What did he mean by this?

>>One of the things I like about the X-Men is they're not killing people. I miss the idea of... heroes who stop that kind of thing from happening. Here's why I'm not running Marvel: If I was, I would kill the Punisher. I don't believe in what he does. The Punisher just shoots up places. And if you're telling me he's never hit an innocent, then I'm telling you, that's fascist crap.

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He has a hateboner for Frank.

What a faggot.

>Stopping a mass murderer who has already killed thousands and will undoubtedly do so again when he inevitable escapes from jail once and for all is bad

Thank god this faggot is out



Nu male faggot

Whedon did literally nothing wrong.

He made Age of Ultron.

Oh yeah you're right my mistake.

A complex movie riddled with imagery.

>X-Men don't kill people
>Mags is an X-Men and has on numerous occasions tried to wipe out all humanity in the name of mutant kind and has murdered countless in cold blood
>Wolverine was the best in the world at what he did and what he did was kill people
>X-Force was literally a Mutant Hit squad formed to kill off targets that would damage mutant reputation
>Cyclops literally killed Prof X
>Sabertooth, a known vicious murderer is now a mainstay on the Uncanny team
>but X-Men don't kill people

He should have just said spider-man, it would have made it sound like he at least knows a bit about what he's talking about.

What does the term "fascist" have anything to do with that sentence? Did he just want to toss that word in or what?

This explains why Joss Whedon writes every character as a sarcastic quipper. He killed off all the characters who think differently to him.

That was Phoenix, not Cyclops. You wouldn't blame Jean for obliterating that Shi'ar planet.

>That feel that Frank getting civilians in crossfire never bothered you
>That feel when you assumed that it happened even though he takes steps to prevent it
>That feel when you assumed this was part of what made Frank an anti-hero in the first place

Civilians getting hurt by Frank's collateral damage, or his killing people who might not fully deserve it, are what makes Punisher as an antihero interesting. I always assumed he was a morally grey hero from the start, and that him never ever killing a civilian, not even by accident, was kind of a way to ignore the reality of the situation. It doesn't serve the character, it just keeps him palatable for people who can't stomach the idea of a conflicted protagonist.

> I don't know what fascist means

Yeah I would, just because you're high doesn't give you a fucking excuse, and we could clearly see that it was Scott who chose to end Charles' life, he just had the perfect scape goat to go along with it. He's a murderer who is literally saying "I was drunk at the time! Liquor made me kill him!"

>Man who created a Hillary Super PAC is a cuck who gets mad about Superheroes killing
What a shock

The Punisher shouldn't be written as aspirational. Look at Wolverine who also kills but it's a Deal

>he wants to erase characters he doesn't agree with because they don't share his viewpoint.
>he hates fascism.

has he written more X-men comics than he's read?

He's a fag, but I agree on Punisher. He's what ruined S2 of Daredevil.

>Shooting shotgun in a hall full of people at point-blank distance

A person's opinion of the Punisher is a litmus test for how much of a fucking faggot they are.

Same as "right-wing", "racist" and "misogynist" nowadays. Empty words.

What if they know next to nothing about the Punisher?

she did have a trial at least, which Scott didn't get as I remember?

Then why he directed movie in which Captain America kills people, especially brainwashed ones, Iron Man killing people, and other memebers of Avengers breaking necks, blowing up, etc. with also quipping while doing this

I am sorry, I just can't understand this.

So when you kill someone and quip like it's nothing it is good, but when you kill someone because you thing that makes world a little better, or just being serious when doing this is bad?

Also Avengers don't kill in comics, they even kicked-out SpOck when he killed fucking Massacre,

>he doesn't know what Slugs are

I never watched the series, but in the comics, Frank never denied he killed innocents. According to Mephisto (who had no reason to lie at the time), Frank killed between 50 and 70 innocents in his life.

Nothing wrong with knowing nothing about the character. The problem is then acting like you do, and you start sounding like this faggot in the op.


Because he's one of the "good people". The rest of the people are "bad people", and they don't matter. We're all special snowflakes in the internet, didn't you know?

He literally killed the Kitchen Irish without coming 50m close to them

Which is why GR's penance stare not working on him during Frankbolts triggered me so fucking bad. Guilt isn't a factor.

the chitauri were like zombies and ultron bots were robots. And clearly there's a difference between a war context and not a war.

Cyclop kill a guy in first Morrison's arc, though

So what? The chitauri were aliens. The Avengers genocided an entire race

I'm not the biggest fan of superheroes killing but I'm ok with Frank. In fact I'm wearing a Punisher shirt right now.

An awesome movie. What's your point.

So he literally denying concept of anti heroes. What kind a writer is that?

there's no indication it's the whole race? it's an invading war party

and kills off Coulson and Quickslav.

I mean, he's not wrong about the Punisher never hitting an innocent being utterly unbelievable. Wasn't his first story him trying to murder Spider-Man because of a rumour started by the Kingpin?
But to say the X-Men never killed anyone? What do you think Wolverine does with those claws? Give Hydra goons a mild scratch?

Yeah that seemed like it was just the writer not knowing how penance stare worked, or the story's not in strict continuity with others.

Originally, and for a long time, the X-men were basically social justice warriors. They fought for the freedom of mutants to exist in peace.

Most Marvel comics are about heroes beating the fuck out of villains who they created. And not to stop a crime.

Well, he's not denying it exists (he's written it before, see Jayne). But he doesn't like it to be highlighted.

But it's not even highlighted. Punisher not near as famous as X men

What Chitauri? Braiwashed soldiers weren't Chitauri, so weren't hydra goons in beginning of Age of Ultron.

Do you have amnesia, Joss?

>He was talking about MOVIES of course, lol that's where these characters are from XD

Meanwhile the X-men are being killed off.

But just because X-men have more movies doesn't mean the Punisher isn't highlighted, isn't in the spotlight. He's a major character and they push him like anyone else.

Whedon wouldn't want to push him because he sends a bad message.

Is he literally saying that, really?

>mutants are being killed off
You mean like in 70% of X-Men related story arcs right?

>He's what ruined S2 of Daredevil

Objectively awful opinions really do exist.

This can be applied to any number of characters, Whedon just singled the Punisher out because he has this whole "thing" with guns and the military, which he seemingly detests almost much as he does religion.

Racist, alt-right, fascist, PePe, cuck, SJW, Cred Forums, misogony.

who cares?

he's irrelevant now.

>he has this whole "thing" with guns and the military, which he seemingly detests almost much as he does religion.
Wow, he's just a winning combination of pure faggot. He probably hates military guys because they're not a balding chubster like him.

Nice lip crust my man.

>propic is literally of him tipping a fedora

When weirdo starts shooting people saying "Them the criminals honestly", line between collateral and on purpose blurs.

Good thing they changed that and had Cyclops started a team of X-Force led by Wolverine to kill all there enemies.

ew that's fucking nasty

I'm a whedon defender, but this quote makes my blood boil.

What is it with non-frank fans and their obsession with collateral damage? No one ever complains that Superman doesnt accidentally eye beam people.

She's cute, I really want to violently rape her like the inferior sex she is.


Because people like to think in extremes. Because Frank is a little more realistic than the average marvel character means he has to be extremely realistic.

I'm pretty sure Xmen kill people.

Its kind of why I prefer Marvel more, theyre typically more practical with dealibg with villains over DC heroes. That being said DC is not wring in its approach.

In Ennis Punisher he almost commits suicide because he's made to think that he's killed an innocent

The weird thing is that in his second Avengers movie he not only had Hulk go on a rampage without showing anybody getting killed, he had the new character, Scarlet Witch, seemingly hypnotize him into doing it (though it was left offscreen so who knows), leaving a lot of fans thinking she committed murder and Hulk committed manslaughter.

I like Whedon for saving Wanda from the hatred of Marvel editorial but that whole movie is full of the hypocrisy of pretending that enormous amounts of carnage are basically harmless.

That was kind of what I was wondering. Someone could essentially be frank in real life.

Superman isn't a lunatic and he has a bunch of OP powers that allow him to reduce casualties.

Punisher doesn't give a shit and just murders people, regardless if they are undercover or were dragged into the situation. Of course, he does gets sad when he kills a good man undercover.

I wouldn't say this, but personally, I think Frank is somewhat realistic, and that's way too realistic to enjoy for such an absurd fantasy as to having a derange invincible lunatic to solve all our problems.

>don't kill people
>but wait, do kill people

I generally hate this fag because of his severe alt right pandering to the point of being safe, but I love Whedon tipping.

That one knew jack shit about the X-Men, and it showed.

>Punisher doesn't give a shit and just murders people
That's just wrong. Frank's family got killed in a picnic. He wouldn't have it happen to a bunch of innocents.

Shit writing triggers anyone.

Sounds more logical if that was in Vietnam. Also
>the Prince of Lies

>It's okay when Marvel does it

Stan doesn't want Whedon's soul. It tastes of old boiled cabbage left outside in the rain.

>Implying Joss Whedon has a soul
His complete lack of talent aside, his being ginger should've been your first clue.

That was Belasco.

Unless we're thinking of something different.

I agree with He is either lying or referring to Vietnam.

Belasco is absout as willing to talk shit as Mephisto. Seriously, you want me to believe in the words of a diabolic kiddie diddler?

stopped reading x-men a few years back, how do they do sabertooth on the x-men? aside from being wolverines arch enemy, he gutted psylocke and probably did other naughty stuff.

Do they still insist in the comics that Hulk never kills even by accident?

