Was Tony right to do it?

Reminder the Sopranos are white niggers. Literal subhuman trash.

Like Tony's family means endorsing lawlessness.

Just when I thought I was out

He didn't die, that was just the beginning of his breakdown.

Little known fact... Ralphie never killed the horse... he just got so pissed off at Tony from the disrespectful questions + the stress of his kid in the hospital he blew his top

What are you, an arson investigator now? They said it was an accident, right?

They come and put me inside

Do we know what pants directions were for this scene? It's hard to tell if he's playing it like ralphie is lying or not.

No, one of the absolute worst decisions Tony ever made. Ralph was a snake but had capacity for loyalty, and he was the top earner. Tony shot himself in the foot and kicked off the downfall of his Family.
>Has to start a conflict with NY just to deflect the guilt off himself
>Gets Little Carmine involved in an attempt to quell that conflict
>Little Carmine's presence in New York leads to the civil war after his father dies
>This leads to Tony B killing Billy Leotardo
>This leads to Phil's lingering hatred of NJ and the events of the final season

Yeah the scene is brimming with doubt; I think that's the question you're supposed to be asking: did Ralphie even do this?

AYY AND SO WHAT IF HE DID? MADONN'

I think Pantsman is on record saying he believes Ralph was innocent of the stable fire. Of the writers of the episode, I wanna say Robin Green thinks he did it and Mitchell Burgess thinks he's innocent. Tim Van Patten, the director, hasn't taken a stance that I know of. Nor has David Chase, but I have to assume that he would say it's inconsequential whether Ralph actually did it or not. The point is that Tony did not want to believe him. Just like in therapy, the focus is what Tony believes, not the truth.

yes, they are called italians

>AYY AND SO WHAT IF HE DID? MADONN'

That's the thing. Imagine being Ralphie in this situation if he was innocent, vs. if he was guilty. Like imagine having to defend a frugal business decision you made while your son is comatose in the fucking hospital, just because your boss is an animal lover and doesn't like the cut of your jib. Even worse, imagine you're innocent and still having to defend yourself. I would lose my temper and get myself Tony'd too if I were him.

Always had the impression tony was being benevolent when killing his close friends, David made it look like he was putting and end to their misery.

>Ralph definitely kills a cooze for no reason
>Tony essentially does nothing

>Ralph may or may not have killed a horse for a greatly profitable windfall for the Tony
>SHE WAS A BEEYOOTIFUL, INNASENT CREATCHA

Fuckin' ay, Ton'.

this.

Also when you see chris at his intervention, and adriana brings up him killing the dog by accident, and tony gets pissed and focused on that for the rest of the session

You can't go behind the boss' back like that, especially on something that you know is important to him personally. You sure as shit don't try to lie about it. And you absolutely don't pull this shit when you're already on his bad side.

Melfi was full of shit there, though.

Little known fact... Tony didn't kill Ralph because of the horse, and he didn't kill him to avenge Tracee. He killed Ralph to keep him from ever redeeming himself as a person.

I think he couldve done it when tony basically eye balled him to death when their horse won the race and ralphie gave him all of his winnings.

How was Ralph supposed to know he was on Tony's bad side? He fucked with Paulie, but Paulie is a jackass. As far as Ralph knew Ton and he buried the hatchet.

Now consider this: what if Ralph didn't even do it? He wasn't in his right mind. His kid was fucked up, his goomar left him (for Tony), and he was still breaking his fucking back for an otherwise sinking crew.

How would you react? He shouldn't disrespect, but what, he should lie down?

Also, if Tony was going to come at him he needed an okay. Even the king has to obey the law. That's why he's all skiddish when Chrissy asks him what happened and he doesn't own up. He knew it was a big fuck-up.

>You can't go behind the boss' back like that, especially on something that you know is important to him personally.

That's bs though. Tony's affection for the horse has no basis to factor into a business decision. Remember, he was on the fence about Tracee, who he ultimately decided was not worth whacking Ralph because of her lack of legitimized connection to anyone in the family. So he sure as fuck has no basis to kill Ralph over a horse for whom Ralph assumed all the risk while Tony took a cut of the profits, including the insurance payout, just because Tony liked that horse. He knew he fucked up too, that's why he literally instigated the rest of the conflict with New York just to shift the blame for Ralph's death.

