Solution to server cost problem

Thomas Cox
Thomas Cox

I have THE solution for Cred Forums's cost problem as mentioned here:
desuarchive.org/qa/thread/706294/
Cred Forums can't afford infrastructure costs, network fee, servers cost, CDN and etc, now.
Cred Forums have three options.
Halve the traffic cost
limit uploading image sizes

The solution:
Ban all image formats, and only allow webp and webm.

.webp files are a tiny fraction of the size of even a low quality jpeg

Just convert all images client side!

Cred Forums can also make a conversion tool for images to webp (like they did for webms to replace gif, as found here: gitgud.io/nixx/WebMConverter)

Make a sticky thread on all boards, with instructions and links to the webp converter.
Make sure the converter works on windows, linux and OSX so that no one is alienated. (later perhaps for android and ios too)

in summary:
the images get converted client side (eventually Cred Forums makes image to webp converter)
all boards get sticky thread with link to converter and instructions
all images (jpeg, png, gif) are banned
the only allowed formats are: webm + webp

This makes running Cred Forums EXTREMELY cheap.

pic source:
keycdn.com/blog/convert-to-webp-the-successor-of-jpeg/

see last thread for image examples: desuarchive.org/qa/thread/716054/

ps. gook moot is considering selling the site out to Shkreli, so fuck that shit!

All urls found in this thread:

desuarchive.org/qa/thread/706294/
keycdn.com/blog/convert-to-webp-the-successor-of-jpeg/
desuarchive.org/qa/thread/716054/
mega.nz/#!ZwNkHTII!KZzLQVfeuXn35Ejho8OErdqisI2J4OahibmQXOvccr8
credforums.com/thread/56896846/technology
credforums.com/thread/56900868/technology
romeolight.com/products/webpconv/
flif.info/
strawpoll.me/11360155
strawpoll.me/11360206
strawpoll.me/11360229
slideshare.net/touradj_ebrahimi/icip2016-image-compression-grand-challenge-66475960
libwebpjs.appspot.com/
caniuse.com/#search=webp
istlsfastyet.com/
phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=GIMP-WebP-Image-Support

Nathaniel Miller
Nathaniel Miller

oh look one of these shitposts again

Nathaniel King
Nathaniel King

or just simply shut down /soc/

Nolan Kelly
Nolan Kelly

the traffic will remain, they will just shit up some other boards

Christian Watson
Christian Watson

Hiro's lack of acknowledgement of this (also on /qa/) makes it look like he's making up the issue just to ditch Cred Forums (for Shkreli money)

Josiah Diaz
Josiah Diaz

make it work on windows, linux and osx
We could do that with LLVM + emscripten. I'll maybe look into this afternoon, seems like a good idea even if it wont have much attention

Carson Bell
Carson Bell

seems like a good idea even if it wont have much attention
yup, just like how Cred Forums made webms more relevant, I think we can do the same for webp, and smaller file sizes means faster browsing and less loading

Asher Barnes
Asher Barnes

make Cred Forums text only.

Ayden Mitchell
Ayden Mitchell

make imageboard text only
kill yourself you sperg

Brandon Hughes
Brandon Hughes

THERE IS NO SERVER COST PROBLEM, YOU STUPID MONGOLOID. GOOK WANTS MORE MONEY! GOOK IS GREEDY! GOOK WANT OBSTRUCTIVE ADS IN BETWEEN POSTS! EVERYTHING HE SAID IS AN EXCUSE TO MAKE MORE MONEY BY SHITTING Cred Forums WITH ADS.

Carter Cruz
Carter Cruz

I could help with this, is there an ffmpeg-like converter already in place and we just make a server-side script using it, or are we developing it from the ground up?

Also, if the conversion is made on te server, isn't that worse? Not only are the same images being sent, but you have the conversion overhead. A client-side implementation would be better.

Brandon Brooks
Brandon Brooks

imagemagick can create webp without any addititonal cost.

magick input.png output.webp

Brody Lewis
Brody Lewis

this.
all passes 25% off!
hiro: I have no money!

William Davis
William Davis

OP mentioned client-side twice

Eli Bell
Eli Bell

the solution is something like exhentais hath system

Dylan Johnson
Dylan Johnson

IOSFAGS BTFO
NO WEBM SUPPORT LOL

Jayden Martinez
Jayden Martinez

Tried the webp thing:
-source image: png, 6215286 bytes
-pngcrushed: 5049800 bytes
-webp: 74542 bytes

Joshua Lewis
Joshua Lewis

It was mentioned that these should be done clientside. We could compile something like suggested into javascript with emscripten / LLVM / clang and run it clientside.

Levi Perry
Levi Perry

Make everyone convert every single picture they find online.
Yeah, top notch idea, I'm sure /soc/fags posting from their phones would love that.
Also, iPhone users wouldn't be able to see them (>inb4 iPhones are shit anyway).

If anything, converting them server-side is a better idea

Why would it be worse?
You get the picture, convert it to webp and delete the original.
It should be possible to automatically convert it on client-side when they send it though, right?

Evan Lopez
Evan Lopez

I'm sure /soc/fags posting from their phones would love that.
So they can fuck off.
Also, iPhone users wouldn't be able to see them
Good

Isaiah Phillips
Isaiah Phillips

Ok, let's help Cred Forums save money
Oh I know it, let's get rid of 10% of the users

Christian Nguyen
Christian Nguyen

Oh yeah you're right, my bad.
I'm sorry I didn't realise Cred Forums was for reposting content found on the real internet.

Joseph Harris
Joseph Harris

Sounds like a plan.

Dominic Phillips
Dominic Phillips

Clientside is possible with emscripten as mentioned
Isn't there Chrome for iPhone? Anyways its still possible to develop an app for it

Chase Jones
Chase Jones

Making the website shit and inaccessible isn't the solution

Jordan Reed
Jordan Reed

yeah probably, but this method would save him money, meaning he'll have more money left (profit) without shitting up the website with his jewish gook malware

Jaxson Taylor
Jaxson Taylor

dubs confirm :^)

Jason Mitchell
Jason Mitchell

3.8MB jpeg
kys

James Davis
James Davis

Do you want me to make a comparison of the compressed versions of the comparison pic?

