How did he lost to a untrained girl?

He had a boner.

wtf, I love George Lucas now!

Why didn't he just force choke Finn and take the lightsaber?

>Kylo was gutshot by the bowcaster
>Finn got a hit in on his dominant arm before getting BTFO
>he was never trying to kill Rey, whereas she was giving everything she had
>the movie shows that Rey is trained in melee combat and can defend herself pretty well
>she's extremely force sensitive in the same way Luke and Anakin were because she's Anakin reincarnated

so there's a lot of reasons

because Finn was trying to fight him with the lightsaber and clearly had no idea what he was doing

Kylo's the kind of prissy shit that would take that as an insult and say to himself "I'm going to cut out this traitor's spine for pretending he can use my grandpappy's lightsaber"

he wanted to defeat him in a duel and then kill him

>because she's Anakin reincarnated

please stop with this meme

TFA went out of its way to avoid any references to the prequels. Anakin isn't even mentioned by name. Why would Episode VIII suddenly rely on the bullshit prophecy from Phantom Menace that everyone would rather forget?

>TFA went out of its way to avoid any references to the prequels.
>Kylo Ren kills blacks the same way Anakin did in Ep. III
>Not-Yoda mentions "sith"

>Anakin isn't even mentioned by name.
And? Why would they need to? You're nitpicking at shit that isn't even there.

He took way too long considering how he slashed him once he got serious. He knew he was already wounded and still fucked around with Finn? Too much plot stupidity.

That's not how the force works!
>tin can laugh track

they literally had drafts of the movie where anakin was going to come back as a force ghost

the rey=anakin meme is bullshit but they're only avoiding dumb bullshit like midocholrians and jar jar, not the broad strokes from the prequels

>>Not-Yoda mentions "sith"
Sith goes back to Lucas's OT documents. It's part of that lore even if the OT don't mention it by name.

It did seem mismatched. However she did have some combat experience shown earlier in the movie and he was wounded. Plus fin softened him up a little.

>plot stupidity
>Kylo acts arrogant and doesn't crush Finn immediately because he's a whiny little shit and he wants to toy with him

that sounds more like Kylo being a fucking idiot than anything wrong with the plot itself

cause stronk wimin

It's not a meme. She was born from Midi-chlorian manipulation just like Anakin.

These, you saw how much force is behind Chewbaca's crossbow when it threw Stormtroopers around like ragdolls

You saw her close her eyes and Become One With The Force

>It's part of that lore even if the OT don't mention it by name.
autism speaks

Same way Trump is going to lose to Hillary, the girl is clearly superior.

Get over it women are funny

BECAUSE THE FORCE AWAKENED

says who?

Kylo is an angsty little bitch who keeps flip floping between light and dark, and his master never really trained him. Hes worse than Anakin, he doesn't have a cool Obi-Wan to supervise him.

Plus Rey is the reincarnation of the first "Jedi" or person who was the first one to use the force.

Plus I think Rey had the high ground too.

>an entire thread about Kylo fucking up
>no one mentions how he killed his dad like two minutes beforehand and clearly had mixed feelings about it

Kylo was emotionally compromised and also got fucked up by Finn and Chewie before he fought Rey. And at that point as was mentioned before he wasn't trying to kill her, and she was fighting to kill.

The movie literally throws reasons for Kylo to lose at the audience but Cred Forums is too triggered by muh diversity to notice

Because he wants to fuck said untrained girl.

Common sense. Just wait and see. It'll be hinted at more in the next episode when she gets seduced by the dark side and then confirmed in IX. We're getting a female Darth Vader.

Disney doesn't have the balls.

>he was shot in the gut by a bowcaster capable of blowing away fully armored stormtroopers
>Finn tired him out and probably has some melee training
>Rey is not untrained in melee combat either
>Rey is very strong in the force

It's right there in the movie, faggo

...

Exactly. He knows she's powerful. He doesn't want to kill her. He wants to bring her to the dark side.

Even a Sith knows that blood loss is bad for fighting. No sane combatant would outright fight with blood pooling out of him.

>Rey force choking someone for failing

fetish acquired

He wasn't trying to kill her you dumbfuck. He literally says I can help you become stronger if you turn to the dark side.

That's what they want you to think.

That's the stupidiest fucking thing I've ever heard and I didn't even go watch this horeshit movie.

>muh female empowerment we need female lead
>give everyone Rey a backwater red neck that somehow whoops a competent force user easily
>hey how about we just make her evil lol yeah!

You sound stupid. I'd laugh my ass of if they did do that and just reverse the roles of Caedus and Jainia though and see her die.

"No, you are my father" - Luke

>Even a Sith knows
>implying Kylo is a Sith

he's an insecure force sensitive with daddy issues who's obsessed with his grandpa. he lacks control and his emotions are easily fucked with. he was acting like an idiot because he was hurt and he just killed his dad and he fucking hated finn and wanted to capture rey so Snoke didn't think he was an incompetent fuckboy

so basically plenty of in-story reasons that he would not act calm and rationally. he's a different kind of autistic than you

getting shot in the stomach by chewie's OP crossbow thing

>Imbecile who hasn't even seen the movie judges my prediction.

