WHO IS BETTER ?

His name is Saitama

Dragon Ball was based off Journey to the West, and DBZ was based off Superman. The Goku that everyone knows, the one from Z, is literally just Japanese Superman.

Dragon Ball Minus

GET 'EM WET SHAGGY

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the side characters in dragonball are now stronger than most versions of clark, and this is likely to continue

The idea of goku's dad sending him to earth in secret to escape the fate of the rest of the species and the

Are lovely. I never understood why people gets so assblasted when Toriyama is a superman fan.

Superman. How is this a contest? He's the better hero, better person, betterEVERYTHING than Gokunwill ever be. Goku can fight, but that's it. Also what's with all this Cred Forums theads in Cred Forums?

Goku is a homage to Superman

there's nothing to discuss here

I MADE THIS ONE because i like superman ..

>why people gets so assblasted when Toriyama is a superman fan.

This is why. youtube.com/watch?v=L0D0VGomWb4

It is literally just this.

To guys that grew up watching Toonami Superman is the wetblanket guy from JLU, and that's assuming they watched JLU in the first place or the grouchy guy with the constantly constipated expression that looks down on humanity and hugs his gf in the ruins of Metropolis while people crawl on their knees.

To them Goku is a bro figure. He was what they watched after school. Superman is a lame asshole who can't relate to humanity.

They don't read comics, so they don't know about Man for All Seasons or Birthright or even All-Star. They don't know about Last Son or Joe Casey on Action Comics.

All they know is that Deathbattle says he's a boring invincible guy while Goku is the everyman that's always trying and always bettering himself.

When that's all they know is it any wonder they get salty discussing Superman and Goku? Because its fucking obvious who the better character is. Its the one that has thoughtful literary themes in his makeup and not "eat fight eat more".

>source your: your ass
Seriously, he was already fan of Superman way before Dragon Ball and no way he would get inspired by a retard movie like MoS

Goku met Superman once on his was to fight the Red Ribbon.

He was super weak.

Superman is the better character in all facets.

LOL

I have never watched DB/DBZ, but I probably should. How do you guys go about watching the anime? Are the blu-rays nice? Should I read the manga first or are they virtually the same thing?

As far as I care, Goku being a saiyan never happened. Dragon Ball went bad when Goku was revealed to be an alien.

Goku is basically one of the many facets of superman.
I'm pretty sure he means Byrne's Man of Steel run.

I watched the english version as a kid, which isn't bad but completely off tone to the niponese version.

I recently rewatched it all in the original language. It's a 30 year old story and all goes together as one piece, even if dragon ball is whackier than z and super it's still the same story of Goku and friends.

It varies in quality throughout but I wouldn't recommend skipping through a continuous story.

Dc, Toriyama...Who's dick do I have to suck, or who's vagina do I have to lick for this to happen and become a official thing?

the one who kiss the girl.

Nah, Toriyama did that story like one month after the movie. Dragon Ball Minus was his spin on burdock, the tv special was never his.

who the fuck knows him from z plebs thats who
>inb4 >>reddit

>marathoning the first Dragonball series. Goku being a pure kid doing pure things. Fun.
>at the end of the series he does something disconcerting and gambles the entire planet so he can have a real one-on-one fight with Piccolo.
>throughout all the shows merely treats his family like any stranger he's ever been a good Samaritan to.
Goku's schtick gets old and as its been widely known Toriyama knew this and wanted to either end the series or make it Gohan-focused at some point. I just plain like Superman more because he has empathy.

Superman is objectively the better hero.

Every single major arc of DBZ shows that Goku's primary motivation is to get stronger, find stronger opponents to fight, and help those close to him get stronger, with protecting his friends and family (and the world) being a close second.

Vegeta comes to his planet, has his lackey kill tons of innocents and some of Goku's friends, kills his lackey for fucking up once, and then attempts to kill him and his family and his remaining friends in order to enslave the Earth. Goku lets him live so they can fight again.

Frieza, who is Vegeta's boss, is a Multi-Galaxy level tyrant who murders innocents on a whim with a giggle and ransacks an utterly peaceful planet for its resources. Frieza murders Vegeta and Krillin and puts Piccolo into critical condition after having his goons beat the shit out of his family and friends. Goku, even pushed to Super Saiyan in rage, gives Frieza another chance, solely because he has faith that he can rehabilitate because he hopes they can fight again. Only when he is immediately betrayed does he kill Frieza.