Brandon Brown
Brandon Brown

I have THE solution. Make all boards text only. Upload media somewhere else and post the link.

Gabriel Jones
Gabriel Jones

if you really want to do a comparrison. make a lossless PNG and post a link to the file, or upload all 3 files separately to mega, and post link to the folder.
posts huge lossy jpeg instead

Liam Rodriguez
Liam Rodriguez

Now do it with anything drawn. It will look like shit.

Mason Price
Mason Price

t. reddit

Brayden Young
Brayden Young

Yeah, that's what I wanted to do, but I figured nobody here could be arsed
mega.nz/#!ZwNkHTII!KZzLQVfeuXn35Ejho8OErdqisI2J4OahibmQXOvccr8

Logan Young
Logan Young

WOuldn't it make more sense to upload jpegs/pngs/whatever and have them converted to webp server side and displayed as webp?

My guess is that upload traffic pales in comparison to download traffic.

Michael Perez
Michael Perez

Fuck you Frasier

Josiah Johnson
Josiah Johnson

Maybee im just stupid but wouldnt it be possible to make the converter in js and have Cred Forums convert it automaticly clientside (in the browser)?

Julian Cooper
Julian Cooper

You'll still be able to browse reddit though.

Blake Torres
Blake Torres

off by one
credforums.com/thread/56896846/technology

Jace Perez
Jace Perez

it's literally mentioned in OP TWICE you fucking cuck

Zachary Ross
Zachary Ross

webp is not a standard supported by all common browsers.

Liam Collins
Liam Collins

Ban all image formats, and only allow webp and webm.
No.
If anything, convert all images uploaded to webp but fuck the thousands of images I have becoming unuploadable.

Anthony King
Anthony King

Then convert them all to webms

Gavin Miller
Gavin Miller

It's not Hiroshima's fault that Apple is made by and for retards. Either Aplelfags push Aplel to (finally) update their browser, or they buy a real phone.

Zachary Morales
Zachary Morales

sales arent a legitimate method to get more income
Especially in a case where the item isn't a necessity. Anyone who wouldn't have bought a Cred Forums pass but does because it is 3/4 the price is a victory for Hiroshima.

Levi Mitchell
Levi Mitchell

OP mentioned a 3rd party tool you have to install (wich is obviously not a very good idea). Im proposing integrating the converter on the website and still do the work clientside.
ie: you upload img in any type, your browser converts and sends.

Isaac Thomas
Isaac Thomas

That sound like a good idea

Christopher Edwards
Christopher Edwards

OP mentioned a 3rd party tool you have to install
only if you want to convert your files on your own

Kevin Murphy
Kevin Murphy

The Jap swine isn't even doing the basics to save bandwidth. This is all a ruse to start charging for passes you autistic weebs so he can make more profit on top of what he's already making selling data.

Oliver James
Oliver James

Did you just literally quote someone's post in order to point out that you said something first?

Go back to fucking reddit you piece of shit.

Justin Wright
Justin Wright

noise instead of artifacts

I can dig it. Anyone got comparisons on drawn stuff like anime?

Joseph Barnes
Joseph Barnes

this

Gabriel Walker
Gabriel Walker

Also, iPhone users wouldn't be able to see them (>inb4 iPhones are shit anyway).

Apple delibrately cuts their own limb when dealing with open standards. It's their own fault.

[spoiler]Also if Itards are so fucking retarded they would realize that you could use third party apps or jailbreak to see webm[/spoiler]

Grayson Baker
Grayson Baker

Disable constant javascript calls to server to cut down on bandwidth

William Smith
William Smith

This. The idea is to make image posting available only to Cred Forums pass users. Everybody else will have a limited selection of funny memes and smug anime faces to pick from when posting/creating threads.

Once enough people get a Cred Forums pass, a new Cred Forums VIP pass will be released, with innovative additional features, such as being able to delete your images and use tripcodes.

Jack Kelly
Jack Kelly

Why doesn't someone just make a foss browser extension for Cred Forums that automatically converts images into webp/webm format?
It could just be added as a feature to 4chanX.

Jace Cooper
Jace Cooper

webp won't make Cred Forums EXTREMELY cheap. At beast it will make like 5% difference because people will just use higher quality files instead. How do you plan on surviving another 5% of growth?

Here's my suggestion:

1. Limit file size on high-traffic boards (/pol/, /b/, /v/, /vg/). Make the limit 1 MB. It's more than enough.

2. Limit file size on porn boards.

If that's not enough

(somewhat tricky)
2b. Require a Cred Forums pass to view full size images on porn boards

(easier)
2c. Delete the porn boards

Jayden Edwards
Jayden Edwards

muh server costs

Carter Thomas
Carter Thomas

>>>/reddit/

Hunter Powell
Hunter Powell

With a site this large anything more than 5-10% would be unattainable without drastic change anyway.

If hiroyuki needs to save more than 5-10% than he has already failed as CEO and the site WILL go under. But i'd be willing to bet the current income is enough to pay for ~90-95% of the current costs, if we needed to cut by 50% then the site would have already been shut down.

Since the site is still functioning, we can assume they are managing to at least get somewhat close to the required funds to pay for the servers and bandwidth.

5-10% should be all we need.

Liam Moore
Liam Moore

What took you so long?

Also you do realize firefox will add webp support soon right? That will mean ~80% of users will be able to view webp images soon.

David Cooper
David Cooper

There's a webp thread with a bunch of examples showing over 50% compression efficiency compared to JPG.

credforums.com/thread/56900868/technology

Jordan Morales
Jordan Morales

Also: remove the archive, or at least shorten the length threads are up for on high traffic boards.

