How does a Christian logically and adequately respond to the Epicurean paradox?

It's almost as if you haven't even looked at the picture.

Yes because Adam cursed us. If you haven't noticed, every evil thing in the world happens because of men. We do evil things. God does nothing but let us act out our desires. And some people have the desire to kill, or rape, or steal. Of course they will die in their folly eventually. But evil is caused by men. And before you ask "Why would God allow evil?", why do YOU allow evil? Why don't you do something about it? Take some responsibility for the human race.

"we" didn't choose...
Even if, and it's a pretty big if, a creature such as Adam existed, and he did something he shouldn't - I'd think his sin was his, and his alone. Can't blame his offspring for his blunder.

Also, since god (of the bible) is supposed to be all knowing... he'd have created an Adam that wouldn't disobey.

Punishing literally all of humanity for thousands of years for the actions of 2? That's a pretty fucked sense of righteousness

No, I still think the question "why would god allow evil" is pertinent here.

The Paradox is on a false set of assumptions.
The End.

>Reminder that omnipotence and free will literally cannot exist in the same universe.

the search for proof must begin with analyses and observation
yes
we lack evidence and cannot rule out anything, even the logically absurd, injecting emotion and investing ego into arguments is asinine for anyone
>you cannot observe source/God/
Exactly.
we have no clue to what our origins are, so we must be patient and not jump to premature conclusions, in both religion/philosophy and science

Oooo that was easy, now to cure cancer.

Nah, this is the Epicurean paradox thread.

I will leave that to the cancer researchers. I was answering the question posed here. The answer is that the presuppositions are incorrect. Thus the whole discussion is bait.

meme picture isn't an argument. how is it free will with no choice?

>Christian
>logically
Pick one.
Religions are fairytales

The problem with Epicurus is two fold:
(1) it assumes that God is all powerful; and,
(2) it assumes that God is all knowing.

What if he isn't? What if his "states of being" fluctuate between all knowing, and knowing nothing; and all powerful and powerlessness?

Not much of a god, but it is what it is.

The religious aren't to keen on logic, and they don't value evidence.
You can't argue with the religious - you can step back and avoid, it's the best thing to do.

If yahweh isn't all knowing or all powerful, why call him god?

Kill himself. Checks out both the logical and adequate conditions

There is plenty of free will.
It's just there's no gods.
There's just us.

He is that which created us.
The engineer who created a world, evolved us out, and grew a world from the stardust.
To move us from animals to something greater.
As we are burdened with our own evolution.
The movement from the Garden, the act of eating the apple, evolution Bruh.
That which was harmony became humanity when we moved forward to something more.

I see, so god is not all-knowing, good, or all powerful?
Despite what the bible says?

and it requires you to know what or if there is a greater good.

No gods needed for that.

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He's to busy sucking cosmic cock to c are about your pathetic life.

If God exists then as a finite being you are unable to adequately say whether his actions are truly good or bad as you do not have the same perspective he has.

>You are not qualified to comment on the morality of God's "actions" as a created being.

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>evolved us
According to the bible trilogy, man didn't evolve from anything.

Adam chose, and after he gained the knowledge of good and evil, he passed it down to his children, and they did to theirs, and so on. How did you learn what was the right thing to do? Your parents told you. We aren't at fault for what he did, but since we know what is right and what is wrong, we can choose to do evil. Or we can do good. We will not be blamed for his sin, but we will be held accountable for what we have done, whether it be good or evil.
God wouldn't make an Adam that wouldn't disobey because then he would be a robot with no free will. God didn't want something that would obey and praise him 24/7 just because it was made that way. He has angels for that. That's what I said already, he wanted a creation that would obey him by CHOICE.

If he's all knowing, then he wouldn't have opinions on things. Opinions come from a lack of complete understanding

I think the problem with the gods is they were invented by people, and primitive people at that.
It's the first attempt at making sense of the world - so it clings a bit.
We've long outgrown this superstition, though some seem to hang on to a dogma (or dogmas) that require you hate those who don't believe. Much stife in the world because of religion.

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No matter how you spin it, god created evil and sin, knew that adam and eve were gonna eat the apple, and still went along with it. Therefore, he damned all of humanity with sin. His actions lead us here. God can't be all-good

An omniscient omnipotent all-caring being is responsible for my existence, but I'm the one who's supposed to clean up his mess and take responsibility for the evil actions of literally millions of his other creations?
Is God fucking black, too?

by doing an internet search.

By choice, or else.
Hellfire, damnation, pain and suffering for ever and ever and ever.

...but he loves you.
yeah, that's not a sadistic relationship at all.

Not an apple - it's known only as "the fruit".

And trans

>"I can't actually refute this, so I'll give a bullshit, useless statement so that I can have the last laugh"

Who wouldn't be turned on by hellfire and damnation?

Year, the religious aren't too keen on general knowledge of anything other than whatever texts they adhere to.

Too much knowledge will free you of the dogma and set you free of supersition. Can't have that.

More likely a pomegranate, actually.

Ik, but it's become apple. Although I think theres some texts hinting that it was a persimmon

The question was "Why call him God?" ;)

So you are a perfect man then? You do nothing wrong ever? You follow the morals of your clan or society, or maybe the laws of your nation, all the time? What aren't you understanding that you are responsible for you? You just sound like a whiner.
Did Jesus say you will go to hell and suffer pain forever and ever? or did your local pastor scare you with that?

The error in your logic comes at the consideration of free will. Yes God could stop all evil. However the vast majority of evil is purpatrated by humans. To stop evil would be to stop free will. If your paradox can be re written to include this i would be interested to see it.

Agreed, he doesn't need opinions because he knows everything.

If He's truly all powerful, then he shouldn't need to even act.

>He created this entire universe
>everything you and I know of, from atoms to supernovae he made that shit, supposedly just speaking it into existence.
>you and I are insignificant in the context of this universe, then who are we to an "all powerful" God?
>God doesn't have to give two fucks about us

He doesn't need opinions or actions because he should be able to do what he wants with literally no restraint.

He doesn't need to be the human definition of "all-good" because he defines what "all-good" is in the universe he created.