Yea, its pretty obvious it was a refrence to the "rule of two", Kylo wanted to train Rey and overthrow Snoke

I am still sticking to my unlikely theory that Rey is somehow very old. That she is a clone of an ancient member of the Skywalker family, or has been preserved in stasis for millennia. In fact she may be the 1st Skywalker to have existed, the progenitor for the whole family line.

>I'd laugh my ass of if they did do that and just reverse the roles of Caedus and Jainia though and see her die.

>EUcuck

But he said, "I can show you the ways of the force" not "I can show you the ways of the dark side".

>openly admit to being a shitposter
>pretending your opinion matters and that you don't just look like a bored retard

He had just gotten shot. Take the best boxer in the world, put a bullet in his gut, have him fight an amateur, and watch him lose.

It's amazing that he was even standing up and was able to beat Finn. Honestly, I'm more interested in why Chewie's blaster, which has been shown to generate enough force to throw men ten feet through the air, didn't complete shred Kylo Ren's internal organs.

I like this theory too. I still think she's the new chosen one but her being a cloned Skywalker would work just as well.

>autism speaks
Fine.
I guess Princess Leia's last name wasn't "Organa". It could've been something else. But it was never mentioned in the movie or shown in the credits so for all we know it could've been "Luau". Now I'll start calling her Princess Leia Luau.

>I am still sticking to my unlikely theory that Rey is somehow very old. That she is a clone of an ancient member of the Skywalker family, or has been preserved in stasis for millennia.

Rey is literally Bastila already anyway.

>british accent
>same hairstyle
>absurdly talented for her age
>arrogant
>short-tempered
>uses a staff

the force awakens is literally copy and paste with different names...

Who are you quoting?

Its pretty obvious Kylo is very flawed. He was trained by Luke as a kid but never became a Jedi. He wasn't fully trained by Snoke either. Luke is the only Jedi in the galaxy, and Snoke is implied to be the new sith master. That means there are only 2 good force users in the entire galaxy, and Kylo hasn't battled anyone who was competent in the force, he just killed younglings and muggles.

Hes also obssessed with killing Luke and become as strong as Vader. He is conflicted between the light and dark side and arrogant.

Its not that far fetched that an injured and tired Kylo can loose after he got shot and toyed with Finn. It literally took the effort of 3 people to beat him

Nobody. I'm summarizing what you said.

1. Throw in a scene where Maz Kantina uses the force at the bar. Some scum bag gives them a hard time and she uses a very basic mind trick to confuse him. Rey asks what that was and Maz jut shrugs it off or says "the force is a powerful ally" whatever.

This way when rey does the mind trick on 007 later on it's no completely forced and out of nowhere.

2. Have Kylo Ren do something foolish, let his guard down a bit or SOMETHING before Rey begins to kick his ass in the saber fight. That way it's not just Rey doing a force prayer and instantly owning him for no real reason.

That would begin to make the movie make sense just a little.

The "dark side" is half of the force, the Jedi just refer to it as the "Dark" side because they are self-righetous. The light and dark combined is the entire force. Its just a spectrum that you can only master one side but if someone wanted to they could use both sides of the force, just not the master techniques of either side

He's a gigantic pussy.

Perhaps you forget that he was shot with Chewbacca's Bowcaster 15 minutes prior

>an entire thread explaining at least 5 reasons why kylo lost
>hurr it doesn't make sense

get the fuck out the adults are talking

>adults
>star wars

>1. Throw in a scene where Maz Kantina uses the force at the bar. Some scum bag gives them a hard time and she uses a very basic mind trick to confuse him. Rey asks what that was and Maz jut shrugs it off or says "the force is a powerful ally" whatever.

I like this.

>ave Kylo Ren do something foolish, let his guard down a bit or SOMETHING before Rey begins to kick his ass in the saber fight. That way it's not just Rey doing a force prayer and instantly owning him for no real reason.

HE WAS SHOT. How is everyone forgetting this? He was walking around with a giant burnt hole in his abdomen. He kept hitting it, the camera zoomed in on it repeatedly.

youtube.com/watch?v=Lf0qZLK8l-Y

youtube.com/watch?v=rWF0f183tSA

Holy shit. And with the mindwipe, she's Revan. Was there anything original in this movie?

>untrained girl
to be fair, she had combat experience when she had to live all by herself. she's probably better than Kylo since she never had the Force until later while he had all these blaster bolt freezing space magic shit.

and Kylo was also wounded.

>Throw in a scene where Maz Kantina uses the force at the bar. Some scum bag gives them a hard time and she uses a very basic mind trick to confuse him. Rey asks what that was and Maz jut shrugs it off or says "the force is a powerful ally" whatever.

This is the only good suggestion an anti-TFA fag has ever made.