Why do something which will hardly affect the site when you can do something that will drastically help the site? Limiting the file size on even just a small number of boards and not all of them would help a lot, especially if the archive is gone.

Adam Murphy
Adam Murphy

at best it will make a 5% difference
Not true desu, and even if it was, 5% is a lot.

If you want to fix that, you can limit the unconverted file size and save it on the servers as webp (at least 50% difference).

Limiting .png, .jpg and .gif file size is a good idea, but people barely post large pictures anyway.

Joseph Cox
Joseph Cox

The issue isn't total file size, the issue is bandwidth. Archives rarely get any traffic, it's a cheap thing to implement in regards to hardware costs because it only uses storage space which is fairly cheap.

The issue is again bandwidth on high traffic boards, serving hundreds of thousands of 2MB gifs and images a day is the issue. Even with reduced file sizes on high traffic boards removing archives would do little to nothing.

Lincoln Long
Lincoln Long

Google provides an easy to use Webp command line tool, takes just a few seconds to convert a picture.

Brandon Kelly
Brandon Kelly

Is there a way to do it with ffmpeg?

Kevin Miller
Kevin Miller

Wouldn't it be best to limit the number of images per thread then? People will definitely post large webps out of spite or simply because the image they want to post is naturally large.

You cannot seriously expect every single person on this site to convert their images.

Nolan Flores
Nolan Flores

yes
command line is not "easy to use" for the masses of people.

gookjew has to implement it client side

Evan Davis
Evan Davis

Keep it open for a few days tracking every person who visits /soc/. Tracking cookies, browser fingerprinting, IP logging, private IP logging using WebRTC since every browser currently suffers from that, identify them however you can. Then just ban them and remove /soc/. Sure you could just hop on a VPN, clear your cookies, mix up your browser's fingerprint, and disable WebRTC but how many of those tards will be able to manage that?

Levi Ross
Levi Ross

Yes actually I believe currently ffmpeg can, at least with animated webp.

But last time I was using it it couldn't deconvert them.

Carter White
Carter White

command line is not "easy to use" for the masses of people.
Sure, but it wouldnt be difficult to create a GUI interface either.

Implementing client side requires decent CPU time devoted to converting. My 5820k has no problems particularly keeping up, but even it can take a couple of seconds for larger webp conversions.

Though that could be reduced by forcing lossy compression and 60-70 quality settings to further save space.

Still it would require decent CPU time considering how many people upload images to this place.

Easton Campbell
Easton Campbell

kys

webp is superior to other formats, maybe we should also bpg for jpgs?

Ryan Long
Ryan Long

Nah, that shit has royalty fees so it's DOA. Webp is the only real replacement for JPG and PNG on 4chins.

Jayden Morris
Jayden Morris

Encode:
ffmpeg -i image.png image.webp

Decode:
ffmpeg -i image.webp image2.png

Landon Bell
Landon Bell

Like I said, last time I used it for webp was with an animated webp and it wouldn't let you decode.
It worked great for encoding though, so i know it at least has partial support as of like 6 months ago.

Jason Lopez
Jason Lopez

command line is not "easy to use" for the masses of people.
romeolight.com/products/webpconv/

There you go a GUI webp converter with batch support.

William Miller
William Miller

It took my 5820k ~8 minutes (at ~45% CPU load) to convert 1038 assorted PNGs, GIFs, and JPGs

went from 403MB to 259MB.

Tyler Jenkins
Tyler Jenkins

HUGE results user! You're gonna save Cred Forums at this rate :~)

People seriously suggesting this are idiots.

Justin Hall
Justin Hall

one anons tiny pic collection is representative of all the image traffic moving through Cred Forums
k

William Flores
William Flores

You're retarded, limit boards like /b/ to 500KB, other boards to 1-2MB, maybe larger for Cred Forums pass users on every board except /b/ (since it gets the most outside traffic from lurkers)

What's your plan to save Cred Forums mate? At least forcing switching to webp and webm would make the normies leave because they cant figure out how to convert.

Isaac Martin
Isaac Martin

took my 5820k ~8 minutes (at ~45% CPU load) to convert 1038 assorted PNGs, GIFs, and JPGs

And this is why it can't be done client side.
There is no way Cred Forums can afford enough CPU power to host the site, deal with traffic AND converting everything uploaded to webp.

It MIGHT work if they implemented a queue system where your image will get uploaded once it's done being converted which could be anywhere from 5-10 seconds up to a minute if the servers are particularly loaded.

But the easier solution is just force users to convert their own collections, it's not difficult with either the command line or GUI interfaces.

Benjamin Sanchez
Benjamin Sanchez

Imgur API

Jaxson Adams
Jaxson Adams

There is no way Cred Forums can afford enough CPU power to host the site, deal with traffic AND converting everything uploaded to webp.
Considering their processors are only serving images and text, the main issue is bandwidth, not processing power.
The handful of xenon's the site likely runs out would sneeze at actively converting images to webp, especially since any individual conversion would be nearly instant

Oliver Stewart
Oliver Stewart

Host an imageboard website using another image hosting site
Fuck off, that place is concentrated cancer.

John Nelson
John Nelson

server-side
I doubt that Cred Forums's servers have the processing power to convert every image sent to them, realtime. Remember thay libvpx is pretty slow compared to other compression libraries.

Justin Scott
Justin Scott

mfw ios fags bet banished from the site

Grayson Hill
Grayson Hill

I don't understand your argument
10% less users would save even more money

Ethan Fisher
Ethan Fisher

Wouldn't it be best to limit the number of images per thread then?
The bandwidth usage will stay pretty much the same, threads will only be created faster, and it will save a little on storage.

Xavier Howard
Xavier Howard

I wonder how much infrastructure and shit it would take them to convert those files to WebP on the fly. That seems preferable to requiring people to only use those formats, since currently nothing is in WebP so I'd require a lot from the users.