On a personal level, Ralph would have probably known Tony wouldn't take too kindly to setting the stable fire. But he had no idea Tony would get so completely irrational and fucking retarded about it.

youd think that but he was also stupid enough to get pegged by his bosses sister. like how the fuck was he not more secretive with shit like that, youd think hed be way more careful for people not to find out about that.

...

Tony was acting like an emotional child because Ralph killed an animal and to Tony at least animals represented his family.

...

I OUGHTA SUFFOCATE YOU YA PRICK!

Is this a threat?

Literally what did he mean by this?

SHUT THE DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I think it was partly a threat and partly an expression of trust

Tony is fucked up like that

Tony was probably just gonna put him in his place, and not full on kill him, but iirc Ralphie goes for a coffee pot or something and Tony realizes that he has to go all the way.

Fucking this
+
I really liked Ralphy due to his psycho behaviour and randomness. I felt during my first watching that he truly bent the stable, but Tony killed him because of the stripper's death earlier and conflict which eraised.

It wasn't something as simple as a delayed reaction to Ralph killing the stripper. That moment, and most of the second half of season 3, basically cemented in Tony's mind that Ralph was the worst scumbag in his crew, someone he could always feel morally superior to and have no qualms mistreating or taking advantage of. Remember when Tony keeps his hand out after the horse race, silently demanding more money from Ralph? He wouldn't treat anyone else with that disrespect. Ralph was just his chew toy to an extent. Tony killed Ralph partly because of Ralph's apparent signs of personal redemption after Justin's accident. He couldn't handle the idea that Ralph, his designated piece of shit who was worse than him, could actually come into the light and improve himself, because this would call into question Tony's superiority over him and invite self loathing. He had to believe Ralph set the stable fire, and take this as a sign that Ralph didn't really change (as Paulie suggested), because otherwise his careful compartmentalization would implode. And of course, Tony confronting Ralph this way was a huge disrespect that led to both men losing their temper. After it got physical, there was no turning back, this being the second time Tony raised his hand to this made guy. The moment Tony threw the first punch, one of them had to die in that kitchen. So the killing itself was hardly even motivated at all, it just became a necessity after a long string of events that led to that punch.

there's a name for it lad it's called italians

horses are rather dumb desu

full of shit? she was reading from a book you twat.

Lots of valid points ITT, but I think it comes down to a coupla tree t'ings. One of the major underlying things of the show is how the rules of cosa nostra only apply when they are necessary and as Johnny Sack states, they break the rules more than the Catholic church. It's even said in season 1 that a new boss either abides by the old rules or makes new ones.

In the sense that Tony was the boss, he was right to take out Ralph. The circumstances were trumped up bullshit, but as we know with Ralph it would have been something else sooner or later and they would have been at odds again. However Albert Barese had a valid point as well that Sil should be the one to take Tony out, if he in fact killed Ralph over a horse, which he did. But again it comes back to the boss being the boss, and I think it is telling that it's Patsy who Albert makes this statement too. And Silvio does nothing with this point Albert makes, and he knows Tony better than any one else. As the old adage goes, might makes right. Besides that cocksuckin fanook proved to be an even better earner.

youtube.com/watch?v=2Y4H7HMwNXg

Shit, I didn't think of it this way at first, but you're right. This was all kinds of personal from so many different angles.

Tony went in there, knowing what was going on with his kid and everything, to knock Ralph down a peg with his moral superiority, but when Ralph denied it, and it even seemed like there may be some question that he did it, that only made the situation way worse. It put Tony in the wrong and elevated Ralph's moral position even further if Tony came in there throwing wild accusations at a top-earning made man in a time of personal grief and psychic rehabilitation.

Tony /had/ to believe he did it. If Ralph didn't do it, he was only further rebuking Tony with his innocence which --compounded with Ralph's already genuinely repentant attitude -- no doubt sent Tony over the edge.

He had to die a sinner so he could forever remain one.

Shit.

Eh, that's what they say around the table, but when it all shakes out, the consensus of the family has to support a big decision like that, boss or now boss. It can make certain people feel real uncomfortable-like.