But The Xmen kill the shit out of people.

this bugged me, wasnt the reason they shot him into space and started WWH because he killed some innocents in vegas after being blown up by a bomb and going crazy mad?

It's X-men. Every villian has been a hero and vice versa.

but other villians who joined werent "evil" magneto thought he was doing the right thing, and juggernaught was just a thug for the most part, but sabertooth kills for fun, he dosent seem to fit in

>Wolverine's entire backstory is murder
>Professor X has murdered mutant gang members
>Cyclops has murdered countless goons
>At least two characters, Storm and Jean Grey, are constantly in danger of going crazy-bonkers and murdering indiscriminately.

>"fascist crap"

And so fascism takes its place among The Hall of Non-Words, right next to "racist," "misogynist," and "unfair."

If I recall, he was framed.
>trusting Illuminati bullshit
Those faggots never did anything wrong. The same writers who came up with them decided to turn every genius in Marvel into a stupid douche.

I was confused the other day, reading X-Men: Civil War, too, but I figure it had to do with Axis. Everyone got turned from hero to villain and vice-versa, guess Creed just retained the morals for now.
Still, it was weird seeing Psylocke hanging out with him like it was nothing.

He doesn't, period.
Well, didn't. He's kinda dead right now, because apparently now Hawkeye kills. Because fuck continuity.

>Those faggots never did anything wrong.
I don't know how I got THIS wrong. My bad.

>Superheroes MUST take the justice system into their own hands

No wonder Carol is so popular

By definition, yes, a superhero is someone who takes the law into their own hands.

>Superheroes MUST take the justice system into their own hands
I'm so tired of this. Why can't there be a super hero who will have sex with people when they are horny?

>I like about the X-Men is they're not killing people
>I would kill the Punisher
What a hypocrite.

The only noble deaths are reserved for the quirky heroines that are built up to goddess-level plot power. That's how the Joss works.


If the justice system can't prosecute and try a villian to either life of execution why the fuck would that be the superheroes fault. They capture them nit play judge and jury that's what literally separates then from someone like between two buns with cheese and ketchup

had his moral spectrum switched by Red Skull using Professor X's brain

He got swapped during Axis. Tony prevented Sabretooth and Havok from reverting to their normal alignments.

I was confused the other day, reading X-Men: Civil War
So...you're reading a shitty event tie-in, but not UXM? It's good even with bLand on art.
Also, he does an arc then leaves. You can handle it.


>He doesn't know punisher does months of planning to minimize civiliians getting caught in the cross fire
>He doesn't know punisher has criminal vision

>So...you're reading a shitty event tie-in, but not UXM? It's good even with bLand on art.
I have... a lot of catching up to do for the last few years.
I just pick some short arcs (minis, mostly) to read during downloads. It worked to figure out the current situation of the X-Men, and it was nice seeing Kurt isn't as bad right now as it was painted.

I also read the Hercules mini, which wasn't bad. The event tie-ins somehow manage to not suck as much as they should.

>imaginary characters actions are now fascist crap


Fair enough.
What was the last X-shit you read?

Yeah, it's pretty well known that Whedon is the ultimate faggot

DC-Bro here: Don't the X-men kill people all the time?

>If you kill a killer, the number of killers in the world remains the same.
yeah but what if you kill 10 killers? or 50? or 100?

Then you're literally Hitler.

There's a big, BIG difference between SJW's and people fighting for rights that they don't actually have.

Pic is outdated, she's sporting a much more feminist build recently.

Fuck off Joss.


A superhero operates outside the legal system. They are not (with the exception of government agencies like SHIELD) police or federal agents. They take justice into their own hands.

Even his waifu Kitty has killed, what the fuck is he talking about?

Came in here just to say this. He deserved every bit of vile he got after AoA

The threw his ass in jail for everything he did.

No they don't

There are tw definitions of heroes

Vigilante and heroes
Heroes work in it. Either in a moral or ethical sense. Spiderman and batman are heroes. Daredevil is a hero.
Vigilantes take it. Punisher is a vigilante. Honestly that's the only case I have I don't like stories like his but I guess you could put Deadpool in their in a way
>But it's the same thing
Yes but it's the method that matters

>The number of killers in the world remains the same
Yeah, but a significant more amount of innocent people get to go home afterwards.

Are you saying that their lives are more important than someone who is likely mentally ill and unable to get help or forced into crime through desperation?

The most famous Xman of all time probably has a higher body count than Frank

>One of the things I like about the X-Men is they're not killing people


When properly written? HELL no.
IF they really decide to kill, it's usually those "oh shit it's ON" moments.

Uhmmm... I'm not sure. I kept reading for a while after Second Coming, then Schism, then I had some computer troubles and lost momentum.

...And then bendis happened, and there wasn't a whole lot of reason to check the comics for a while.

I checked recently one of Yost's Astonishing X-Men issues where Colossus faces Juggernaut, though.

And just as I mentioned "oh shit it's ON moments", I was thinking of these.

>Femist as seals
>self-abuse to fit in with seals

I always kek when I see this comic. I remember meeting Whedon years ago (after Buffy ended) at a convention with my then girlfriend. The guy was the definition of Hollywood sleaze and made a lot of jokes about signing breasts. He even suggested that he sign my then girlfriend's boobs instead of the DVD I brought.

Fuck Whedon, all of his shows were saved due to his co-writers and other production staff members. This was verified after Angel ended.

>for such an absurd fantasy as to having a derange invincible lunatic to solve all our problems
But that's exactly what Marvel is all about.

Wow...this confirms what I thought, dude is a fake feminist.

No. Vigilante refers ONLY to the legal status. Batman outside of is Justice League work is literally a vigilante.

''Nope, there's one less''

Is that good or bad here, I can't even remember.

Anyway I assume all men who have a reputation as feminists are secretly Jian Ghomeshi. But I do think his work benefits from the fact that he's not an ideologue about Strong Female Characters and can write them with flaws and stuff.

Of course, when the SJW and Fem-nazi movement became popular with idiots. The PR people within all big ways of life (Hollywood, colleges, corporations, etc) seen that they could use this to fix their image or make them seem more friendly to receive better offers.

Whedon would make Amy Acker (Fred) on Angel wear short skirts and angle the camera scenes near her legs whenever he was directing an episode. Look at the cast from Angel, Buffy, Dollhouse, and Firefly that still talk to him. Not a lot do as he is a creepy as fuck asshole. Quote Sarah Michelle Geller just a few years ago.

I liked Age of Ultron. I don't get the hate for it honestly, Ultron was the most entertaining villain of the entire line-up.


>Quote Sarah Michelle Geller
She called him a creepy asshole?

I appreciate him forcing Scarlet Witch and Vision into an MCU that probably didn't want them (though other filmmakers seem to be using them better) and I liked the party scene.

He's not a bad writer or director, he just needs help. He stumbled into being the director of the world's biggest franchise because he parachuted in to save the original Avengers script with his rewrites, but then on the sequel he tried to do more than he's capable of doing.

It was an interview where she said that a former director was a sleaze and would constantly be creepy towards her and other females on set. She never personally called him that.

HOWEVER! Another Buffy/Angel actresses said that she Sarah was referencing Whedon.

It's the Ghomeshi Principle. Any famous man with a reputation as a Sensitive Guy is probably a creep.

I can't wait to hear the stories about Justin Trudeau.

>And if you're telling me he's never hit an innocent, then I'm telling you, that's fascist crap.

If you tell me Spider-Man can climb walls, that's fucking bullshit.

True, how much of it is that a woman is simply stupid and thinking that someone is a creep when they are not?

Whedon and Trudeau both have this look of creepier about them. Especially Trudeau, he looks like he enjoys diddling kids.

She didn't get murdered though, she sacrificed herself to save everyone. A bit of a difference

Does Bucky in TWS count? If so, I'd give that title to him.

>I think stories I don't like for political reasons should be cancelled because I'm against fascism

t. sensitive Joss Whedon

>that's fascist crap
I can't say that phrase in my head without hearing a severe gay lisp

>Killing criminals is bad, which is why we need to kill this criminal whose crime is killing criminals

As a lot of people have mentioned, applying real world logic to something like Batman shows his way of operating is totally inefficient and immoral. Joker kills thousands of people, lock him up, he inevitably escapes, kills thousands more, lock him up again, repeat ad nauseam. Clearly if this was a real situation happening killing the Joker in cold blood to stop him from killing again would be the more moral choice.

Also how can Joss justify a character like Wolverine, he's a mass murderer too.

Is the mass murderer the real criminal or is it white male society which drove him to it?

Are you calling jews killers?

Technically no, they're just bullies who drove a man into killing himself.

Wheddon you fucking idiot.

Under YOUR PEN, Cyke and the X-Men killed a whole lot of people.

Alien people, but people nonetheless.


Why the hell is Whedon is saying this? His most famous original works, Buffy. Angel, Firefly, had his main characters routinely killing people without remorse, regret, or emotional reaction the majority of the time.

vampires and demons aren't people

Relevant to what you're saying.

You're a demonophobe and a rabid anti-vampite.

wolverine's whole deal is angsting over how killing is horrible and not wanting others to have to go through what he has

Didn't his Cyclops kill people with guns in Astonishing X-men?

And part two. When Prime, who is the literal embodiment of morality, says that sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, then who the fuck is gonna say different?

It's cool how nobody seems to grasp that describes Frank just as well as any villain.

If you're telling me that the X-Men never accidentally killed someone, or an innocent in a cross fire, then I'm telling you, that's fascist crap.

