Now that the dust has settled, was he?

AvX still had that epic final battle.
And for all the fail issues they were in the Phoenix Five were amazeballs just as was.
Plus that was the "rebirth" that made The Phoenix more than a "Jean-died-again" joke.

>And for all the fail issues they were in the Phoenix Five were amazeballs just as was.
>that issue of X-Treme X-Men
laft pretty hard tbqh

No, that's the joke. Anyone with a brain knew he was totally wrong before AvX was half way over.

He was, but Marvel will still try to make him look bad, and act like he is Hitler, and people not buying he is wrong, and then they try to burry his character more, and more in thqat process.

Because someone older, stronger, and far more experienced tried and failed. What else was he supposed to think?

Rachel had used it successfully.

>What else was he supposed to think?
Trust Cyclops.

Yeah because Cyclops is such a pillar is sanity where anything resembling Jean is involved.

You mean the guy who thought mutants only should train Hope, even though she really ended up needing Spider Man and Kun'Lun to actually do it? And if Cap had given Cyclops his way and let him handle it (for no better reason than petulant "it's the mutie's turn" whining) Hope WOULD NOT have been ready and the world would have been destroyed?

That the Phoenix could be used to kickstart mutant manifestations and save the species? Yes.
That Hope was ready and prepared to use the Phoenix to accomplish this?
No.

Lol, are you all forgetting Rachel Summers?

She was the Phoenix for years, and didn't have really any problems. Shes the big fuck you to the entire Avengers vs X-Men series because shes proof that you can use the phoenix without destorying a planet or two.

Honestly, I get him not going along with Cyke's more militant stance.

He's been fighting for so damn long he wants to shoulder it himself.

Eh, maybe. We *don't* know that she would've immediately gone all Dark Phoenix. Actually if I'm not mistaken she only does in the What If? after Mags goads her into it.

No, I'm not

>she really ended up needing Spider Man and Kun'Lun to actually do it?
They didn't do anything.

Pretty much. They taught her how to fight the phoenix, not wield it.

Rachel handled it for a while, but then it seemed like Jean was too. And then this happened. So you're wrong.

Eh, sorry was just grabbing all the messages that sound like the poster only could think of Jean as an example of someone using the Phoenix. I feel like Rachel has been forgotten about largely within the comic reader's minds, so yah gotta remind them every now and then that she was a thing.

Jean would've been a-ok, if Emma hadn't mind fucked her.

But we do know Kun'Lun had done it successfully before. They trained Fongji Wu to handle the phoenix force. Cyclops? Not so much.

They did EVERYTHING. Without them, the world was fucked.

Completely different.

First of all, that technically wasn't Jean. AT the time, the real Jean was in the bottom of a lake, healing. That 'Jean' was just the Phoenix Force taking her place for awhile.

Second of all, the reason that happened was because Mastermind had spent quite a long amount of time fucking with her head every single day, making her go crazy.

That is a good point, but there's also the notion that The Phoenix only turns bad when people screw with it:
Original Phoenix-Jeanie was goody-two-shoes until The Hellfire Club.
Tony Stark tried to kill it and it ended up in the wrong mutants.
They start doing all that nice stuff and the Avengers keep attacking them until Namor finally does what Namor always does...
And then when Phoenixclops tries to get Hope back, because there still was his original plan of getting the Phoenix into Hope, what do they do?
They stop him.
Why?
Because they don't trust the very plan that they eventually will decide to fulfill themselves.
And then there's DarkPhoenixScott, everyone knows that he's starting to crack up and he's losing it, so what's the plan?
Professor X punches him in the brain, because what could go wrong?

So who's fault was that? The Phoenix?

Nnnnno, Emma and Mastermind only brainwashed Jean, it was human emotions that resulted in Dark Phoenix. The Hellfire Club just gave it the opportunity.

It was more mastermind than Emma.

>Lol, are you all forgetting Rachel Summers?

everyone did

Thought it was Mastermind.