>He did what?
>A horse?
>I dunno Tony, this kid's a good earner for us
>Just tax him 'n' be done wit it

the horse was the justification really what irked tony was how he killed that girl and how ralph was such a hothead

it's not exactly an obscure film. ralph clearly had mommy issues and that showed nevermind in the goofy strap-on fuck but how he quoted gladiator and insisted on being a tough guy

Definitely, but again for all their preening and macho bullshit, this wasn't the old school mob anymore. Tony wanted to give Vito a pass because he was a big earner. He also could have outed Ralph for his own sexual proclivities. This was a monster Tony helped to create because of his own avarice.

But at the end of it all is the boss is the boss is the boss. That's the real rule of cosa nostra, regardless of the message it sends or how it works out, as we see over and again throughout the show.

A huge majority of that episode (like much of the series) is about Tony's perception of the events around him. The dream with the butterfly on Ralph's head just two episodes later confirms that Tony may have had his doubts about the sincerity of Ralph's changing his ways, but part of him saw it was actually possible, and this is what actually scared him. In the scene where Ralph brings Tony the envelope and cries in front of him, you can see Tony literally sweating like he's about to have a panic attack. Ralph's humanity terrifies him because it forces him to look at himself and Ralph as two human beings who can be compared to one another, not a superior and inferior symbol.

Compare that sweating to just one scene later, when Paulie comes in and just tears Ralphie down as a piece of shit who will never change despite his "crocodile tears". Tony tells him off, but seems almost comforted - he ends that scene embracing Paulie, smiling warmly at him and promising to visit his Ma. Paulie provides a perspective that screws Tony's head back on straight, at least momentarily.

I think when Tony drove to Ralph's house, that side of him that agreed with Paulie half expected a weird fantasy where Ralph suddenly drops the whole "grieving father" act, does his signature cackle and admits the jig is up. "Ya caught me Tone! I don't care about Justin, I'm pure evil just like you thought!" Then Tony chews him out, takes most of the insurance money from Pie Oh My, and everything goes back to normal. But the side of him sweating in his office, nervously looking away from a crying Ralph, made up his mind to snuff this man out the moment he made up his mind who set the fire.

If Vito had to be killed because he was a fag I don't see why Ralphie shouldn't be killed for being Janice's bitch.

Which episodes are you talking about? Your post made me want to watch this arc all over again. Great post.

This is some top notch analysis. I am now glad I made this thread.

I love this fucking show and I love you user. ASALUD.

>he fell for Ralphies sob story act and the old crocodile tears trick

Same empty show he puts on in his first episode when he comes over with the guys after Livia dies. Tony nearly has a panic attack because he can't fucking stand Ralph and always sees through him, a lot like how Richie Aprile's mere presence was enough to induce a panic attack.

It's pretty simple, it's just because Janice is a woman (arguably). Might result in a situation similar to Junior with the pussy eating in season 1, but Ralph never had the kind of rigid desire to be respected that Junior had, and most everybody was kind of creeped out by him anyways.

THIS
H
I
S

Whoever Did This is the definition of telekino. How can one show be so amazing?

Did you just compare taking a dildo up the ass to suckin pussy? All these guys are confirmed puss eaters at least once a year, others probably more. The only reason Junior caught shit for whistling through the wheat fields was because his piece blabbed about it down at the hair salon and it got back to Tony.

Yeah, Ralphie was fucking openly depraved and didn't give a shit most of the time. He did lie to Tony about his goomar being a good lay though, so maybe he was just really oblivious to how people perceived him day-to-day and thought that his capo status automatically garnered him respect.

The butterfly dream was in Calling All Cars. All the other scenes I referenced were in Whoever Did This.

Ralph's tears in his literal first scene weren't exactly crocodile tears, it seemed more like a Livia/Janice-esque way of using actual emotional turmoil to draw attention to himself like a narcissist. As for his crying over Justin, there is an uncomfortable suggestion throughout those scenes that the same instinct is at play, crying excessively to gain sympathy and attention, but there are also signs of real emotion, taking advantage of the situation. I think his most genuine reaction was when he lashed out at the kid at the hospital - he didn't know quite how to process grief and needed to hurt someone weaker than him when unpleasant emotions came bubbling up, like how he had to kill Tracee when she hit him and presumably reminded him of his abusive mommy. It's only when he's being physically restrained by Tony that he breaks down crying to defuse the situation. That's one reading, but again, it's a Schrodinger's cat situation. Why bother to set up the scholarship under Jackie Jr's name, propose to Rosalie, or talk to Father Phil if it's all just manipulation?