Frank never accidentally killing someone he didn't mean to is no more difficult to believe than the X-Men never killing someone they didn't mean to.

Just make more Firefly, jesus Joss and all will be forgiven.

Fuck off Whedon


If Joss Whedon was on weed he would be Joss Weedon

Soundwave over there all
>yep, i'm on your side guys, fuck that other guy....I...I...dont even really know him.

It's not like shooting sebastian would do anything whatsoever.

>Thou shall not kill
What's with every comic book writer adhering this naive policy? No one with common sense would believe this code is at all the optimal solution to dealing with violent criminals. I find it baffling that Supes and Spider-man spend pages ranting at heroes for using lethal force, especially if they had no other options, but then around and praise the State and even certain politicians.

These heroes do realize that the American government is constantly involved in morally questionable decisions and conducts missions that many American citizens consider against the legal principles their country should follow, right? For God's sake, you have Obama approving drone striking civilians. No way am I going to buy the excuse that, "it's acceptable if the State does it."

Either Supes and Spider-Man condemn all killing from all people, or they're nothing but hypocritical statist shills.

Heroes are even more good than the police or military who enjoy the killing too much. That's why Batman is a hero, and Obama is just a politician

one, you can look up to, and the other just makes you want to puke

He still kills people on the reg, though. And brags about it. Pic related.

Im not in my 20s anymore, and I know what Joss is saying in the OP.

Cred Forums is mostly 18-28 year olds that want to see viloence, gun violence, play Call of Duty, watch John Wick.... its a part of your daily life. The 3rd post in this thread sums up perfectly how most of Cred Forums feels towards someone criticising Cred Forums's anti-gf fuel of gun violence.

That does end. You may think it won't, you may think you wont change, but you do. It's not like a switch flip, its a slow change. The biggest surprise.... you will look back, and you will be glad you changed.

>Ignore the unrealistic death count of Avengers

7 5 P E O P L E

If Joss Whedon were from Stockholm he'd be Joss Sweden

I can sort of approve of Superman having a personal code against killing because he's so powerful he doesn't need to. I assume he understands police officers and civilians are just ordinary dudes and sometimes it's unavoidable for them to use lethal force. But of course if Superman locks up a killer and they escape and kill more that gives you the same problem you have with Batman. But maybe Superman can justify it to himself by saying he abides by the laws of the countries he's in so killing in cold blood is off the table (and lethal force is legally questionable for him since he never really needs to kill anyone to resolve a situation).

Don't cut yourself.

This. I'm a Frankfag but Supes is a special case. Killing would be so easy for him, before long he'd just default to it. And we all know what happens then.

Why don't you give yourself a nice hard pat on the back for being so mature and worldly?

So eventually I'll outgrow my juvenile enjoyment of John Wick and grow into the mature adult enjoyment of Taken? Tons of middle aged people enjoy violent media. Hell I've heard more middle aged people say that some people just need to be killed than twenty-somethings

>to fill or affect with (something undesirable, weakening, etc.): a government riddled with graft.

you right, you right

unless one killer killed many other killers.


Not if the children of the killers seek revenge upon the man who killed their parent and kill everyone that stands between them.

I know that the X-men had a no-kill rule for a time, because Bishop actually had problems on the team, and eventually left, because he was used to a future where he could kill villains, no questions asked.

You mean the only good parts of season 2

>I kept reading for a while after Second Coming
So basically up through AvX?

If you can, I'd honestly recommend Bendis's Uncanny (stay the ever-loving fuck away from ANXM). It's kinda inconsequential, but it has a number of nice issues.

X-Treme X-Men was a lot of fun.

>Yost's Astonishing X-Men
I think that was Amazing. Don't think Yost did anything on Astonishing.

Hopeless on Cable & X-Force and Spurrier's X-Force are really good if you liked Hope. Spurrier's book in particular really resonated with me.
I'm assuming you read Remender's UXF? His Uncanny Avengers is basically the sequel to it.

As of right now, I'd say the only book with 'X' worth reading is Bunn's UXM. The Apocalypse War arc was pretty solid too. Self-contained from the other books as well.

>the children of some filthy animal dare seek retribution
Then just kill them as well. They had their chance to be better people then their parents. Fuck them. Just like that pussy that screamed at Frank in the courtroom.

You're missing the good shit.

>They really shouldn't kill. Now, that doesn't mean that they never will, but heroes should not kill and, in particular, they should not use fucking guns. I think that the glorification of killing and of shooting guns is not the job of a comic book. They can shoot plenty of cool things without having to put bullets in people. That is lazy and amoral and useless. Batman doesn't kill. It makes his job harder. They're been times where I was like, 'Just kill the Joker. Just kill him. Kill him.' But the fact that he won't is part of what makes him who he is. The Punisher? Coward. He's a coward

Well, as a twenty-year old who doesn't like the Punisher, but likes John Wick, I don't really have a problem with the Punisher existing. It's just weird that he hasn't been arrested by another vigilante yet for murder. Seriously, if he wasn't a main Marvel character, he'd be in jail in the Marvel 616 universe so fast. Heck, if I had powers, I'd arrest him so fast.



What scares me about the Punisher is that, besides being a fantasy revenge character, which is fine and I can empathize with, people in this very thread seem to approve of him.

I actually would like to see an arc where a child of a Frank's kills, who has become a superhero finds him, maybe teams up with him to fight a villain , and then sends him to jail. And promises to always send him t jail, just like Frank promises to always punish.

And he'd just escape again. And if i had powers and i found out you were deliberately targeting him, i'd cripple you for life you sack of shit, are you aware that he literally saves a couple of lives every night he's out? He's like the reverse Joker.

>And promises to always send him t jail
So basically death sentence for thousands of people that Frank wont be able to directly or indirectly save. Good. Frank realizes he's a villain and kills him, the end.

Ironically, then the Punisher would probably come after you for crippling me.

That would be a good arc for a Punisher comic.

>I actually would like to see an arc where a child of a Frank's kills, who has become a superhero finds him, maybe teams up with him to fight a villain , and then sends him to jail. And promises to always send him t jail, just like Frank promises to always punish.

That might make for an interesting reoccurring character for a Punisher series.

>Frank realizes he's a villain and kills him, the end.
That's not how Frank works.


Wouldn't it be better if I went back to Cred Forums THEN killed myself?

Yea, i doubt that. He's got a lot better things to do then waste time on someone who's both no danger to innocent people and far more dangerous then what he usually deals with. Then again, he is crazy. Depending on my powerlevel, i'd either laugh at him or leave town. Then again, if you were a legitimate hero, and i crippled you, Punisher would be the least of my worries. I'd probably have the Avengers breathing down my neck in no time. Fuck.

>That's not how Frank works.
That's how comics work. There is no excuse for that mongoloid jailing a dude that's more effective then just about every hero out there.

most more or less realize that sending Frank to jail just results in a lot of dead inmates, dead prison guards, and Frank back on the streets a few weeks later. Others are reluctant because he's helped get them out of jams in the past and would rather not betray that

If Frank thought like that, Daredevil or any other hero that objected to his methods would be dead already. He might be willing to rough up someone up who is in his way, but he won't kill a hero.

If someone crippled an actual hero in his name, that would really piss the Punisher off. REALLY piss him off. He wouldn't like the idea that a villain (and someone who cripples a hero is, in his eyes, a villain) idolizes him.

Damn, you might make Frank your personal enemy.

So you admit you're from Cred Forums?

I'm just saying he wouldn't kill an innocent who got in his way or is trying to arrest him.

>He might be willing to rough up someone up who is in his way, but he won't kill a hero.
That's what I'm saying.

No, hence the "would", not "should".

That reasoning, though a little flimsy, makes sense. Especially the first part.

okay kid


I think deep down some of the heros are thankful for Punisher being the bad guy and doing what they feel like doing to despicable people.

>thread literally filled with evidence that dude is a massive piece of shit

Shut the fuck up you fucking faggot.

You're a retarded little bitch. What the fuck is John Wick?

>Damn, you might make Frank your personal enemy
Like i said, depending on my powerlevel that might be incredibly amusing. Though considering this is a scenario where i was able to cripple a dude that had no trouble repeatedly catching him, i'd say i'm in the clear. But yea, guess i'd have to settle for buying him time to get away whenever you or whoever it was swoops in for him.

>What the fuck is John Wick?

Why not just beat the shit out of the guy trying to catch Punisher every time he tries to get in his way?

That's what i just said. Though the asshole would probably just ask other heroes for help and then they'd beat the shit out of me. It's hard being on Frank's side, literally everyone else is against him.

>Man who only writes quirky flawless joke machines with no flaws or depth doesn't understand the appeal of a protagonist who is riddled with flaws
Color me shocked, what a surprising opinion from Joss "my definition of a strong female character is a peerless badass who shows no non-snark emotion until she gets wrecked and then has a mascara-smeared cry about it to show that she's a human or something" Whedon.

He won't turn on you if you just beat them up instead of crippling them. He'll probably even find a way to help you.

Underrated post

>until she gets wrecked and then has a mascara-smeared cry about it to show that she's a human or something
I'm sorry, when do his females get wrecked?

Frank was the best part of S2, since his parts were an engaging story and not a vague teaser for The Defenders.

By ''the asshole'' i meant the guy i'm trying to prevent from arresting him.

>Sensitive Joss Whedon
>That Ghostbusters Review
>That companion video where they explain the Sony narrative
>New Plinkett Review imminent
RLM is so fucking based.

Shit, now i just feel like an edgy manchild for saying i'd cripple that guy, and he was so classy about it too. I really should think stuff through.

