS" games are really just MOBA's. Keep in mind, this analogy has another facet in that Mobile Online Battle Arena is an incredibly vague term that does not correctly describe the mechanics of the games in its genre, much like "fighting" games.

The only fighting games I ever really enjoyed were the Bushido Blade and Soul Calibur games. They were significantly different than street fighter and I had freinds as well that enjoyed Soul Calibur 2 and 3. Bushido Blade is long since dead and Soul Calibur is not doing well either, and the funny thing is at the end of these series' lifelines they STARTED BECOMING STREET FIGHTER. The last Bushido Blade that came out had health and special bars. Soul Calibur added these in as well, eliminating the Soul Charge mechanic that had been a hallmark in the process. Making these changes didn't add more player, indeed, they pushed away fans.

Street Fighter is the WoW of its genre, but worse because it DEFINES the genre.

Toshinden was relatively popular at the time. Enough to spawn sequels, get Sega to beg for two Saturn ports, and get put on PC.

Not sure how much of that was genuine like, and how much was Sony promoting it as hard as they did though. It's fucked up thinking that was once a killer app tier title.

So you want to change the definition of fighting games to allow games like Smash Bros. in it, is what you're saying? Power Stone? That Shrek game?

That's because there already is a seperate genre for what you're describing, and it's called brawlers/beat em ups.

>boot up PC
>Street Fighter V is updating
>hit pause

The high barrier of entry keeps out a lot of trash i dont see the problem

My problem is I have shit internet connection so I can't play online.

I feel you, bro
And also there's no scene nearby so I can just play with a bunch of friends "for fun"

>and it'd be hard to find a way to do this in Fighting Games

>"There will always be someone better than you, and when you meet them you'll wish you had practiced more" they always pushed us to practice.

This heavily assumes you're motivated to push through everything in the first place. Which is a serious problem with the mentality of the FGC. People who aren't having fun with something have no reason to continue playing unless they believe they have something to gain, so they'll just stop. You're concept of 'success' is way, way beyond anything they'd care to dream of, they don't enjoy the game, they don't understand it and so why should they bother when they could be doing anything else?

I have fun winning or losing because I know what I am doing.

I am never happier when playing games than when I am excitedly shouting,
>Oh man, I feel for the crossup!
>Aw man, I didn't block low!
>Holy shit, I knew the grab was coming!
It's just so fun to play fighting games, because I have control over what happens and everything has rules. Whenever I play other shit games popular games like Overwatch, I always get frustrated because I have no control over what I am doing, everything is in a massive 3D playspace, and you have tons of teammates that can fuck everything up. Whenever I lose in Overwatch, Rust or CSGO I just shout,
>I'm gonna go play a REAL game that has RULES.

and I go play SFV.

You mean like Battle Toads?

Because beat'em up is the name for things like River City Ransom, Shadow Over Mystara and Streets of Rage.

Those games are all "fighting" games because they involve fighting. I'm saying people that only play street fighter clones should stop calling their games "fighting" games. A more correct term would be "Fighter" games, since movesets are tied directly to different characters (fighters). The "fighting" moniker would be completely abandoned because it doesn't mean anything. FPS games involve firefights, this makes them fighting games as well when obviously no one here wants the next SF to be an FPS.

You don't get more long term player by false advertising. You've got to tell people what you're selling if you want them to buy it. There are probably people out there that would greatly enjoy the mechanics of SF clones but think that a Fighting game is going to be low brow and simplistic because they see gory things like MK and Primal Rage. The intricacies of the mechanics don't come across in the presentation.

Meanwhile, Daigo's SF 3 parry showcases enough that even relatively uninformed spectators can get what is happening. They see him taking small damage on his blocks and that his blocks persist for a moment after being hit. Parries are obviously different in effect and animation and you see him taking no damage. Then, you see him expend his bar the way his opponent just did, but his opponent doesn't block or parry the attack and loses all of the significant remaining portion of their health bar. You realize just how necessary each of those perfect blocks was. Then, you want to do it yourself.

THAT gets people into Fighters.

>So you want to change the definition of fighting games to allow games like Smash Bros. in it, is what you're saying?

Why shouldn't they? What genre should they be otherwise? Don't say 'brawler' because you know damn well the implies they're somehow inherently less refined than 'real' fighting games.