James Watson
James Watson

any individual conversion would be nearly instant
Yes but you're forgetting the bottleneck will be the storage medium, nothing will be able to keep up with feeding the CPUs more images or gifs to convert because by the time it finishes converting it has to wait several milliseconds for the HDD or SSD, or even RAM to start working on the next conversion.

I think you underestimate how many images get uploaded to Cred Forums. This isn't insignificant loads we are talking about here. Can it be done? Sure. But it's not gonna happen for free, you'll use more power, generate more heat, and during a massive influx of uploads i'd be willing to be there simply aren't enough cores available to convert them all "instantly" as you seem to think.

Connor Gonzalez
Connor Gonzalez

The suggestion was that the conversion be done on the client's side tard.

Dominic Cruz
Dominic Cruz

Cred Forums can also make a conversion tool for images to webp
great idea !
i'll make the logo.

Anthony Cox
Anthony Cox

They're phone users. A large portion of them use an app (including me) which doesn't even load ads. This just makes those users data leeches. Let's say the other 70% phone users are stupid enough to use browsers or own an iPhone. Probably half of them block ads. From this you could conclude that limiting phone posting will definitely save them money, especially because I doubt only 10% users use phone for browsing. I've completely stopped using PC for Cred Forums a year ago.
Although it's very easy to build a converter into an app, it would just take you a few more seconds to download and upload images because of converting. There's no downside other than a few extra seconds of converting.

Jordan Miller
Jordan Miller

You forgot VP9 to be made mandatory for webms.
Sound should still not be enabled else the feature would considerably increase traffic as people will move from sharing youtube links to sharing webms.

Josiah Wilson
Josiah Wilson

Sooo, which is it?
The CPU is the bottleneck or the storage is the bottleneck?
Also CPU <-> RAM is not measured in milliseconds, not even remotely.

I think you're underestimating modern storage and computing speeds when it comes to image processing, honestly. I wrote a sloppy image comparison tool in golang that only used two threads and would generate to-scale images at 50% the previous size from both images in order to compare them
It went through a 10,000 image collection of jpeg and png (not gif, couldnt figure that one out) in about 15 seconds on an i5-4400, while saving every scaled image to disk.

Scale that properly to four threads, put it on a proper workstation processor, and give it access to server-grade hard drives and it'd probably take 1-3 seconds

I'm not saying the potential for a bottleneck is there, or that it wouldn't be costly serverside, I'm saying that potential is incredibly small if done right (and you wouldn't even notice if the queue grew to 1-4 seconds, since sometimes even just sending the post takes that long) and that we know the cost isn't the servers, it's the bandwidth and storage.

Ian Ramirez
Ian Ramirez

Delete /f/ and /soc/
Block JPG
Allow WebP
Block PNG
Allow FLIF

Nathaniel Scott
Nathaniel Scott

It went through a 10,000 image collection of jpeg and png (not gif, couldnt figure that one out) in about 15 seconds on an i5-4400, while saving every scaled image to disk.
Bullshit, it took 4 minutes for my 5820k to do about 700 images.

Unless you were converting 20kb pgs or some shit.

Dominic Walker
Dominic Walker

Which browsers support flif?

Owen Russell
Owen Russell

None yet but this would be a motivation to implement it. There is a fallback JavaScript decoder tho.

Isaiah Brown
Isaiah Brown

We're going to work on flif support solely because Cred Forums is trying to push it
Whatever you say.

Nicholas Hughes
Nicholas Hughes

Cred Forums users can compile their own browser with FLIF built in.

Gabriel Walker
Gabriel Walker

Actually FLIF also outperforms WebP in its lossless mode.
FLIF is factually the best image format in existence.

Logan Thompson
Logan Thompson

*lossy mode

Anthony Garcia
Anthony Garcia

FLIF is absolutely the best option here. There's a good polyfill and the progressive enhancement means NO MORE THUMBNAILS!

But regardless, this bullshit is because Hirohito just isn't having fun with Cred Forums and doesn't want to deal with it anymore.

Christian Martinez
Christian Martinez

FLIF does not yet support the following features:

Other color spaces (CMYK, YCbCr, ...)
Tiles (to store huge images with fast cropped viewing)
Better lossy compression
Native web browser support
Support in popular image tools and viewers
A highly optimized implementation

Alexander Wright
Alexander Wright

Maybe if Cred Forums wasn't hosted on a bunch of fucking Mac Minis japmoot wouldn't be scrapped for cash?

Luis Collins
Luis Collins

you're all fucking retarded

just by looking at the media and how they've approached the muh 4 chan alt-right memes it's no wonder the website is actually having a shit load more traffic.

Dominic Reed
Dominic Reed

Other color spaces (CMYK, YCbCr, ...)

Cred Forums's an imageboard, not a printing business.

Tiles (to store huge images with fast cropped viewing)

Cred Forums's not a cancer research facility

Better lossy compression

Better than most stuff out there, save for BPG in some situations.

Native web browser support

Polyfill it.

Support in popular image tools and viewers

Other formats are converted in the browser, not before.

A highly optimized implementation

That's true, but not a showstopper.

Jack Butler
Jack Butler

Polyfill it.
Yeah because EVERYONE who visits Cred Forums will do this.

It needs native browser support, dont be fucking retarded.

Kevin Baker
Kevin Baker

Yeah because EVERYONE who visits Cred Forums will do this.

A polyfill is just JavaScript. Mobilefags either get an app to use a native implementation or just use the browser.

Luke Brown
Luke Brown

or delete /pol/ and have janitors do their job and mass ban the hailstorm afterwards that don't relate to that specific board.

Joseph Flores
Joseph Flores

is it supposed to move?
it's frozen btw

Alexander Cooper
Alexander Cooper

I know what it is you dumbshit, but what are you gonna do? Have a sticky on every single board with instructions on what to install in order to view the images being hosted?

No one is gonna fucking do that, especially not first time users.

We are trying to SAVE the site, not kill it.

Aiden Gray
Aiden Gray

trusting a jew so awful he was literally run out of his country
By "can't cover" he means "not turning me a big fat jew projfit".