Goku could've beaten Cell in the opening round of the Cell Games, ending the threat of the Earth being destroyed or anybody else being killed. Goku ends his fight early AND heals Cell so his son, who DOESN'T LIKE FIGHTING, can be the one to beat him. The disconnect between what Goku wants for his son and what Gohan actually wants is one of the most interesting things about DBZ.

In the Buu Saga, Goku on Earth as an angel/spirit was able to use Super Saiyan 3, which doesn't sap his energy the same it does when he uses it while alive, against Fat Buu, the weakest version they fought in that saga. He, again, doesn't finish Buu off so that Gotenks can finish the job. Buu goes on to commit PLANET-WIDE GENOCIDE.

To be fair, the whole Kid Buu thing happening isn't actually on Goku, that's on Vegeta for destroying the Potara earring even though Vegetto could easily destroy if given a second shot.

Is THE FIRST TIME, I say this... GOKU..

Thanks, Rebirth for change my previous opinion..

Gohan wishes he had a Dad around as much as Clark

Let me guess. Muh New 52 Superbro.

>probably should
nigga you're looking at 500+ episodes to catch up to where super is at

According to Dragon Ball Super, Goku doesn't even kiss Chi-Chi, so I'm guessing he's not much of a lover.

I'm going to say Goku is better for a simple reason:

Consistency.

Goku has appeared in 42 (plus however many of Super there is) volumes of comics, a handful of movies, and four TV series in the 30ish years since his creation.

Superman has appeared in... fffuck I don't even wanna think about it. Those numbers strike me as a huge drag to calculate.

Anyway the point is Superman shows up a lot more, period, than Goku. More comics, probably more movies? More TV shows, etc, etc. Generally with completely different creative staffs. With wildly different interpretations between versions.

You watch something with Superman in it, you don't know if you're gonna get the good natured boyscout, the nice omnipotent Dad, the beefy blue eyed heart throb, or a sulky, sullen guy who wishes he was cool like Silver Surfer.

With Goku, you're always going to get a stupid idiot who likes to fight and eat. Some people might see that as a lack of depth in comparison, but there's a point with fictional characters where depth is less like depth and more like schizophrenia

Goku easily. Superman is beyond boring.

Confirmed for normie with shittaste

>Goku could've beaten Cell in the opening round of the Cell Games
He never had a chance of killing Cell. Cell was sandbagging even harder than Goku was and would have arguably killed Gohan if he hadn't messed around.

>against Fat Buu, the weakest version they fought in that saga
Fat Buu isn't far from Kid at all in terms of power, and should surpass him when angry.

>He, again, doesn't finish Buu
Because he couldn't. He barely understood the form, its limitations nor his opponent, and Buu wasn't breaking a sweat. Goku wasn't a serious threat to any of the Buus save as Vegetto.

>To be fair, the whole Kid Buu thing happening isn't actually on Goku
If Vegeta hadn't created Kid they'd been stuck fighting Super who'd obliterate them both, Spirit Bomb or not. That said, the entire final fight was retarded.

>Fat Buu isn't far from Kid at all in terms of power, and should surpass him when angry.
Kid Buu beat the shit out of Fat Buu.

>Goku's schtick gets old and as its been widely known Toriyama knew this and wanted to either end the series or make it Gohan-focused at some point. I just plain like Superman more because he has empathy.

Gohan being a superhero with a CAPE isnt even subtle.

MAN OF MURDER would do this
Superman wouldn't. Clark and Goku wouldn't even fight unless there was a badly written reason to, like in all crossovers.

Also Vegeta is objectively a better written character than Goku.

He's really not. He's a dumbass that never learned from his mistakes in Z, and in Super he's just slightly above background character.

The only reason I can think of is that they'd be sparring buddies.

Vegeta fucking sucks and he's just a pity party loser. He's very easy to project onto because he basically wanders into the story midway and questions the nature of it and wants to change it(why does Goku always win!? Why is he so strong? Why aren't I, someone more predisposed to be better, ending up more succesful). Because truth is, Vegeta is so set in his ways he dons't understand that Goku is much smarter than he is. Its telling hat their approaches to training are. Goku was all about becoming more comfortable with his bodies and acclimating to it; spending days as a Super Saiyan? Brilliant strategy. Vegeta was all about self abuse. Higher gravity, more years in the Time chamber, all just time sinks. The brilliance of Goku's character is that people see his cleverness as just dumb luck or circumstance; Vegeta's character works because he, like a reader, thinks of it as dumb luck.