Man, the only thing worse than Whedon's women is his villains, which is to be expected from a man who thinks that apparently every villain has to be a stupid, unthreatening quip machine incapable of creating proper emotional tension.
Or a shitty pseudo-zombie like the Reavers.

>Sensitive Joss Whedon
>"We need an acronym"

>The Punisher emits a crime-aura that causes people around him to commit crimes, ensuring there's only guilty people in his line of fire

What happens when Steven Universe's paternal instinct aura and Punisher's crime aura meet?

The only things Whedon has done outside of TV that I've actually loved were Dr Horrible, Cabin in the Woods, and the first Avengers.

Dude can do good work when he wants to, but he crawls up his own ass too much.
>Alien Resurrection is bad
>Age of Ultron is mediocre
>Makes a movie where the only female protagonist goes from well-rounded and fleshed out to "the one who calms down Hulk by using her femininity to sooth him to sleep"

>Scary, threatening AI turned into a bumbling comedy robot
>Better than Kingpin
>Better than Loki
>Better than Purple Man
>Better than Red Skull
>Better than Zemo
>Better than Bucky
>Better than Stane
That's some shit taste you got there, senpai

Dont forget the worst line in the first xmen movie

>Purple Man
They're equal but that's because they're both shit.

>Somehow Frank is Steven's long lost brother.

>Dont forget the worst line in the first xmen movie

Imagine them living together.


That user here. Don't worry, it's cool. This is all fantasy, anyway.

But if I ever develop powers, I might have to watch my back now.

I am also here to call him a faggot.
His movies all have the same quippy feel and his politics and personal beliefs make me hate him

That was the worst?
It's pretty inoffensive, albeit incredible lame.

That line was from an old version of a script, so it was a punchline to a joke whose set-up got erased from that movie.

Dr Horrible is the only version in which it actually works in his favor (because Dr Horrible is the best thing Joss will ever do), but a good example of what I mean is Black Widow in Avengers.

>Is super badass super spy
>Takes no guff from anyone
>Pulls one over on a fucking trickster god
>Has to run away from Hulk
>Gets nudged into a wall when Thor saves her
>Goes catatonic for the rest of the fight, shaking and crying before beating up Hawkeye

Like all of his "badass lady" characters have a moment where this exact scenario happens. It can work when done subtly (like in the beginning, when she pulls the gun on Banner and looks genuinely rattled), but Whedon isn't exactly known for his handle on subtlety.

He's basically just a Michael Bay who reads comic books.

The saddest thing about Ultron is that his first and final scenes are so goddamn perfect.
But then in the middle he turns into a mincing comic relief character instead of a mad computer.

>Steven is eating a hamburger.
"Hey Frank, can you passte ketchup?"
>Frank pulls out a revolver and shoots the ketchup, blowing it all over the kitchen.
"Gee, Frank, you're the coolest!"

Nah, once i cooled it i realized that the most prudent thing would be to just hang close to Frank and hold off you and whoever else is after him long enough for him to escape. Though i'd probably just get wrecked by a team-up or some shit.

>Frank gets Amethyst to shapeshift into horrifying creatures to get criminals to talk.

>JW: Okay, which was also mine, and that's the interesting thing. Everybody remembers that as the worst line ever written, but the thing about that is, it was supposed to be delivered as completely offhand. [Adopts casual, bored tone.] "You know what happens when a toad gets hit by lightning?" Then, after he gets electrocuted, "Ahhh, pretty much the same thing that happens to anything else." But Halle Berry said it like she was Desdemona. [Strident, ringing voice.] "The same thing that happens to everything eeelse!" That's the thing that makes you go crazy. At least "You're a dick" got delivered right. The worst thing about these things is that, when the actors say it wrong, it makes the writer look stupid. People assume that the line... I listened to half the dialogue in Alien 4, and I'm like, "That's idiotic," because of the way it was said. And nobody knows that. Nobody ever gets that. They say, "That was a stupid script," which is the worst pain in the world.

Ha, so you'd be Frank's unwilling side-kick, and I'd be your thorn in your side.

>He's basically just a Michael Bay who reads comic books.

Oof, be a little nicer. Surely he's not that bad.

>David Tennant getting to be a goofy shitbag because he's an Avengers-level threat fighting street-level heroes
>"Stand over there forever."
>Making that one girl jump for hours, telling her to tell Jessica that Jessica was better at it
>Accidentally told a guy to go fuck himself once, sat there and watched it
>Cheats a bunch of old assholes in a game of cards
He was the best thing about Jessica Jones by a country mile.

I mean in terms of end product.
They both make big, action-packed blockbusters.

Whedon just has more nerd-cred, smarter quips, and less obvious fanservice shots. If the Transformers movies had less obnoxious dialog and protagonists, they'd basically be Joss Whedon movies.

>"If we're not back in two hours, please remove the skin from each other's faces."

Pretty much.

The very first Transformers movie is better than Age of Ultron.

>That part where he's trying to explain how difficult it can be to use his powers, since he can never use idioms, metaphors, or figures of speech
He was so fucking good. Especially that episode where she tried to use him for good and it ACTUALLY FUCKING WORKS.

I know he died, but man they need to figure out a way to bring him back, he was just too good.

I disagree, but that's only because I like the characters in AoE more than Shia LeBouf.
We've had however many movies to get to know them by that point, so Cap is enjoyable to watch even though he gets absolutely nothing to work with aside from that shitty "LANGUAGE!" joke.

*worst, and that's saying something.

If an obnoxious idiot manchild is entertaining to you, it makes me wonder why you didn't like Ultron.

I know delivery is a big deal, but that line wasn't very good.

Also, Storm is supposed to be deadpan.
Fuck this guy.

>having taste this shit.
The episode where he turns "good" was absolutely cringeworthy and he was a terrible joke villain that should never be a main antagonist.

>So basically up through AvX?
I actually think I had the computer trouble somewhere around AvX, and ended up reading it afterwards, yeah.

>recommend Bendis's
You horrible horrible person.

>X-Treme X-Men was a lot of fun.
Sounds familiar, I might have checked it out...? I think I downloaded it expecting it to be somewhat like Claremont's X-Treme before, but it was something else.

>I think that was Amazing. Don't think Yost did anything on Astonishing.
Amazing it is, then. I wasn't sure. Definitely gotta read the whole run sometime.

>I'm assuming you read Remender's UXF?
Was it the "kill Apoclypse" run? I think that was one of the last stuff I read back then, Archangel was still messed up in the head... he had his memory erased or something, right?

>As of right now, I'd say the only book with 'X' worth reading is Bunn's UXM.
I started reading X-Men '92, the current run, and what I read was nice in my opinion.
Most of the current X stuff doesn't appeal to me a lot because between ded-Rightclops, ded-Wolverine, ded-Xavier, ded-Jean, the younger original 5 being still around, Kitty being in GotG and Marvel's ALL-NEW ALL-DIFFERENT shtick, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot to salvage.

That said, I might check out Apocalypse War, for whatever reason I'm always curious about Apocalypse stories. I think I heard Banshee came back as one of the Horsemen? Always liked that guy.

>but man they need to figure out a way to bring him back, he was just too good
In the comics after he dies it turns out he has a healing factor and it returns him to life a la Green Goblin. They can easily do that here, hell, they even have the setup of him amping himself.

Cause he was a far more menacing and frightening villain then Ultron? I'll tell you what, i'd be far more scared of a manchild psychopath with mind control then of a quipy robot that gets rekt in open combat by Captain America and can't kill a fucking civilian with his blasters.

>Tyrone a gud boi, pimpin an huslin is his only choice!

>menacing and frightening
Those are the last words that come to mind when you look at Purple faggot. He was about as frightening as a can of beans.
That's why Freddy Krueger never became a joke, amirite?

>He was about as frightening as a can of beans
Literally every scene he was in was ''holy shit who's he gonna fuck up in horrible and creative ways now?"

*Literally every scene he was in was "Jesus Christ, this idiot is pathetic"

That was kind of the point. A pathetic manchild with the power to make anyone do what they want. How can you not get the implications?
Also, he had incredible willpower and took horrific torture like a man. Honestly, he was pretty badass.

>You horrible horrible person.
I know, I know, but I really don't think it's as bad as everyone believes. ANXM was the real turd. You can skip all but the last issue of Last Will & Testament if you want. The 2 Annuals (pt. 1 is UXM's, and pt. 2 is ANXM's follow a character from UXM and they might just be the 2 best issues Benis has written).

>Sounds familiar, I might have checked it out...? I think I downloaded it expecting it to be somewhat like Claremont's X-Treme before, but it was something else.
Yeah it's basically Exiles.

>Definitely gotta read the whole run sometime.
Same, Aaron really phoned it in on Wat&XM after AvX and that's when I finally got burned out on him. He launched Amazing so I wasn't feeling it.

>Was it the "kill Apoclypse" run?
Yep. That wrapped up around issue 18 and it continued on into some really cool stuff. You should reread it, so I won't answer your question cause it spoils shit.
>I think I heard Banshee came back as one of the Horsemen? Always liked that guy.
That was in the Uncanny Avengers run I mentioned.
Before you hit up that Apocalypse War bit, I'd read Uncanny X-Force v.1, then Uncanny Avengers v. 1, #1-22, then Uncanny X-Men's Apocalypse war issues.

The Apocalypse war thing isn't really a crossover, just Apoc themed stories in the 3 x-books that are currently running.

