Okay Cred Forums

Tell me one good reason they should be canon
They have literally no reason to be together besides "muh ship". They were together in BTAS, but Harley would always run back to Joker so it's not like they had any romance together. You can go on about subtext all day long but they were never a thing until N52, which had the worst rendition of Harley.
You say characters can evolve, but why should Harley's evolution be to jump from one insane murderer to a different insane murderer? That's not evolution, that's just shipping, which is retarded in cape comics since it will inevitably be retconned away.

Because I find Ivy having any form of actualy sexual desire weird, an incredibly flirty asexual sure but otherwise eh

1.Because it makes absolutely no sense for a character that has environmental protection in its core to be in love with a character that destroys everything around her because lulz.
2.Because Poison Ivy always had a thing for Batman which gave a second layer to their interactions and now this is forgotten because muh ship.
3. Because it brings nothing in terms of narrative other than "sexy scenes"

>tell me one good reason
>btw these 10 other perfectly good reasons don't count

Nice argument, you totally convinced me

>Because Ivy never shown interest in females before Dini shipped her with Harley.

And? Character can and should change, otherwise they'll be one note and the capacity of their stories suffers

>Because Ivy can do much better than Harley

Nah, Harley is the perfect choice for Ivy. Harley is the outgoing character that can make Ivy face her human side and giving her a good laugh now and then

>Because it's kinda weird that the three most popular Batman female villains are now gay. I guess in Gotham you either want to fuck Batman or go lesbian

Yeah 'cause there shouldn't be variety and every relationship should be heterosexual

>there shouldn't be variety
Variety for the sake of variety is pointless, tumblr.

Instead of asking why they shouldn't be together, we should be asking why they should be.

Ivy works fine what does not work is ivy without having to compete with the joker.

If your gonna cut her from the joker cut her from ivy as well (or at the very least dont fucking start your reboot without any joker compition to give the relasionship context)

I can give you a tons of reasons

1) Harley can have someone that cares about her while at the same time giving her freedom to her own character

2) Ivy can have someone that shows her that facing her human side and not being 100% plant is good

3) It gives Ivy more character than simply seductress, it gives her more depth

4) Ivy have more characterization than simply walking bombshell

How is it weird? Ivy always used her sexuality as weapon

>Because it's kinda weird that the three most popular Batman female villains are now gay. I guess in Gotham you either want to fuck Batman or go lesbian
>catwoman
Pretty dam sure she still craves the batcock bisexual maybe
>harley
The ivy thing has been around since her very first ongoing
>thaila
Barely ever goes to gotham

>1.Because it makes absolutely no sense for a character that has environmental protection in its core to be in love with a character that destroys everything around her because lulz.

You can say the same about Damian & Bats. Why would he raise a killer since his whole reason for being Batman is because of a killer

>2.Because Poison Ivy always had a thing for Batman which gave a second layer to their interactions and now this is forgotten because muh ship.

Batman has other loves interest, it's not like both are going to suffer.

>3. Because it brings nothing in terms of narrative other than "sexy scenes"

That's what you think, but a good writer can bring something interesting into the table for them, like how they personality crashes but they stay together or how Harley trust was enough to break Ivy walls or anything really

>harley can have someone who cares for her
and that's good why?

>ivy has someone to show her that humans can be good
and that's good for a plant-supremacist villain why?

>romance gives character depth
not necessarily

>ivy should have more characterisation than bombshell
she already has

Your suggestions look as if they aim for a more "good" versions of the characters. They're mass murdering supervillains that are batshit insane. Having Harley have someone who cares for her or Ivy not wanting to exterminate humanity is in no way necessary. In fact, it's the opposite. They're not quirky girls that have fun in kuhrazzee ways, they're freaking murderers. Your soap opera is irrelevant.

>Variety for the sake of variety is pointless, tumblr.

It's not variety for the sake of it, rather for the good of a character that really needed it

>Instead of asking why they shouldn't be together, we should be asking why they should be.