None of that really has any bearing on Wolverine's choice though, for him it as a reasonable decision based on his own experience. Sure he might have built Jean up a little in his head because he loved her, but it's not like his choice came out of nowhere.

dude, she was mind fucked enough to the point that she not only thought it was like the 1800s, but she was married to some random dude.

normal human emotions don't make you think you're living in the wrong century

>the world was fucked.
Only because Tony split the Phoenix in the first place.

She wouldn't have been in that position if she hadn't been mindfucked though...
Fair enough. I just remember she was involved.

Bunn-san didn't! Damn shame the two alternate reality expat Grey kids don't get more love.

Even Marvel forgot about her. Claremont wouldn't have.

his plan was doomed to fail from the start. the avengers fucking the phoenix gave them more time then they actually had. except for the mutants who got fucked in the crossfire, everything turned out ok. he was lucky, not right

Yah, she was involved cause she was the White Queen of the Hellfire Club and a lot more of an evil bitch back then. Like with what she did to... whats her name from Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends. The fire chick. In the comics, she got ROYALLY fucked over by Emma

"For what!"

Dude. What an asshole. He died to save a 14 year old girl you monumental cunt. You don't then tell the 14 year old girl that she might not be worth it.

This kind of shit is why Logan was more wrong than Scott was right btw.

And Dark Phoenix happened after the brainwashing was broken. So...yeah.

>Tony
No, if not for Tony it would have found Hope, she wouldn't have been ready, and the Earth would have burned. She needed help from people that happened to not be mutants, and Wrongclops was too butthurt to admit it was even possible.

i bet nate is just fucking around on earth. he needs his full set back already

i fear what current claremont would do with rachel

Really, everyone was lucky that things turned out the way they did (except Xavier and Cyclops). All the other possible outcomes seemed really terrible.

lol

People universally value the lives of people they care about over an equal number of random unknown people, I get where he's coming from.

...Yeah, like RIGHT after. Plus, brainwashing to that extent just doesn't 'go away'. It was literally the Hellfire Club's intention to make the Phoenix go crazy like that. It blew up in their face, yeah, but it was their very intention to break the Phoenix's mind, and they succeeded.

Any hero who gets their mind broken could go crazy and fuck shit up.

They didn't want to train Hope. They wanted to take her "somewhere". The government tried again and again to whipe mutants out, and here was Captain America with shield coming to take the last best hope for their people away.

The only thing Cyclops did wrong was to give them a chance.

They can both be wrong.

And she was only vulnerable to it in the first place because the PF wasn't ready for human emotion, and DP was unchecked passion. Sure it was a copy of Jean, but the copy was so good no one could tell the difference, not even Xavier. And this functionally perfect copy could not handle the Phoenix Force for too long, it was inevitable, just like it would have been for Rachel sooner or later.

You can value someone's life without shitting on a little girl. Logan was a straight up cunt in this. There's no defending that.

Yeah, if you've read for along time you know how much Kurt and Logan really loved each other as friend's. They were extremely close.

But for him to go off on Hope, was uncalled for, and honestly out of character.

Its like a hero dies saving a bunch of people from a burning building, so his ally walks up to all the kids he just saved and go "WERE ANY OF You FUCKERS WORTH ITTTTT!"

He went over a line he shouldn't have

They wanted to take her somewhere where the PF couldn't find her, they even mentioned the Negative Zone. Whether or not that would have worked is up for debate, but Cyclops being wrong is absolutely NOT. He was wrong, completely wrong, his reasons for fighting the Avengers were childish and petty.

When you come with an army you aren't asking for cooperation. Scott was 100% right to stand up for the sovereignty he gained.

He shoukd have gone harder faster.

yes
Storm only cares about PR
Beast only cares about being a bitch
Magneto tries but he's surrounded by bitch muggas

Avengers only want to fight other heroes

Inhumans just want to turn the world in a gas chamber

I can empathize with someone and still think they're being a shithead at the same time user.

