I'm so sorry Cred Forums

I'm so sorry Cred Forums

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GET OUT!!

Who died and why it isn't Bendis?

Please just go back to marvel and all will be forgiven even in your old age you must be a better editor then what they have now.

For what?

I want Stan to live forever honestly

Bendis died?

Really serious for a minute. With Croker just passing. I can't even think of how many people I really respect and/or appreciate have passed away. But SHIT, I can't think of anyone I just really hate who has. Maybe a few I'm indifferent to. But no one that would just be better off not around anymore.

Oh he is eternal, child. He has taken many forms over the years. He is the Wandering Jew.

People still die?
Our hate sustains them. Every Red Hood thread gives Lobdell twenty more years.

The only way to atone is to voice a new villain for new episodes of SGCTC

Stan Lee was a shit editor

Maybe that means you respect and appreciate a lot more people than you hate, user. Maybe you're not as bitter as the average user.

why? so he can steal more credit? capitalize on other people's work?

GIVE CROKER BACK YOU OLD SON OF A BITCH! YOU'VE HAD A GOOD LIFE, WHY DO YOU KEEP TAKING THE LIFE FORCE FROM PEOPLE DECADES YOUNGER THAN YOU!

>decades

>this meme again

>he thinks its a meme
kid, why dont you try educating yourself on this. I highly suggest reading Marvel Comics: The Untold Story or watching/researching the Ditko documentary by Johnathan Ross. Ross tried to get Lee to admit that that Ditko created Spider-Man, but Lee will only say "in my opinion Ditko created spider-man" and never actually just flat out say it due to legal reasons.


Lee has taken credit for creating Captain America, even though he wasnt even a teenager when Kirby and Joe Simon made it up.
Go look at some of the storyboards Kirby made for the original Fantastic Four books, and see how much of the dialogue Kirby wrote himself in the panel margins.


When Lee first started writing for comics he came up with the name Stan Lee so as not to sully his own name with the "funny book" stuff, because he wanted to be a "real" writer and write movies or books. Thankfully, everyone outside of comics saw how much of a hack he was and he had little to no success getting out of the industry.


Stanley Lieberman has always spent more attention at creating the Stan Lee character then on any goddamn comic.

>Ross tried to get Lee to admit that that Ditko created Spider-Man, but Lee will only say "in my opinion Ditko created spider-man" and never actually just flat out say it due to legal reasons.

So what you're saying is that Ross tried to get Lee to admit that Ditko made Spider-Man, to which Lee said "Ditko made Spider-Man".

I don't see an issue.

no, he never ever will say the words "Ditko made Spider-Man" he only ever says "in my opinion" and will squirm and refuse to flat out say it, because his lawyers have told him as much. Hell, he wanted his lawyer at the interview so that he wouldnt say anything that would effect his legal standing as "creator" of Spider-Man.

>in my opinion Ditko created spider-man
Wow, he literally took all credit from Ditko for himself, Jesus Christ what a scumbag!

read you idiot, he refuses to give any legal leeway that Ditko created Spider-man

Get off the internet Steve, nobody gives two shits about you.

cant handle your idol being a fucking hack fraud?

>idol
He's just the old guy who appears in every Marvel movie to me, user.

so you're a casual that doesnt actually care about comics or the creators that made all the ideas in those movies you watch?


dont you think the Kirby estate or Ditko estate should be getting some of the money Lee keeps reeling in?

>that doesn't actually care about comics
Wait, so is Lee a hack who stole other peoples ideas or is he the guy who came up with the? I'm now confused about what your position is.

How can you be this dumb, obviously im referring to people like Ditko, Simon and Kirby, the people that actually came up with the ideas that entertain you. For fucks sake are you a child?

stop acting like a 12 year old. Lee contributed to the FF and Spidey equally in their beginning years.

Compare his dialogue with Ditko's later Charlton works or Kirby's later ones on DC comics and you will figure it out easily which one was pure Lee crack.

>STAN LEE IS YOUR IDOL HURKADERP
>I don't care about Stan Lee
>HOW CAN YOU NOT CARE ABOUT THESE PEOPLE?
>What, Stan Lee?
>NO THESE OTHER PEOPLE THAT NEITHER OF US WAS REFERRING TO UNTIL NOW!
user, calm down. The post I called you Steve was meant to lighten the mood of a thread that turned into a cesspool of hate. It obviously didn't work. Stop being so emotional about this. Stan Lee is not stealing anything from you personally, you have no reason to be this invested in the matter.