...

His point was Tony was a hypercriticl, eating beef and sausage by the fuckin' carload

Yeah. If Tony hadn't come up with that quick Johnny Sack story, he would have eventually gotten whacked by one of his own guys. Kind of ironic, the whole misdirection that Johnny killed Ralph was one of Tony's craftier moments, but it was in service of covering up the dumbest shit he ever did.

thangs

>tfw Ralphie taught me the best way to cook eggs
>sour cream, the secret ingredient

>Why bother to set up the scholarship under Jackie Jr's name, propose to Rosalie, or talk to Father Phil if it's all just manipulation?

idk isn't that the kind of shit manipulative people do? it's all about them. The guy is obviously as fucked up as Tony but has different ways about him. Proposing to Ro is about him, same as the scholarship, and going to Father Phil. Like going through the motions sort of. Nothing at the hospital felt genuine to me, it all seemed like Ralph was doing it because he thought that's how a parent is suppose to act. Nothing at all about his visit with Father Phil came off as genuine.

We'll never know if he had a genuine spiritual reawakening or if it was an all an act. But what I do know is whatever he thought he had awoken too, he hadn't changed much, he's still willing to bust guys up to fill his coffers. SO whatever his change may have been, he went from a psycho who beats hookers to death and maliciously beats people and orders murders, to what, a less violent mobster? What was he really going to do? Was he going to walk away?

>his special spaghetti technique
>his scrambled eggs secret ingredient

I wonder what other cooking secrets Ralphie was hanging on to

FUG YOU T

WE NEVER GOT TO SEE HIM MAKE MANNAGOT'

I don't buy that he would set up a yearly $20,000 scholarship just to look good for his manipulation game. Also, the fact that he almost guiltily admitted to Tony that he had to rough a guy up for the envelope was almost out of character. I'm sure he and all the other guys did that plenty of times and never mentioned it, or cracked a joke about it. He obviously wasn't going to immediately pull a complete moral 180, but he was showing signs that Justin's injury was starting to put things in perspective for him and take a toll on his conscience.

Also:
>he went from a psycho who beats hookers to death and maliciously beats people and orders murders, to what, a less violent mobster?
This is another point, that even if he showed the bare minimum of improvement as a person, that would put him basically on the same level as Tony. That's the juxtaposition that made Tony uncomfortable.

You have to look at it from Tony's point of view, not your own. It all makes sense from a certain point of view.

Ralph was a good friend

This

At least we got to see his eggs get scrambled

The New York thing started because of Ralphie telling the joke at the party and Paulie feeding a bunch of information to Johnny and Carmine like a sap.
Paulie really was a huge retard but goddammit he's too loveable.

Nah, the mole joke led to some underlying tensions but it didn't directly lead to all the shit with NY. Ralphie getting killed had a tangible result. It's likely Tony would have come to an agreement with NY on the Esplanade if he still had his top earner and didn't have to cover up an unacceptable murder.

Johnny Sack was Tony's best/only fall guy for Ralph's disappearance, but to pin the murder on him necessitated starting conflict with New York and denying their cut of the HUD deal.

This led to all the shit with the appraiser, and Tony having to bring Little Carmine up from Florida to try and pacify his father.

Little Carmine was content in Florida, but the whole HUD situation legitimized him as an heir to his father, as Johnny said. It was because of this that he got the balls to try and take over the family after his father's death.

And from there, the Carmine/Johnny civil war is what led to all the major conflict of the last two seasons.

>The dream with the butterfly on Ralph's head just two episodes later confirms that Tony may have had his doubts about the sincerity of Ralph's changing his ways, but part of him saw it was actually possible, and this is what actually scared him.
Fuck, I've been wondering what that meant for ages now. Thank you user.

Didn't Johnny only find out about the HUD deal because Paulie spilled the beans to him ("off the record" of course) during a lunch together?

The caterpillar/butterfly transformation is also a symbol of death, and his bald head that of Ralph's final, earnest attitude

The significance of the moth is change. Caterpillar into chrysalis or pupa, from thence into beauty. Our Ralphie wants to change, too.

OHH AYY YOU SPILLED FAVA BEANS IN THE MOOTZADELL YOU MALOKE

CLARICE WOULD YOU PLEASE SHOW THE CASE FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILE

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