I understand he was shot. In fact if he hadn't been I wouldn't give this scene any credit. My problem isn't that he lost the fight. It's that Rey just closes her eyes and says "the force" and then starts kicking ass.

It works, but not as well as it could have if they had just made a slight change.

>tfw Rey uses Battle Meditation

it's a disney movie. You didn' think it was weird when Bell did a german suplex to The Beast right before she pegged him with the wise-cracking strap-on?

>This is the only good suggestion an anti-TFA fag has ever made.
I actually really like TFA. But that scene alway bothers me a bit.

>It's that Rey just closes her eyes

This is the only part of the fight that really bothered me. Her eyes are closed for a good 10 seconds. Why on earth does he not just end the fight right there?

>Why on earth does he not just end the fight right there?
He was trying to turn her to le dark side. "YOU NEED A TEACHER!" He thought he might convince her to go with him.

There were actually a few moments, especially one when he was fighting Finn, where he knocks him down and could have just cut him but instead turns around to regain his strength. Looked a little sloppy.

>He was trying to turn her to le dark side. "YOU NEED A TEACHER!" He thought he might convince her to go with him.

So just chop off her hand. In the Star Wars universe that's about as life-threatening as losing a tooth.

Wow. That actually would work. Especially the first one. It always bothered me that Rey got literally zero force training. She was told about it but had nothing to go on.

Luke had two films and trained with Yoda before his first battle.

What about Anakin? Did that bother you in The Phantom Menace when he used the Force for podracing without having any knowledge of the force?

Because Rey is exactly what fucking Anakin should been in the prequels. A person who is exceptionally gifted with the Force to the point that her power is visibly noticeable. All throughout those terrible, terrible movies we're told that Anakin is the most powerful Force sensitive that ever lived, but most of the time he seems exactly like any of the other Jedi. If they never told you the viewer that he was the chosen one, you would assume that he was that he was an above average, but still reasonably normal Padawan, not the goddamn savior that is supposed to singlehandedly bring balance to the Force. We're told that humans can't podrace, but we see Sebulba and know that he's pretty fucking unimpressive. Seems like a fairly arbitrary skill at best. Never do we see Anakin do ANYTHING that blows your fucking hair back and think, holy moley, this dude must be Space Jesus.

>Did that bother you in The Phantom Menace
Yes.

George would not agree.

>George
who?

In TPM Anakin was racing against a bunch of dirty podracers. His use of the force wasn't harnessed or anything, it was just his natural untrained ability and I don't recall him doing anything exceptional. It was just stated it gave him fast reflexes and whatnot.

Rey was in a duel with a trained force user and specifically called upon the force in order to win, as if she had been trained with how to utilize it.

So to compare. Rey successfully piloting the falcon in the dogfight against the tie fighters is equivalent to anakin podracing or in the space battle at the end of TPM.

Rey calling upon the force, despite having no training, and beating a trained force user who up until that point still had an advantage over her would be like if Anakin had to fight a mini Darth Maul.

Yep. The prequels just told us shit. This new movie actually shows things to us.

George Muthafuckin Lucas. The Macdaddy.

Anakin was 9.
He was the only human who could podrace.
He accidentally blew up the control ship.
I don't find Rey's abilities any more exceptional.

>He accidentally blew up the control ship.
Exactly. Like how Rey accidentally beat Kylo Ren

>piloting a fighter jet on auto pilot then accidentally shooting something critical exploding the whole thing is the same as fighting someone 1v1 with a sword

Rey apologists are such retards

It would have been sexist if he won.

I was comparing it to her piloting the Falcon. Her beating Kylo Ren is totally justified though. He was injured, his feelings distracted him, he's a pussy, and he wasn't trying to kill her.

Cause she was obviously trained in the force when she was little

Am I being b8ed? The thread is full of reasons as to why Rey beat Kylo. How dense are you?

Just because people give shitty evidence doesn't mean they're right.

What side is being referred to when people say "the dark side". I haven't watched the original or prequels in a while but I'm 99% sure someone has said "the dark side of the force".

I also remember Sheev telling Anakin in the beginning of episode III he could teach him ways of the force that the Jedi say are forbidden or something along those lines

ITT: There really is no reason why she won but we'll just say she was trained off hand yet still acts surprised that Jedi/Sith were real

Are you comparing a podrace to a lightsaber duel? Really?

You don't need the force to successfully podrace. It's said Anakin has a lot of midichlorians and is in tune with the force because of that so it help him win. He didn't actively use it though.

That's a big difference between an untrained girl summoning the force and instantly beating a trained dark jedi/sith or whatever ren is.

She doesn't remember shit about her childhood, mate

>shitty evidence
I think you're going out of your way to hate the film at this point. There are some obvious things that show that Kylo Ren was fucked up even without Rey and Finn doing anything.

>got shot by Chewie
>psychologically unstable after killing Han
>wasn't trying to kill Rey but trying to have her join him

But no, let's pretend those things never happened. :^0

You do if you're a human. HE'S THE ONLY HUMAN WHO CAN DO IT.