But you jokingly called him Steve?
Who were you referring to if not Steve Ditko?
He did also mention Kirby.

>grasping at straws this hard
Okay. Have fun.

And theres still time for him to fuck up the new red hood as well.

damn nigga u angry
its ok we all get cheated out of our money one time in our lives
u should be glad it was over the creation of spider man
man i just get robbed from people on the street, not by stan fucking lee congrats man maybe next life

And what we have now is even worse.

Again, try reading the actual storyboards and look at how much of the plot and dialogue was written by Kirby.

And even IF Lee did have a part in their creation, why arent the Kirby and Ditko estates getting nearly as much money as Lee?

I literally talk about Ditko in multiple posts and in the post you responded to I said
>dont you think the Kirby estate or Ditko estate should be getting some of the money Lee keeps reeling in?

How can you be THIS retarded? Reading comprehension.


And the whole point of superheroes is standing up for injustices that dont personally involve you.


also wasnt me

>I dont actually have anything to say, I'm just here to shitpost

I'm not even him, but you just said that neither of you mentioned them, but you did and even admitted it in your post?

>f-fuck they saw I had no argument
>well you're g-grasping at straws
>h-ha I r-r-really got them!

it k bae

>look ma, I'm doing it again!

its kay bae

>Ditko estate

Ditko is still alive, tho.

Stan's never outright refused to give Kirby or Ditko credit, he's just too much of a company man to fight for them. I won't say it isn't cowardly, but Marvel is still signing those checks. I don't believe Stan ever went out of his way to screw Kirby or Ditko. At the very least, he's far from being a Bob Kane.

Stan Lee is entertaining as Stan Lee though and besides, for all his sins he's still not Bob Kane.

>and again mom!

Kirby's estate did go after Marvel for that and got fucked over. Ditko himself is a recluse which really doesn't make it marvel or Lee's fault.

Lee went after Marvel and actually won. Also you forget how many characters he had a hand in making as opposed to Kirby. Yes they worked on FF together but he also made Spidey as well as other heroes.

Stan Lee can be a glory hound I will give you that but in all his interviews this guy gave credit where it was due and also gave artists in the front page of comic books (which was unheard of at the time).

Obviously. Moment I see mimes or some irrelevant villain OC idiocy like that, I'm noping the fuck out of it.
Royal Flush Gang on other side, wouldn't mind seeing them seeing nobody uses them.

I know Ditko is still alive, but I doubt he'd accept any of the money himself at this point with how fucking crazy he is.


And no, Lee wasnt as bad as Kane, but he is still a fucking hack that takes way more credit than he deserves and was responsible for killing Gwen Stacy, all while publicly saying he had nothing to do with it.


Kirby created almost all of the monsters they are using in the upcoming Monster whatever crossover, and he also made up the Eternals, Black Panther, Silver Surfer, Galactus, and Captain America, which are huge parts of Marvel lore.


Lee stated, in his biography, that he made Captain America. He was literally the errand boy for Simon and Kirby at the time. Also they were getting their names on the covers of comics way before Lee, and when Lee did it was just as away of attracting the attached fan bases.

>why arent the Kirby and Ditko estates getting nearly as much money as Lee?

Stan has way more writing and editing credits than both of them put together. Stan also has a bunch of producer credits for cartoons, movies and TV. He was businessman enough to go after the money. Kirby and Ditko just wanted to make comics. Everyone was getting fucked in those days because no one knew the value the characters and stories would one day have. I'm sure even Stan got fucked, but he capitalized on the opportunities that shit opened up.

>was responsible for killing Gwen Stacy, all while publicly saying he had nothing to do with it.

He was only responsible for approving the story. He didn't write it or come up with the idea. He just claimed to know nothing about it because he didn't want fans to be mad at him.

You realize the majority of Lee's editing credits come from a period where he was the editor in chief and did jack shit for any of the comics other than interfere with their plans?


And there is plenty of evidence of Kirby and Ditko trying to get some money, look at all their post-Marvel dealings or how Kirby would only come back to Marvel if he got full control over a Captain America comic (which Lee eventually put an end to), or Kirby's brief stint in hollywood.


Don't just say things you dont actually know anything about.


At the very least they should give credit to them at the start of the marvel movies that make them so much money. And why did Lee even get a cameo in the Captain America movie, he had nothing to do with it.

ok aside for that one mistake on Lee's part is there anything else that was his fault? I mean I genuinely won't blame him for the error because this guy has massive memory issues throughout history. I mean it was clear even early on when he named Bruce Banner Robert for an issue of the Hulk or Peter's last name as Palmer.