Didn't god create the universe? Wouldn't that include him creating evil?
Not to mention the fact that greed, envy, wrath, etc had to exist in heaven for Lucifer to revolt

The act of being Taken to the Garden, and moved forward via the apple and Eve's taking of the Apple, that being the change into biblical era human as understood. The awakening to the terrible truth of the human mind. Unless you want to get into older writing on the subject where you bring in the split from clay, Adam/Lilith, the Divorce, Eve as 2nd Bride of Adam, and the Garden as Mystical Fantasy Land.

Not even christian, but the answer is obvious. "Evil" doesn't exist. All morality is manmade and relative, which isn't a concern for any deity.

The test us box is where you go wrong. If we were put in heaven or hell before we actually lived, that would be quite unfair. He might know, but it gives you plausible deniability at least in your own mind that you would've lived properly, had you been given the chance.

Sounds like you're trying to say things like the creation of suffering was "good"

That's true. There is only "Sin" and it is that which perverts and subverts the gift of life.
Thus the goal is not to avoid evil, but to avoid being "Yoked To Sin"
We are meant to turn Earth into Paradise. To mirror Heaven here on Earth. We have been led astray so many times.
The goal is to be joyous people, as a people, with mutual benefit and care as per the Good Samaritan.

None of that relates to evolution

See, we have a problem with the basics of this entire thing; I'm not religious.
I'm not superstitious.
There may have been a carpenter in olden times who had a bit of a following etc. but he was just a human being. Whatever he may or may not have said, would just be the musings of a human man from a bygone era.

But to answer, no, no pastors in my life, I'm not religious and never really was - I don't need superstition in order to make sense of the world around me.
Also, to comment on your answer to that other user, there are no perfect people - there's just us. Fallible, still primitive in many ways, but we're doing rather well, considering it's just 200 thousand years ago we began to become recognisably human. We've come far.

>We are meant to turn Earth into Paradise
that's quite the claim. wheres your evidence?

The more time passes, the less involved this god becomes - it's almost as if he's not there at all.
*cough*

You've changed your argument. You said I'm responsible for the evil in the world, but that's irrelevant.
The question was not how to stop evil, but why a God who is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving would allow evil to exist at all?
He was well aware Eve would sin. He allowed the circumstances for such to occur. Meaning he had every intention of "punishing" man.
If he was unaware of this potential treachery via Satan, then he isn't all knowing.
If he was aware, but still allowed it to happen, he isn't all caring.
If he was aware, but couldn't stop it, he isn't all powerful.

That was part of the point of the second part. That the story of being within the Garden is to dwell as one with Nature, not removed from it as per our human selves and sapient/sentient state. The Tree of Knowledge was the act of evolving from the state of not knowing, to knowing.
Of having to learn to farm.
Of having to change from how we were to closer to how we are.

How would you know? Did god tell you this, and didn't tell me?

"Perfect" is a translation error.
The original word was "Complete"
Thus God is a "Whole Being"
Not "Flawless"

There is no afterlife retards

Nah, i'm an agnostic(atheists are just christcucks) and god is literally an asshole everywhere in the bible.
He flooded the world and made rainbows so he would remember not to do it again.
>Schizophrenic/10

You have no idea what the thread is about, do you?

>The world was without evil until Adam brought it upon us with his decision.
You need to read your bible son.

Why do mortals think divinity can be accused for the things the blind creatures do? Take some responsibility for yourselves, children.

It's not a matter of accusations, it's a matter of there being no gods at all.
And therefore, yes, personal responsibility is a must.

Oh how excellent it is to have your platitudes from your throne on high delivered to my screen. You make me want to puke.
From what it says in Genesis, Adam hid himself from God because he was ashamed and scared after disobeying God, and God couldn't find him in the garden until Adam revealed himself. So it sounds like in that moment, he either wasn't all knowing, or restricted that power from himself, or something. But what does that matter at all? The fact is he is still our God, no matter if he knows all or not. I never understood what the point of this stupid argument is. It's supposed to be some kind of "GOTCHA!" moment for ayythiests. Who cares? Doesn't change the fact that God still exists.

We were created and placed even with the Garden to keep it and tend it.
God owns this world. Leviticus, Job, and even how we are taught to pray.
We are meant to tend the Earth as it is the Lord's world.
We are given the gift of life, and the gift of this world. We are meant to cherish it.

Because we have free will; we have the option to do evil. Without it we wouldnt truely love God, we’d be puppets. Also, the whole idea of god is a paradox. You just chose to believe it or not.

"Suffering" is a subjective term. You and I don't and can't know what that temporary "suffering" will produce in the end.

An all knowing, all good, all powerful God would know, and would use temporary human "suffering" to work a better good come from it.

As a finite being, trying to understand and conceptualize an infinite being (however theoretical) and its actions is an exercise in futility.

>you can't understand God because you are not God.
>To understand God makes him no longer God.

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Because they are immature. They work a 9 to 5 and then indulge themselves in alcohol and drugs and sex and then wonder why their lives are not fantastical and supernatural, and they conclude there is no God because they are boring people.

Have you considered that the treatment of the story of the Garden is a mistranslated and botched attempt to tell the shame of man when he became self-aware?
Thus Adam looked to Eve, and understood the bounty of her body, and what he wanted.
He was hiding from his own future, his own self, and his needs. From the beginning the first Sin of Adam was his weakness.

Throne? I don't think you're reading what I'm saying. But you really want to dislike me for not thinking like you. It's okay, I have a few religious people in my family, we don't talk much either, so I'm used to the believers to shun me.

Prove free will exists.

>Because we have free will; we have the option to do evil. Without it we wouldnt truely love God, we’d be puppets.

none of this follows and none of it is proven

Where's the garden though? You're making strong claims with 0 evidence

Of course it is.
There is no god here.

I personally don't believe in an all powerful god. for me "god" is the sense of belonging, and acceptance and understanding a community of like-minded people give ( aka church ); it is the feeling of being loved; it is seeing beauty in the small details. "god" is much more an internal fortitude and optimism to face every day and every challenge with a smile because you know you'll be ok

Wow, snap judgements. Not at all biased.
Also amazing you know how everyone else things and feels. You must be magic.

Yes.
He isn't. In the original sense.
God isn't.

>He
Prove god is a man.