>Kid Buu beat the shit out of Fat Buu.
Kid Buu beat the shit out of Mr Buu, who is weaker than Fat Buu.

>He's a dumbass that never learned from his mistakes
He became more 'human' over time as Goku regressed into a bigger sociopath, married the series main girl, sired a son who saved the future and present, and came up with the plan to beat Buu.

>he dons't understand that Goku is much smarter than he is
Must be why Goku has never beaten Vegeta in combat and spends the majority of his life weaker than Vegeta form-for-form.

>Goku was all about becoming more comfortable with his bodies and acclimating to it
Goku was all about abandoning his family to train in super efficient circumstances and still barely edge out Vegeta (if that).

Superman has a weakness. Goku doesn't. Pretty obvious who's going to win.

As Z went on, Vegeta kept repeating the same mistakes that kept getting worse
>Goads Frieza into transforming
>Let's Cell absorb 18
>Gives Buu the energy he needs to get out of the scrotum prison
Also, Vegeta didnt raise Future Trunks. He raised present Trunks, who is unbearably annoying.
Plus, Goku's plan would have worked a lot better.
>Use the Spirit Bomb
Vs
>Teleport to earth, grab Gohan and Gotenks, and gang up on Buu

Vegeta's still a coward who jumped at the chance to sell his individuality at the chance of getting stronger.

>Must be why Goku has never beaten Vegeta in combat and spends the majority of his life weaker than Vegeta form-for-form.

Because he wasn't going off picking fights at random. The only time Goku and Vegeta where truly neck and neck after the saiyan sage was Cell saga, and now Super. Frieza saga; he would've destroyed him. Before super was wedged in, he had all of the Buu saga and end of Z where he was far stronger than him.

>Goku was all about abandoning his family to train in super efficient circumstances and still barely edge out Vegeta (if that).

He spend a little over 3 years pampering Gohan, then when he came back and the after the Frieza saga ended, he spent another 3 training with him. He spend 7 years dead, but only after leaving Gohan as able to fend for himself(and much older than he was when Grampa Gohan died), and with no idea he had another kid on the way. then finally he spends 10 whole years with his family, where in he sees Gohan grow up and have his own family, and Goten just about college aged. Yeah he goes halfway across the world, but remember, the first time we see Pan, what's she doing? flying around the world. The only family member he'd miss out on is Chichi, and she probably needs the space.

Vegeta didn't hug his son for seven years.

>Superman has a weakness.
So does Goku. It's called 'not being a hundredth as fast, strong, or durable as Supes'.

>As Z went on, Vegeta kept repeating the same mistakes that kept getting worse
And Goku made increasingly stupid mistakes like sparing Frieza and botching actually killing him, relying on children to kill regenerating monsters, and not teaching his sons his techniques.

>Gives Buu the energy he needs to get out of the scrotum prison
Which only worked because Goku didn't IT away immediately or go SS3.

>Also, Vegeta didnt raise Future Trunks.
And that makes Vegeta not his father?

>He raised present Trunks
As a present, caring father. More than Goku could say.

>Plus, Goku's plan would have worked a lot better.
Goku would have never thought to use the Namekian DB's in the first place, and they both went with Spirit Bomb to give earthlings something to do, not because it was the best option. These being the geniuses that crushed two pairs of potara.

The one that doesn't need 50 poorly written alternate reality versions to prove he's strongest.

If they teamed up against Popeye, who would win?

Superman isn't even on second form Freeza's level. Goku no contest.

If Popeye has spinach, they lose.

So Goku?

Neither is the most interesting character in their own universe. And yes that honor goes to the assholes Virginia and Baldie.

*Chinese legend

1: Goku never lost control of situations so badly that it threatened the entire universe. Vegeta is soley responsible for Cell reaching his final form and for Buu waking up.
2: If you're gonna judge them by how their kids do, Teen Gohan wins. He killed Super Perfect Cell. Also, Vegeta didnt hold Trunks until he killed himself in a futile effort to stop Buu.
Goku's idea to go grab more fighters would have worked better than the spirit bomb, which nearly failed twice.