I've been giving good reasons as why they should. Really my question is more appropriate than yours

>Cut her from Ivy

But why?. Ivy is the only friend Harley has, cutting Ivy from Harley is cutting any stories that she might have, it's actually damaging the character

>Pretty dam sure she still craves the batcock bisexual maybe
Batcock craving is unisex and bisexual is still gay

>The ivy thing has been around since her very first ongoing
Dini been wanting it since the cartoon along with Bats and Zatanna.
>thaila
>Barely ever goes to gotham
Ivy is part of the top three not Talia al Ghul.

You're giving shitty reasons.

>It's not variety for the sake of it, rather for the good of a character that really needed it
So you are saying that Ivy needed to be gay to improve her character. That being gay make Ivy a better character than she was before.

>>harley can have someone who cares for her
>and that's good why?

Because it opens more opportunities for stories, a character story shouldn't be 100% suffering and angst

>>ivy has someone to show her that humans can be good
>and that's good for a plant-supremacist villain why?

Because it gives her internal conflict between her human vs plant side, again open opportunity for more stories

>>romance gives character depth
>not necessarily

A good written romance can give a character depth, granted this is comics so maybe I'm asking too much

>>ivy should have more characterisation than bombshell
>she already has

How? Anti-hero Ivy? Everything I've read it's the same plant Lord Ivy

>Your suggestions look as if they aim for a more "good" versions of the characters.

I'm asking for more depth than the simple one-note role that they have, they can (and should) still be villains

They're mass murdering supervillains that are batshit insane. Having Harley have someone who cares for her or Ivy not wanting to exterminate humanity is in no way necessary.

Again wrong. Harley having someone caring and her gives her a chance to rethink her relationship with Joker, and Ivy having someone in her mind other than plants gives her more variety

In fact, it's the opposite. They're not quirky girls that have fun in kuhrazzee ways, they're freaking murderers. Your soap opera is irrelevant.

I know they aren't. I'm not asking for a 180 on the characters, but rather an expansion of what there's are in them

Can you really tell me that Ivy was a good character before?

>more opportunities for stories
that's the same for any additional trait, that doesn't explain why having someone who cares for her is the extra trait that's needed

>internal conflict
it makes her a blatant hypocrite and her motivation seems less impactful

>plant lord
so, clearly, not just a bombshell

>expansion
expansions shouldn't run contrary to already established traits

>rethink her relationship with the joker
>have something other than plants in mind
and batman should stop grieving over his parents' death, right?

Extra traits shouldn't run contrary to already established ones, especially to the core aspects of a character that are tied to their origins. You can expand a character, in other ways, than diluting what makes them who they are.

How was she a bad character?

>Harley having someone caring and her gives her a chance to rethink her relationship with Joker, and Ivy having someone in her mind other than plants gives her more variety
You do know that you can care for someone and not want to fuck them. This is possible.

>>more opportunities for stories
>that's the same for any additional trait, that doesn't explain why having someone who cares for her is the extra trait that's needed

Because it's the only one that she has other than the children thing back No Man's Land

>>internal conflict
>it makes her a blatant hypocrite and her motivation seems less impactful

A villain being hypocrite? You don't say

>>plant lord
>so, clearly, not just a bombshell

The plant Lord is core to the character lime Harley craziness is

>>expansion
>expansions shouldn't run contrary to already established traits

But it doesn't, it's been there for 20+ years

>>rethink her relationship with the joker
>>have something other than plants in mind
>and batman should stop grieving over his parents' death, right?

TellTale is doing it, andI think it's good

>Extra traits shouldn't run contrary to already established ones, especially to the core aspects of a character that are tied to their origins. You can expand a character, in other ways, than diluting what makes them who they are.

I already said it doesn't run contrary to her core, the fact that nobody has gone deeper is another thing entirely

I'm not asking for a sexual relationship or based on sex. I'm asking for a more meaningful relationship (or as meaningful it can get with villain) sex just come with it but its NOT the main fact or point

>you don't say
villains don't have to be hypocrites

>is core to the character
and shows her character isn't just bombshell

>it's been there for 20+ years
wrongfully show, dilutes the core

>doesn't run contrary
yes. I care for harley runs contrary to I care only for plants. End of story.