The Garden is a metaphor for the ignorance of not knowing what it means to be human.
It was not a physical place. It is a metaphor for a moment in time.

You are just playing devil's advocate. What you say contributes nothing and wastes both our brainpower. You are a troll.

Prove that it doesn't?

Prove you are a man.

Christian God is 'a jealous god' and 'Thou shalt not have any other gods before me'

Bible confirms God is beta and that other gods exist

Animals feel pain. Animals that we are meant to kill and eat. Why do they have to feel pain? Why can't everything be like fish and just not feel pain?

There's no logical reason to create suffering.
>inb4 "muh god is beyond logic" and other fairy tale bullshit

Off by one.
Like your post. A smidge late to the party.

Ah, it's a metaphor now.
I wonder what other amazing creature of myth will become just a metaphor, or a symbol, or an abstraction next.

>Because we have free will
See
This goes for all you dogma faggots, atheists and theists alike.

Well, if omnipotence exists, free will can't. Go ahead christcuck, try and explain that away with yahweh's magic

Indeed, there we agree!
God isn't.

So god wanted us to stay ignorant?

The jealousy of God is in relation to both his erotic heart, his emotional vibrancy, and that he was contending with Dark Gods of the era.
There was this wild dark God who wanted men to fornicate in the street. Gay sex orgies in the street. God pointed at that, "Don't do that."
And what did people do when they stopped chasing after a deity that was meant to provide a counter to that?
Gay sex orgies in the streets.

>he made us because he wanted a creation that would willingly serve him
this isnt benevolence - this is narcissism

I can't but that doesn't mean you assume it to be true.
You can't see invisible men by their very definition and thus can't prove they exist or don't exist so assuming either is true is just that, an assumption.
See above.

>Adam cursed us
no, he didnt
argument dismantled

Ah, everyone else are dogma faggots.
What are you then? Outside it all?
The rare loner?

I can hear your fedora tip and your attempt to sound smart.

You really can't read at all, nor connect any conversation to any individual here.
I'm not religious at all.

No. The story is told as it is to attempt to reinforce control over women by laying an original sin on them. It's a bungled presentation of the evolution of people, and what it means to chase God.
The Garden was our last "Safe Space"

>Not much of a god
>lets worship anyway
wow, u dodged that bullet like neo from matrix
your knees r bleeding, though. Or maybe its feet.
Get it?

I believe in what I can see.
Not a lot of gods, any at all actually.

Thank you.

>He is that which created us
>we are burdened with our own evolution
so which is it?

>completely missed the point

So where in the bible does it explain the garden as a metaphor?

>Ah, everyone else are dogma faggots.
Wrong, dogma faggots are dogma faggots. I, by no means, imply superiority or inferiority one way or the other.
>What are you then?
No-one is ever just one thing. Precision of language please.
>Outside it all?
By "outside" and "all" you mean what exactly?
>The rare loner?
I am lonely, whether or not that is rare is not for me to say because i have no comparison.

>you are unable to adequately say whether his actions are truly good or bad
so whats the reason to grant him the benefit of the doubt hes good at all, u fuck?
in other words: why worship it, then, let alone why think its real to begin with

You can't connect the dots in the conversation.
You say I miss the point?
You called me a "christcuck" showing you have no clue who you were talking to.

>I believe in what I can see.
So you do not believe in microwaves, atoms or gravity?
>I believe
Belief is dogmatic.

still irrelevant - gods moral obligation is to stop evil, whether i chose it, or not. I can stop a robbery, or help poor out. What did god do? R u gonna credit god for making a man poor? "He made u" - so he made me poor, right? And evil. He made me to be hit by tsunami, yeah?

Not saying God is "beyond logic," just saying that no matter what he does, you and I may not always understand it as finite beings.

In comparison to animals humans are not "infinite," but have a higher level of intelligence than simply feeding and fucking (well, some of us more than others).

A cow could not understand why I would temporarily hurt it while injecting it with antibiotics as they cannot conceptualize modern medicine.

A sheep cannot comprehend why I would temporarily induce suffering and shear its wool because it has no understanding of overheating or parasitic insects.

Very poor analogies, but my point stands. An all-powerful God does not need finite, human justification for his actions, if he acts at all.

Again,
>you can't understand God because you are not God.
>To understand God makes him no longer God.

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Heres the simple answer: If Christians are wrong, then why are the Elite okay with every faith out there? Why do the Secret Societies, Talmudic Pharisees & the oligarchical Elite want to get rid of THE LORD JESUS CHRIST'S name?

Biblical/personal bias answer: Acts 2:17 THE LORD shewed me visions of these vary days when I was only 5 years old. I'm 26 now & all of what I saw in those visions have come to pass.

You don't need to believe me. Its your choice, that's "free will" for you.

My question to you: If there is no GOD, what justifies morality? What is the point to prevent rape, murder or any form of slavery?

Without Christianity, all of these things would be as prevalent or worse than it was during the height of the Roman Empire.

im pretty sure most of us here agree god is trash aids bullshit coronavirus ebola retardation. WE r just frying the delusional dumbassess feet by holding them to their standards

dont change the subject

There is no god just the misunderstanding of people and the want to believe there is a god. God is like someone above said this sense of belonging it's more of an idea of the collective of life. That is what god is not a being or entity its the collection of life and all that exists in our world and universe. Any christian who believes otherwise is following the road of the false prophets.

You're making arguments based off fantasy and the ignorance of an "all knowing being"
Assuming we're talking about yahweh, we are considered his children. Children whom he granted sin, disease, suffering, and death to

whoever knows about evil happening is responsible to act to stop it, if they wanna be good

I see the effect of microwaves and related phenomena. Hot food, music on the radio, radar images and such.
I think atoms are plausible, but I've never seen one, well, unless you count the super microscopes taking pictures of atoms in various arrangements.
Gravity I can feel, if I let go of something, it falls in the same direction (from my point of view) every time.

not what I'm trying to justify, personal belief is just that, personal.

The OP's question was to the effect of "If God is all powerful and all good, why does suffering exist?"

The fallacy is that
>if God is all powerful and created us with that power
Then
>as a finite being, you and I could never understand the purpose or morality of an infinite being's actions.