Wasn't that Toriyama's intention though?
Like he wanted Goku to be the kind of protagonist who's not completely heroic?

>Vegeta's still a coward
Vegeta wasn't the one too scared to fight Super Buu.

>who jumped at the chance to sell his individuality
Which he retained.

>Because he wasn't going off picking fights at random.
Which has what to do with Goku's perfect losing record against Vegeta.

>The only time Goku and Vegeta where truly neck and neck after the saiyan sage was Cell saga
You mean when Vegeta would have clobbered his ass?

>Frieza saga; he would've destroyed him
And for his whole life up to that point Vegeta would have obliterated him, and he didn't even need the crutch of Super Kami Water.

>he had all of the Buu saga and end of Z where he was far stronger than him.
When Vegeta is clearly stronger form-for-form from the moment he gets the Majin stamp? Or are you implying SS3 means anything?

>He spend a little over 3 years pampering Gohan
As an infant. Then he died. Then he abandoned his ass despite being able to visit whenever he wanted via IT.

>He spend 7 years dead
Which was completely preventable.

>but only after leaving Gohan as able to fend for himself
And his mother and unborn brother as an 11 year old. Father of the year material.

>with no idea he had another kid on the way
Then he shouldn't have fucked his wife on the offchance he'd die, shouldn't he?

>then finally he spends 10 whole years with his family
Mostly training before abandoning them for good to run off with a little brown boy.

>Vegeta didn't hug his son for seven years.
He also never willingly put him (nor Goten) in life threatening situations, and heal the monster torturing them. He ended up the better husband, father, and friend.

Goku's weakness is his later transformations put a strain on him, he's naive in a childish sort of way, and has a hard on fighting to the fullest

>And Goku made increasingly stupid mistakes like sparing Frieza and botching actually killing him

>relying on children to kill regenerating monsters

It worked out in the end.

> and not teaching his sons his techniques.
That's really a problem in general with Dragon Ball. No one teaches anyone else their techniques, no matter how necessary.

>As a present, caring father. More than Goku could say.

A lot of Toriyama's storytelling techniques tend to rely on knowing the characters and expecting what will happen rather than actually seeing it. Think of how many times Yamcha and Bulma broke up and got back together. Its never shown, but you know Bulma is controlling and jealous, and Yamcha likes to wander. Similarly, We're told Goku spoiled gohan for years, but we don't need to see it because we know that Goku's a good guy; and Gohan's anxiety at losing him shows that. Besides, Goku always made sure to check up on Gohan first thing every time he was in danger. Him checking up on him with a broken neck and comforting him after recoome snaps it comes to mind. Ultimately goku's still a feral kid so his standards of parenting are different, but he is loving.

Toriyama writes Superman and Grant Morrison writes Dragon Ball
What happens?

Come up with a more autism attracting who would win debate so that "Goku vs Superman" can finally die.
Hard Mode: No Popeye, no Saitama

Superman. Simply because he has to work harder.

Goku doesn't have to deal with most of the shit Superman does. It's one thing to fight bad guys who want to destroy the world, it's another when your world has people who will just poison people against you.

How powerful is the current Superman?
No composites, just strictly the one we have now.

Popeye, duh.

>Superman isn't even on second form Freeza's level.
Second form Frieza can't outrace photons. No one in DB can. For Supes, that's Tuesday.

>Goku never lost control of situations so badly that it threatened the entire universe.
Like when he intentionally spared Buu and hesitated from fusing with Gohan against Super?

>Vegeta is soley responsible for Cell reaching his final form
The final form that required the androids Goku refused to kill out of a desire to fight strong guys?

>for Buu waking up.
Like how Goku hung around to fight Vegeta instead of going SS3?

>Teen Gohan wins.
Teen Gohan would have never amounted to anything without Trunks warning them of the upcoming threat.

>He killed Super Perfect Cell.
Thanks to Vegeta.

>Also, Vegeta didnt hold Trunks until he killed himself in a futile effort to stop Buu.
Whom Goku was willing to give as a sacrificial offering.

>Goku's idea
It wasn't his idea, it had already occurred to Vegeta, and Goku went along with it.

>It worked out in the end.
Like when the second regenerating monster killed all their children and Vegeta had to save the day both times?

>No one teaches anyone else their techniques
Goku had others teach him techniques and never bothered to pass them along.