Also like I said Kirby went after Marvel and got fucked over. (then later on his estate decided to settle outside of court. Once again not Lee's fault).

Lee went after Marvel (he wasn't getting anything much either) and actually won. He had nothing to do with Kirby not earning his keep. Blame corporate Marvel for that.

no, he flat out encouraged it to garner sales and then berated the writer for it when the fan backlash hit him and he feigned innocence. The writer then promptly left the book right after that because Lee was being a dick.

bullshit. Conway stayed on a few years, even returned her as a clone once Lee begged him too. He left because he wanted to go to hollywood and be taken seriously as a script writer.

fair enough, I do blame Marvel. and I blame Lee for not being a good friend or partner to any of the people that helped him get to where he is today.


He is going to die without friends.

I should have worded it better, I meant he left the book promptly after the backlash hit Lee (since he was touring colleges) and Lee kept interfering with the book editorially.

He has enough love and support as it is today.

Also Kirby left because he thought Lee was making fun of him in some newspaper or radio interview I think he read but accounts of people like Conway proved that Lee wasn't.

If you want to blame anyone you should blame Kirby for burning his bridges with Lee over petty misunderstanding.

I really don't see what else Lee could've done when Kirby already hated his guts.

but didn't he stay on for a few years? I mean from all of Conway's interviews he did express his dislike over Lee's intervention but massively gave him credit for being an amazing guy overall.

it really wasnt a petty misunderstanding, they kept treating Kirby like shit and never gave him a book to be artist/writer of until Captain America in the 70s.


There were new, younger artists that got to be writer/editors of characters Kirby created, while Kirby kept getting shafted. Whats more, they were having Kirby train his replacements that would work for less.


They really kept fucking Kirby over, and there is no way you can say it was his fault. He didnt burn any bridges either, considering he came back in the 70s (as mentioned earlier) to do another Cap run.

Way I understood it is that his last handful of issues were in the can or mostly written by the artist. I could be misremembering, but I have him in the same category as Starlin and Gerber as far as leaving Marvel due to editorial interference, and then attempting to return later with a promise of royalties.

I think I was referring to the interview around the 90s where he took credit for everything in marvel, including spiderman and constantly thrashed Lee in a mean spirited way.

He seemed really bitter about it. At least Lee gave Kirby credit in his interviews.

oh sure, yeah, by then Kirby was really bitter towards Lee

Slightly related note, but every time I see claims like "Stan Lee will pay lip service to Ditko and Kirby but won't say anything legally binding", I just want to point out that Bob Kane used to say this, and DC wouldn't even give Bill Finger credit until the last year.

The reason people say that particular hatred of Stan Lee is just a meme is because we all know that Bob Kane is worse, and faggots like you make his shit seem minor by even comparing the two.

Let's put it another way, Jim Steranko has never said with, WITH PRIDE, that he "bitch-slapped him across the face".

How much of what you charge against Stan Lee was actually Martin Goodman's fault? Stan was just the editor. Up until 1972 or so, Martin Goodman ran the company. Martin Goodman signed the checks. And Martin Goodman made policy as far as budgets, art returns, royalties and such.

Kirby was hacked off at Lee for his perception that Lee was taking more credit than he deserved. But any financial grievances he had against Marvel were against Martin Goodman.

Im mostly talking about bizarro

He took too much credit, but then he was the face of Marvel, still is.

He's an incredibly charismatic person, a real personality if you will, so when people want to write articles about Marvel, they go to him. Invariably this leads to him getting more and more praise than he probably deserves, but to be fair at this point he's had 50 odd years of being told he's the genius behind Spider-Man, Hulk, FF etc. It would go to anyone's head.

I'm not trying to say that Lee is blameless because he isn't. I've certainly spent many years hating the old hack, I'm just saying I've come to terms with it.

Lee is one of the key driving factors behind Marvel's success. His personality informed those first Marvel comics in the 60's with his jovial tongue in cheek wink and nod to the reader, with their engagement with their fans. The man could sell sand to an Arab and that's apparent on the page

As it is, I don't think I've seen or read many interviews with him where he doesn't in some way talk about the artists at the time, usually Ditko, Kirby and Romita. Sure he's all about him, but he's a grandstanding showoffy cunt, but its not like he doesn't mention them. And he made the point of having the Spider-Man films say "Spider-Man created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko"

The way I see it you go through 3 phases with Lee.