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>Irrelevant to the thread
>No true Scotsman's
That's dubs for retardation

this is sophistry

evil exists. Its a negative outcome of actions in social context

>That's true. There is only "Sin"
this is absolutely backwards

It won't work.
They will not change their minds because of what anyone else tells them. No matter how much evidence is brought before them.
Change comes from within.

my query is still applicable and u still didnt answer it.

This is your personal belief. If you choose to believe that God is uninvolved in his created universe, that's fine but my point still stands.

An infinite being's actions are unable to be completely understood or assigned an objective moral value from a finite position.

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>Change comes from within.
im pretty sure lobotomy or removal of an entire hemisphere is coming from without

Your statement was inaccurate. Your own beliefs, misrepresented. Someone will trap you one day if you don't clarify.
>I see the effect
You assume the cause, just like religions. Dogmatic. Unless YOU can prove YOURSELF the cause of these things you are assuming. Whether that's good or bad is subjective but to hold someone else to different standards is literally what the theists do.

so why worship it and expect it to grant salvation, or just an afterlife?

>evil exists
Prove it.
>Its a negative outcome of actions in social context
Try again

This is a false delima fallacy. It is giving only two outcomes that God isn't God by being omnipotent or powerful.

The reason evil exists is because Satan likened himself to God because he was the greatest of the angels. He was prideful that he could take God's place. However, a being of creation can never be as omnipotent as the creator and thus Satan having free will and almost complete knowledge of God and the Universe rebelled anyway against him and was sent to hell after losing to him because he could never be as omnipotent as God. God was permissible to Lucifers evil because if he did not have free will like the other angels they do not love god because love is an act of the will to be personally charitable to another person. If the angels did their duty without free will then they act submissively out of fear and punishment which is not love.

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>An infinite being's actions are unable to be completely understood or assigned an objective moral value
Take your own advice.

But wouldn't an infinite being know that written media is a terrible way to spread their gospel? Interpretation has been an issue since religion existed

I don't think god is uninvolved, I think god is non-existent.
You may wax poetical about how vast and amazing this creature should be, and how little we can understand its nature, still doesn't make it real.

The argument is aimed at the monotheistic religions, who all seem to compete about how amazingly perfect their gods are - until questioned about in what specific ways their gods are great, then the argument devolves into ineffability and mysterious ways.
Often ending with "we can not hope to even beging to understand..." etc.

Gods are smart constructs, made to cower superstitious people.

I didn't take a good look at OP's image, but he's right.
Christians only have sins and blessings. Nothing that comes after good deeds

Free will

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You are logically inconsistent.

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The entire argument is based on fantasy. There is no concrete proof any God actually exists, making the Epicurean Paradox a theoretical exercise.

My point is that, as (a theoretical) God's created children, we are in no place to understand, let alone judge, if his actions fall in line with our finite sense of justice and morality.

>Created, finite humans cannot assign moral value to an infinite, all powerful creator's actions as they do not and cannot fully understand the ends or the means.

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Free will and omnipotence cannot exist in the same universe.

>You assume the cause, just like religions. Dogmatic. Unless YOU can prove YOURSELF
not only is it unreasonable to expect every1 to rediscover everything humanity has collectively discovered so far, until any of it can be believed to be a most probable explanation, its also wrong he didnt do it - he uses the microwave. U think what is it microwave works on? How is it i can microwave a grape, heat it up and have plasma, while i cant do it to fruit flies? Its as if all those effects r explained by microwave radiation that can be reliably reproduced by building the apparatus to spec and cant be just flunk with doing sth different, or not have it happened, when retested

Prove it exists

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Ah well, I'm clearly not as evolved as you.
I'm just one of the two dogmatic groups which are targets of your scorn.

by definition
i dont have to. U lost.

If you know it's an argument of fantasy then you must know how dumb it is to defend it, right? The idea of a god is the oldest fantasy, and still without concrete proof

Not him but I just explained it.

Christians are dishonest people who refuse to question the dogma and prefer comforting lies over sobering truths. They'll all be laughed now but moreso in future the same way we laugh at all of man's early religions.

if u cant judge god, u cant say hes good and if hes not good, u dont have a reason to worship it. If its so unknown, u dont even have a reason to believe its real, as its indistinguishable from non-existence

rephrase this

>false delima fallacy. It is giving only two outcomes that God isn't God by being omnipotent or powerful
define god

This assumes things about omnipotence. Asking for good to exist without evil is like asking for light to exist without shadow. Sure, it could be done, but humans wouldnt exist once God did it. Be grateful for his mercy and hope we'll live out the potential good God sees in us.

This is how they do it.
God is good not because he prevents evil, but because he is God. Goodness is literally defined as 'whatever God wants and does'. So it God allows evil, then it is good for there to be evil.

I bet you never read thoroughly in catachism and apologetics, if any at all.

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Replying to: "Thats true, there is only Sin"

>not only is it unreasonable to expect every1 to rediscover everything humanity has collectively discovered
This is not my point. My point is, it is dogmatic to BELIEVE everyone got it right.
>U think what is it microwave works on?
I do not use microwaves. If i did i wouldn't assume anything.
E.g a man comes up to me, a stranger in a big wizards haIts as if all those effects r explained by microwave radiation
My point isn't that it is or is not the cause. See above.

Your query is:
>why give a theoretical all-powerful, all knowing, all good God the benefit off the doubt that his actions are truly good or bad?

Answer: you do not have to. It is up to personal choice whether you believe in a good God, an all powerful God, an all-good, all-powerful God, or any God at all.

I'm explaining that I am not trying to justify a belief in a God, I am trying to explain that humans are unqualified to comment on a God's actions because of their finite nature.

Fundamentally, you are posing a query to a different question to which I am providing an answer.

Am I missing anything else?

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>Asking for good to exist without evil is like asking for light to exist without shadow.
not it's not. if he created everything, he created evil
> Be grateful for his mercy and hope we'll live out the potential good God sees in us.
Actual cuck

>I'm just one of the two dogmatic groups which are targets of your scorn.
>scorn
Nope.

We all have free will, if somebody is going to kill u he will. God just watches (if exists)

>i dont have to.
This man deserves a cookie. /thread
Nope, you expressed an unverifiable opinion based on assumptions.

belief is not a choice, truth isnt a matter of belief. U can stop strawmanning me
u r justifying belief in god.