Parker Nguyen
Parker Nguyen

No it's a high resolution image in the Webm format, it's only 142KB.

Camden Brooks
Camden Brooks

I know what it is you dumbshit, but what are you gonna do? Have a sticky on every single board with instructions on what to install in order to view the images being hosted?

Oh my god you sure are fucking retarded. YOU DON'T INSTALL JAVASCRIPT YOU FUCKING DINGUS THE BROWSER PULLS IT AUTOMATICALLY AND IT'S USED BY THE WEBSITE'S CODE.

Eli Hall
Eli Hall

Here is a jpg of the same image.

Notice it is about 4x as large as the Webm despite being the same resolution.

Connor Gutierrez
Connor Gutierrez

IT's not the same, jpg is brighter and has more detial

Jace Wood
Jace Wood

That's not the fucking point, there isn't 4x as much detail in that picture obviously, webM has much higher compression for essentially the same image quality.

I didn't have the source file so I could only give you the closest approximation that I could find in 5 seconds on google.

David Anderson
David Anderson

You're a fucking idiot

Matthew Cox
Matthew Cox

Doesn't matter because it's still GPLv3 and not LGPLv3, so for the moment it really shouldnt be used as the current format likely wont be compatible with the final FLIF format whenever it is actually released. At that time it will likely get an LPGLv3 license.

Nathaniel King
Nathaniel King

Also: remove the archive, or at least shorten the length threads are up for on high traffic boards.
Archive doesn't really consume much resources except a bit of storage, which is hardly a problem

Zachary Ross
Zachary Ross

Incorrect. They're already using LGPLv3 and you would've known if you had done as much as opening their website.

flif.info/

Joseph Roberts
Joseph Roberts

Who is converting to FLIF? If you expect the server to do it that's gonna add some cost to the operating budget.

Julian Scott
Julian Scott

How much bw does Cred Forums use anyways?

Charles Anderson
Charles Anderson

takes 2 seconds in imagemagick as well

Carson Carter
Carson Carter

Make /pol/ a text only board except for the thread image. Those retards constantly post huge "info"graphics.

Carter Taylor
Carter Taylor

Polyfill it.
lol is this supposed to be a serious suggestion

Ayden Ramirez
Ayden Ramirez

That's true, but not a showstopper.
It takes literally like 20 seconds to encode a FLIF

versus a fraction of a second for cwebp

Hudson Sanchez
Hudson Sanchez

A polyfill is just JavaScript.
Yeah and it's also inefficient as shit, doesn't integrate properly, doesn't get color corrected, requires javashit enabled, and more

Benjamin Bennett
Benjamin Bennett

FLIF is absolutely the best option here.
FLIF needs another 4-5 years before it will be a viable replacement for webp

Dominic Baker
Dominic Baker

There's easily 4x as much detail in that jpeg. Are you blind?

The webm looks like shit in comparison.

Michael Stewart
Michael Stewart

I noticed this as well, but I think the webp/webm format will be better for a JPEG replacement. If you absolutely have to post something that is high quality, use a PNG.

Dominic Reed
Dominic Reed

Possibly a dumb question:
What's stopping de webdevs to make it so the client-side compression is done via JS in the upload dialog?
Clients without the possibility for this would end up uploading whatever, and images would be compressed on the server side

Gabriel Jones
Gabriel Jones

It triggers me so it mustn't be true

Wyatt Morales
Wyatt Morales

No one is arguing webp is higher quality, but the amount of compression it gets and still looks pretty damn good for 95% of cases...

If you need high res pictures you'll want a RAW or PNG or whatever anyway.

Joshua Cox
Joshua Cox

Which means much more revenue from ads, specially since all those newfriends hardly ever block ads

Ryder Bell
Ryder Bell

Cred Forums has bigger filesizes than /pol/, and neither compare to /gif/ and /wsg/

Ian Reyes
Ian Reyes

What's stopping de webdevs to make it so the client-side compression is done via JS in the upload dialog?
Facebook has been doing this for years
It's awful and wrecks your battery life, inefficient as fuck, and the quality it's awful at best

Brody Morris
Brody Morris

Just IP ban everyone who has posted more than once in the last week on /soc/ and /r/.

Oliver Thomas
Oliver Thomas

just convert every image you want to post to this format nobody uses
or better yet, use this unknown format that nobody uses, and oh yeah, you'll have to compile your browser because it doesn't natively support it

Yeah, I can totally see all the 4chin users doing that shit. If joot didn't kill 4chin, this surely would.

Cooper White
Cooper White

getting baited this easily
newfag

Dominic Cook
Dominic Cook

What boards should be deleted?

Part 1 /a/ through /jp/
strawpoll.me/11360155

Part 2 /k/ through /vp/
strawpoll.me/11360206

Part 3 /vr/ through /3/
strawpoll.me/11360229

Nolan Sullivan
Nolan Sullivan

BAD idea. End delivery needs to be optimised by CF for enterprise customers. With even more file formats+caching results would be worse. Also WebP doesn't offer a sufficient advantage and doesn't support many browsers.
Cred Forums should be doing Colo. Its extremely cheap, especially in HE's facilities. Bandwidth is like 300$/gbps cheap. They should be striking a deal with Amazon/Rackspace for image store+distribution. Storage is 30$ per TB cheap on Amazon. Their CDN part is still expensive at 8-17 cents/gb. Akamai should be nice. They deal with peak capacity so shouldn't be really expensive

Elijah Russell
Elijah Russell

sounds great although 40-50% would be better

Hunter Carter
Hunter Carter

safari is the #1 browser on the planet if you include mobile browsers

safari doesn't support webp

safari cannot be made to support webp

Blake James
Blake James

the best thing that can happen to this site is for it to get shut down for a good while

let the cancer disperse across the internet

peak traffic has ruined Cred Forums

Caleb Robinson
Caleb Robinson

So many retards in Cred Forums holy shit.
based on the dimensions should be roughly 7.9MB when uncompressed.
At 142KB it contains less than 1.8% of the original data. (Not impressive if it looks like total shit)
At 605KB it contains less than 7.7% of the original data.

looks a fucking ton better than .
Comparison here:

It's almost 2017. Not y2k. The internet has evolved.
Dial-up is not the norm anymore, and people tend to have reliable decent speed connections for the most part. Even on their phones while they're on a boat for fucks sake.