It just enjoys its status as unapproachable, and plays around with it. Sort of the same way RTS loves itself too much with titles such as wargame, the fighting game genre is literally FILLED with artificial difficulty.
youtube.com/watch?v=NUZ_QOHkjGY

Fighting game players know god damned well what's wrong with the genre, but potentially losing matches to less skilled players completely turns them off. Most people people can perform hadoken within a few tries. Almost nobody (noobs) gets shoryuken consistantly, though, because imputing it is an entire fucking magnitude more complicated, and can go much more wrong, but THEN games start asking you to flawlessly chain these together in order to operate on a level where the game can even be considered even. There is no reason why the games should do this, other than fighting games need to be harder to play, artificially, in order to placate a type of player that values skill ceiling to floor ratio for the sake of popping noobs. This it's why people prefer garbage like MvC to equally heinous, but less flashy and input oriented Soul Cal. That perceivably higher skill level makes people feel like they're doing more, when really they're just jumping more hurdles to get to the same skill range they ALWAYS belonged in. Most people who call themselves "fighting game fans" are dumbasses with dunning kruger, victims of the ceiling fallacy, and do nothing but watch pros all day and attempt to compare the type of game they play, with the game Daigo gets to play. You are not Daigo. The frame counter is not a practical mechanic for you, and if you think it is, you likely are lying.

I believe that in a competitive game, a better player should win, and a significantly better player should win by a diminishingly significant margin. The average fighting gamer and his philosophy does not agree. Games between players that are even similarly matched turn into landslides, and I blame artificial difficulty.

>Posting a video of something that is useless on a character who is consistently low tier
>Talking about how bad players are skilled and deserve free wins because they can't do inputs
Good players will win regardless of the game unless the game literally steals it from them.

Just let your thread die, there's not enough bait to keep it up and interesting

This is ultimately why and how Smash shines. While there is a high end barrier, with techniques for higher level play, at least the fucking movelist is given to the player up front, and in a way that he can actually fucking access it when he wants to (arguable for air moves). New players don't feel like they're being disadvantaged unfairly.

I think the core issue is the mechanics and tutorials needed aren't nearly as apparent as they should be. There's so many situations and combos you need to account for you only really is to have someone to play with to spur you both to grow, even if it's limited to whatever characters you two pick.

I'd really like some more tutorial game modes, like a wario-ware bite sized combo situations for characters that randomly throw situations you need to account for in varying difficulties. Another thing I'd like is a tempo style rhythm game that indirectly teaches motions and attacks for certain characters set to music.

That's my two cents as a casual fighter fan. I'll play the games anyway, but man the homework required to be legit could use some tricks to keep you interested.

But the saying is true for all competitive games. If they want to win, they gotta put in the time. Even then, it's all moot if they can't take a loss. No matter what skill level you are, if you can't take a loss you're going nowhere.

And success is abstract, it could be short term like winning a match or something longer like being top in locals.

Nigga, I don't even play soul calibur 5. I last played that in 09, it's just an example of something in there that artificially separates good from bad.
>Good players will win regardless of the game unless the game literally steals it from them.
Exactly. So why do some moves have to be hard enough so that only the better players can use them? The answer is they don't, and they are only designed this way to placate shitty people who get off to "pwning newbs". If that's what gets you off, fine, but you're the specific type of person I was talking about.

I hope whatever they're working on with Riot is in a similar vein.

>DP is impossible
Just use crouch + strong punch. I swear, Goddamn scrubs.

> So why do some moves have to be hard enough so that only the better players can use them?
There is literally nothing where this is the case.
If you can't do special moves then that's on you.

It's also a balancing issue.
>Zangief has 360 input for throw
>This means he can't just do it nearly as often as a hadouken
>This means he can't do it just when standing still
>Turn it into QCF
>Suddenly he can use it a lot more

A game tried to make special moves easier.
It's called Rising Thunder.

It never caught on and casuals left the game because it effectively called them out on their bullshit when they talk about how games should be about outsmarting their opponent and not having complex inputs.

Then the game comes along, they get their shit kicked in and leave without saying a word.
Fuck along now.

>But the saying is true for all competitive games.

It's not, at all. Most competitive games are way more fun at lower levels.

>If they want to win, they gotta put in the time.
But that's not the issue, it's that they have no idea what they ought to be doing in a given situation or how to go about becoming good enough to understand this. In the meanwhile, they flail about and throw out attacks without much real sense of why they should care.

Keep in mind that they have no reason to believe they'd be having any more fun if they just put more work in, nor do they have any eye set on victory until they have any reason at all to play it over anything else they understand better.