"Change the future or protect the future?" doesn't have the same primal appeal that "Whose side are you on...

>Would a stronger, more socially relevant hook have made it better?
I mean, the "socially relevant hook" is "profiling." It's just handled in a fucking awful way.

To that end, a more "socially relevant hook" wouldn't really make any difference if the same person was writing it because it would have the same result as the current socially relevant hook's piss poor handling.

Both were shit, though. We don't need more Silver Age crap in our comics in 2016. We have to address some problematic stuff, instead of sweeping it under the rug with cosmic blip-blop comic book-y events.

Used a cosmic cube to create a fictional town called Pleasant Hill in which supervillain convicts have their appearances, identities and history altered to become happy citizens with normal lives.

The most retarded thing about this event is, unlike the first Civil War which had a somewhat logical issue that turned into a completely pointless fight, this one doesn't even have a good issue to fight over. Of course it makes sense to use a kid who can 100% predict the future to stop bad things from happening. But because this has to be a Civil War, Carol is doing it in the most ass fucked way possible. For example, you don't think that maybe, possibly gathering all the heroes to confront the Hulk might have been what caused him to become the Hulk and kill everyone? Or how about remove a few of the heroes that the Hulk was supposed to kill from play, thus making that future impossible because those heroes couldn't possibly be there to be killed. Its like if I said, "In three weeks an airplane will go down." Okay, we know an airplane will go down. We don't know why. We don't know if it is mechanical, terrorist related, or if a fucking duck will fly into the turbine. There are so many factors that could go into making a future event happen and Carol and her side just take the most heavy handed approach in stopping it possible, so much so that Ms. Marvel is running a fucking concentration camp for maybe criminals.

Did Carol even test the kid before jumping completely on his band wagon? I know he stopped Thanos and a Celestial or something, but those are two things that absolutely need the big guns to take down. But what about the smaller ones? Did she try stopping a bank robber by talking with him first? Did she wait and see if a rapist would actually follow that woman down the alley before cracking him in the skull? Or is it like the woman with the empty briefcase where she just attacks first before even the slightest hint of anything happens so she's left looking like a complete Nazi?

Long story short, Carol's side is right, but the way they go about it is beyond fucked.

>We have to address some problematic stuff, instead of sweeping it under the rug with cosmic blip-blop comic book-y events.

You are the cancer that is ruining superhero comics.

Did they ever adress how fucked up some of the Villians were mentally afterwards? I mean fucking Crusher got depressed as shitn

Civil War I was social commentary. Shitty social commentary, but still, social commentary. If you're going to make a sequel to it, the assumption is that the sequel would also tackle social commentary. Which they did with the hamfisted "profiling" analog. It's just an even stupider analog than Superhero Registration = Gun Control/Patriot Act.

But then at least CWII is more in the spirit of CWI than SWII was to SWI.
Secret Wars I
>Epic event about superheroes and supervillains fighting each other in a big arena match then teaming up to defeat a god-like Dr. Doom
>countless iconic scenes that still get homaged today
>no direct tie-ins but major repercussions for many of the characters involved

Secret Wars II
>Jim Shooter turns villain from SWI into a self-insert that walks around philosophizing about the meaning of life
>only iconic scene is Spider-man teaching him how to poop
>linewide tie-ins as far as the eye can see yet no major repercussions
For as awful as Civil War II is, at least it's not Secret Wars II.

Gets brought up in Thunderbolts, Captain America, and would have been a major plotpoint in Illuminati had that not gotten cancelled right as standoff ended.

>Civil War I was social commentary.

on what?

Maybe try reading the rest of the post before replying?

Freedom vs. Safety. It was supposed to be government regulation vs. libertarianism but Millar's got no grasp on American ideals about political systems.

You got me, I didn't finish reading the rest when I posted. I apologize.

>For as awful as Civil War II is, at least it's not Secret Wars II.

At this point I think I'd rather read Secret Wars II than Civil War II.

I love the uniforms of the SHIELDvengers from that run.

OP, why aren't you using an actual Civil War II image?

Just got a random Marvel image.

Fair enough.

So far the only permutation of Carol's new design I like.

Many comic books are social commentaries you fucking spastic, even if it isn't always apparent.