>telltale is doing it and it's good
>batman coming over his grief is good
Okay, okay, I see.

AHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHA

>Tell me one good reason why these two shouldn't be canon
Has anyone argued that, ever?
Harley going for Ivy gives her an interesting twist and kind of makes her pining for Joker look a bit like pining for love in general, meaning Joker simply exploited it (making him even more of a scumbag).
Question is if you make Ivy return the feelings or make her simply take advantage of Harley as well. But there's nothing wrong with a bit of villain romance.

as you see, in sirens, harley doesn't care for ivy. ivy cares for harley and is taking advantage of her.

> inb4 but they are canon

Are you an idiot?

They have the best realationship etheir is capable of. Just because you think murderous psychopaths should become tumblr styled Suzy Homemakers doesn't change the fact that YES THEY ARE CANON.

> Their not a couple because they don't fit my personal definition of a couple.

That is so stupid not even tumblr wants ya.

This whole thread is about them being romantically involved with each other. Sex is usually a part of that and I don't see how make a character gay means they won't have sex. You want them to be close friends? Okay, but don't they have to be in romantic love with each other for a meaningful relationship to happen. Look at Blue Beetle and Booster Gold. They are the bestest of friends but no one turned both of them gay to achieve that.

Well not to burst bubbles or anything but Harley and Ivy's relationship has always been sexual. Its not like they were besties for years then Timm Bruce made them bisexual. No they were having sex on day one of their first meeting.

Yes in the cartoon but not in the comic which is what I thought we were talking about.

Hey i'm just fucking with you ok?
But I know who you are.

But that's what I'm been saying
Sex is just part of it, and their relationship shouldn't be based on that

...

It only exists for sexual fanservice to male readers

Do I do it right? Am I cool now?

>their relationship shouldn't be based on that
It will be because of the simple fact that you had to change someone's orientation just so they can have any type of relationship with each other.

because Ivy is almost as abusive as the Joker

Because they are criminals and should be executed

... and?

I love how desperate bigots still vomit this "argument" after it's been demolished a million times.

Almost like conservatives are cowards....

>almost as abusive the joker
That's a load of shit.

Because who gives a fuck?
They're trash characters and always have been.

I'm male and I want something beyond fanservice, we had 20+ years of that

That's a load of crap and you know it

Stop with this meme, Ivy is in no way more or equal as abusive as Joker

Every character is a trash character when you think about it

>Every character is a trash character when you think about it
Then why are you still going on about this?
The writers aren't here, they're not reading your stupid shit, they're not going to do what you think is right.
Why are you still going on about your ship?

Pretty sure that was the case in the comics too. They met, they became friends, they fucked and Ivy has been considered a lesbian ever since.

For the sake of discussion or what? Do you want another Cred Forums or Cred Forums thread?, besides this discussion was bound to happen someday

I'd rather Cred Forums and Cred Forums threads over your ship, yes.

You're whats wrong with Cred Forums

So shipping is a good thing, then?
You consider getting assblasted about your dyke ship a good thing for the board?

Fuck off, faggot.

Why do you people constantly take the fucking bait? Just let them make their silly MUH DICK pairing post and move on. Eventually they'll grow bored and go back to tumblr.

I don't think Harley and Ivy have the same chemistry they did in the animated series. They're different characters now, which is fine, but it's not selling me on their relationship now.

I really liked Harley and Powergirl as a duo, but not as a couple. Not everybody has to fuck, they can just be pals!

No, I consider talking about a Cred Forums thing good, I consider talking about Cred Forums characters in Cred Forums material good. I consider having discussion about Cred Forums things in Cred Forums good

You fuck off

>Not everybody has to fuck, they can just be pals!
you say that about everyone we think should fuck.

So you say they need to do this to expand their characterizations and grow?

Tell me why they need to be lesbians instead of close friends in order to accomplish this.

>Tell me one good reason why these two shouldn't be canon
Tell us one good reason other than 'mandatory lesbians' why they SHOULD be canon.

Burden of proof lies on your faggot head.