>We all have free will
Implying fate doesn't exist

>belief is not a choice

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Where's your proof of fate?

your 1st reality check? Go cash it in, sport

I respect your belief and am not attempting to convert you. I'm smarter than to proselytize on Cred Forums.

I'm providing an explanation to the Epicurean Paradox: that as finite beings we are inherently unqualified to comment on an (theoretically) infinite God's actions.

At the end of the day, nothing I say will change your beliefs. But, if you choose to believe God is nonexistent, why participate in the discussion?

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>Where's your proof of free will?
I'll make an example of fate being implied but that's the best i can do, give me a sec. I'm jumping in and out of a game.

You bracket people as dogmatic, then belittle them. I could be unkind and suppose it's to build yourself up, to feel better about yourself.
But I don't know you.
And now I don't want to.

Fate is a much bigger claim than free will.

Not what I am attempting to explain here.

Choosing to worship a God is a personal decision that one should make for themselves.

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Christians arent dualists like Zoastrians or Maanicheans. Evil is the lack of good, it doesnt have its own existence so it wasn't created, its like shadow to light.

The picture is literally all of the arguments of the paradox, dipshit.

The reason evil exists is to bring out a greater good from it. That is the power of God. When Adam was made he was a being created in the image of God and that was what man is. But because of the sin of Adam and Eve, with Eve taking a bite from the forbidden fruit under the temptation of evil and Adam not coming to protect Eve from the evil one (Satan). Thus man became a fallen creature in the image of God. When Christ arrived who is God (Trinity), God assumed a human like nature in Christ. He is both man and God. God single handedly raised man from a creature that was in God's image to a Being that partakes in his very Divinity! The evil Satan started ended up backfiring on him! That is why evil is permissible in the world, it is to force out a greater good by converting evil into something truely good. That is the power of God! That is the jist of breaking your arguement in a nutshell!

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Elaborate on this, if you're able.

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>You bracket people as dogmatic,
No, they do it to themselves with their belief systems.
>then belittle them.
I'm sorry you feel that way, give me an example so i can tone it down, legit just expressing my view.
>But I don't know you.
>And now I don't want to.
That's the whole point of anonymity

An infinite being doesn't give a shit about how their gospel is spread.

I am not attempting to defend how an infinite being would disseminate a message.

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Because however old, the Epicuran paradox is a fun thought experiment.
It's well thought out, even if it does assume a lot of the god(s) it pokes at.
Also, a bit of frustration, as I have some rather fanatical family members, who made youth a bit difficult for my cousins, one of whom broke entirely, she's dead now - the other has turned grey and lifeless. I've seen the effect of religion up close, and in a big enough family to compare with others who's parents weren't religious.
There's some residual anger, I miss my cousin, and I blame her death in part on the religion.
I'm not at all discarding her parents as culprits, but that's a different conversation and not one I like very much.

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>Is Lucifer evil?
According to the bible, yes
>Did yahweh make lucifer?
According to the bible, yes
>Is Lucifer evil?
According to the bible, yes
I'm sure you can connect the dots
If god existed before everything else, according to your "yin-yang" argument, god would also have to be evil.

Then why did yahweh even care to have the bible made?

Free will. Without free will all actions would be meaningless. With free will good actions are truly good and evil actions are available. Evil is the price of free will unfortunately.

Lucifer's not in the bible.

People made the bible, by commitee, and with omissions. No dieties were involved.

lucifer, satan, samething

Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

There's an adversary - he pops up twice.
Testing Lot and later, Jesus.
That's the lot. (li'l pun, forgive me)

>Belief is not a choice
Hahahahaha
What would you say belief is, then?

>truth is not a matter of belief
Ok, so then you're saying there is objective truth in the unverse?

I am not trying to be hostile here, just explaining a possible answer to the original question posed.

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Lucifer was not evil when created. He became evil.

Bloody hell, there he is.
It's been a while since I read the thing, my bad.

not a question that I am trying to answer here.

I'm sure a google search would help you more than an user on 4ch.

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No it's not. Remove the mystical connotations an i'll show you why i think so.

Hypothetically, you have an astrophysicist.
This astrophysicist can do all the math to tell you the exact location of mars and the exact time(s) it will be at whatever location. Now you clone them infinitely.
Now you, hypothetically, have an infinitely large army of astrophysicists who can tell you the location of all the particles in the universe and the time(s) each particle will be at whatever location.
Now i'd like you to explain to me, exactly what makes a living thing different from every other particle in the universe.
Before you jump on neurons and consciousness or even souls and whatnot. Keep in mind they are particles too, the infinite astrophysicist army can predict where each particle will be and when using their outstanding mathematical abilities.
Again, before you say that this is impossible, keep in mind we have machines that can read brainwaves and dreams and even thoughts.
>TL;DR What makes life the exception?

Natural Law my friend, the law of polarity. There has to be opposites in order for the other to exist. In any case, satan (the opposer) is a state of consciousness, not a literal being. Christed consciousness being at the other end of the scale.

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I assumed you were a theist who believes god is good, maybe you're not. If you are the statement you made is hypocritical. If you aren't, tell me to read before i fucking reply.

God is a being who lies outside of space and time and is therefore a Being that is not bound by it like human beings, complete and total human comprehension or of any creation of him would be impossible because he is infinite by nature and retains elements that will always be a mystery to humans and all other life because creation could never completely overtake the creator in conplete knowledge of everything. This is also the first Vatican Council definition of God. "The Catholic Church believes that there is one true and living God, the Creator and Lord of heaven and earth, Almighty, Eternal, Immense, Incomprehensible, Infinite in intellect and will and in all perfection; who, being One, Individual, altogether simple and unchangeable Substance, must be asserted to be really and essentially distinct from the world, most happy (blessed) in Himself, and ineffably exalted above everything that exists or can be conceived."

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...

Based faggot is based

Understood. Thank you for sharing more of your point of view.

Please know I am sincerely very sorry about your cousin and offer my condolences for whatever they're worth to you, random internet stranger.

I agree with you, the thought experiment is fun; while we share different points of view, I always appreciate thoughtful discourse in any medium.