Humphries wrote a meh v.2 of Uncanny X-Force, but it has some Psylocke stuff. Also, not to discredit everyhting I've said above, but selfcest cuckoldry which was surprisingly hot.

They're too busy saving the world from Thanos and Galactus to give a shit that some mafiosos and gangbangers get gunned down. Plus they know that if they captured Punisher he'd get away. And they know deep down that innocent people will die for every day he is prevented from killing the guilty. Since they are unable to deal with street-level crime letting someone else fight it dirty is a lesser evil. And also for a mortal with no powers Frank will be more of a challenge to take down than most. Ultimately it's too much of a headache for them to deal with so they just say fuck it.

>y-you just don't get the implications
OR IT WASN'T A FUCKING GOOD VILLAIN. I get what he's supposed to be, doesn't mean he's not a pile of garbage.
>A pathetic manchild with the power to make anyone do what they want.
How many times do I have to repeat this?
Do me a favor and get some fucking standards. He was an embarrassing villain. There is not a single scene where he felt even remotely threatening.
> Honestly, he was pretty badass.
Please, he was a joke throughout the entire series and died like a bitch he is.

So why you kill Quick Silver Joss? According to you it was your fight to kill him in the film.

>I'm a monster that can kill people if I lose my temper
>I'm a monster because I can't have babies

Joss's fame is clearly due to others keeping his retardation in check.

He was better then Quiptron, which was the original point.

Are you sure? Buffy was pretty damn retarded.

They're equally bad.

>And also for a mortal with no powers Frank will be more of a challenge to take down than most.
This, I think what throws them off is that Frank isn't going to take them head on like their usual rogues gallery. He doesn't want to have anything to do with them and will use any means necessary to escape. And what's more of a headache is that he can blend in with the crowd unlike their supervillains. Punisher knows the streets better than your average superhero. And it's going to be hard to track him down again.

It's like watching a tiger trying to catch a mouse that's too small and fast to track down and catch. The tiger is out of the mouse's league and easily more powerful. But the mouse is more familiar with his surroundings and knows where to hide and out think the tiger.

In a straight up fight the Punisher would lose. But if the Punisher's is only seeking to get away then he is capable of doing it. I've seen him distract Spider-Man by shooting a criminal in the guts so that Spider-Man will have to save the criminal instead of chasing after him. In his stint with the Avengers he never really fights with the Avengers. He just finds ways to distract them and make himself a secondary objective.

you can't kill the punisher. the punisher is an ideal, something that will live long after frank is dead.

I mostly avoided WatXM because of the title, also it featured two things I abhor: Hellfire kids and morrison homages. I was interested in Amazing simply because Yost, also I heard he was gonna use the classic Wolvrine/Colossus/Nightcrawler/Storm(?) lineup in a book, and he could strike gold with that.

>selfcest cuckoldry
Haha I heard about that bit, I think. The downside is that I HATE Fantomex.

I did finish UXF, then, I just don't recall Warren's status -after- the main story so well.

>X-Treme basically Exiles.
Ah, THAT was it. I'm not so keen on alternate universes, but might check it out, too.

The 80's Transformer film is better then most things.

>I just don't recall Warren's status -after- the main story so well.
Ah, Life seed grants him a new body with no memories.
Archangel just APPEARS again in Bunn's UXM, but frankly, the "revival" is pretty cool.

>simply because Yost
Guy strikes gold so often, it's a mistake not to read his stuff.

>hate Fantomex
In that case then, you should read Spurrier's X-Force for sure.

>becomes famous by making a tv show all about humans murdering vampires and "demons"
>complains about murder


Don't forget that he made Firefly, which had a bunch of characters using guns.


I was about to ask what was Warren's current status, but I just recalled he was in the Civil War II tie-in, and he was talking regularly to Ororo, so guess he's to his old self.

What about Longshot? Thought it was a bit disheartening that he never got his memory back as far as I read on X-Factor.

>What about Longshot?
Honestly can't remember the last time I saw him in a book.

Welcome back to the X though, friend. Hope I was able to help some!

Also, PAD's All-New X-Factor, Spurrier's X-Force might be worth checking out.
Magneto's solo was pretty fun too.

last actual book he was in was the "canon not canon" longshot saves the marvel universe written by dr mcninjas author
he doesnt have his memories of making his own baby verson of himself with time travel, but he remembers dazzler and shit iirc

that being said, neither of them recognized/mentioned eachother in it, even if she was theoretically mistique in disguise, and as far as i remember dazzler (not the edgy sidecut one, nor mistique posing as her) from x-treme x-men, referenced their relationship, but no babby

he knows his powers and past and shit though, so i guess its just an apathetic writer amalgam of the characters past

>recognized/mentioned each other
when they met in his issue
in his, they didnt reference each other at all, and in hers (which he didnt appear obviously) he was just referenced as an ex

he is right but the teenagers and conservatives here love FRANK meme because it lets them live their fantasies of being able to shoot anyone they don't approve of.

I dunno, I feel like if I was in the same position as Joss and wanted to tell stories about saving people and not killing people, I'd still want the Punisher around to be the anti-thesis of that. To have someone to point at and go "these guys aren't him".

The Punisher is a shitty character who appeals only to sociopaths and children.

Genre conventions are a thing.

>think of the poor crime lords who don't care how many innocent people die as long as their wallet stays fat!

>You can't like the Punisher as a character even though he's not supposed to be a hero or good person
>You can't think the Punisher doesn't hit innocents because that's not "realistic"
>You can't like Punisher and Captain America because Cred Forums insists he's a self righteous asshole
>You can't like guys like Punisher or Superman at the same time

Why does Frank attract such retarded shitposting

>murder is a good thing and I should be able to do it whenever I like

>let me twist this argument to fit my narrative
You can stop shitposting. You suck at it.

it's convenient he only kills stereotypical bad guys, we can't have the readers risking to have to actually think about Punisher's actions

>mobsters and serial killers are not really bad people in real life, so fiction shouldn't portray them as such
Fuck off.

>I like both the Punisher and Superman

That only shows what kind of hypocrite you are.

It's convenient that he never dies too

Fiction is full of contrivances

Either you buy it or you don't

I don't see how buying that Punisher only kills bad guys with no civvie casualties is any harder to buy than the notion of Superman existing at all, or any other crazy fantastical thing

I love him but I agree he sounds like a faggot

>You can't think the Punisher doesn't hit innocents because that's not "realistic"
I like this one especially because you can't tell me that Batman never killed anyone.

With beatings he dishes out it's not realistic that no Gotham criminal ever died from brain damage.
>b-but he holds back
Yeah, I'm sure it mattered to the SWAT guy who tried to kill a cat in Year One and got punched through a wall, for instance.

This, plus what fucking innocent civilian is going to be in a mob don's HQ or a crack den or any other place where criminals gather in a cluster.

>It's convenient that he never dies too

Superman doesn't try to sell based on realism.

Punisher's appeal is the supposed gritness and realism of a "normal" guy killing criminals and dealing with the cynical nature of the real world unlike those "childish" superheroes in colorful costumes, just like all the vigilante movies of the 80s.

While in reality Punisher's approach to these issues and how he deal with them is even more childish with its portrayal of criminals and the world in general.
They don't even have the guts to portray the Punisher as the deranged serial killer he is but instead try to paint him in a sympathetic view while he mows down cartoony evil criminals that might as well be alien for how they are portrayed.

>inb4 they did in that one issue/run this justify the entire character

>if other characters do stupid shit this excuses both!

Nice children mentality there, kiddo.

>please stop using your brain, it's fiction so nothing has to make sense

The people in the building next door, duh.


Please, inform us ignorant peons about the humanizing elements of a black crack dealer or a Russian human trafficker. These marginalized people need their voices to be heard.

>Enjoying different stories makes you a hypocrite

Bait, I know, but c'mon.


>though other filmmakers seem to be using them better

The Russos sure as fuck aren't using Vision well.

>OK everybody fights, except Vision. You just float there for a while

Except that's not what I said, but please use more greentext, it's not like you have any real counter-arguments anyway

Missing the point, I see.

Punisher's appeal is a pissed off super competent soldier man killing shitty people

Realism doesn't enter into it. He punched a polar bear. He had a fancy techno van. He launched a nuke from a soviet missle silo and rode it to escape the facility. He was a Frankenstein. He literally killed the last survivors of humanity after a nuclear holocaust.

The Punisher is about as "realistic" as the Fast and Furious movies. If anyone tells you that they enjoy his stories because he's "realistic" they're full of shit.

>we shouldn't kill
>except for this guy, he should be killed

>Amerifats who never encountered a mobster in their lives outside of the Sorpanos DVD sets think real life mobsters are not cartoonishly evil bastards
This is fucking embarrassing and that's why you Amerifats need your own Russian 90s so you could stop talking out of your retarded ass.
To what? Smug know-it-all shitposting that says nothing of value and is just WAHH I DON'T LIKE THIS?

Making internally consistent narrative sense is different than being realistic

If the Punisher killed someone innocent, he'd shoot himself.

As opposed to say, how Captain America is probably never going to get in serious trouble for throwing that guy out of an airplane, or how Iron Man never got in trouble for having his cyborg Thor clone kill that big black dude

You complain that these comics depicted a childish portrayal of criminals and the world.

While it was done in sarcasm, I wouldn't mind hearing what you mean when you are trying to garner sympathy for the people Frank kills.

Hi Anita

He means we should all look up to Wolverine.

And they like don't save anyone or do anything else? user, just watch cape porn.

Vision is watching his waifu.