As a heterosexual male, I wouldn't wish having to fuck men on anybody.

This conversation is way too genial for a debate about homosexuality on Cred Forums.

Because sexual tension is more interesting to watch than a full-on relationship. Because where else is there to go after that? Do you want them to get married? Adopt some third world children? Go on bird watching hikes together? What you want is not what makes for a story that will drive sales.

Poison Ivy used to like boys?

Well, that's not ENTIRELY true
>"a-hyuck, harley quinn munches carpet with poison ivy now, fellas! read dem dere comics! give Margot Robbie a girlfriend!"

>So you say they need to do this to expand their characterizations and grow?

Yes

>Tell me why they need to be lesbians instead of close friends in order to accomplish this.

Because a relationship is the next step for them, the "will do/won't they" stuff got old, now it's time to stop the subtext. Bombshells ain't good in a lot of things but at least it took Harley/Ivy to their next logical step

I already did, read the thread

>Because sexual tension is more interesting to watch than a full-on relationship.

The sexual tension got old after the 99th time that DC used it

>Because where else is there to go after that? Do you want them to get married? Adopt some third world children? Go on bird watching hikes together? What you
>want is not what makes for a story that will drive sales.

How do you know?. It's never been proven

Because he is a shipper. He can't see people being in any other relationship than a romantic one.

That's a good thing.

Like a proper Bat character, pottery about trying to redeem through love, and ending up crazier.

Batman, Penguin, Twoface, Victor....

Fuck you know your stupid bullshit doesn't help your case. It only makes people hate this ship and these cancerous characters even more.

To not encourage shipperfags like you

Because Ivy is a trash, one note, token lesbian character whenever she is paired with Harley.

Keeping them separate increases the quality of both characters.

"I want them to be lesbians" isn't a counter-argument, chucklefuck. Neither is "I don't like subtext."

Shipper fags are the worst.

>they have to be full-on lesbians now because the subtext is getting repetitive

That's a matter of taste rather than character development.

In theory, they could keep the subtext going until you and I are both dead and still accomplish all the other stuff you brought up.

t. Pamela Isley

Ivy openly seduced both all along.

But she never showed fondness for anyone but Harley, a plant alien, and her husband when she tried to reform. She killed the latter two though.

I remember when lesbians was fap fuel, before homosexual Nazis took over Cred Forums.

>Because Ivy is a trash, one note, token lesbian character whenever she is paired with Harley.

Stop taking Palmiotti and Conner stuff as if they represent the whole pairing, you sure as hell knows that Harley/Ivy has worked in the past

>Keeping them separate increases the quality of both characters.

Uh-huh, and if they increase the quality of Harley character for example, why does everyone hate her acting solo?

That's not even remotely what I posted, read again, I gave good reasons beyond what you posted

Fair enough

>How do you know?. It's never been proven
Because after Ross and Rachel got together on Friends, there was nothing else to do with them, so their relationship became this on again, off again thing. Likewise with Jim and Pam from The Office. They became boring and unfunny as a couple once they got together. It's why movies always end with the guy getting the girl. Because there is no more story to tell once they're together.

Superhero marriages often become stale quickly. The spouse, usually unpowered, has nothing else to do but watch from afar and worry. Marriages also age heroes. Especially heroes who later have children. Harley and Ivy are supposed to be young ladies. Ivy's purpose is to be a seductress, a bad girl. Harley's purpose is to be a care-free thrill-seeker. Both of their individual identities become lost if they were to get married and have kids together. That's not character growth. That's character assassination.

Ivy has never been that interesting.

Even when she went Lethal Protector and adopted all the orphans and molestation victims of Gotham and turned the park into a Neverneverland for them.

What is the point of this all?
They don't do evil so they are not villains, but they can't fight for justice either being a crazy clown with dependency issues and loon that thinks she is a plant.

There's more than heroes and villains.

Antivillains are antagonists who do good things, antiheroes are protagonists who do bad.

Harley is currently an antihero, Ivy in the past has meandered between antivillain, villain, and two brief stints as an antihero.

They can move from they will/they won't to won't, not to will, you know.