Superman is the social commentary on the immigrant experience in the United States

Captain America was basically created in line with the social commentary of the day, i.e. Slap a Jap, kick the fuck out of the Fuhrer

Spider-Man, the Hulk, Fantastic Four and the X-Men were all created according to social commentary on the atomic bomb and nuclear/radioactive power in general. Those early comics are drenched in Cold War.

Don't start complaining now because the social commentaries of the day are things you disagree with mate.

I feel like this is bait.
But it doesn't look like copypasta, and I doubt someone would type that much just for bait.

He's right though.

He's not wrong, you know?

It's not bait mate, I was serious.

FUCK TONS of comics are social commentaries.

Even The Dark Knight Returns is sometimes seen as a commentary on 80's America

Don't be such a mong.

Hiding a bait response by calling out false bait

Well played

...fuck. We've been had lads.

Only thing I'd say is that some is less "commentary" and more just reflection--Hulk/Spidey

The entire notion that radiation = unknown mutations/ effects is pure cold war fear of the bomb, sure Spidey got powers, but Banner got cursed. As did thing.

The fear was the unknown effects

Yes but just cause plenty of comics have done social commentary doesn't mean they HAVE TO.
And he'll your reply to my post was making it seem like you think all of Superman is a social commentary on the immigrant experience, which is fucking stupid to think every story of his 75+ years existing are.

Hell* not he'll
Fucking autocorrect

Add to the list:

Green Lantern/Green Arrow is blatantly social commentary
Gerber's Howard the Duck is social commentary
Steve Englehart's Captain America is also partly social commentary
I'm pretty sure Claremont's X-Men had social commentary.
And I'm pretty damn sure a lot of the British Invasion writers did social commentary.

Most of the people complaining about social commentary in comics either don't read comics in general and just try to fit in these threads or they only read comics in maybe the last 10 years.

The only difference between now and the stuff back then is just more about execution of the idea.

>issues like gun control and police brutality
Man that is even a left leaning way of framing those issues. I hate noticing shit like this anymore.

Social Commentary having been done in comics before doesn't necessarily make social commentary in comics a good or entertaining thing.

Just because they don't HAVE to doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't.

As it is, the first Civil War could be seen as a commentary on post 9/11 fears where mistrust turned inward. No longer would the notion of an organisation like the Avengers fly when some of them are walking WMD's

Did you miss the post 9/11 shift in comics where they became less and less about the good guy triumphing and more and more about the heroes having to fight against a world seemingly doomed to fail, to fall to the vilains.

In Grant Morrison's Supergods he literally called the chapter "The Day Evil Won" and think what you want about Morrison's writing, he wasn't wrong about the direction comics in general took.

My point being, why be so salty about the idea that Civil War II might be a social commentary when that's exactly what the first one was.

>Is IGN correct about Civil War II, Cred Forums? Would a stronger, more socially relevant hook have made it better?
No. I'm sick of socially relevant stories in my fucking superhero comics.

Because it isn't doing the social commentary well, and they're saying the way to fix it is to do a different bit of social commentary.
Why not consider no social commentary as an option for a comic event.

>I'm sick that social commentary, the very basis of many superheroes is in my fucking superhero comics

>implying anyone cares about USA social commentary

>Some characters were made as a social commentary
>Some comic stories were created as a social commentary
>Treat it like it is the majority and act surprised if someone doesn't like social commentary

A story doesn't need to be socially relevant in order to be a good story. It just has to be written well. Civil War 2 is not written well.

>Most early Marvel characters were social commentary
>Civil War I was a social commentary
>Complain at the idea of Civil War II being a social commentary

I'm complaining that Civil War II is bad social commentary
And simply think that it'd have been better off without any Social commentary in general. Especially considering that no matter what commentary it was going for it prolly would have been handled poorly.
Because CivilWarII is shit in every other part of it, why expect the social commentary to be the thing it pulls off well?

>And simply think that it'd have been better off without any Social commentary in general.

It'd have been better off without a Civil War 2 in general. Or at least, one without Bendis writing it. Getting mad at modern social commentary in general would be missing the point about why CW2 is terrible.

But social commentary is a big part of why it's awful as well since it's trying very hard to comment on society and it falls flat so hard that it's embarrassing.

>We don't need more Silver Age crap in our comics in 2016

Don't know if you're being facetious or not but fuck you, that's exactly what we need.