Hope you enjoy your weekend.

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Well, no god needed for that bit.
Hence natural law.
We experience this polarity (with lots of grey inbetween extremes), because that's how we behave. We apply this to whatever deities we invent.

Regardless, where does evil come from if not god? The same god who supposedly created everything

Not the user you're talking to but...
>What would you say belief is, then?
A comforting addiction.

Ah, ineffability, again, as always.

Well then read before you fucking reply

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A law that god would have to make. A law that creates evil

We are Adam, cough, Atom.

But don't worry, it gets better.

And that sister fucking fetish you have, that's Eve.

Evil doesnt exist

In order to define evil you have to categorically define actions as "bad"

In order to do that - you have to have a specific outcome to evaluate against

So unless you know the meaning of existence you cannot know evil.

And everything labelled as evil is just negative when certain outcomes are evaluated against them.

The question you should ask yourself is whether a "murderous, evil entity" is worthy of prayer/praise. I'd rather go to Hell with my conscience intact than grovel at the feet of a tyrant.

Topkek

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you're still stuck in the paradox
>if God didn't know beforehand what Eve would do, he is not all-knowing
>if God knew and didn't prevent it, he is either not omnipotent, or not loving

If I was a Christian, I would probably go with the not loving theory. Because God is a huge dick for most of the Bible. One of my least favorite comic book characters tbh.

Thanks, it's been a while, I'm mostly okay.
We're adults, we can cover any topic, and understand that we're mostly just displaying our respective opinions about life, the universe and everything.
They are just opinions, not important, like a hat one may wear.
Granted, I think my hat is very important, and I may mistake it for part of my body from time to time, but I KNOW it's just a hat.
I can change it if I want to.

... reluctantly, with a sweaty upper lip and grittet teeth.

Knowing that tomorrow a new hat will have lodged itselt to my noggin'...

Cheerio user, jolly weekend to you too.

If god exists, god must be hate and love us simultaneously.
If god does not exist, we must hate and love ourselves simultaneously.

Interestingly this gray interpretation of morality is what we all innately operate on despite it being codified that we adopt a static interpretation

The Epicurean Paradox argument in the first post is a thought experiment.

Those of us with thought like to exercise it once in a while.

God is a concept, meant to explain things that humans are unable or unwilling to explain. If you choose to believe it is a fantasy that's fine, but again it's not the point I'm interested in arguing.

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Heh.

Gods love is bigger than you.

He will kill you out of love.
he will destroy cities out of love.

Because death.... isnt evil.

Well, there's no hell, so you're safe there.

>You don't have a reason to worship it

If that's what you want to believe then that's fine. The usual line of thought that follows my argument is either:
>I don't believe God exists and therefore am able to determine what true suffering is
or
>I believe in God, therefore I believe he knows what's best for my life

not the only two opinions, but the ones that are easiest to derive

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>One of my least favorite comic book characters tbh.
I don't know, he has potential as a villain if we can get people to stop shilling the "all-loving part"
I liked the preacher comics interpretation but i would prefer him to be less spergy and more nefarious.

Do you honestly think a single thread in an image board can explain everything to you, when men would spend their whole lifetime being devoted and developing their knowledge based on the concepts being discussed? You have much to learn, I would ask you to keep digging because there is a lot to learn.

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This is a very simple thing that's not even the main faulty part when it comes to the axis of belief.

You simply can't want good without evil because you won't know it's good, it'll just all be normal, that's not what should be at question.

And here is the only reason which everyone will overlook.

As mortals we need good and bad in our cycles of short-term lives so in the long-run the evolution and fabric of existence we are fueling has a long-term good evolution.

We are quite literally taking on the burden of good and evil, to be able to feel and grow with both, so it's not just stagnant grey, so eventually individually and collectively we can get to a non short-lived mortal point with no disease, no famine, no weak mortality and quite literally, evolution to the point of becoming close to ''god'' through good and bad.

If the default was just good, we would all be NPCs and there would be no time passing, no growth, no evolution and eventually it would be immortality -> mortality -> nothing.

Currently humans are in the middle with strings attached.

Well, at least in a blanket way without comparing the experiences of the NPCs, the players and gods in this game of life.

Enjoy, and I'll see you on the other side.

My question to you: If there is no GOD, what justifies morality? What is the point to prevent rape, murder or any form of slavery?

Funny how these things seeem to lessen the more we as a society step away from religions.

You have no idea what I know, or do not know.
You assume you do.
this kills the conversation.

Absolute light is blinding and absolute dark is blinding.
>Based contrastpilled

Just as you mentioned, my opinion is subject to change as well.

I like to think that if we met irl we would have good conversation over some whiskey and cigars.

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Religion gets its morality from us.
We don't need a boogeyman in the sky to keep us "good".
Everybody knows to treat others the way they wish to be treated.
Not counting the mentally ill, the psychopaths and that kind.
But you know deep down what is proper behavior and what isn't.

No gods needed.

Honestly that argument just seems like complete bullshit to me

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Yups, mebbe a meal of something nice.

Superman exists because he exists in someones head.
Superman does not exist because he does not exist outside of someones head.
Superman exists and does not exist at the same time.
Superman is god in this analogy.
/Thread

Gosh!
Do Batman next!

So god is less powerful than nature? He's like a middle-manager or something?

Not that user but my mom helps everyone she meets. Recently(half a year ago) she started helping an addict. He was so grateful every time she did small things like make coffee for him that he broke down in tears.
Fast forward to now, he doesn't even thank her anymore and gets annoyed when the coffee isn't waiting for him to drink.

It doesn't but the epicurean paradox doesn't invalidate pascals wager.

Says who? That's exactly the kind of vague non-answer I would expect from sympathizers.

The funniest part about this to me is, the true divine comedy.

The comment asks for god to have created an Adam that wouldn't disobey.

But the commenter, as is or as Adam would want to be able to say yes or no and learn for himself while growing.

The same free will in this thread choosing to believe or not to believe, arguing about the same things while blissful about the fact that they simply can, while asking why it's not all perfect and why god hasn't created mankind without flaws or struggle while at the same time giving up the side that would leave for errors, and (growing) pains.

That's because (growing) pains give accountable gain.

