What's so good about this game?

Best Link came out of it

Well user, you may have just discovered a concept we generally call "opinions". It's something most people figure out as a small child, but hey, good for you.

>timeless art style
that's the only part that's true and why it's so popular, it's an entirely superficial appeal

the game itself was the weakest 3d Zelda before SS was released

>Most of this post is untrue.
Got a counter-argument?

yup. it's the only Zelda that feels like going on an adventure, just sailing around finding new islands and seeing what's on them. Other Zelda games don't do much to make me want to deviate from the mainline quest, or else they encourage exploration with a "gotta find all the things" mentality. In WW, I'm exploring simply because I'm curious what's on that island in the distance.

I enjoyed the dungeons, but let's not pretend it wasn't weird to not have one for the third pearl. Wind Dungeon could have differentiated itself a bit more from the Forest Temple, I suppose. None of the dungeons felt gimmicky, which I personally appreciated but I can see how they could also feel "samey" to someone.

also the combat, while simplistic, feels rewarding and fluid (the escalating hits help) and I always get a kick out of picking up some fool's weapon to use against him. Never once does combat feel like a chore, I'm always happy to wade into battle.

art and music are great, it's not even up for debate. But since this is Cred Forums, I'll go the extra step and claim WW has the best OST out of an Zelda game.

Its just so charming you don't really see many flaws, still wish they'd added the missing dungeons for the hd remake

how come nobody ever asked for "missing" dungeons added to Majora's Mask? That's got even less than WW, but people are fine with it.

You do realize the decision to "cut" dungeons was made so early on in the process there's none of them left in the final build, right? They aren't even half-finished, or even started. They probably only got as far as sketches on a whiteboard, if that.

No but I have hot opinions coming through.

The sense of exploration is hampered by the game's structure and design. First off you know you're exploring a grid of 49 squares which makes the structure of the overworld itself feel very routine. Then because of the Triforce Hunt, the majority of islands with significant content on them are both mandatory to complete the game (in a part that really feels like going down a checklist) and also blocked off until the end of the game by being gated with a hookshot. The game does Zelda item-gating but it does it in a way that discourages exploration. Unlike every other Zelda game, you're not likely to pass through an area on your way to something else without the item key. This is because the world is large, the method of travel is kind of a pain, and because everything is so featureless that you really have to step onto an island in order to see what puzzle elements are there. What this means if you try to explore things early (like in any other Zelda game), you're punished with long travel times and coming away empty-handed because you're probably just going to run into an item gate you can't open. What this did for me anyway was make me rush through the main quest so I could get all the items to actually interact with things, meaning I didn't just take my time and explore a world like with other games, because I didn't want to waste time traveling. This is all during the "forced exploration" Triforce Hunt part of the game, which further kills the feeling that you're doing something on your own. Because that's what the game is intending you to do.

And then I don't like the dungeons, I think they're too easy and too similar in terms of structure, I don't think the combat is good because there's a handful of enemy types and it's way too easy, but I don't have enough characters left in this post to elaborate.

MM wasn't about the dungeons tho

then neither is WW.

Because Majora's Mask was a game made on a much tighter game and whole thing is built around the number 4.

Wind Waker is very conspicuously missing a dungeon when the game just hands you the final pearl, in a deviation from the formula it otherwise rigidly adheres to.

>First off you know you're exploring a grid of 49 squares which makes the structure of the overworld itself feel very routine.

Wait, stop, how is it routine?

Exploration. It was nice sailing around and finding a great fairy, or seeing a really interesting looking new island.
Unfortunately, the first portion is pretty boring, as is the Triforce hunt towards the end.
Still easily my favorite 3D Zelda, but that's a low bar.

It had a good sense of exploration. I'd say it was the last console Zelda that gave you that sense without forcing you to do so. That said, the HD remake needed to add more to it, and with the Swift Sail, the Gamecube version is actually more of a slog. But the Gamecube version has the better look.

perfect art direction that even in a million years still won't have aged

This. All of this.

WW wasn't about dungeons either

desu just because you see 49 empty squares doesn't mean theres just 49 islands
there could've been more or less, and there was also rare things like the submarines, sea pirate towers, etc

Because it feels like the game handed me a checklist especially when I had to go through every single island feeding bait to a fish in order to get a check. There's nothing significant in between islands in this game. Even the ocean content like platforms/submarines/giant squids are basically next to the islands and cleanly marked on a grid. Instead of exploring an actual place, you literally go square-by-square.

so would you rather the game didn't allow you to add islands to your map?

I don't know how you managed to play the game completely wrong, but you did.

There's stuff to get after every dungeon gives you a new item, you just remember what you've been to and go back to get it.