The prequels were too dialouge driven, and thats why people were upset, they never showed what was discussed, all the showed were the politics of the republic and Jedi. We never got to see Anakin as being the most gifted Jedi for someone his age and we didn't get to see Obi-Wan, one of the greatest Jedis to ever, battle in his prime

Or is he the only human poor, young and stupid enough to do it? Just becaue Lucas threw in that shitty plot point doesn't help your case.

Do those other aliens podracing have to use the force? Nope

All because George didn't want to leave his comfy director's chair sipping his coffee.

KYLO PUSSY LOL

Then how the fuck does she remember her training? You literally just said she doesn't remember shit.

>inb4 muh revelation

pfffft the shittiest defense in the world. I can't wait for you to use it.

>>got shot by Chewie
>>psychologically unstable after killing Han
>>wasn't trying to kill Rey but trying to have her join him

None of this explain why after beating Finn and pretty much owning Rey and practically dangling her over a cliff Rey suddenly overtakes the fight by closing her eyes and saying "the force". It's just shitty writing.

You're right, there are a fuck ton of reasons Ren lost, but how they get there doesn't utilize those reasons.

>Rey calling upon the force, despite having no training, and beating a trained force user who up until that point still had an advantage over her would be like if Anakin had to fight a mini Darth Maul.

Which would have been a nice way to demonstrate to the audience that Anakin was the fucking most powerful Force user in existence, the like of which had never been seen in history. Instead they did it through exposition. We're told Anakin is the ubermensch, but then shown that he's slightly above average.

It's not just the dialogue. It's the boring, shitty dialogue that's filmed like a fucking soap opera where everyone is sitting.

Aside from the action scenes it feels like i'm watching one of those stupid jane austin movies my mom loves

You do realize Luke used the force to guide his shot when he blew up the Death Star right? If we're gonna nitpick I would say that would be more difficult than beating a mediocre force user who was injured

Because Obi-Wan wasn't that great. He got thrashed by Dooku twice.

no different than yet you dont bitch about that

>and we didn't get to see Obi-Wan, one of the greatest Jedis to ever, battle in his prime

What are you talking about? Obi-Wan fights in every movie.

>she was trained in melee combat
Lightsabers dont habe weight on the blade. It's nothing like weilding another melee weapon. Obi wan says so in A New Hope

Luke used the force, which he had already been introduced to and somewhat trained in by Obi-Wan, to hit a target (something he was apparently already ridiculously good at). It's very different.

>You do realize Luke used the force to guide his shot when he blew up the Death Star right?

My post was talking about the lightsaber battles.

But that is a fair point. And Luke DID have training in the first film. Far more than Rey did in TFA. So it makes sense he used the force. Especially since he had a force ghost telling him to.

Rey had two non-jedi mention it to her and zero training.

see I don't bitch about it because it actually made sense.

Nice guys finish last.

As long as I get to finish on her teeth I'm fine with this.

Doku was trained by Yoda, the only people who were definitly stronger than him were Sheev and Yoda, possibly Mace. It has been argued he purpously lost to Anakin because he knew Sheev wanted to turn him and didn't know Sheev would tell Anakin to kill him. Regardless even if Anakin was stronger he still lost to Obi-Wan which means Obi-Wan made up ground by the end of the film

Didn't Obi-Wan's ghost talk to Rey too?

>HE WAS SHOT.
>fucked up by Finn

Bullshit it was such a fucking anti-climactic bitter disappointment.

JJ is a great creator but he doesn't have an ounce of testosterone in him.

How the fuck do you make a movie about space samurai and have the prodigy lose to an untrained girl ? Is this Karate kid all over again ?

In a flashback while in a basement and she was terrified and clueless. Not in the heat of battle.

And once again, she had NO training.

For like 5 mins in each movie against droids. The only epic fight was against Anakin

>Kylo Ren is the prodigy
Are you trying to be a faggot?

>Darth Maul
>Count Dooku
>Anakin
He fights in every movie.

>or like 5 mins in each movie against droids.

>duels darth maul and wins
>duels count dooku twice
>duels grievus
>duels anakin

>It has been argued he purpously lost to Anakin because he knew Sheev wanted to turn him and didn't know Sheev would tell Anakin to kill him

It's actually canon. The "official movie novelization" for Episode III (considered part of the material for the movie and therefore spared in Disney's purge) expores Dooku's thoughts during the fight. This was the plan, as he understood it.

>He gets "beaten" and captured by Anakin
>Imprisoned on Coruscant
>Palpatine's Republic "wins" the war
>While in prison, Dooku "discovers" evidence of Separatist lies, publicly shows extreme remorse for taking part in it
>meanwhile Palpatine carries out a limited version of Order 66, killing most Jedi but leaving others (basically Anakin+a few other apprentices and the younglings) to form the core of a new Sith Order

Then Anakin chopped off his hands and Dooku realized that he fucked up.

>Are you trying to be a faggot?

what are you trying to say ? I don't care what JJ retcons in the next film but this one presented Kylo as the young prodigy and the teeth girl as the nobody who never touched a saber. It makes for a fundamentally flawed movie.