The truth is most comparisons between these formats are entirely misleading.
JPEG does a fine job at sane compression ratios. It's only when you try and reduce the filesize by unnecessary amounts that the artifacts become a problem.

What people care about most is a noticeable difference in quality. People don't normally care if an image is 142KB or 1MB. (Unless they have a shit ISP)
There are ridiculous diminishing returns when it comes to high compression ratios.
Once you reach a certain point, the rapid quality loss quickly outweighs the benefits of any bandwidth savings.

JPG is a LOSSY standard.
PNG is a LOSSLESS standard.
Virtually all image editing software supports the two filetypes above and a lot of them offer extensive options to tweak and reduce the filesizes of jpgs.

Not even all browsers support this webp shit.
Forget about fucking editing software.

If I had just a penny for every time I've seen an image raped beyond belief in the name of saving saving, I'd be rich. I've actually seen pixel art GIFs turned into overly compressed fucking WebMs. This trend needs to stop.

Retards need to stop trying to reinvent the wheel when all they're aiming for is the lowest of the low when it comes to quality.
Improving a wheel is always good, but if wheels start falling off because of your changes, stop.

Jordan Hughes
Jordan Hughes

source

Ian Baker
Ian Baker

solution

1. paywall all the high data boards like /hr/ and /gif/
2. ???
3. profit

Landon Lee
Landon Lee

Converting lossy format to another lossy format making the image even more blurry and artifacts from lossy compression

WebP retards, everyone

Xavier Moore
Xavier Moore

Ideally it needs to be converted and stored in different sizes when uploading and be served depending on the users resolution
But this will mess up Cloudflare's edge cache

Ayden Gonzalez
Ayden Gonzalez

Yup.
Lossy to lossy is retarded.
Lossy formats are meant to be used as a "final destination" format.

Most problems associated with jpeg actually come from people taking decent quality jpegs and then re-saving them over and over, and getting upset that the results being bad are inherent to the format itself, because they can't cope with the fact that they're doing it wrong.

This is the generation of people who actually spend half a thousand dollars on a phone and then take vertical videos with it.
Never forget.

served depending on the users resolution
No thanks.

Blake Cooper
Blake Cooper

Forcing everyone to use webp alone would halve the traffic to this site.

This is actually genius.

Jayden Hall
Jayden Hall

We don't have ads any more.

Jack Wilson
Jack Wilson

this, don't fall for his tricks
he do same to 2ch, whatever make him more money then run off

Brandon Jackson
Brandon Jackson

But I thought Notch was going to save us?

Dylan Williams
Dylan Williams

So, in some years the Jim will onwer of Cred Forums too?

Wyatt Phillips
Wyatt Phillips

mod_pagespeed module for Nginx literally does this. You can cache the transcodes with memcached. It needs a lot of resources/configuration to get right tho

Asher Rodriguez
Asher Rodriguez

ayy lmao, the shills are still at it
the ride never ends
0 days since last jewish tricks
your shit is dead, nothing will change

Adam Adams
Adam Adams

awful
opinions

wrecks your battery life
could be disabled on mobile

inefficient as fuck
what does that even mean

the quality it's awful at best
configurable

I love it when Cred Forums spouts uneducated and retarded opinions like this just because they don't like something

Wyatt Sanchez
Wyatt Sanchez

Or Cred Forums could make an iOS app that let this happen. They could even roll some features into a payed pro version. Not only would it reduce costs, it'd generate revenue. We just have to make sure the features aren't that good so it's not worth posting without them anymore.

Jacob Richardson
Jacob Richardson

So can I use webp's in flash?

Robert Butler
Robert Butler

just convert every image you want to post to this format nobody uses
you mean apart from youtube etc.?

Jayden Stewart
Jayden Stewart

ICIP2016 image compression grand challenge

slideshare.net/touradj_ebrahimi/icip2016-image-compression-grand-challenge-66475960

Isaac Long
Isaac Long

Was WebP part of the test?

Colton Brooks
Colton Brooks

Seems like it does, but that website only presents tiny-ass slides for ants for me. Care to share the full results including the various quality metrics?

Evan Gomez
Evan Gomez

Site running on mac minis.

Grayson Gonzalez
Grayson Gonzalez

Just mark everyone who uses /pol/ for 60 day ban and remove /pol/ and apply the ban

Problem solved.

Dominic Clark
Dominic Clark

No one is gonna fucking do that, especially not first time users.
So what you're saying is that stupid people will stop posting and the server costs will drop?

Daniel Stewart
Daniel Stewart

I call bullshit on that 2.98MB figure, just turn the quality waaaaaaay down and you've fixed the problem

Noah Diaz
Noah Diaz

How often does a picture get uploaded?
How long does it take for a server to convert an image?
How many servers are there?

The servers should handle it just fine. Here's the important point:

How much of a size reduction can be applied to an image, and how many times does it get downloaded?

Converting the image on the client side only reduces the amount of data transferred on upload, and while an image is downloaded many times, it is only ever uploaded once (and here we can treat a repost as a new image as the math is the same).

But basically we have this:

data_usage = upload_size + (download_size * download_count);

Reducing upload_size won't do much. Reducing download_size will do a lot on a popular thread.

Thomas Cook
Thomas Cook

If you save a WebP with 1/5th the bitrate of a JPG, it will be 1/5th as small
wow truly revolutionary

nowhere in that image does it mention actually quality-matching the two images against the same subjective quality metric

Colton Miller
Colton Miller

Why should it be done client-side in shitty slow JavaShit that will make for a far worse browsing experience when the server can do it pretty cheaply?