>or if a fucking duck will fly into the turbine
HOWARD NOOOO

>capes trying to be DEEP

At this point, I'd welcome that twist with open arms.

>Why not consider no social commentary as an option for a comic event.
That's all fine and good, unless you're doing a SEQUEL. It'd be one thing if this was called "Future War" but it wasn't. It was "Civil War II." Even if it's a blatant cashgrab, it's still a numbered sequel to the original Civil War.

That's just because Bendis is not that good at social commentary and less about making social commentary itself.

Oh jesus we have enough hamfisted politics in comics.

>>The only difference between now and the stuff back then is just more about execution of the idea.
And frankly, there were plenty of instances of poorly handled social commentary back then too, it's just that we tend to forget the bad or mediocre comics (unless they're egregiously bad) while only really remembering the good ones, whereas we tend to only focus on the bad/mediocre ones while ignoring the good when it comes to modern comics because people get an endorphin rush from bitching and moaning.

>Is IGN correct about Civil War II, Cred Forums? Would a stronger, more socially relevant hook have made it better?
Yes.

For instance, someone pointing out how many people die when superheroes fight a bad guy in the streets, due to buildings falling down, radiation, etc.

This one single page is better than the whole CW2 event has been.

Exactly. If you stripped everything about "profiling" from the comic, it'd still be exactly as vapid and poorly written as it is now because the problem isn't "social commentary." The problem is "Bendis."

>the problem is "Bendis"
This. Fuck, over 75% of Marvel's problems can be traced back to this fat fuck.

Social Commentary isn't what caused She-Hulk to fall into a coma just because she got hit by a missile to the chest.

>But what about the smaller ones? Did she try stopping a bank robber by talking with him first? Did she wait and see if a rapist would actually follow that woman down the alley before cracking him in the skull? Or is it like the woman with the empty briefcase where she just attacks first before even the slightest hint of anything happens so she's left looking like a complete Nazi?

Funny you ask that, because Luke Cage pretty much answers this question. In short, Carol really doesn't give a shit. She only slightly pretends to be reasonable before pulling out the guns and immediately shooting.

...

Ah so the ditched carol's dyke hair, manly body, andro suit and started playing up her binary powers some more.
And single female spider person with an illigitimate lesbian butt baby now has miles power set...for some raison.
Oh and black widow and hawkeye are over there along with who in the fuck thought it was a good idea to make him into cap america man!

Then we have black bolt..who could wipe out everyone on the fucking field by stepping on a lego and mutter "ouch".
The incredible dumbass.
Some random grey asshole and
Black boredom Mr.Fan..I thought he was dead or stuck in between universes or some silliness
Followed by just in time for the more then likely trash movie strange.
GREEAAAAT.

If played correctly it would be the most clever and funny self aware deconstruction/story ending in comic book history.

All it would need is spiderman and deadpool figuring it out and doing stuff behind the scenes so they can save the day.

Stick to Cred Forums, champ. Probably a bit more your speed.

Ironically, this is literally the plot of Zdarsky's Howard the Duck.

>"oh it was actually Mojo making a new series."
They'd be accused of ripping Rebirth off.

They chose that look, those people and their new powers for a reason stupid.
It just exists to tie into the movies in a sideways manner.

It's Marvel. No matter what they do, they'll get accused of ripping off DC.

How?
Because it woudn't even be the first time Mojo has done something like this.

Stick to Cred Forums, champ. Probably a bit more your speed.

And it even deals with a similar topic: precognition. And it does it in a better and more entertaining way. I'm not a big King fan, but Bendis isn't good enough to even lick King's shit.

That comic picture is not current.
I'm confused as to why OP was lazy like he was, but oh well.

Also, that was Hickman, who isn't a poopoo writer and no longer works at Marvel.

Why the fuck does Carol insist on trying to talk to someone calmly with an army behind her and then act surprised when they get pissed

I don't even care anymore. The whole thing just makes me sick.

Rebirth: the New 52 was actually an alternate universe created by, gasp, Dr. Manhattan

Sounds like Battleworld to me, just stretched out over 5 years out time.

I made a thread like this and got called a retard.

That's because while DC has their time in the sun no one wants to mention how similar it is to something Marvel did. You're not retarded, you were right.