>JJ
Apparently you don't care about refining your b8. JJ has nothing to do with any movie except for VII.

I BYPASSED THE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT

I find it kind of funny that Dooku believed that Palpatine would abandon the Rule of Two. But maybe that's not canon aymore so idk

Muscle memory, dude.
You may have your memories repressed, but you don't forget how to run, do you?

>Then Anakin chopped off his hands and Dooku realized that he fucked up.

kek, imagine the Curb Your Enthusiasm theme playing right after that happened.

>Rey had two non-jedi mention it to her and zero training.

Yeah, but who gives a shit? Luke had like a month's worth of improvised training in total and became a full fledged Jedi whereas the prequels dictated that in order to become even marginally competent you had to be scooped up at age 5 (Anakin was 9 and they thought he was "too old" whereas Luke was like fucking twenty something and did just fine) and trained in a temple alongside other little Jedi people with itty bitty lightsabers for your entire life. Before the prequels the Force was mysterious and guided the characters with an unseen hand. What it was was never fully explained and it was interesting that way. After the prequels it was fucking bugs in your blood and only a handful of people with enough of those bugs were able to use it and it was mapped out to the smallest detail and it fucking sucked. It wasn't magic anymore, it was just a lame thing that gave certain characters a very minor combat advantage. Yes, you can technically "win" an argument about whether or not Rey should be able to use the Force by the standards established by the god awful prequels, but who gives a shit? Those movies fucking sucked. There are plenty of problems with TFA, but Rey not sitting in a temple for 20 years learning to meditate so she could jump slightly higher was not one of those problems. The Force is mysterious, and the Force can behave in mysterious ways. If Rey is particularly attuned to the Force, there is no reason it should not be able to act through her.

>JJ has nothing to do with any movie except for VII.

wtf does this have to do with Kylo being presented as the young prodigy of the movie ?

He wasn't presented as such. Give me one example. He was presented as a whiny bitch baby.

You said
>I don't care what JJ retcons in the next film
so I corrected you on it. I'm not even the original user you're bickering with.

>Yes, you can technically "win" an argument about whether or not Rey should be able to use the Force by the standards established by the god awful prequels, but who gives a shit?

Nobody is talking about he prequels but you.

I've clearly been comparing TFA to the OT and have only mentioned how Luke was trained in both ANH and Empire whereas Rey had zero training.

Luke had slight training in ANH and was guided by Obi-Wan in destroying the Death Star.

Luke had a lot more training in Empire but still lost to Vader after directly disobeying Yoda and Obi-Wan plus Vader was in total control.

Rey beat Kylo Ren because he wasn't a fully trained Jedi or Sith and was badly injured. However she was being bested by him and the fight took a turn at the last minute simply because she remembered the think about the force and instantly kicked Kylo's ass.

That's just shitty writing.

>so I corrected you on it.

thanks for a totally useless input bruh.

>He wasn't presented as such.

oh the bad menacing guy was actually shit. that's a Shyamalan tier twist.

And what if Luke wasn't a particularly sensitive Force user? What if (ignoring the prequels and the EU and anything else), it just so happened that Luke was the worst Jedi ever? Yoda was a hell of a lot more competent than Luke in the OT. What if Yoda was just a standard Jedi? What if most Jedi could have lifted the X-Wing out of the swamp on day one? You're basing your entire understanding of the Force and how it should work off of one single person.

This.

It DOES make sense that he lost. They just could have gone about it a bit better that's all.

>totally useless
You're misinforming people with your shit b8 and got called out. Sorry you're so upset about it, "bruh".

What if Rey was the most powerfullest force user ever!? Maybe that's why she's able to say "THE FORCE" and isntantly kick ass. I gues it's just how the force wills it. BRAVO JJ!

During the whole movie it was made clear that Kylo didn't finish his training and was shown he was a novice force user.

It was definitly implied, maybe even stated, that Rey has very strong force potential in the manner that Anakin had strong force potential in episode I but he still couldn't use it. She has a greater potential to harness the force than Kylo, but at the moment Kylo is stronger.

It was also shown Rey lived in some shithole planet by herself and knew how to fight to survive. When she fought Kylo he was injured, and was not trying to kill her but take her in alive. She was then able to tap into some of her force potential and defeat a tired and injured Kylo. It took the effort of Rey, Finn, and Chewy to beat him.

Kylo didn't kill Finn when he had the chance because hes arrogant and wanted to toy with someone who was clearly weaker. When he underestimated Finn too much and got hit by Finn's saber, he stopped toying around and was going to kill him into Rey came and saved Finn. She was then able to withstand Kylo after using the force.

The battle was written lazily but its not a stretch that Rey could beat Kylo, who is just a novice.

>Rey beat Kylo Ren because he wasn't a fully trained Jedi or Sith and was badly injured.

>100% untrained in the force or swinging swords or anything battle related
VS
>Partially trained

Guys, I'm new to star wars, loved JJ stuff but you are not making it easy for me to like this movie.