>Unlike every other Zelda game, you're not likely to pass through an area on your way to something else without the item key
yeah, this is what makes WW the best for exploration. you're not just handed little side-routes as you go along, you're expected to be curious and to explore on your own.

>I don't want to waste time
then you clearly don't want to explore, you just want to "get all da items" and complete your checklist. stop that. that's not how you have fun.

As for the combat, how is it any worse than other Zelda games (except TP, which I'll admit was probably the peak)?

+graphics
+best gameplay in the series so far (controls are really smooth and precise)
+story
+exploration actually has a meaning, besides a bunch of useless rupees scattered around

-unfinished
-terrible pacing near the end
-soundtrack is hit or miss, there aren't as many memorable songs as previous entries
-not enough temples, too many micro dungeons

I will say that WW was the most fun to cut grass in compared to any other Zelda game.

>Instead of exploring an actual place, you literally go square-by-square.

But you are exploring an actual place. It is depicted on the map by squares, sure, but there is no instancing while you are playing. You are simply sailing on an ocean and can go exploring based on what you see on the horizon. The moment you apply a method to explore everything, of course repeating your method becomes routine, but since every area of the sea, even if you go by the squares, is fairly unique, I don't see how exploring a bunch of different islands and waters with their own unique puzzles can be considered routine.

Basically nothing except for MUH POETIC GRAPHICS.

this

Hurricane spin grass mowing was cool.

But this is the only console Zelda that literally forces you to "explore" with its Triforce Artifact Sky Temple Key Hunt.

I would rather the game have laid out islands in a way that wasn't incredibly boring. I think I would've been okay with longer stretches of ocean or islands for some actual variety, so that the world felt like a world. And not a grid where some designer put a little smidgen of content in each box.

Your post is contradictory, you don't remember where you've been because you probably haven't been there because as you said, the game didn't "hand [you] little side-routes." Then if you have been there, it's a huge waste of time because you had to slowly get there unless it was on a straight line to your next destination, get onto the island, realize you had nothing to do, and then get back in the boat. Why even bother when most of the content is gated with the hookshot anyway?

And no, I want to explore but that exploration needs to be fruitful and interesting. There is nothing interesting about finding a switch I don't have a hammer to press down or a palm tree I can't access.

The ultimate example of how Wind Waker screws this up is the Shark Island. That island is the biggest middle finger to early at-your-own-pace exploration I've ever seen in any game ever. It requires four items you get throughout the entire game to hit four switches. None of the switches do anything until you can get all of them. So if you approach it the way I usually approach Zelda, going back to any interactable element as soon as I can to find secrets, you'd end up going back to this stupid island in the middle of the map three times without getting anything, and then the fourth time to get a silver rupee for your already full wallet because fuck you.

did anyone here actually take a picture of EVERYTHING with the camera and fill up that figurine room?

This is exactly how navigating by a map should be like. You are supposed to use a XY coordinates system in real life, like A3, H16 and things like that, or numerical coordinates, like 160,70 etc

The game got that part right.

Because they're not really unique. They're tiny islands with an item gate on it, and the game repeats its grotto layouts three times each. It's got about as much asset reuse as Mass Effect 1. Let's not even talk about the die reefs.

The problem is expectation and pacing. The game sets up this very rigid expectation for what you're going to get in each grid, and doles out its content at extremely regular intervals while "exploring." It loses variety and surprise in doing so. Exploration should feel like stubmling across something novel that other people might have missed, and that's not a feeling that is cultivated when the content in the game is so clearly marked out.

Yes but only in the HD version. God that was shitty. Probably the second worst sidequest in any Zelda game ever.

other than the tingles that needed a GBA and link cable, I did. requires NG+ though

the manager just fucks off and leaves you a note. what a rip.

>But this is the only console Zelda that literally forces you to "explore" with its Triforce Artifact Sky Temple Key Hunt.
And I didn't mind it in the Gamecube game. I like when I can do that, when I can actually explore areas and have an incentive to do so. When games don't let you explore and hold your hand throughout (Skyward Sword), that's a slog and not fun at all. You were expecting the Triforce to be handed to you like that?

>using that pear to control the seagull to hit the switch while being chased by those huge birds

fun

The same thing that's good about any other Zelda that's been released since OoT: Nothing.

You're misconstruing my problem with the Triforce Hunt, intentionally or not. The choice isn't between a game that doesn't let you explore and a game that forces you to explore, it's the choice between a game that lets you explore and the game that forces you to explore.

I like exploration when it's optional because it feels like I'm discovering things on my own. That's the only way I see it as exploration. If the game makes a scavenger hunt like that mandatory, then it no longer feels like exploration because it feels like something I'm expected or obligated to do. I'm not finding anything on my own, the game is telling me to go find something.