>antiheroes are protgaonists who do bad
no.exe

Id be fine with it if they actually committed to it and fleshed it out instead of being played for laughs/the usual shipperfag fuel. Right now DC is trying to have their cake and eat it too with the whole thing. If they grab a good writer for it then yeah go nuts

They already did that.

Gotham City Sirens. Both are shown to be overly fond of each other, but abandon each other for the D on three separate occasions.

See, people who read comics want to see new things. Just because you haven't read it doesn't make it new material.

So they should be blowing up corrupt politicians and factories?

>>How do you know?. It's never been proven
>Because after Ross and Rachel got together on Friends, there was nothing else to do with them, so their relationship became this on again, off again thing. Likewise with Jim and Pam from The
>Office. They became boring and unfunny as a couple once they got together. It's why movies always end with the guy getting the girl. Because there is no more story to tell once they're together.

If the Internet and hours of free-time has taught me anything is that there's is always more to tell if you put effort enough and bullshit enough

>Superhero marriages often become stale quickly. The spouse, usually unpowered, has nothing else to do but watch from afar and worry. Marriages also age heroes. Especially heroes who later have children. Harley and Ivy are supposed to be young ladies. Ivy's purpose is to be a seductress, a bad girl. Harley's purpose is to be a care-free thrill-seeker. Both of their individual identities become lost if they were to get married and have kids together. That's not character growth. That's character assassination.

I'm not even asking for them to be married or have kids, I'm just asking for DC to stop the will they/don't they stuff going on. Also I'm asking how them being together would not sell in anyway it even affect sells negatively

I've read sirens. I love it. And I think it nailed Harley's character to a t. And if you've read, you'd see, from her going to arkham-scene why she doesn't get to end up with harley. It's right there.

So...Bombshells?

Because 1930's gangster Bonnie and Bonnie was surprisingly good. Plus its our best bet of flapper Harley making a return.

Well, they're already killing assassins and low level criminals.

To be honest Bombshells is the best thing that have ever happened to them

She was in love with Woodrue before he used her.

She also used to openly lust for Batman.

...

They "shouldn't" be anything but entertaining. It would be nice but it's not like there's some moral imperative

ivy's pheremones don't work on her

It's the same as everything else. People are scared of new.
>Mah Harley
>Mah Ivy
These are the same people scared of taking a different route to work.

...

Love is between a man and a woman, not a woman and a plant

...

Harley Quinn is a horrible person.

She and the Joker deserve each other.

youtube.com/watch?v=ayfBf2J-Qlc

>shipping

And somehow Ivy is pure and honest and all around perfect person?

Ivy is horrible too

Ivy is an insane murderer, but at least she believes she's trying to do good by protecting the environment, and, if left alone will usually tend to her plants in peace.

Joker and Harley are mass-murdering psychotics who do what they do because they're bored.

you're basing your claim on their motivation and not on their past crimes.

Because not everyone has your fetish.

Because it is the end result that matters, not the method of reaching there.

because relationships are always boring 99% of the time, and they never ever stick

You do know that Ivy motivation is plant superiority, right? That she will kill, steal, destroy and basically do whatever it takes to reach that goal, right? That doesn't make her different than Harley and Joker and Scarecrow or any other Gotham Rogue

Protection of those unable to protect themselves.

You're saying, she's in the right because she has what she believes to be a noble cause.
That doesn't make it better.

It is a noble cause. The most right that can exist.

Killing is still killing, doing property damage is still destroying stuff, if she truly cared about plant life she would find another more heroic way to do it instead of killing or kidnapping or destroying

Because Batman isn't a slice of life
romance comic.

Because Harley and Ivy really only work as best gal pals, and not lovers.

Because the so called subtext people think they see between them is annoying wish full thinking or flat out made up.

Because we can't seem to have fun and interesting female characters and teams without them being queer.

Because there's no reason for them to be together other than muh feels, muh representeshun, and muh fapmaterial.

Because making them lovers simplifies their character arcs down to pointless and obnoxious romance.

Because that's going to inevitably carry some ill fitting lesbo sjw activist message that has no place in a Batcomic.