Isn't it easier to just admit they could have done a bit better with that scene rather than make shit up in your mind to compensate for mediocre screenwriting?

It's like the thought of there being a flaw in TFA frightens you. And you feel a personal debt to defend it at ALL costs.

>The battle was written lazily but its not a stretch that Rey could beat Kylo, who is just a novice.

Agreed. Like I said, my problem isn't that Kylo won. I just wish they would have given us something better than Rey closing her eyes and saying "THE FORCE" before turning the battle around and kicking his ass.

I really like the movie and this is just a nitpick. But I guess pointing out even a small flaw will drive defenders of the movie insane.

>shown he was a novice force user.
fucking when? It was shown that he had anger-management problems but the first thing you see him do is freezing a blaster shot in midair, something that's never been shown in the entire series. He was definitely not a novice.

>What if Rey was the most powerfullest force user ever!

What if she is? The reason I brought up the way Anakin was handled in the prequels earlier is because that is the exact same idea handled in the worst fucking way imaginable. If your character is a messianic, nigh all powerful figure and you have an established framework for how something like the force works over six fucking movies, wouldn't an effective way to communicate that be to make the character visibly more powerful than anyone who has come before? Everyone bitches and moans about Rey being a "Mary Sue" as if Abrams and Kasden are trying to tell you that everything here is normal and Jedi were always like this and go about your business, nothing to see here. But they called their fucking movie the Force Awakens, fill it with references to there being an "awakening", and then when they show that, everybody loses their fucking shit.

I literally said not two posts ago that TFA has plenty of problems. Did you just get to this thread and only read one single post. I don't necessarily disagree that it could have been handled better, most things in life can. How would YOU have had the scene play out?

>was a novice force user.
He really wasn't though. He kept a lazer blast frozen for an entire scene, something we never even say Vader do. He was very skilled when keeping Rey completely still or dragging that captain toward him when he got pissed.

I think what makes him such a great character is that he is VERY strong with the force but also immature and a loose cannon. He needs training in order to be more stable.. and clearly a bit better in a duel.

>What if she is?
Don't respond to my rhetorical bullshit questions in which I mock you.

The Darth Maul fight took two hours to get to, it was a good fight but wasn't worth all the shit you had to sit through to get to it.

His fight in episode two against Dooku was shit too, he and Anakin were squashed. The other battle was against droids and cgi monsters.

In episode III he jobs to Dooku again in like 2 seconds. He battles Grievous but it wasn't an epic battle, it was ok.

The only epic fight was against Anakin, and that was his last hoorah until episode IV.

So he had two good fights, one of which was in his prime. Maybe the other fights sucked because they were all cgi

The novel straight-up said Ren was fucking around and not taking the fight seriously until Finn got a lucky hit in, then he got serious and whooped his ass.

Why are you talking about how shitty the fights were? WE KNOW they were shitty. But you said they didn't happen. They did. They were also shit.

So by "he didn't fight" you actually mean "there weren't any fights that I liked" ?

Nice retard logic.

>I think what makes him such a great character is that he is VERY strong with the force but also immature and a loose cannon.

This guys gets it.

But anyway how badly that scene was handled ruins the movie for me.

The novel (which is canon) has Kylo say "It IS you", as well as the video game. The movie is the only medium in which this line didn't show up.

But what's more telling is Kylo's fear about not being as strong as Darth Vader. Luke had that same fear in the cave on Dagobah. Why bring this up in the plot if he'll never face his fear? It got brought up because he's facing Rey, who is Vader.

Furthermore, why was this fear the first and only thing Rey was able to read about Kylo? He was clearly thinking about it when mindraping Rey was starting to backfire. It's one thing to think "I'm not as strong as a girl...!" but why bring Vader into it? He knows who she is. The lightsaber knows who she is. Luke knows who she is. There's too much evidence to call this a retarded theory. It'd be retarded if this ISN'T where the trilogy was going.

Chewie shot him in the dick.

Go to bed, Max. Your opinions are stupid and so is your hair.

Doesn't Anakin speak to her briefly during the lightsaber vision. If she is his reincarnation, how did that happen?

You can't have force ghosts and reincarnaton. Not to mention that literally nothing else in the entire Star Wars extended universe has ever implied that reincarnation exists, nor in any of the other Disney stuff released since. Making Rey be the reincarnation of Vader would be a midichlorians-tier level of fuck up.

No, she just hears him breathing and a brief glimpse of the Cloud City fight.

Isn't it canon that Anakin was the result of Sheev and Plagueis force splooging into space and it forming an immaculate conception? If Anakin himsef began as pure energy, why couldn't that energy take form again?

When we say she's Anakin reincarnated, she's not LITERALLY Anakin. Anakin the person is still dead and is a force ghost. She is the new chosen one is all we mean.

The film made a great effort to show Kylo wasn't a prodigy. Before the movie came out everyone just assumed he was powerful based off the trailers and association with characters in the other movie. Nowhere in the movie is it stated he was a prodigy.