Humanity through evolution quite literally has the option to grow further and further and take credit for almost all the good and growth.

Selfless creator, and the image reflected by people that don't understand it yet are asking why if he exists or is good, he didn't just take everyone's voice and options to just hand people greatness that they can't take credit for.

The sweet divine comedy, but eventually the players will lead the NPCs out of the game, and back to the GMs.

Adoption curve stories.

Nah, he's entirely absent.
Not there, never was.

That's called selfishness. The crack head is more worried about his coffee being on time rather than your mom's convenience/hand out

and addiction, while occasionally described as a disease, starts with a choice.

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Batman has a mother named Martha.
Superman has a mother named Martha.
Batman and Superman both have mothers named Martha.
Batman got cuckoo'd by Superman in this analogy.

Atheists are christcucks? What does that even mean?

>not even looking at OP's picture

>Implying free will exists.

They got cucked by christ.

why would any1 choose to worship sth a character of which u cant judge?

>You can't have good without evil it would all be normal
Bullshit. I can have Newtonian physics without telekinesis, yet I can still conceive of telekinesis and still notice Newtonian physics.
I can have death without immortality, yet I can still conceive of immortality and still notice mortality.
I'm never not in pain, yet I can still conceive of not being in pain, and I always notice being in pain.

What's so special about good that it can only exist by contrast?

And accepting that for sake of argument, what would be so bad about everything being good and no-one knowing? If everything were good, why would it be important that people know? If you had to choose one, that either there would be no evil and everything would be good but no-one would know, or there would be evil but people would know, would you not choose the former?

Pascal was a feeble fop, who had no spine and would rather full-hedge than take a stand.
I spit on his wager.

a conviction
yes

k

Naw, they're friends, really.

If everything is the same weight, how can something be lighter or heavier?
By contrasting the weight.

He speaks meme, he doesn't actually say anything.

No, merely positing an equally powerful god that gets pissed off if you *do* accept is sufficient to invalidate Pascal's wager.

It's not like you'd even be inventing Him: the muslims already have.

so whats the reason to worship it, if u cant say hes either good or evil, or anything in between?

>Spoiler
Batman is plotting another attempt on Supermans life for stealing and brainwashing his mother in to believing an alien baby is her son.

ATTENTION CHRISTFAGS!

THIS IS A BAIT THREAD.

IF YOU CONTINUE TO ARGUE WITH THIS Troll SHITPOASTER, HE WINS!

CEASE AND DESIST FROM GETTING BAITED BY OBVIOUS BAIT.

sage

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What have you said user?

Dramatic!
It'll be a series on Netflix!

What would be wrong with everything being the same weight?

What would preclude someone thinking about weight in the hypothetical, the same way you can think about two-dimensional worlds, or four-dimensional worlds, or worlds where the geometry is non-euclidean?

You don't live in a four-dimensional universe, but I can talk to you about a hypercube.

It's literally the same god though...
Muslims are just cantankerous that Christians only accept the one prophet and not all of the prophets they claim to have existed.

Nah, DC prefers amazon. Negative taxes. Fuck Canada.

If you had read the thread, which you haven't, you'd see proper conversations taking place.

Hell and damnation - greed is a tit.

Surely it would be child's play to win an argument against someone who was wrong? Just explain why, and job done.

May work against Greek pagan religion. Doesn't work against Christianity. God is good. You are evil. You deserve worse than your currently suffering. You deserve Hell. Right now. Preferably yesterday.

This leads to the version that works on Christianity: How can a good and just God not throw you into Hell? How can He hold back His wrath against you? How can He spare those He saved (from Himself)? [spoiler]Hint: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[/spoiler]

>Justin Trudeau has entered the thread

>your car is my car because I say it's the same car
Funny how it doesn't work with "money", "wife", "house", "penis", etc.

I think you have to listen to the other person when he says your god is not his god. I don't think you can just tell him he's wrong.

You are trying to explain god with human logic. You will fail every time.

Blimey, gods a right git.

We invented god, we can bloody well dismantle him again,

>What would be wrong with everything being the same weight?
Nothing.
What would be good about everyone behaving the same?
Same answer, unless ofcourse, you believe good and evil are dictated/defined by something other than people. In which case it would be good or bad depending on the external force(s) definition and thus the entire point is moot and so is your(and my) opinions on good and bad. If this is the case, why define anything for ourselves in the first place instead of leaving it up to said external force?

I have made no assumptions other than to notify you that there is a lot of knowledge that deals with catachism and apologetics and that a single Cred Forums thread could not absolutely complete your knowledge or wholly and totally give a complete answer to questions other than a basic run down of them. It also is dependent on how much do you want to know about God, that conversation would require a whole other thread if not a complete series of threads. Also, I could not make assumptions of a persons knowledge based on what they post here or even their predespositions wether they are more receptive or hostile to the topic. If you come from a position of hostility, it defeats the purpose of these threads, No one is going to make a fundumental shift of opinion other then to try and respect what the opposing viewpoint is and establish a sense of mutual understanding. So no, don't make the assumption that I assume what you know user.

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Your argument doesn't work:

- who gets to say I'm evil?
>god
- why?
>god made the rules
- is god good?
>yes
- what does jesus say good people do to people who wrong them?
- does jesus say you should do this conditionally or unconditionally?
- does god's standard of morality as articulated by jesus apply to god?
- if not how can you call god good?

Your dubs are undeserved. Not every thread is bait nor does it have to be treated as such. One wonders why porn threads have become dominant when one posts these threads to be treated as bait

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Or he and his mom think someone at the bottom of their life should be appreciative of someone in a good position with privileges coming by, watching them at their lowest point like a zoo attraction and only giving coffee.

If that was me and someone saw me fucked up and gave me a dollar on a rainy day, I'd say thanks, if that same person did that as a ''good deed'', once a week, to the point they're making themselves and their families feel like they're virtuous, I'd tell them to fuck off since $4 a month does nothing and at some point you're thanking someone and positioning yourself below them, while it doesn't really do anything for you and you watch people that could actually make a change in your life, do nothing while they are comfortable.