Dylan Martin
Dylan Martin

Web dev here, Why not do the conversion in JS? Put the load on user's computers and save the server's bandwidth and CPU.

Here's a pure JS webP converter example: libwebpjs.appspot.com/

Just have any upload convert before actually sending it, then send it and store it as WebP. Bandwidth and storage savings everywhere.

Small price to pay for saving a site.

Ayden Watson
Ayden Watson

libwebp != libvpx

Nathaniel Hernandez
Nathaniel Hernandez

Web dev here, Why not do the conversion in JS? Put the load on user's computers and save the server's bandwidth and CPU.
Fuck you, this is why we hate web devs

I don't want my computer to slow to a crawl just to load your shitty web “app”

Carter Wilson
Carter Wilson

Small price to pay for saving a site.
Small price to pay for lining mook's pockets with money*

Cred Forums isn't dying, he made that up because he isn't rolling in $$$ as much as he thought he would be

Gabriel Edwards
Gabriel Edwards

It would be worth it to save Cred Forums in my opinion.

Also, get a computer from this decade. My phone can do a medium-quality webp conversion in JS in under a second

Andrew Robinson
Andrew Robinson

Because as I mentioned here:

The main cost isn't in the uploading, it's in the downloading after it's been uploaded, because it most likely gets downloaded more often than it gets uploaded.

I also hold this sentiment, have you fuckers not heard of letting the CPU idle so it doesn't get stupidly hot, and have you fuckers not heard of CSS3, namely that thing that does the shit you're trying to do in JS only better?

Leo James
Leo James

Doing the conversion client side isn't meant to save bandwidth, it's meant to distribute the load of conversion on the server. The savings in bandwidth come from the format. A 50% reduction in size gives you returns with every download.

Liam Jones
Liam Jones

You're probably blowing more CPU time by downloading the image 20 times than you are by converting it from one format to the other

It does not take long to convert an image

Jason Rivera
Jason Rivera

Also, get a computer from this decade. My phone can do a medium-quality webp conversion in JS in under a second
Nice “buy better hardware meme”

I have a dual-xeon 2xE5 2670 16-core machine. Websites like twitter.com are unusably slow.

Kevin Scott
Kevin Scott

CPU cost aside (which can be made asynchronous with something like web workers), doing the conversion locally would actually make it faster to post images because you don't have to upload as much data.

If anything, the posting experience would be improved (as long as it's implemented properly)

Of course, it won't be implemented properly, so RIP that idea.

Carter Morris
Carter Morris

My phone can do a medium-quality webp conversion in JS in under a second

Then the server can do that in C even faster than that

Jace Jones
Jace Jones

CPU time is not usually the limiting factor on serving unencrypted web requests.

A site like Cred Forums is probably 40% SSL, 40% database, 10% web server and 10% IO/other as far as their load goes.

Adding image conversion to the mix would probably push up load by 40-50%. Serving smaller requests would cut down on their bandwidth and SSL costs, as it involves less data. WebP conversion on the client would alleviate the load immensely. Serving ONLY webP images would significantly reduce site costs.

I would typically agree, but this is a site infrastructure in a supposed crisis. I would not want to add any load to it at all. The only added server-side load to implementing this is serving an extra static cachable js file.

Jackson Nguyen
Jackson Nguyen

Sure you could just hop on a VPN, clear your cookies, mix up your browser's fingerprint, and disable WebRTC but how many of those tards will be able to manage that?
Most public VPNs are banned from posting on Cred Forums, so this wouldn't even be a real problem

Hudson Campbell
Hudson Campbell

People would just stop using Cred Forums, ain't nobody gonna convert up to ~10K of shitposting images to your shit format.

Zachary Gomez
Zachary Gomez

Here's my benchmark FWIW. Using the largest image in this thread () I time the following conversions:

# cwebp
cwebp 1475492959502.jpg -o q75.webp 2.37s user 0.06s system 98% cpu 2.472 total
cwebp 1475492959502.jpg -q 50 -o q50.webp 2.35s user 0.07s system 99% cpu 2.423 total
cwebp 1475492959502.jpg -mt -o mt.webp 2.44s user 0.07s system 101% cpu 2.461 total

# cwebp with lower quality settings (faster to encode, less efficient)
cwebp 1475492959502.jpg -m 3 -o m3.webp 2.30s user 0.05s system 99% cpu 2.354 total
cwebp 1475492959502.jpg -m 2 -o m2.webp 1.04s user 0.04s system 99% cpu 1.091 total
cwebp 1475492959502.jpg -m 1 -o m1.webp 0.91s user 0.04s system 99% cpu 0.954 total
cwebp 1475492959502.jpg -m 0 -o m0.webp 0.78s user 0.04s system 99% cpu 0.823 total

# other encoders
convert 1475492959502.jpg im.webp 3.40s user 0.31s system 98% cpu 3.749 total
ffmpeg -i 1475492959502.jpg lavc.webp 2.67s user 0.24s system 99% cpu 2.914 total

Seems like cwebp (libwebp) is the fastest, but it's also not completely negligible for an image of this size.

Conversion was single-threaded and running on a 3.3 GHz SB-E generation i7 with 20 MiB of L3 cace.

Aiden Anderson
Aiden Anderson

There'd be even less load if you used shit-tier jpegs for your thumbnails

Jonathan Ortiz
Jonathan Ortiz

A site like Cred Forums is probably 40% SSL, 40% database, 10% web server and 10% IO/other as far as their load goes.
CloudFlare terminates the SSL endpoint. How does CloudFlare communicate with Cred Forums?

Jackson Scott
Jackson Scott

I posted years ago that all gifs should be converted to webms by the server, discarded and replaced with the webms.

Nobody listened.

And now this guy is suggesting the same for jpeg -> webp

I hope people actually listen this time.

James Diaz
James Diaz

How widespread is WebP support right now?

Aaron Powell
Aaron Powell

People would just stop using Cred Forums
Good riddance?