The movie makes clear he never became a Jedi, he only trained with Luke. It is also stated at least once he didn't finish his training with Snoke. It is also shown he is conflicted between which side of the force to be on. It is also shown that he isn't a powerful force user when he is interogating Rey and shes able to get in his head using the force and she tells him he will never be as powerful as Vader.

Kylo is shown to be pretty weak in the movie actually, compared to all the other force users in previous films

this, you could erase my memory of being able to ride a bike, i'll still be able to do it if someone forces me to ride one

Exactly. That's what happened. People are taking the reincarnation thing too literally.

>You can't have force ghosts and reincarnaton.
Why not? One of the first books in the old canon had Obi-Wan's ghost "disappear into the force", so they could cease to exist. They could come to make whatever bullshit up that they wanted.

Some interesting shit to me is the prologue in the novel:
>"First comes the day
>Then comes the night.
>After the darkness
>Shines through the light.
>The difference, they say,
>Is only made right
>By the resolving of gray
>Through refined Jedi sight."
>―Journal of the Whills, 7:477

This, plus all that gray jedi shit being a big thing in that Rebels cartoon. The whole thing is saying there needs to be balance in the force. But Anakin was supposed to be the one to do that, so it's plausible that he's "stuck" in the galaxy until he does it.

>It is also shown that he isn't a powerful force user when he is interogating Rey and shes able to get in his head using the force and she tells him he will never be as powerful as Vader.
Doesn't mean shit since Rey is the most powerful force user to ever exist according to the movie.

>It is also shown that he isn't a powerful force user when he is interrogating Rey
Whoa there, that's bullshit. He's plenty strong in the force. She's just stronger.
>She's strong with the force! Untrained, but stronger than she knows!
He's shitty at lightsaber dueling though, I'll give you that.

The scene where he was using the force to interogate Rey and she was able to turn on him to get in his head and she told him he will never be as strong as Vader. Kylo also spent the whole movie doubting his commitment to the dark side, he wasn't that strong.

>The film made a great effort to show Kylo wasn't a prodigy
>Kylo is shown to be pretty weak in the movie actually

youtube.com/watch?v=802uDCTIopo

In the novel, which is canon, Snoke says he's a prodigy made of the dark and the light, a perfect balance, stronger than any apprentice he's ever had.

>She's just stronger
>a hillbilly from a backwater planet that doesn't remember anything from the past
>is stronger than a guy that uses it every day

What will Rey fags say next!

That doesn't show Ren to be a novice force user, it shows Rey to be abnormally powerful. Also Ren doubting his commitment to one side or the other doesn't make him less powerful. That's a moral/spiritual conflict. Now a power struggle.

Movie does something new with the force. HE ID OTTOMATAKLY DA MOWST PAWURFULL!

that's literally the definition of a prodigy.

No dipshit, there weren't any fights outside the one with Anakin that portrayed him as one of the greatest Jedi to ever live. In fact, there were two fights with Dooku that showed the opposite, there was one fight with Maul where he hasn't hit his prime yet, and the rest are against droids and dinosaur like creatures.

Well if you refer to the prequels using the force and training doesn't matter. All that matters is your Midi-chlorian count.

Just because we haven't seen it done on screen before doesn't mean it's at all out of the ordinary nor does it mean it takes a lot of skill.

>Luke is stronger than Vader
>A hillbilly from a backwater planet that doesn't have more than a few years of formal training
>Is stronger than a guy who uses it every day and is also space jesus
It's not a pro-Rey thing, this is just what Star Wars has always been about.

>we didn't get to see Obi-Wan, one of the greatest Jedis to ever, battle in his prime

>there weren't any fights outside the one with Anakin that portrayed him as one of the greatest Jedi to ever live.

Nice backtracking. Neither me or the other user would have responded if you just said you didn't think the fights displayed obi-wan as strong. You literally said he didn't fight.

It doesn't mean it's easy to do, either. So this whole "Ren is weak" thing doesn't really work.

You're wrong. Darth Vader had many more Midi-chlorians than Luke did.

:^)

It does when we've seen heaps of force-users fighting and in situations where such a power would be useful, yet never seen it been used before.

Unless its stated thats a powerful move I don't interpret it as something past force users couldn't do. All it shows is that the sfx are better than they were in previous movies and the writers have a little more imagination

If you payed attention to movie you would realize even though he took a bolt caster blast to the abdomen he was mostly weaken by killing Han Solo.

Who is Snoke though? He isn't as powerful as Sheev, if he was he would of overthrew him, and he wasn't powerful enough to kill Luke. Hes just some guy who stepped up after the old regime was taken down, he hasn't proven anything yet

A jedi that survived order 66 only to be nearly killed by Darth Vader later but barely survived.

I'm not backtracking, follow the trial of responses to my original post and I clearly state those conditions

My guess is that he's some character that will connect this saga to the Old Republic stuff later down the line.

Basically just a brah

I'm going by the post where you said.

