Look at it from his perspective

>When did Saruman the Wise abandon reason for madness?

Saruman knew better than anyone how badly the odds were stacked against them, and even though serving Sauron and living in his world would be barely better than death his fear caused him to turn.

Deal with it, loser.

>Be sent by god to protect life and granted power to do so

>Instead sit around doing nothing for thousands of years except bitch and moan, and then when evil turns up betray everything you were created for

Sauron was going to kill him anyway, Saurman was stupid to think he was going to be spared.

he wasn't wrong, but his endgame is questionable

OK, ally with Sauron to survive, makes sense. But once Sauron conquers middle earth, then what? Just work for him making more orcs for eternity? Try to steal the ring eventually?

>have the God of everything on your side
>turn against him

Why?

why didn't the eagles just assassinate saruman?

The jews did it all the time in the old testament.

>I'm gonna sell out everyone I know for power and because I'm a little bitch
wow good point op

You obviously never read the Silmarillion, mate

Of course I don't read, faggot.

Rude

I tried reading Tolkein once and he just describes sign posts for 3 chapters, fuck that.

He had it coming, not for terrorizing the whole Middle Earth, but for mistreating poor little Grìma.

What was Saruman's end game? Or Sauron's for that matter? No matter how well they did, even if they did conquer all of Middle Earth, wouldn't ultimately someone like Tulkas show up and beat the shit out of them?

>Look at it from his perspective.

Stop forcing this

>Try to steal the ring eventually?
He was trying to steal it from the start. He instructed his soldiers to bring the ring back to him and not to Sauron

What is anyone's end game? Eventually we all die anyway.

He could use a fireball on them

If they hadn't done dumb shit they could have lived forever.

>Bad guy: Sauron
>Secondary bad guy: Sauron-man
Bravo Jackson, bravo.

How did Gandalf not realize he was Sauron's man?

Industrialization of Middle-Earth. If Sauron had won they would all have had internet in 200 years

Jackson didn't write it, Tolkein did.

He hid it really well.

U N D E R A T E D

He smoked weed as Sauron's man said.

Nothing wrong with smoking a little weed.

>who is Gollum?

Gollum is objectively not evil.

From my perspective, the Gollum is evil

weed makes you retarded

The denizens of Middle-Earth can exist in a moral grey area. The powers that shape the world don't.

Sometimes you need a man the people love to hate; or hate to love.

what was salmon anyway? a ghost or an alien?

Read the books you moron!!

>Saruman
Get the ring, take down Sauron, create a society where the wisest rule, in this cause obviously him. Industrialization.
>Sauron
Get the Ring, conquer Men. Wipe out Elves and Dwarves, turn Middle Earth into an industrial wasteland.

>From my point of view, it is the Men who are evil!

What did he mean by this?

>wouldn't ultimately someone like Tulkas show up and beat the shit out of them?

Nope. Undying lands don't care about Middle-Earth. Sauron could've ruled unopposed.

As for Saruman, his endgame was the Ring and he would've ruled Middle-Earth.

>now, finally, after so long, I have become the Lord of the Rings

Who said that?

>"We have a character who is evil and always whispering twisted lies to the good guys to mislay them... What could he be called?"
>"how about wormtongue?"
Wow, amazing creativity Jackson.

This- The Valar are either good or evil. Melkor is the embodiment of evil and so Sauron is a servant of evil. The Valar who built and nurture the world are objectively good.

Then you have the races like Elves- who are symbols of purity and order (although not perfect), and you have Orks, who are harbingers of chaos and evil.

The individual characters certainly are in a moral grey area. Sauraman only joins Sauron because he believes that it is futile to fight him. So, morals are objective in the Lotr universe, but the characters are not fully good or bad- think of how Frodo almost became corrupted near the end. Basically, chaos/disorder= evil, order/beauty= good.

>take down Sauron

Let's face it, Saruman would probably enslave Sauron if he had the Ring.

hai Quentin

Jackson didn't name him.

FUCK STOP IT JACKSON DID NOT MAKE THE LOTR UNIVERSE YOU PLEB READ THE BOOKS>

I thought only Sauron could use the full power of the ring?

Off topic, but who would be stronger with the ring on, Gandalf or Saruman

>that it is futile to fight him

Noice quads but no. Saruman joined Sauron because he thought that was the quickest and easiest way to get the Ring.

Yep, this is true. The ring and Sauron are bound. This is nonsense talk of Saruman enslaving Sauron. Sauron is one step down from a Valar, and is basically a God. Saruman is way down the power scale compared to him, he could probaby only use the ring to go invisible, like Bilbo did.

I'm going by the movie here but really powerful beings could use the Ring too. Maybe they couldn't use it to its full extent but they certainly would be more powerful than Ringless Sauron and probably more powerful than any other being in Middle-Earth.

Okay so let's say Sauron wins and takes over the Middle Earth, what's next? What are the Orcs gonna do? What happens to him?

Ok then he is evil, but my point still stands that whilst evil is objective in Lotr, characters "have both light and dark inside" them. And that is a quote from the actual books. The characters generally have evil and good in them, and so overall become morally grey. When Gandalf reverts to being "Gandalf the White", he is completely pure again and is in his more powerful, Godlike state.

What the fuck no, Saruman is a maiar too

Yes he is a Maiar, so he is very powerful (I forgot Saruman was a Maiar for a second), but he is still way less powerful than Sauron, who has power given to him directly from Melkor, the most powerful Valar.

This is true. Saruman had his power limited. Sauron didn't.

That's a load of crap. Galadriel, just an elf, had a preview power surge and Maiar would be equal to hobbits?

Sauron is a maia, powerful one, yes, but still on the same level as the five wizards. Except they got their powers curtailed to let the races of M-E deal with Sauron. I'm pretty sure the Ring would remove such limitations.

Well that depends I suppose on whether the ring would remove the limitations from Saruman. You do have to remember that the ring is bound to Sauron and has a will of its own.

But yeah if Saruman got the ring and it removed his limits he would be more powerful than a Sauron with no ring. Hell, Sauron would probably suffer greatly from his conneciton to the ring being torn- if that is even possible.

I love these threads so much

he actually planned to get the ring for himself, just pretended to play along with sauron
at least, in the book
in the movie he probably just planned to be second in command after sauron

The Saruman of the films is a much better villain, than in the books, where he comes off as a bitter jerk. Lee gives him much dignity and gravitas, where you can see traces of his former nobility.

It's a shame his scene in the third film was cut. Since they weren't going to show him scouring the Shire, I would have liked to have seen him go down fighting the Witch King.

Cred Forums loves Tolkien so much it baffles me.

Tolkien is just great. It's impressive how one man could create such an elaborate universe with such an epic story. The main reason I love Lotr is because it is the ultimate good vs evil storyline. Although I know the outcome I can still watch the Lotr movies whenever and still massively enjoy them.