If they can't be bothered to spend an extra second per image to continue using Cred Forums, this is clearly not their home.

Xavier Young
Xavier Young

Whoops. Forgot they were on a CDN. Cloudflare does in fact do SSL for them. It's HTTP, cloudflare is essentially a giant proxy.

Charles Bailey
Charles Bailey

All browsers based on WebKit and WebEngine/Blink (chrome, opera, brave, qutebrowser, etc.) support it, and I believe so does Microsoft's stuff (Edge etc.)

Firefox is the only major browser that doesn't support it yet in the current release version, but it's already on mozilla's roadmap

Justin Fisher
Justin Fisher

caniuse.com/#search=webp

Pretty lacking, honestly

Caleb Watson
Caleb Watson

ipfs or webtorrent
webtorrent or ipfs
ipfs or webtorrent
webtorrent or ipfs
ipfs or webtorrent
webtorrent or ipfs
ipfs or webtorrent
webtorrent or ipfs
ipfs or webtorrent
webtorrent or ipfs
ipfs or webtorrent
webtorrent or ipfs

Jacob Reed
Jacob Reed

I use Firefox.

Michael Johnson
Michael Johnson

Also I thought SSL was pretty cheap these days?

istlsfastyet.com/

Google claims only 1% of their CPU load is SSL, mainly thanks to modern cryptographic techniques like ECDHE and AESGCM.

And if that was actually a problem for Cred Forums (which it clearly isn't since cloudflare terminates SSL), then it would be easiest to just disable the slower ciphers.

Adrian Rodriguez
Adrian Rodriguez

convert all my images on 4chin to webp, just to use on 4chin
wew no

hiro is making shit up just so he can get more money, like he did to 2ch

Hunter James
Hunter James

If you're using nightly you could try seeing if

image.webp.enabled
exists yet in about:config

Mozilla in their infinite wisdom will have it disabled by default

Easton Jackson
Easton Jackson

if i use FILF to convert a pic can i still preview it or use it anywhere else then Cred Forums (if Cred Forums supports it)?

you a retard, you dont have an idea of what your talking about, and you should kill yourself for the betterment of humanity

Brody Hall
Brody Hall

Size is not quality dumbass. I have told you over and over that your meme is weak and you still don't get it. This user knows

Jayden Perez
Jayden Perez

people visit Cred Forums for the image quality
its not to late you can still buy some sturdy rope

Gavin Howard
Gavin Howard

if i use FILF to convert a pic can i still preview it or use it anywhere else then Cred Forums (if Cred Forums supports it)?
WebP is supported by most major websites including youtube, imgur, twitter etc. and probably other websites that I haven't tested, as well as most image viewers I know.

FLIF is not supported by anything as far as I can tell. It's a highly-experimental codec still. The basic format isn't even finalized, and the reference encoder is completely unoptimized. Suggesting people use it in production is a cruel joke.

Benjamin Adams
Benjamin Adams

Forget about fucking editing software.
All image editing software I tried supports webp (imagemagick, krita, gimp)

Carson Phillips
Carson Phillips

Not sure where you got your Gimp from, because mine doesn't support it

Supports MNG though

Xavier Martin
Xavier Martin

There's a plugin for it, like everything else with GIMP

Aiden Davis
Aiden Davis

he bought a dud

Brody Moore
Brody Moore

gimp doesnt officialy support webp right now the release 2.10 will have full support

and the official support was patched in in august this year

phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=GIMP-WebP-Image-Support

Anthony Smith
Anthony Smith

I used to be surprised how many "internet experts" think image formats come in fixed size.

But now I see it all the time, they always blog about their "research" as "I tried format A and I got this size, I tried format B and I got that size".

Hudson Young
Hudson Young

Do you really think amazon would want to host cp?

Samuel James
Samuel James

4chsn isn't allowed on the Apple store

Jackson King
Jackson King

Thumbnails are jpg

Christopher Rogers
Christopher Rogers

Doubt they care. It should be deleted if a mod deletes it or it 404s.
What about Cloudflare? Don't they care?
There are plenty of CDN services. Imgur uses Fastly I think. The only concern is that many of them have poor peering relationships, especially in the APAC region. Akamai is good all over the world and the pricing works in throughput in peak time. Once you start going with one of these services then pricing becomes easier to negotiate.
Or Cred Forums should start building their own network and make networks peer with them. Just Colo in Europe, Asia and west/east coast with decent bandwidth should be a good starting point. Images uploaded to the US initially and then pushed to all other nodes. Bandwidth is symmetric so pushing images won't hurt performance. Many IXPs have a route server for BGP and many companies have an open peering policy.

Sebastian Russell
Sebastian Russell

Don't ban jpeg/png completely, just reduce their size. Allow 1MiB for those, and 2MiB for webp.

This will cause pepes to reeee, but what can you do.

Jeremiah Martin
Jeremiah Martin

just ban all gay/tranny bullshit site-wise and enforce it with an iron fist

Nicholas Reed
Nicholas Reed

look at this wierd dog lol

Xavier Johnson
Xavier Johnson

banning discussion of the new lesbian magical girl anime just because one of lesbians happens to have a penis

Jose Sullivan
Jose Sullivan

That's pretty retarded.

Brayden Thompson
Brayden Thompson

Just lower the limit on the file size and add support for webp. The users that want to upload better imgs will move to webp. The lower limit reduces the bandwith needed.

Daniel Wood
Daniel Wood

Yea thats a fucking dog dumbass.

Grape Tree fuck

Aaron Allen
Aaron Allen

Cred Forums can also make a

Asher Adams
Asher Adams

everyone against this doesn't understand the purpose of containment boards.

b must stay alive for a reason

Ryder Rogers
Ryder Rogers

99.9999% of the posters won't know or care about it. Problem solved

Austin Richardson
Austin Richardson

just sell out to mail.ru you fucks

20mb picture limits, 40mb webm

Cooper Clark
Cooper Clark

Ok.

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