>we didn't get to see Obi-Wan, one of the greatest Jedis to ever, battle in his prime

Then me and the other dude pointed out how wrong you were. Case closed.

So hes a former mid-upper mid-tier jedi who turned to the dark side. Has he been trained by the Sith previously? If not he isn't reliable

Seems to me we agree then

Novel says its because he killed his father.

>Have Kylo Ren do something foolish, let his guard down a bit or SOMETHING before Rey begins to kick his ass in the saber fight. That way it's not just Rey doing a force prayer and instantly owning him for no real reason.
She should have used the force to hit him in the side with a rock or at least kicked his weak point or something. As it was he just randomly turned into a bitch and got bowled over despite throwing her into a tree earlier.

Yeah, even that would have been better than what ended up happening. Just SOMETHING other than Rey saying "THE FORCE" and instantly kicking his ass.

Kylo probably has NO combat experience at all. He's got very little training from Luke (who only ever got one brief lightsaber lesson and not in technique), and Snoke hasn't trained him yet. He's gotten by so far on looking intimidating and having Stormtroopers do his dirty work for him.

Because he was a whiny brat playing dress up.

What it really is is Ren being a tryhard.

The reason other force users don't stop blaster bolts in midair is that it serves no purpose. Vader would just deflect it. He doesn't have to impress anyone.

that's bullshit. The force is everything, it is life, it is creation. The dark side is a corruption of the force, it only brings death.

>injured
>injured
>injured
>injured
>injured
>Injury

how much longer are we going to be pretend this wasn't the blander of the century ?

>blander

>>>>>>>>>>>>Jew Wars
Do you fucking faggots still unironically discuss this crap?

being injured and her being written that way.

The last good SW movie was made in 1983.

People waited 33 years for a villain who... couldn't fight because of a scratch.

The force was strong in that one.

Also Kylo is not the greatest Lightsaber fighter ever.

>Also Kylo is not the greatest Lightsaber fighter ever.
no fucking shit

>Kylo is not the greatest Lightsaber fighter ever.

The "Kylo was not so good anyway" excuse ruins the whole movie though.

The movie relies throughout on him being the tip of the spear for the bad guys.

It's a fundamental flaw of the movie, not just bad writing since the main villain does not get a real fight.

The movie was so anticlimactic it gave me blue balls.

>Return of the Jedi was a good movie
Good one user

earlier in the movie he froze Rey and knocked her out. Why didn't he just do that again

mary sue

And being able to stop blaster bolts mid air, that shits just cool.

It's duality their has to be balance

No one in Disney's "Star Wars" appears to be trained how to use a lightsabre. I'm confident I could put Adam Driver, Daisy Ridley or John Boyega down in under 5 minutes. After all the training/rehearsing Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson & Hayden Christensen were afforded by fight coordinator Nick Gillard [and the talent of Ray Park selling every stroke] I doubt I'd last a minute against any of them. Even Ian McDiarmid, at his age, could put those Disney punks down!

>>the movie shows that Rey is trained in melee combat and can defend herself pretty well

You guys need to stop saying this shit. A staff is NOTHING like a saber. Being trained in melee combat, as if that makes you a fucking weapons expert like some JRPG class, is retarded

Wrong again. Obi Wan will come back, this time as a Sith

Kylo Ren feels entitled to his power because of his relation to Vader, like Luke in Empire he's high on his own talent and has no concept of anyone stronger than him.

KYLO IS FUCKING SHIT TIER

REY A CUTE

extremely underrated post

Rey is a palpatine

Adam Driver is so fucking ugly. How did he get to play such an important role? He must be a jew.

well the point of this move is that patriarchy is white, weak, male and ugly - and that it always loses to power of girly friendship

He probably didn't stay in school and learn the difference between 'lost' and 'lose'.

Fuck, millennials are DUMB.

Untrained?
She is trained with Melee Weapons because she lived all her live in a fucking Outback.
And Kyle is not a fully trained Sith, he is good with the Force, but that doesn't mean he is also good with the light saber so he lost in a light saber battle.

He was with Luke for probably near a decade. I'm sure he learned how to fight. He's not twirling his saber around like an amateur and it's canon that he's gone around with the Knights of Ren fucking people up. That was the whole vision Rey had of him. They wiped out a village of combatants.

He also supposedly fought Luke's students who, according to a recent leak, were all "late adolescents" and were all armed based on the fact that there were multiple lightsaber props. So they weren't unarmed little kids.

Because Kylo is beta bitch who hates his parents and has an unhealthy obsession about his grandfather old war storys

We shoulod conduct an social experiment. First we will pay for two months of sword-fighting lessons for OP. Then after those are over we shoot a hole through his stomach with a gun.
And then immediately afterwards he has to defeat a untrained woman, but he isn't allowed to make any moves that would kill her and instead has to capture her alive. Naturally no such restrictions are placed on the woman.
From the results of this experiment we may finally find the answer to this endless debate.

yeah figthing some thiefs with a stick is the same that fighting a trained lightsaber duelist, trained by Luke Skywalker

>How did he lost