>fascist crap
Literally what in the fuck does that have to do with anything?
AoU was shit, fuck you, Joss. Cabin in the Woods was alright, tho.

Cabin in the Woods was unwatchable garbage and it's baffling to see that so many people like it.

Why would a facility that created and stores these things not have a kill button. Or require some form of identification for releasing all the monsters?

Or ways of killing them? You'd think that a secruity team would have ways of killing one or two of them. Or have a lockdown control center.

>bad people aren't real it's all made up
Hahahaha holy fuck how sheltered are you?

Thanks Phil Mitchell.

>or how Iron Man never got in trouble for having his cyborg Thor clone kill that big black dude
To be fair, Thor beat the shit out of him when he found out.

It was super retarded. Hell, why would they have a button that releases all of them? You'd think if they were retarded enough to put a function like that in the first place, it would require like ten people to approve it.

I was about to say "Thank god Whedon doesn't run Marvel" but honestly, I I'm not sure it could get much worse if he did.

They take apprehending dangerous criminals into their own hands. That's the point, to go after villains the cops are ill-equipped to face. Not sentencing. I enjoy the Punisher as a character, I like his comics, but for once I wish someone in universe would just tell him "No, we don't need you. We don't need a lone gunman without powers who goes around killing the people cops and FBI can get, and often do. Ignoring all sense of due process."

Most of the time, when Frank goes up against actual Supervillains, he fails. Nothing he does actually makes a larger difference than stopping some drug shipments, while at the same time, he inspires people like the Vigilante Squad.

You're honestly retarded if you think this. First off, Frank goes primarily after people that the fbi CAN'T get, and other heroes don't bother. Second, he's saving lives every time he's out there. Does that not matter?
>No, we don't need you.
Yes, i am certain the hundreds of people he's directly saved in his career feel like that.

>First off, Frank goes primarily after people that the fbi CAN'T get
Now you're just making things up.

>FBI can easily arrest drug Kingpins and slavers and totally doesn't need years of surveillance and tracking while the body count increases, also the police isn't corrupt at all, no sir-ee, and certainly wouldn't take bribes or turn a blind eye because they get something in return

>FBI can easily arrest drug Kingpins and slavers and totally doesn't need years of surveillance and tracking while the body count increases
If Frank doesn't need the same level of scrutiny into someone's activities to kill them that the FBI needs just to make an arrest, not even convict, but arrest, how is it he's supposed to have never killed an innocent? It makes no sense.

Obviously in real life he'd make mistakes when IDing criminals or a random person would catch a random bullet but in the story it's very explicit he doesn't get it wrong and he gets suicidal when he thinks he has (and then it turns out he was mind controlled or it was a trick by a villain or some comics bs).

Reminds me of an episode of Dexter where he got it wrong and killed an innocent person and just doesn't give a shit after the episode ends and the writers forget all about it kek.

Frank doesn't do things by the book. He uses torture and illegal searching. It's A LOT easier to obtain the evidence he needs that way. And Frank is the epitome of street smarts, he knows who's who and what's what, who to ask about what and stuff like that. The man knows more about criminal organizations then the criminals themselves.

>dude hunting down and killing criminals is bad and fascism lmao
>The Avengers invade another sovereign country, impose martial law on the surrounding area and slaughter HYDRA agents to get a stupid staff they didn't even know how to use

>it just keeps him palatable for people who can't stomach the idea of a conflicted protagonist.

>psyho murderer with a thin patina of righteousness
>conflicted protagonist

What I think would be likely to happen more than him killing a completely innocent civilian, since he is supposed to be more careful than that, would be him killing people who were coerced into working for some mob but aren't really irredeemable sadists, or accidentally killing an undercover agent in a gang, or an informant, or messing up a larger sting operation law enforcement is planning. Granted, this is a problem with a lot of superheroes, no just Frank, but many of them are stopping in-progress crimes, rather than going after criminal organizations, and are less likely to kill as frequently and casually.

>He uses torture and illegal searching
Torture is known to produce inaccurate results. It only works as often in comics because plot. You've got a point about the illegal searches, but I'm not sure what instances you mean. Breaking into a drug dealer's base of operations? Why is it that he knows where that is when the cops don't? Oh right, because he twisted the arm of some street dealer, and he just happened to give the real answer.

>Torture is known to produce inaccurate results
He tends to be VERY thorough about his info.
>Breaking into a drug dealer's base of operations?
For example. Or breaking into a front for mob and finding their files.
>Oh right, because he twisted the arm of some street dealer, and he just happened to give the real answer.
Or, you know, like i said, street smarts. He knows where to get info, hell, he has his own snitches that he keeps alive just for that. Or he poses like a customer. He does shit that is both illegal and too dangerous for law enforcement, so he gets better results.

>Or breaking into a front for mob and finding their files.
Why is that more effective than the FBI or the police showing up at their door with a search warrant?

Who let Joss out of his cuckshed?

>They don't even have the guts to portray the Punisher as the deranged serial killer he is but instead try to paint him in a sympathetic view

hi joss


>sent a random guy his brothers severed head

taking the banter a bit too far there frank

Which Frank is this?

Hey, if you can't take the bantz, you shouldn't ANTS.

>I don't like a thing so I'd forbid making comics about it

Ultimate Frank

>No one ever complains that Superman doesnt accidentally eye beam people.

I think there's the scope for the not-super powered heroes in Marvel and DC to have more realistic stories told about them. Characters like Spidey, Superman or even Batman are slaves to their own fame and would never look at that drug-pusher on the street corner as anything more than someone who gets knocked out in one punch on a throwaway page.

Characters like Daredevil and the Punisher aren't recognisable enough that there's no expectation that their stories will be grandiose and culminate with rockets flying at puppy shelters, so you have leeway to tell a wider variety of story with them. This means that the comics you've referenced (which I've not read) can exist in different runs alongside others that portray Frank as a regular murderhobo, and that's fine. People buy into characters for different reasons, it's when one party gets too vocal that the stories start to cater to that demographics expectations.

>Someone could essentially be frank in real life.

>When Whedon understands Superman more than Snyder does

I admit I haven't read much of Punisher, I've seen him more in crossovers than his actual comics, but to me it seems like Frank is the kind of character that would benefit more from a noire setting, set outside the realm of mainstream superheros, than being part of the Marvel universe. Something more like Sin City or Watchmen, where everyone is sleazy and Frank is just slightly less sleazy. Maybe his comics are like this, mind, and I'm just ignorant of the matter.

why would red skull make someone good, just for someone new to fight? must get boring only getting beaten up by steve rogers

>The Punisher just shoots up places. And if you're telling me he's never hit an innocent

But Cyclops firing his punch beams never hit an innocent. Right...

Difference is I'll eventually stop Bats.

cyclops has preternatural trigonometry skills as a secondary mutation

Whedon is bizarre because he knows that he keeps doing the same shit over and over, but refuses to ever change it.
>Every character has to be clever and make references, making every character sound the same
>Always needs a girl that beats up all the guys, because that is the only way to show a woman is strong
>Always has to kill someone because that's the only way to induce drama
>People point this out

Punisher works because in most of his stories, he isn't portrayed as heroic. He's a force of nature, an ugly side of the idea of going above the law to stop criminals. He isn't "good," he simply is. War Zone (the comic) was great at showing that he wasn't a good guy, he's just a weapon aimed at the right targets.

Also, it's been tackled before when Frank kills an innocent. He doesn't take it well, and has even disappeared for long bouts because of it.

It was mediocre. It wasn't anything special, but I didn't hate it.

The Ennis shit has him on shit world and him being shit to the right people.

not even surprised he hates fronk
with how liberal marvel is i'm surprised they haven't killed him or made he go after racist


>that's fascist crap

Whedon keeps using "fascist" when I think he means "authoritarian".

Basically, fascism is authoritarianism with a nationalist and/or right-leaning slant to it. Superheroes are without a doubt authoritarian by nature, thats what vigilantes are. But I'm at a loss of why Whedon would see Batman as a nationalist or right-leaning. Most superheroes are painfully liberal.

Not only is he wrong, he is a hypocrite about it. As a storyteller he knows that stories of *heroes* are almost always authoritarian in nature. From classical literature of Ulysses going his own direction not that of the rules of man or even Gods, to Buffy being a self-appointed chosen one, to Firefly's vigilantes, apparently its ok for Whedon's authoritarians to exist but its wrong when others do it.

(Just like, say, his feminist rants about violence against women when he pulls stuff like killing Tara right after having sex with Willow, he turned her into a sexual object of revenge. But its ok when Whedon does it, he has good intentions, everyone else is an asshole).

It just really bugs me that a professional storyteller knows that telling stories is about conflict, that we like reading about heroes not committees, he knows this and he does this, but its everyone else thats in the wrong. I dont give a shit about his politics, I just wish the flaming hypocrisy would die down.

Yes. Excuses all day long but there are support systems to help people. If you're mentally ill to the point you want to kill other people then no sympathy, you die.

Wolverine,a X-Men, has a kill count on par with Frank.I didn't read all the posts,but i am sure someone has brought this up.X-23,Cable,Domino,Dead Pool,Gambit,Cyclops,they've all killed,hell Scott set up the X-Force at one point just so they could get away with killing more often.

>she's sporting a much more feminist build recently.
Well, color me surprised!

Superheroes aren't inherently authoritarian, they swing between anarchist and authoritarian depending on the situation.

>And if you're telling me he's never hit an innocent, then I'm telling you, that's fascist crap.
The man is a living meme.