Because if you want all that shit like some one dimensional mutant gay, then just stick to your fanfics where you can have all your yuri fetishes come true.

Because ship fags, and especially queer ship fags, deserve to feel bad for trying to ruin a really potentially fun hilarious and interesting pairing by turning them into dykes.

Only in the cartoons, in the comics Ivy is just Harley's sidekick and beta orbiter.

She was desperately in love with Batman since her creation. THE FUCK?

It's like you guys only read comics that had Harley in it. Oh, wait... you all did.

Why do people only remember No Man's Land?

Why not... i don't, Ostrander's Suicide Squad? Get some taste, nigga.

Harley Quinn doesn't love Poison Ivy. She just uses Ivy infatuation with her so she can have a place to stay and a henchwomen with meta powers to save her ass.

Harley is just manipulating and using Ivy by baiting her with sex. She learned from the best, after all.

> She learned from the best

The weird child of The Grinch and Kevin from Home Alone?

Also your whole post is false

Go read Jimmy Palmiotti and Amanda Conner's Harley Quinn's comic.

Or even before Flashpoint the Gotham City Sirens comic, where Harley told Ivy where she never loved her, only used her.

>Using 2 instance where Harley was OOC

Taking Palmiotti and Conner stuff seriously is like taking Bendis stuff seriously. Also the end of Sirens contradicts everything that came out before that

Conner and Palmiotti will never leave Harley Quinn alone. They basically own the character now, specially the Nu52 version, which is the current main version. So whatever they say, go.

So that's the basis for their relationship.

She doesn't need them.

Yeah sure, Palmiotti and Conner bullshit stays in their lane, nobody is listening to them, so your argument is invalid

Their comic is the best-selling ones DC has.

It may be their #1 most popular comic, but it doesn't count because it's inconvenient to my argument! Also tumblr.

>She and the Joker deserve each other
joker is only for batman, silly user

And? Do you seriously think that DC is going to start listening to Palmiotti and Conner instead of Suicide Squad writer?

In regards to Harley Quinn/Poison Ivy relationship? Yeah.

Do you see Ivy anywhere in SS? Of course, not. The only place you see Ivy interacting with Harley is in the comics written by Palmiotti and Conner.

They even find excuses to have Harley be free in SS so she can do whatever she does in other comics thanks to the popularity of Palmiotti and Conner's comics. Or then adopt the new costumes she wears in their comics.

Then explain me how Harley short appearance in Ivy's mini was in any way, shape or form like Palmiotti and Conner Harley. If anything their short time together was reminisce of Sirens. The costume was simply movie synergy

Because DC wanted to please the Ivy League fuckers by separating her from Harley, but nobody bought the book.

I'm not asking the reason why the mini exist, dodo-head

She enslaves people using toxins on a daily basis. How is that not abusive?

so you want to be fucked? you silly boipussy

Because for Harley, it's a lateral move from Joker.

Too tired for arguments but they have good chemistry and would have fucked on screen ten times over if they were a guy/girl duo.

DC lost he head writer for Batwoman because they wouldn't let him show her marrying her female fiancé in the comic. So I can't say I'm surprised at Ivy and Harley's characterization after that fiasco but still disappointed. Hope dies last.

>it doesn't show anything so it doesnt count

so basically you just want a literal porn comic?

Palmotti and Conner have confirmed they are

They haven't show them have any meaningful scene, Harley and Ivy haven't had a date, haven't had anything at all. They always bait, Bombshells did a better job at showing them as a couple than Palmiotti and Conner ever did

Then why is she chasing men and not being with Ivy?. Palmiotti and Conner shit was just a smoke screen

...

...

they're not monogamous

Oh how convenient, they totally confirmed that they are canon but in a way that allows them to not show them being a couple... You're naive user

...

...

>hating Harley

How can someone be this much of a tryhard?.

>150 replies
>56 unique posters
It's just one butthury yurifag getting triggered that no one likes his trash and spamming the thread. Lemme see your face when you will never be him.

I loved it at first but now it's just boring as fuck.

At least Harley was entertaining with the Joker.