I wouldn't even blame someone in that scenario if they robbed that guy's mom and him, for even having the willful naivety to think you can be comfortable in your living position to the point you would stand over someone at their last ends and thinking they can't get robbed or lose their position in any way.

cont

As if they deserve everything they have, and someone else is just worth the coffee they're bringing as a ''good deed'', people like that often make themselves feel like everything they got is their own doing, and everything someone else doesn't have is their fault too.

I often even hear stories of rich people that keep their doors unlocked during the summer and then act surprised when someone comes in to steal.

It's willful naivety, wanting to believe nobody would do it to them, and even if it does, not even having the same type of worries that someone else has, yet expecting the best possible outcome.

It's even ridiculous that he mentioned his mom bringing coffee, you talked about it and now I am.

Fuck off, that entire family probably spends more in a day than all of the coffee his mom has ever brought that guy.

People expect gratefulness for things that even they wouldn't appreciate, but they put it on someone else JUST because they are at lower points, while that same kid might complain about an iphone for christmas, talking about a ''drug addict not appreciating mom's coffee''.

>God is infallible. God exists beyond logic. God exists beyond creation. God exists beyond comprehension. God exists beyond good and evil. Gods contradictions are a test of your faith.
>TFW we constructed a mirror that can't be de-constructed no matter which direction we come at it with our logic.
>TFW humanity failed this hard, this fast.
IKEA HELP US

tl;dr

>why define anything
We don't define gravity. We can imagine its presence, and imagine its absence, but we don't get a say.

If you can conceive of a world with no evil, or even a world with less evil*, then surely an omnipotent being could make this world? If not, it's not that omnipotent now is it?

* for instance a world where stubbing your toe feels less painful. It doesn't have to be a world that's different in any way you can experimentally measure.

God is literally the first Schrodinger's cat.

And the fact that you can be wrong yet wilfully disagree to feel good about the decision you think you've made is why it's true.

That is the problem. When you enter these threads, you buckle up and understand the context. If you can't muster the attention to read it then your not in a position to argue.

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It's logically impossible to create a world in which free-will exists but evil does not.

This does not conflict with the idea of God being omnipotent. He might be capable of performing two mutually exclusive actions at the same time, but we are not.

A world in which Free-will exists, but evil does not exist is impossible to create, because the finite beings created in that world would not be capable of Free-will if they weren't also capable of evil.

To suggest God can create a world where beings are capable of Free-Will but are incapable of evil is to suggest God is capable of creating finite, limited beings that are also infinite and devoid of evil. Which of course is a contradiction in terms.

>DOOM

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This is just a idea probably not right but here goes. Ok so Joan of arc said "She talked to god" and people during the time believed her but with our knowledge nowadays we can pretty much say she was schizophrenic according to a few things I've read so with that being said it looks like to me that whoever created the bible probably had some sort of mental illness like schizophrenia. I mean they were talking to a invisible man after all.

>We don't define gravity.
Yes we do.
>If you can conceive of a world with no evil, or even a world with less evil
I can.
>hen surely an omnipotent being could make this world?
It could
>If not, it's not that omnipotent now is it?
It isn't
>for instance a world where stubbing your toe feels less painful.
Eh?
>It doesn't have to be a world that's different in any way you can experimentally measure.
If you can't measure the difference how can you know it's different.
I think i must've hijacked a convo because i don't believe and i don't think the dude i agreed with believed either.
I'll save us all some time and clarify.
From a scientific standpoint, contrast has to exist to comprehend. You can only understand that pain is "bad" because you once experienced the absence of it.
E.g
My nephew was deaf(almost) he talked gibberish for years thinking it was actual words until he got hearing aids. Then comprehension dawned on him and he began to communicate.
Another example.
Exp[lain light to a blind man, or color. Explain sound to a deaf man. Explain the smell of lavender to someone without olfactory responses.
It's incomprehensible at the worst and vague at the best.
I know a killer. He kills. I've never seen anyone sadder in my whole life but when he's happy i've never seen anyone with so much joy over such small things.(dancing, music, laughter) It's heartbreaking and beautiful at the same time.
>TL:DR I'm not advocating the status quo or any sort of divinity.

you really like physics user

I do. I really like penises and anuses too. And penises in anuses, sometimes tongues or perhaps even the occasional proboscis.

Nah...I'll stick to brown nosing. Following some rules isn't hard and my pride isn't worth an eternity of getting butt raped by red hot pitchforks

Did you just lump all humans AND GOD in the same category? God's standard for how a husband should treat his wife doesn't apply to how an unmarried woman should treat her brother. God's standard for how a human should treat another human most certainly doesn't apply to how God should treat a human.

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" Numbers 23:19

God is good. That He refuses to follow your (evil and, compared to God, stupid) moral standard doesn't make Him evil. Even if you imagine that it does.

I arrived there with a man and his mother, the man seemed to be in business or something and the mother was somehow related to me or felt an obligation but wouldn't tell me how or why i was there. My worst fears were realized an millions of spiders were crawling everywhere and i was jumping over them, they swarmed over the businessman but i felt guilty and stopped. Another person told me this was what a scream was like this place. The businessman was being torn apart from the inside by tentacles but it wasn't me. A younger woman arrived shortly after talking about someone never being the same since some event and she wanted to punish the busnessman.
I convinced her i was on her side and that she would never be alone again. We started to run through the place for some reason and were being chased.
Each room was divided into 4. In the middle was a steep saircase going up or down. The type of staircase you'd see on a ship or submarine. These rooms continuead up and down and front to back forever but not side to side. You could not see into the other rooms but knew they existed.
Each section of the rooms were for different things. Exercising in one section, gardening in anotheretc.
The sooms weren't all good, i remember bad things happening in some of the sections of the room.
In the place you could change things with your mind, i could make the flowers fly off the stem like birds or release polen which would grow into flowers immediately. A man ate them as if it was nutritious or something. We turned to go in the other direction but there were no doors so we tried going up but as we went up the woman who iwas with was also coming down so we gave that up.
The woman then did some trick where she could talk to her faher and she led me out of the place but i don't know how. Once we were outside she seemed disappointed that it was over but i reassured her of something and then i woke up.

>butt raped by red hot pitchforks
Jokes on you i have algolagnia.

problem of evil is directly applicable to your monotheism, dipshit
why is there evil in the world?