>One of the things I like about the X-Men is they're not killing people. I miss the idea of... heroes who stop that kind of thing from happening.
yeah i kinda agree with this sentiment but the punisher is based as fuck

wasn't frank debut as villain for spiderman?

>And if you're telling me he's never hit an innocent, then I'm telling you, that's

COMICS. Where the Hulk also doesn't kill dozens with every rampage, and every New York-devastating event just needs Damage Control to rebuild everything.
Oh, and where everyone who does die comes back anyway.

>A mortal man shooting heavily armed villains is cowardly and likely to cause civilian casualties
>Mutants, some with superhuman endurance or healing factors, using claws, eye beams, fireworks, exploding cards, and lighting on villains, sometimes ordinary humans, is not cowardly or likely to cause civilian casualties
Bravo, Joss.

Yeah, because there aren't people who the cops/feds KNOW are scum, but can't get enough on to beat their lawyers and/or corrupt officials. D'you think Frank should be rying to get mob bosses arrested for tax evasion?

He's bad at writing characters he's unfamiliar with, and can't help forcing characters into his style of acting and talking like snarky teenagers. If he can't relate to them and force them into that snarky box, they're alien to him and he's unwilling to work to find facets about the character he could portray as human and interesting without changing them. The punisher could be an interesting character to write for, but because he's so focused on the "Well I DON'T find him cool. I WOULDN'T do things like that, they're wrong!" he's unwilling to explore like an experienced writer would. He wouldn't have to have him be a complete god of heroism presented as a man we can all root for, or an evil monster beyond gone. He could portray him as a human doing stuff he shouldn't and having others pay for it, it doesn't have to glorify hyper violence or get rid of it entirely. But unless you're able to effectively spout buffy shit or pout like all everyone does in his writing you're effectively off the list, too much work to learn how to write people who act like unacceptable human beings. Nothing new, he's been shitting up all the guest writing he's done for years instead of watching the content and trying to copy the style, everyone just acts like a snarky teen the second he's able to throw that shit in.

Because they'll get warning of that from somebody on the take. Who's gonna tell them the Punisher's coming?

He is such a whiny faggot

Based Phillipino President dude.

>Buffy being a self-appointed chosen one
I only watched a little bit of Buffy, but wasn't the "chosen One" role larger than her choosing it? I mean, there was a prophesy about it.

in that comic Shaw was an illusion, which Scott knew.

I don't believe in killing people. That's why I would kill frank.

Yes but it only works as long as you don't stop and think about it.

This is why any time there's a plot about registration or something, it falls apart.

>Its kind of why I prefer Marvel more, theyre typically more practical with dealibg with villains over DC heroes.
You mean like when Rogue told Magneto he was as bad as Red Skull after Mags killed him? Or Slott with "no one does"?

>mfw I go to see the latest action movies with my gf and her middle aged parents on a weekly basis

fuck off gramps

>Xmen don't kill anybody
>Storm straight up murders Toad in the movie he wrote

Why change perfection?

I hate Joss Wheadon and everyone who likes him. Firefly was meh.

Are we talking about Doom here or what?

Why can't Stan Lee absorb this guy? Perhaps he has no soul and the Master cant eat him?

Perhaps he is too revolting for Stan Lee to absorb?

>Welcome back to the X though, friend. Hope I was able to help some!
Thanks, a real mugga never quits!

All of those are on the to-read list, particularly PAD's X-Factor. Always.

>he knows his powers and past and shit though, so i guess its just an apathetic writer amalgam of the characters past
Well that's something, I guess. Longshot Saves the Marvel Universe looked fun.

>he doesnt have his memories of making his own baby verson of himself with time travel
...And he's probably thankful for that. What a mess, didn't remember this detail.

>You can't like Punisher and Captain America because Cred Forums insists he's a self righteous asshole
Cred Forums frickin' LOVES Cap.

>Punisher's not supposed to be a good person
He is, though. Not hero, anti-hero, but he's definitely a decent guy. Power Pack-friendly decent level guy.

Whenever I re-read or even remember that story I get SO pissed.
At least he somewhat acknowledged he done fucked up back then, at the end of X-Force.


The trail of corpses pointing their way.

And superhuman skills, yeah. Don't recall if just on par with vampires or higher.

>latest action movies
>fuck off gramps
Ask your gf's middle aged parents about the good stuff, from the 80s.Gramps got the good stuff if they could appreciate it.

>Punisher's not supposed to be a good person
>He is, though. Not hero, anti-hero, but he's definitely a decent guy. Power Pack-friendly decent level guy.
Punisher absolutely can be a good person. This is can be proved even in the MAX series when he saved that little girl in Russia. And another example of this can be seen in the Fury MAX series when both Fury and Frank were doing a mission in Vietnam and they stumbled on an innocent Vietnamese kid. Fury asked Frank if he had it in him to kill the kid and Frank said no.

Not a lot of people see the human side of Frank but it has always been there.

>Not a lot of people see the human side of Frank but it has always been there.
His favorite gun...


Stay calm and ignore Sensitive Joss Whedon.

If I keep on killing killers, then the number will definitely go down.

I'm not seeing most of the folks in here disagreeing with Frank's killing spree, I'm seeing most people questioning Whedon's knee-jerk usage of "fascism" as shorthand for "things I don't like".

The Punisher is a relic of the times, first the late-70s and early-80s where the culture was looking at what appeared to be a never-ending rise is criminal activities, then on to the early-90s EXTREME comics. At first he was seen as perhaps a necessary evil, then on to being a "kewl" character for the gun-loving comics of the time.

Those times have largely past, Frank is nowhere near as popular as he used to be. Spending too much time on the Punisher strikes me as about as relevant as sales of Shazam comics these days.

Whedon comes across as a kid who has learned a new curse word and is giving it a try at every possible chance. Everyone else telling stories with conflict and (gasp!) violence are evil bastards but he is the light of shining purity. It gets old.


He would also make all male characters black and all female characters white

I bet you could make a long list of heroes who accidentally killed an innocent

But not all killers are equal.

>I don't care if he's a pedophile, rapist murderer
>It's wrong to kill him after he just fucked a 6 year old!

>look mom, i posted it again!

Shut up Batman you child touching faggot. You know what needs to be done. Get your hand out of Robin's tights and into Joker's pants.

Is that from when Gordon was Batman?

Oh, fuck, i didn't read it and thought someone just reposted the original image. Btw i'm a huge Frankfag and constantly call out Batman on his shit, so yea.

But if you don't kill a killer the number of killers will stay the same.

>there cant be any characters whos politics i dont personally agree with or whos genre of story i dont enjoy!

The last panel is exactly why I don't like no-kill rules. It's selfish.

And if Frank ever killed every killer on earth he'd probably kill himself last, leaving zero killers. He would have fulfilled his purpose. He just has to leave himself as the last person on his hit list, because who else is gonna deal with the others?

>And if Frank ever killed every killer on earth he'd probably kill himself last, leaving zero killers. He would have fulfilled his purpose.
I'm pretty sure he's stated this exact thing.

>Longshot Saves the Marvel Universe looked fun.
it was. if you like mcninja at all, its a similar kind of randomness. that, or if you like the inbetweener, since he's both the antagonist, and the damsel in distress

If you rape a killer the number of rapists will go up.

Superheroes are inherently libertarian, what are you talking about?

And there's nothing "fascist" or "authoritarian" about writers pretending that the Punisher would never hit an innocent as he sprays bullets everywhere. It's absurd fantasizing, but it's not a government imposing endless freedom-killing rules on people.

>From classical literature of Ulysses going his own direction not that of the rules of man or even Gods,

Like that statement right there describes libertarianism, not authoritarianism.

I don't believe Libertarians are about being able to do whatever the fuck they want just because they can, that's more of Anarchist thing.

Superheores are an authoritarian fantasy. What if there was one guy who'd tell everyone what what to do? And had means to make them? That'd be great as long as he's a good guy.

Word fascism is overused. But it's definitely authoritarian.

>Superheores are an authoritarian fantasy. What if there was one guy who'd tell everyone what what to do? And had means to make them

You don't see Spider-Man or even the Punisher running around telling people what to do. (Well, aside from an occasional "stay in school, kids".)

Heck, you don't even see Captain America do it.

>What if there was one guy who'd tell everyone what what to do?

Superheroes don't do that. They almost exclusively hunt down murderers, which is uncontroversially both a crime and a Bad Thing just about everywhere in the world.

You don't see superheroes busting people for marijuana possession or improperly filing their taxes.

Well, they don't tell verbally. They just violently enforce whatever their idea of justice is.


Yes. That's the fantasy. What if we could do away with all this civil rights and due process nonsense and just have a guy who writes his own warrants? That'd solve everything because he would only go after bad people (People I don't like).

And that's libertarian if anything, an ubermench taking matters into his own hands because the government and law enforcement is useless.

Well, I suppose it's both. Depends on how much you like some kind of legal rights and how much it's social darwinism fuck yeah.

"i think all protagonists should confirm to my idea of morals or be killed in universe"

Depends on which superheroes you're talking about. a fair number of them turn criminals over to the police precisely so they can still have their day in court.

As for warrants, the necessity of one depends on the circumstances leading up to the hero capturing the villain.

Interesting how it can embody two diametrically opposed concepts.

>Here's why I'm not running Marvel: If I was, I would kill the Punisher. I don't believe in what he does.

The world is full of people who do things we don't believe in? Doesn't stop them from being interesting. That's why I liked Bernthal Punisher so much.