You do know that Phoenix-Jeanie and Emma had a relationship during that time, right?

Yeah, but that still doesn't add up to Hope or Rachel not being able to handle it.

The X-Men learned from their mistake. They figured out that the Phoenix Force is a source for good, unless you fuck with it. They know this, and the Phoenix Force now ALSO has experience with human emotion.

Despite them knowing this and wanting everyone else out of the way so they can take care of something they have expertise in, the Avengers still butted their heads in and fucked EVEYRTHING up. LIke monumentally so.

Can I get a CYCLOPS WAS RIGHT reading list? I want to find out how right and why

Wait, when was that shit retconned in? Cause I very much do not remember any of that shit happening in the lead up to the Dark Phoenix Saga

Really? What was the terrible outcome from what happened? It was really just about the best possible outcome with a few exceptions.

he was pretty based in Whedon's Astonishing

Note that hee did end up fighting tooth and nail to protect her. He took a one way ride to the future, even.
Fuck man, he just lost his closest friend. It was dickish, but it makes sense. Look at that sadness on his face, man.

>No, if not for Tony it would have found Hope
>she wouldn't have been ready,
conjecture
>the Earth would have burned
It burned anyway, or flooded rather.

>he needs his full set back alread
I was so ready for Cable to get that buff after Hope cured him, but alas...fuck.

>just like it would have been for Rachel
Rachel had one thing Jean didn't. Summers genes. The resiliency of those things is absurd. Fuck look at Vulcan without Darwin.
Hope was wrought of the Phoenix, even more so than Jean's double.

>Scott was 100% right to stand up for the sovereignty he gained.
Was about to post this.

Begin at Deadly Genesis. Continue in Uncanny X-Men through Benis's UXM. Make sure to check in with X-Force v.3.
Also, the original Civil War X-Men tie in has some proto-correctclops.

Utopia is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of /essentialrightclops/-core.

Its hard to narrow down a list, because its been going on for so long. You basically have to learn how much shit the mutant race has gone through in comics since about 2000 or so after that, then learn about what Hope is about, then start with Avengers vs. X-Men and all the X-Men comics after that.

When you do that, you learn how much the other heroes are extreme hypocrites becuase they want to give Cyclops shit, when they haven't done a god damn single thing to the fact that mutant kids are being killed in the streets.

USgovt sends decades sending death bots to gather your people and kill them. They refuse to stop. You just managed to fight off the last shield bunch who were torturing what was left of your people after having to escape a real deal government reservation. You make a place of power and tell the world "no more. Not here, mutants will be safe here."

The US government comes to the last place your people have left to push you around, make you look weak, and take away, not only one if the only new mutants you've spent your whole life fighting to save *from them* but the very one who holds the only hope for them.

You fight them and you're "childish". What the fuck ever.

>Whedon's Astonishing
kill urself

I mean yeah, the original outcom was achieved, and Hope has Phoenix in her. But for that to happen, Cyclops and co didn't have to get possessed and Xavier didn't have to die. Though Xavier dying is also partly his own damn fault.

Empathy shouldn't stop you from telling someone they're way the fuck out of line.

It does add up to it being a huge fucking gamble that they could. The PF bonded with two other people. One for a little while, the other for years but it turned her into a sun-eating world-destroying monster. Do you gamble on another Rachel happening by pure God damn luck, on the off chance it might create thousands of teenage superhumans just because a handful of people want that to happen really, really badly?

I would now just like to remind everyone that the thing that Scott was right about was that the only mutant born after M-Day was the key to bringing back the mutant race, and so her life was worth whatever and whoever needed to be sacrificed.
That was what he was right about.
The Utopia idea? That's just him being bonus-right.
Using the Phoenix Five to boost mutantkind's popularity with "Pax Utopia" when he had the chance? He was right about that too.
Killing Professor Brainrape? I think you know this one...