Hell, I don't even see the big deal. Convergence/Rebirth was almost assuredly in the works already when Secret Wars came out, and Hickvengers was just a D.C. Crisis in Marvel form.

Company Loyalists are fucking weird man, don't try to understand them, just enjoy DC Battleworld for now.

I wonder if anyone would voluntarily go to Pleasant Hill.
I mean obviously supervillains wouldn't because they break out of prison in a week tops, but it'd be nicer than actual prison. The issue is, I guess, how much of your personality has to be suppressed before it's no longer you?

Spider-Woman always had the dumb venom blasts. She had them first. Miles is the copycat.

Iron Man should have killed BLM protestors.

[spoilers] So he would be the one on the right side this time.

so Identity Crisis

>Superman is the social commentary on the immigrant experience in the United States

Nah, originally it was just a power fantasy/action-adventure deal, social commentary and the immigrant factor became more relevant later on.

>Captain America was basically created in line with the social commentary of the day, i.e. Slap a Jap, kick the fuck out of the Fuhrer

Yeah, literal war propaganda. Imagine if Captain America was being used today to push involvement in Syria and you'll see why that idea is pretty much dead
.
>Spider-Man, the Hulk, Fantastic Four and the X-Men were all created according to social commentary on the atomic bomb and nuclear/radioactive power in general. Those early comics are drenched in Cold War.

Out of all of those, the Hulk is the only thing that deals with the threat of nuclear weapons. The Fantastic Four is just goofy sci-fi adventures, Spider Man is about a heroic underdog, and the X-Men were an analogy for black people.

This. Good social commentary presents an issue and maybe also offers the author's opinion but isn't overtly aggressive about it. It's designed to present ideas to the reader for their own consideration, all with subtlety, tact, and a bit of nuance. Jack Kirby's Fourth World is great at this- Darkseid is a bit of an abstract critique of totalitarianism and the totalitarian/authoritarian mindset, but presented in a subtle enough way that the reader doesn't feel like the writer is trying to pull an Ayn Rand and lecture him on what is good and evil.

the X-Men were literally called the children of the atom

>Cred Forums-tard can't even spoiler right

And that meant literally nothing.

>All these references to radioactivity and atomic power had absolutely no input from a society at the height of the cold war with the ever looming threat of nuclear bombs being dropped on them

Sure mate.

Because you didn't read the novel they're named after.

My favorite piece of social commentary in a comic is the Question #15 when Vic has to work with a vehement racist and right in the middle of ranting how much he hates him the guy takes a bullet for Vic, dies and is remembered as a hero. It's a such a WTF moment.

Where the hell did God Reed Richards come from?

It was more that radiation was this amazing new phenomena and like all amazing new phenomena, sci-fi writers used it as a convenient plot device to explain otherwise incredible things

You're taking an incredibly narrow-minded and reductionist view of comic history

DIE CANCER! YOU POISION!

>new
It was already known in the 50s, you uncultured swine.

Social commentary in fiction doesn't need to be subtle at all to be good or interesting. That's just what people say when they see social commentary they don't like.

Radiation's prevalence in society was due to the cold war and nuclear fears you fucking spastic, the only reason why it was there was because of how much people heard that radiation was going to kill them if the blast didn't.

If you don't think the prevalence of the idea of radiation in 1960's society isn't social commentary then more power to you my friend, but you'd be wrong.

I referenced Ayn Rand for a reason, you know.

Your social commentary can be as blunt as you want but the story still needs to be good, take TNG's the Drumhead. There's no subtlety at all but it's a well written story.

So how long until we get a cover where people are protesting Miles' imprisonment wearing BLM t-shirts and having their fists in the air.

There's a difference between using it in a vague/wide net allegorical sense and having it completely overrun your works. Gruenwald's Cap was political by nature but it was still very much a superhero story and it wasn't written to shove left wing or right wing morals down your throat; Cap's a political guy and Gruenwald set out to give Cap villains (on both sides of the political spectrum) that reflected that.

Claremont's Uncanny has the prejudice angle but it's so broad it can be applied to any situation: racism, homophobia, even something as simple as feeling like an outcast in society like being the weird loner kid in school or something. It's easy to project onto and most of the time their stories still dealt with more mystical or sci-fi elements with any of the prejudice stuff usually being things simmering in the background, a part of the overall world the stories built.