Existence is cruel, uncaring and social darwinist. No matter what trappings your society is it will be cruel, uncaring and social darwinist. Tyranny is the end point of everything.

This. I really enjoy Whedon's work, but he frequently has a POV that I don't get. Like his views on ESB.

>Tyranny is the end point of everything.

Yet we've slowly been moving away from tyranny over the millenia.

Humanity still has strong authoritarian inclinations (witness the alt-right and the SJWs), but we're a lot more free than most of our ancestors were.

>And if Frank ever killed every killer on earth he'd probably kill himself last, leaving zero killers.

This pretty much happened in The Punisher: The End.

There's also a Moon Knight story where he outright says:

>Me, I know where I stand. And I don't worry about it. Because when it's over. When they're all dead and the war is over... there'll still be one bullet left. To clear all accounts.

underdated toast

I strongly agree, but probably for different reasons. If you love the Punisher and he's your favourite character I just assume you're dodgy.

We are richer than our ancestors. Even lowliest slaves live like kings of old.

But that doesn't mean we moved that much towards freedom. First of all, it's a globalist society, so just being first worlder makes you an aristocrat and driver of chink slaves. And even if you are a first worlder, how much doing what you actually want (and not what you are paid for) can get you?

>>And if Frank ever killed every killer on earth he'd probably kill himself last, leaving zero killers.
>This pretty much happened in The Punisher: The End.

And Punisher Kills MU

>actively running around and killing people as a vigilante
>"the state does bad things sometimes therefore we shouldn't trust the people we vote into office to dispense the law"

i bet you like lynch mobs too user. how bout you put your libertarian boner away and let the adults talk.

We'll never have freedom from hunger and physical needs until we hit the singularity, so in that sense we'll never have freedom.

But we also don't have, in the first world, kings and despots who can have any of us beheaded at a whim. Heck, even most of the rest of the world at least pays lip service to due process. That wasn't the case for most of history.


>rather than going after criminal organizations, and are less likely to kill as frequently and casually
But I think Frank is more likely to go after groups like the Mafia under his own volition, not while they're committing a crime. I think it's actually pretty rare for him to Frank a criminal right as they're committing a crime.

You're completely misinterpreted the comment. The user is pointing out the hypocrisy of Superman and Spider-man holding a holier-than-thou attitude towards heroes that are either forced to kill in self-defense or for the self-defense others, but turning a blind eye or even commending the State authorities who kill indiscriminately, especially when the victims happen to be innocent civilians who have no connection to the conflict. Perhaps you should follow your own advice and leave moral concerns to adults who understand the necessary utilization of violence in proper context.

Then again, I'm certain you're one of those people who thought American imperialism was morally justified and that those savage, Third-world Vietnamese and Filipinos deserved to be put in concentration camps or get slaughtered en masse for the crime of being Southeast Asian.

Thankfully, that wasn't Ennis.

Wops aren't white, you're thinking of WASPs

How does Frank's muderquest equate to fascism? Murder isn't tied to any one ideology

Joss just wants everyone to think he's intelligent and that he knows what he's talking about. He's insecure.

Empire Strikes Back?

Neat, an old favorite in a fun story. Must read.

>What if there was one guy who'd tell everyone what what to do? And had means to make them?
Some go for that, they're called superheroes. You know, the guys who occasionally try to take over the world.
I think it was Stan Lee who said "maybe Dr Doom would do a good job of ruling the world, he's a smart guy, smarter than the ones running it anyway". It's the means to get there that make him a villain.
Also the fact he's always been sort of a jackass.

>From classical literature of Ulysses going his own direction not that of the rules of man or even Gods,
At least in the 90s movie, he ends up just asking wtf the gods wanted, and Poseidon tells him to acknowledge he needed them, so I'm not sure where that's supposed to stand in all that politickery.

>Some go for that, they're called superheroes.
*superVILLAINS, goddammit

He'd be able to make stuff as good as Doctor Horrible consistently if he just put his ego in check.
His work strikes me as super insecure.

Wow Joss Whedon said this? I don't believe you.

Because Purple Man is supposed to be a narcissistic manchild, Ultron is supposed to be HAL 9000 with daddy issues.

Ultron was shit because he was a poor adaptation of a good villain, Purple Man was great because he was a perfect adaptation of a good villain. The only way he could have been better is if he actually turned purple and also didn't die.

>Exploring a powerset and hero/villain relationship in an original way
You must understand, I'd wager you're the only person on this board with this bad of an opinion.

Hell I can dig it.

A bit overly forceful, but honestly true. Punisher is also super inconsistent in an annoying way, cause all his writers try to make him special right but also disagree on what that means; so sometimes he blows away pick pockets, reformed villains, parents, people who killed in self defense and then will defend people like Red Hulk cause he's military too.

Killgrave was that selfish, impulsive part of the human psyche that operates off of purely selfish desire given form.
He was a lonely dude who wanted everything and had the ability to literally have whatever he wanted. He was an unpredictable rapist who had no problem fucking with, murdering, or torturing children, the elderly, random civilians, and even his own parents.

He was goofy, but that was to contrast with the horrible shit he was doing; it made him unpredictable rather than an edgelord.

Ultron was a shit-tier adaptation of one of the best Avengers villains ever. In the comics he's an extinction-level threat; in the movie, he bumblefucks around and tries to drop a city out of the sky. He has shit plans with no end-game or failsafes and is just above Justin Hammer in terms of MCU villains who are comically non-intimidating.

Killgrave was like ordering a hot dog and getting a 10/10 wienie.
Ultron was like ordering a burger and getting a wet dog turd covered in t-shirt slogans.

I appreciate when people get FRANKED because it's fucking satisfying in an over-the-top, 80's action movie way.
That Frank Castle is a loose cannon who doesn't play by the rules, but dammit he gets results!

>Punisher's appeal is the supposed gritness and realism of a "normal" guy killing criminals and dealing with the cynical nature of the real world unlike those "childish" superheroes in colorful costumes

His appeal is that he's a fucking cool guy covered in skulls who murders the everloving fuck out of objective scumbags. He fucking fights an invincible Russian tranny, there's nothing "realistic" about the Punisher anymore than there's anything "realistic" about Snake Plissken or Ash Williams, that's his charm.

>"Criminals deserve sympathy, Punisher is a stupid character."
>Punisher kills dudes who are clearly evil though, read a comic sometime
>"Lol u missed the point, let me offer no rebuttal"

It's like the modern progressive viewpoints summed up in one succinct metaphor.

I feel like that's the point though.
It's like watching Evil Dead 2 and being like "but chainsaws are heavy, surely that would slip off of his stump".

Like, it's meant to be clever schlock (which is really what Joss is best at).

The quips show his insecurity. When a writer is insecure they don't commit to the story fully and you get excessive quips.
It's a reflex to feeling what you are writing is not smart enough.

So you don't read Punisher comics? Because many do portray Frank as a violent psychopath that you only root for because he's killing people far worse than himself. Many others remove the focus from Frank entirely and use him as a force of nature.
Casuals need to stop posting.

>Implying protagonists can't be bad people
>Implying protagonist means "good guy"
>Implying a shell-shocked vet trying to justify his murder sprees as "justice" and "vengeance" isn't conflicted
>Implying Punisher isn't obviously an anti-hero
>Implying the fact that he's a guy who does terrible shit to bad people for the greater good isn't the entire point of his character

Whedon was probably only talking about the X-Men in his movies and not the actual X-Men series. waitaminute...

Ash made a harness and some supports for the chainsaw, though.

Then at the sequels they just said "screw it, it just locks in place and turns on somehow".

But alot of Punisher fans are pic related.

See, I like that he's this grim hunk of shit that exists in the same time and place as Squirrel Girl and Howard the Duck.

Like, oh no, the Wrecking Crew are robbing a bank! Better put them in jail!
Meanwhile, there's a load of pedophiles and human traffickers who need a dose of justice. Frank gets to deal with those.

>I think it was Stan Lee who said "maybe Dr Doom would do a good job of ruling the world, he's a smart guy, smarter than the ones running it anyway".
No wonder why he's called ''The Man''.

>she's sporting a much more feminist build recently
Oh can we please make "feminist" new slang for fat?
Cred Forums did it with "Google", surely we can make this take off.

>Hey Mike, how's the knee?
>Ah, the surgery went off without a hitch, but I gotta stay laid up for a few weeks. I gotta make sure I hit the gym once I'm recuperated, don't wanna end up looking all feminist.

Look at the scene again. The bullet holes in the walls are pellets being spread.

Yea it's beautiful that you have something for the idealists and the cynics. ''Goofy Supervillain with a gimmick robbing banks and not going out of your way to kill anyone? Spiderman is here for you''
''Slaver piece of shit who'd just walk the next day due to connections and is low profile enough so that most heroes don't notice and you consider them geeks? Here's Frank ready to Frank your Frank with his Franking Frank.''
''Oh, and if you're EXTRA lucky, here's Moon Knight instead, ready to repaint the walls with you''

Fuck me blind.

Take this blindfold and bend over.

For a moment, I thought you were talking about the idea that killing Frank is bad

>One of the things I like about the X-Men is they're not killing people

>OK everybody fights, except Vision. You just float there for a while

What I gather from Vision is that he seems to consider himself the more 'civilized and advanced' member of the team, probably justified since he is an android with the goddamn MIND STONE in his head.

He is probably just surveying the fight from above and making sure the 'lesser humans' don't end up killing each other, only stepping in when his presence is immediately needed.

It still hurts, doesn't it user?

have you considered lobotomies?