It's the difference between all of the significant missable content in something like LttP compared to WW, or the difference in structure between Super Metroid and Prime 2.

...

Most engrossing setting a Zelda game has ever produced.
Overwhelming sense of freedom in a large world with minimal load times (Big deal for a disc based game in 2002/3)

You don't have to explore most of the islands, or even land on them. Whatever islands are vital to the main plot are all you need. It's when you want to go to an optional island that the game lets you do so, and fairly early on, too.

That's the thing, you actually do end up having to explore most of the islands. I was charting this down when I played through on the HD version, most of the minor islands with significant content are part of the Triforce Hunt.

And I'd really argue the point about "fairly early on." The map doesn't open up until hours into the game, you have to beat Forest Haven before KoRL finally stops nagging you whenever you try to leave a particular L-shape.

>And I'd really argue the point about "fairly early on." The map doesn't open up until hours into the game, you have to beat Forest Haven before KoRL finally stops nagging you whenever you try to leave a particular L-shape.

Compared to other 3D Zeldas it's incredibly early

>Overwhelming sense of freedom in a large world with minimal load times (Big deal for a disc based game in 2002/3)
GTA 3 came out in 2001 man.

>solid dungeons
You're an idiot.

Are you somehow implying that GTA 3 wasn't a big deal?

I'd have to get some actual metrics but it certainly doesn't feel early to me. That's like a full third of the game. I'd say OoT and MM opened up much earlier.

MM doesn't open the full map to you until well over the halfway point. OoT is filled with gates and obstacles.

comfy

I guess I have a different opinion on what "opening up" means. I consider opening up to be when you can do significant content that isn't related to your main objective, not when you have access to the full map. Although maybe that breaks down a little because early on in Wind Waker, once you're finally let out of the L-shaped pen, you can't really do anything.

I agree with this post.

>I guess I have a different opinion on what "opening up" means.

I'm defining it as the ability to run from one end of the map to the other largely unimpeded

> you can't really do anything.
Submarines, Great Fairies, Giant Squids. Triforce charts...

Third post best post

Well then your definition for opening is stupidly skewed towards Wind Waker and there's no point in even having this discussion. Although even then, I'd argue OoT still opens up sooner because you basically have access to the entire world after the Hyrule Castle segment as child Link.

One great fairy can be accessed without bombs, the wallet one right next to Windfall. Then the rest need bombs and possibly arrows, so really, the game doesn't open up until you get the third pearl. So you're agreeing with me and Wind Waker takes even longer to open up.

comfy?

second favourite game of all time, I love it, I love everything about it, put it in my ass

>Although even then, I'd argue OoT still opens up sooner because you basically have access to the entire world after the Hyrule Castle segment as child Link.

You can't touch Gerudo Valley or Zora's Domain

>So you're agreeing with me and Wind Waker takes even longer to open up.

I'm only talking about the map as a whole. Not every single nook and cranny. Making every power up in the game immediately accessible would just make the game shallow

You absolutely can go to Gerudo Valley as child Link. You can grab a golden skulltula at the very least. And you can trivially get into Zora's Domain, they didn't gate it off very well, I did it as a kid. Plus there's actual content there you can interact with. If you mean the fortress and the desert beyond, I don't think that's valid, those are more like levels. It's not any less than the content Wind Waker gates you off from anyway.

As for the second part, I'm going on my definition of significant content. There is not significant content until you get the bombs and arguably the arrows. It's not every power-up, it's basically any power-up. I'd have to go and check to make sure, but I think you can get more optional upgrades before Majora's Mask's first dungeon than after Wind Waker's second.

Anyway there's no point to this discussion. We fundamentally disagree on what opening up means.

>You absolutely can go to Gerudo Valley as child Link. You can grab a golden skulltula at the very least.

I'm not counting physics abuse because then you have to count the bullshit you can do with speed swimming in Wind Waker

There's no physics abuse to get into Gerudo Valley. You can go up to the bridge and talk to a Gerudo, and there's a golden skulltula in that little area.

There's slight physics abuse to get into Zora's Domain early but it's so easy and doesn't break the game at all.

And I don't know about speed swimming exploits, but don't you need bombs to do it anyway?

Nothing, it's the worst 3d Zelda apart from SS.

Great art and music with charming characters.

Personally I find it one of the most disappointing games I ever played. It feels so fucking rushed with only five dungeons and the fucking tri force chart quest. As I finished it all I thought was "that's it?". By no means a bad game but I feel it could've been the best zelda by far and all we got was an overall mediocre attempt at zelda.

Great loli and shota