Compare that to Captain Falcon where the entire run has been built around Spencer screaming his political opinions in your face. Cops are bad, BLM is great, wanting immigration control makes you a Nazi, not liking the idea of Cap being replaced makes you a sexist, etc. It's not a superhero comic that uses social commentary to enhance the superheroics, it's a political screed in tights.

He doesn't get imprisoned, Carol lets him go.

Yes and no to this. I mean, there is a reason that something like God Loves, Man Kills is considered one of the best comics that exist today and we all hate Civil War II.

See God Loves, Man Kills is something that can be enjoyed throughout the ages as it has a clear and powerful message about bigotry. However, Civil War II is a bad event as Bendis seems to be more concerned about controversy then telling a good story.

That's the biggest problem with all this event shit he tries to do. He doesn't try to tell a story which will last the test of time. Because if you want to do a story about an important issue that's essential.

Instead, he just throws characters into situation after situation and calls that a 'plot'.

Who's the black guy with the hat?

>Long story short, Carol's side is right,

I kinda doubt it. Can't Ulysses mind. Didn't consider that Kang/Mr Sinister or Mind/Time gems could be pulling out prophet's strings. If something looks too good to be true...

>Is IGN correct about Civil War II, Cred Forums? Would a stronger, more socially relevant hook have made it better?
>Can Bendis produce anything of quality regardless of the premise?
There was a shitload of potential here in the Minority Report aspect and like free will vs determinism and just how preemptive can you be in taking action before you're policing thought crime, and all of it could be compelling and resonate with the audience if it were handled by a writer with even a shred of competency. This sort of story becomes more and more relevant with each day we move closer to an Orwellian state through the prevalence and power of communication technology. There is no excuse for what Bendis has made this become. Just compare the tie-ins written by other people to the main event book and you can see where the fault in cw2's failure lies.

Centurius

Mariah Hill planned to go live on pleasant hill before shit went down

Someday my grandchildren will ask me "grandpappy, where were you when even the online reviewers stopped shilling for Marvel?"

the FUCK is Monica doing there?

why in the FUCK would she be on Carol's side?

why would ANY X-men be on the fucking Authoritarian side?

so... the inevitable is going to happen, a "prediction" will show Carol doing something horrific, and Carol will break her own morals and not immediately turn her self in and instead continue on.

its inevitable, she simply doesn't have the moral backbone to take it like she deals it, she's always been a broken, half-person either drunk on power or simply drunk.

>Is IGN correct about Civil War II, Cred Forums? Would a stronger, more socially relevant hook have made it better?

Hell no. Bendis would still be writing it, thus further obfuscating any point the story would have.

Marvel's never going to have relevant, hard-hitting social commentary again as long as it employs hacks with an ethos of "outrage = guranteed sales".

Vision is better than everything Marvel has produced for the last 20 years.

Because she needs backup so she still feels like the good guy in this and also having witnesses should things go south...

"You all saw that, right? The unreasonable negro threatened me first!"

The day when they stop shilling for the MCU is the day hell freezes over though.

Isn't Hulk also Man vs his nature.

At some points the Hulk is in some ways besides strength better than Banner.

>>only iconic scene is Spider-man teaching him how to poop

Modern Jekyll and Hyde.

The problem isn't the idea but the writer. With the right writer, any idea can end up as an interesting story. Bendis is not one of those writers.

Why not just kill them?

I don't understand SHIELD's ethics at all.

>social commentary

if you're looking for social commentary, racial profiling, oppressed minorities, oppression... that's already handled in x-men comics.

let me guess though. Beast who would have the most to say about that has the fewest lines?

>Why does a comic book event have to be a social commentary?

If a comic is going to be aggressively shitty, the least it can do is mean something. If the story was actually good on its own merits, no one would give a shit about social commentary.

>Nah, originally it was just a power fantasy/action-adventure deal, social commentary and the immigrant factor became more relevant later on.

Are you kidding me? His first appearance is him taking out mobsters that were oppressing the common man. It was literally pressing commentary during the depression, when mobsters were literally oppressing everyone.

Also Shuster and Seigel were the children of immigrants and very intentionally drew on that for Superman.

You fucking idiot.

Storm is the official house negro of Marvel now