>conjecture
She was barely ready for it after getting training from people who had actual experience with doing just that, preparing young people to host the Phoenix. So, yeah, not even close to conjecture.

Exactly, not only was Hope pretty much trained to get the Phoenix Force, but she was bred from a family who's bread and butter for awhile now has been energy based mutant super powers and space pirate porno moustaches

None of that justifies endangering 7 billion lives. Yeah the government fucked them a lot. You don't risk the planet because you're butthurt about it.

>
>Begin at Deadly Genesis. Continue in Uncanny X-Men

Oh, you can skip Rise and Fall of Shi'ar Empire, which spun directly out of Deadly Genesis, but it's still worthwhile imo.

Nope.
She rekt Bastion with it, successfully. Without any prior usage of her mutant talents. Next.

>he was sad

He should have been sad and knocked on his ass for blowing up at what amounts to a teenaged refugee.

She wasn't hosting it when she fought Bastion, retard. Next.

But there is strong evidence that Hope lacked the skills necessary to channel the Phoenix towards productive ends without the experiences in Kun Luun, so if they trade off for mutant (abd perhaps human) survical is Cyclops becoming a murderer and Xavier dying, that seems like a pretty good deal.

Best modern run before M-Day.

get some taste plebian

Not a member of the family, try reading comics.

You obviously don't get it.
She IS the Phoenix distilled. Just cause she didn't have the whole of the bird inside her, doesn't mean she wasn't using it...because she IS it.

He was 't endangering 7 billion lives. That was shield, Captain Dickhead and Tony for interfering in shit they did not understand operating under advice from a psychopath who stabbed everyone in the event at least once.

Being stabbed hurts. No one hangs out with a dude who does that. They especially don't hang out with one who plans to stab little girls.

It was going to happen anyway though. The Phoenix Force was on its way to earth regardless, and it was going to try and get into Hope regardless. The X-Men just saw that as an opportunity to help save their almost extinct race.

I mean for gods sake, look how much absolute shit they had been through, with almost no help. They were realing to take a gamble because they were dying out. The Avengers weren't helping, the Fantastic Four wasn't helping, America wasn't helping, Shield wasn't helping, so they had to take a risk or otherwise, bam they're finished off.

Rachel wasn't just luck though, they used what they learned from Jean to help her through it. They were prepared, had everything laid out, then Tony was like lel im gonna shoot it

I don't live in comicbooks user.

(casual detected)

>tripfagging

Eh, it's kinda weird. Nobody knows exactly what happened with Hope's birth, but iirc, she's kinda spawned from Scott and the Phoenix's union.

So, Cable is Pericles and Hope is Heracles, in that their dad is sorta one's grand-x, and dad at the same time.
That's not a trip, casual-kun.

>So, Cable is Pericles and Hope is Heracles, in that their dad is sorta one's grand-x, and dad at the same time.
Actually just, ignore this part of my post. Cable and Hope aren't directly related, but it is kinda similar.

Cable treats her like one of his own, but thats in his style. Weird, sorta quite but not really Summers kids, or alternate timeline summers kids, usually stick together.

Its kinda sweet actually.

Scott knew that the Phoenix was going to save mutantkind, he used to date it, he lost his virginity to it, he even married it's alter-ego after years of being mind-linked to her.
If mutants can't trust Jean, who can they trust?

I feel unclean asking for this, but any Nate/Hope fanfic?

Cable. He's from the future.

No one would do that though cause Wolverine is the mutant darling.

back in the day he would have gotten what was coming to him.

Thats one of the reasons why I think without Tony going in, the whole thing would have been handled pretty well.

The Phoenix Force as a soft spot for Cyclops. If it wasn't his lover, then it was his daughter, or whatever. I feel like even if just for him, it would have gone into Hope to help out mutants.

I also feel like Scot's closeness with the Phoenix, is why he could keep control over himself so well when he went full out Dark Phoenix. Where as Jean had killed an entire race... Cyclops held back and only killed one man who was trying to mind attack him.