Love. You think he's great amazing EXCELSIOR TRUE BELIEVER!

Then you find out about the Kirby/Ditko thing and you hate the doddering old hack

Then you come to accept that he isn't entirely to blame for having a huge public personality that Kirby and particularly Ditko lacked.

At least he's not Bob fucking Kane. Pic related.

This. Stan Lee's biggest sin is he never went to bat for his friends. He did have a hand in everything he's given credit for but it was all collaborations. Stan got a lot of credit because people just assumed the writer was the one doing all the hard work and the artists were just replaceable monkeys. Stan didn't do a lot to dispel that perception and enjoyed the money and adoration he received as a result. He did always give kudos to guys like Kirby and Ditko, just not enough that they'd actually get their fair share of the millions, if not billions they made for Marvel.

Literally almost everything that made Batman great came from other people. All Kane had was the name and a very different character. Bob Kane wouldn't even admit Finger or Robinson did anything. The only person Kane gave any credit to was God. Probably done in a vain effort to avoid hell for being such a shit.

We will forgive you... if you crawl around in diapers and have immense pleasure expelling massive lumps of charcoal TURD into them

Kind of like how marvel never said kamala was the first muslim cape they just never corrected anybody.

This.

Unlike what fucking nutters like Ditko might think, the world is not black and white, there are shades of grey.

I'll never understand the people who act as though Stan did absolutely fucking nothing while Ditko and Kirby slaved away under the cruel lash of his tyrannical whip.

To be fair, why should they? Its free publicity and they'd never reach all the people who said it anyway.

What would it even accomplish?

There's a reason there's three phases in terms of feeling towards Stan Lee.

>"OMG he created all my favorite Marvel characters!"
>"That fucking bastard stole the credit for all of my favorite Marvel characters from Ditko and Kirby!"
>"He could've fought harder, but at least he never claimed he did it alone like for years and that anyone else who claims they created the characters was lying."

Seriously, Bob said that.

>twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/03kane.html

My favourite bob kane story is the clown paintings.

The best one is clearly Sterenko, but Clown paintings is also gold

>It's a "Mindless hate on Lee ruins a thread yet again" post

I'm tired of those.

People don't understand that the most power Stan Lee ever had was Publisher. He was still a small fish in the corporate structure of Marvel. Lee wasn't the one drafting the shitty and legally questionable work for hire contracts that caused Kirby to leave in the early 70's

Also that's why Kirby left. Because congress passed new copyright laws allowing copyright sellers the ability to terminate the sale of copyright after a given period of time. So Marvel drafted up new work for hire contracts saying you had to permanently relinquish all rights to creations while working for them.

That's also what the Marvel vs Kirby Estate lawsuit was about. His family was filing there termination of copyright sales, as they legally could, and Marvel sued them saying that the copyrights never belonged to Kirby in the first place. They tried making the legal case that being work for hire means Marvel owns all of your ideas BEFORE you even put them on paper.

Of course Marvel settled outside of court right before taking it the Supreme Court because they were afraid of what would happen if the lost. It would set a legal precedent for others to follow, others who didn't have the Kirby estates money to fight Disney/Marvel in a long legal battle

Doesn't change the fact that Stan stole Spider-man co-creator rights away from Ditko. That is why is the worst.

LEEEEEEE REEEEEEEEEEEEEE THIEF SCOUNDREL VILLIAN

How can you steal the rights to a character that neither of you own?

hell be fine

Die? As in they cease to live?

>He's just the old guy who appears in every Marvel movie to me

Fucking Cred Forums needs to go back to their own board.

wew

Man I really wanted to see a proper outcme tot that. Every single silver age estate basically terminating marvel and dc rights. Holy shit the clusterfuck it would create would be crazy.


It would be nice if the estates also release them to public domain.

Fucking kike

Except he didn't. He signed a piece of paper stating that he considered Ditko to be the co creator of Spider-Man but that wasn't good enough for him.

He didn't have the right to say that he was because any and all legal rights to the character are owned by Marvel and always have been.

He also always credits him when talking about it. And made a point of making sure his name was in the credits of the Spider-Man films as "Spider-Man created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko"

Lee was a prick for not helping him out where getting royalties was concerned, but he hardly "Stole the rights away"

Don't you dare

This.

For all their defence of Steve Ditko, people sure do forget that the bloke is a fucking nutter