Has Cap yet followed up on his word to help out mutants more?

MAgneto has really taken a background role lately, hasn't he.

When he was raiding the island refuge and beating up their young he *was* helping.

Captain America has always been a fascist.

the android wasnt gonna let the five lights be around hope when the phoenix got there. and seeing as how cyclops didnt put every available psychic on hope(including all his kids) to help her train, he didnt have much of a strategy except assuming since she has red hair shes like jean and would be fine. even if hed had gotten to her after having the full phoenix inside him it would have ended in failure.mr masterplan didnt think too much about what he could have done

Okay, about the family:

Jean Grey and Phoenix have become part of each other, Rachel has confirmed this in the past canon.
Jean wasn't born a goddess of fire and rebirth but as The Phoenix has reality-altering abilities they're one and the same now, and to hear The Phoenix say it, they always were from the beginning of time.
Now that Phoenix that turned Dark Phoenix and killed an alien planet once, that both is and is not Jean. You see, she had mixed feelings about letting a cosmic being hijack her body and soul so originally The Phoenix split her into two people and only merged with the one that consented. The other one that joined the original X-Factor was left in a Phoenix egg at the bottom of Hammer Bay.
Now, The Phoenix Force itself doesn't die, so when that Dark Phoenix died the first time the bird decided to find another host off in another dimension, that's how Rachel got it, and presumably was pulled to it's home reality deliberately when she tried to time-travel.
Now ... I SHOULD mention the other hosts... eh, I'll stick to the red-heads.
(the Quire red-pill is nauseating)
But anyway, Hope is the spitting image of Jeanie, has profound untapped psi-abilities, manipulates mutant powers, links to all mutant abilities instinctively after having touched Rogue, and manifests the flame at a time when the rest of the 'Force had abandoned Earth. So she's either Jean, Jean's cosmic kid, Jean's reincarnation, or another fake Jean like the first Phoenix.

>Jean's cosmic kid
I think she's less Jean's kid and more /the Phoenix's/ even though they are the *same*.

I know their was some thing that went into Hope's lineage, but I can't for the life of me remember. Might've been one of the Messiah CompleX or SC supplements.

Uncanny Avengers,
that's his big helping handout to mutant/human relations right there.
No, no, let's not thank him too much for that, that's what Nobel Prizes are for.

Hes such a cunt

>Uncanny Avengers,
Which """he""" just disbanded lel

Remind me again? Can't remember what he did there

What if shes the future kid of the phoenix force, and young cyclops.

like a milfed up jean fucking some cutie lil cyclops, thats some ss shit right there son

You damned-well know...
He turned the team over to Cain in the secret hope that he would kill Abel.

I want my RIGHT brothers to tear some shit up.

That's Scott. Always turning the other cheek.

Remember when Scott just finished having a cismic entity beaten out of him and was put in prison and Alex dropped everything to spit in his face? Yeah. Good times.

Yeah, that's "Doormat" Summers alright.
I can't even begin to tell you what he's forgiven Emma for.
... or what that last straw finally was.

>... or what that last straw finally was.
She fucked a Fishman

>kurt was the only one who treated me like a man
But what about spiderman?

Didnt you invite him on your birthday

That's what happens when you kill the one person who matters

With Logan it's always exactly about how he feels at any given moment. There's no consistency to his self centeredness. He makes decisions and forces people to do things at knife point only to change his mind immediately once circumstances change in the slightest.

No one wants anyone like that in their life. But in comics?

>literally married to the last phoenix host
>in the process of training her to not fuck shit up
>suddenly the avengers come and try to take hope with absolutely no plan until the very end when they decide to go on a karate kid montage with Iron Fist as a last resort
>the person to help her release the phoenix is another mutant

That was my favorite Scott moment towards the end. It was the only time he put his foot down and stood up for himself.

The transformation from Boy Scout Cyclops to Rightclops is the greatest character arc of the Big 2 in the last two decades

First of all, it was a revenge-fuck for his own lack of monogamous-ity... Whatever...
Second, that was entirely accidental.
Third, even THAT wasn't actually it.

Spidey once called him a bad name or two during a cross-Atlantic spy adventure.
He hurt Logan's sensitive feels.
Kurt never made that mistake.

Cyclops only fucks one woman at a time. Usually. By the time he was mind fucking Emma, he and jean had been dead bedrooming it for months.

Who exactly was Scott cheating with then?

Funfact: it actually wasn't that big a character arc.

In fact, I can name the exact issue when he became the Osborn-threatening, Utopia-founding, confident killer Rightclops that fanboys have responded so well to.

I didn't realize it was so late. Gotta wake up early tomorrow. Bye.

Name the issue fggt.

It's the one where he kicks Professor X out

>Magneto tries but he's surrounded by bitch muggas
Haha, it's funny cos it's true.

friends call each other bad names all the time
fake friends would be super nice to you all the time

Fuking logan, forgetting his bromance with peter

t. Stormfag.

Huh, news to me. I've never cared for Storm. Whedon's run is poop. Breakworld was the only good part.

Nope.
He was wrong when he thought that Hope was ready to take the Phoenix and restart the mutant race. If the Avengers hadn't intervened, Hope would of either gone Dark Phoenix or Wolverine would have had to kill her.
He was wrong about his revolution, he himself admitted it was just him having a mental breakdown and had no plan whatsoever.
He was wrong about attacking Attilan. He had absolutely NOTHING to gain from doing it, and he only made things worse.
And he was wrong about plenty of other things, but those are the big ones.

Go home Hank. It's over. No one wants you anywhere.

Fuck off Hank.

>Impying I don't also think that Hank is a hypocritical idiot

Well, they by your admission you're agreeing with a hypocritical idiot. You're not one of those "too smart to choose a side" guys are you?

>thinks anyone cares which posts are yours
>thinks anyone cares when your bedtime is
>probably learned to think this posting in shitty generals
Namefags were a mistake.

Yes he was

The problem is not about having the phoenix, but if the woman is a drama queen or not. Jean loves her drama, Rachel is more chill.

No, I just think that Hank almost breaking time just to teach Scott a lesson was dumb, among many other stupid things he's done.
People forget, Hank isn't the only X-Man that hates Scott, and the X-Men have already kicked Hank out.

Scott, please go back to the White Hot Room

Hope you die in your sleep.

>Hank isn't the only X-Man that hates Scott
Most of the X-Men are fucking cunts. What else is new?

And Cyclops is a sissy

How much shit they had gone through and how little help they had gotten absolutely do not give them the right to make that kind of decision that affects everyone on the planet.

I love that x-force leaves with him

Do you have the Emma and Cyclops Phoenix Five set of panels where she admits she tortures a family and needs help?

Yeah, well, they're probably miffed too, they've just lost a couple people by this point.

He's making a joke about the overall trend of Marvel.

>implying the current X-stories are quality.

Nice joke.

>They start doing all that nice stuff

>Welding the St. Andreas Fault shut

Could you give me some details about that retcon please?

Get off this board casual.

Fuck Mccoy, you are a traitor

>Whedon apologists
Really, you are the casuals.

The run was not good. Ellis's first issue was better than the entire Whedon run.

Do you guys just Bendis Rachel Grey-Summers out every time you throw out this reasoning?

I'm sorry, but can you parse this for me?

>Hank isn't the only X-Man that hates Scott

If there's anything comics have shown of late is that the X-gene also turns you into a god damned hypocrite. Being part Summers is the only cure.

No wonder Sinister was so interested in him.

>The run was not good.

Cred Forums, where opinions are facts if you're autistic enough.

Literally the only thing people remember about it is to "meme's my x-memes."
Even if it isn't bad, it's not worth reading when you cmpare it to Morrison or Ellis.