>A lot of Toriyama's storytelling techniques tend to rely on knowing the characters and expecting what will happen rather than actually seeing it.
So if they do something stupid and selfish, we should assume they didn't do something stupid and selfish, because AT is a hack writer. Ok.

>Similarly, We're told Goku spoiled gohan for years
Which we know is a crock of shit because he spends most of Gohan's formative years absent.

>we know that Goku's a good guy
He's a brain damaged hick that sees his family as battle companions and nothing more.

>Besides, Goku always made sure to check up on Gohan first thing every time he was in danger.
Because he didn't want to miss a good fight.

Those are shortcomings. You don't hold up naiveté to Goku and he suddenly loses all his powers.

Magic, sun, try anything that's not a universe-shattering blow and he just won't give a shit.

Goku, because he's not a boring mary sue without flaws who actually has to work for his powers instead of having them simply given to him like Superfag.

Except that one time.

Though arguably training his ass off would've been less deadly.

Does Superman like to spar?

Superman
>actual character with personality and development
Goku
>idiot that loves fighting

It's a stupid fucking comparison. Gohan v Superman would be a bit better comparison since Gohan had an actual personality until Toriyama fucked everything up by having Goku come back

1: He was stalling Buu until Trunks could find the Dragon Radar. That's different from what you think it is. Gohan dropping the earring wasn't Goku's fault at all.
2: Nobody was stopping Vegeta from going out and killing them. He did fight with Trunks so that Cell could absorb 18.
3: Still Vegeta's fault.
4: See, you're saying Vegeta wins at being a dad because of Future Trunks. Vegeta didnt raise him, though. So you changed it to "Vegeta is still his biological father, so that makes him better." If you wanna compare what came out of their loins, Gohan wins with Teen Gohan, Mystic Gohan, and the badass that was Future Gohan. Also, Goku's dad is a lot cooler than Vegeta's dad.
4: I really don't know what you're trying to say there. If anything, Goku did more to help Trunks than Vegeta in the beginning of the Buu Saga.
5: After Vegeta came up with resurrecting everyone on earth, Goku suggested they go get Gohan and Gotenks, which would have worked out much better than the Spirit Bomb that nearly failed a third time.
Also, I just wanna say I'm sorry if listing off your points by numerical order rather than highlighting them pisses you off in anyway. I just don't feel like highlighting all your shit.

His whole personality was not wanting to fight. He's one of 500 deforming mirrors of Goku in DB(Z).

We don't actually know if he'd win. The highest we've seen his destructive power is only at about Saiyan saga DBZ and he was holding back but still no real idea.

No energy attacks, no flight, he's strong, fast, and very durable, but that's about it.

I like both

The manga of super isn't actually canon. And vegeta hadn't gone SSB yet either.

>good natured boyscout, the nice omnipotent Dad, the beefy blue eyed heart throb, or a sulky, sullen guy
>implying he isn't all of them
Those aren't inconsistencies, they're different aspects of his character. None of the things you said contradict eachother, so there's no reason they couldn't coexist. Different stories focus on different elements of Superman's persona.

Weaker than new 52. New 52 was weaker than post crisis supes. To put it into perspective, this supes was finding the heat at the earths core too much

And to make that clear let's have a non-exhaustive semi-chronological list
>Yamcha
>Krilin
>Tien
>Gohan (his kid, not his grandad)
>Radditz
>Vegeta
>Bardock
>Goten
>non-canons like Turles, Broly or Polkwan
>arguably even Piccolo, Frieza, Cell and Mr. Satan reflect some of Goku's traits
I'm probably forgetting some in DB because I haven't reread it since I was a kid.

He is but I'm pretty sure it's partly accidental.

>good at his job/smart=well written
No.
>in Super he's just slightly above background character.
Hahaha, no.

His personality was initially that he didn't want to fight at all because he was a fucking cry baby. Then he gradually learned that he had to get stronger and fight.

He was an infinitely more interesting protagonist than Goku ever was. It was a huge fucking mistake by Toriyama to bring Goku back and shove Gohan off. If he really wanted to continue the story after Cell then Gohan should've been the protagonist.

Instead, we're forever fucking stuck with boring Goku and Vegeta and their now ever changing hair colour.

Isn't Post Crisis Superman the same as the one now?

>Because its fucking obvious who the better character is.
Yeah, Goku.

Muh depth doesn't automatically make something better.

It is, but Cred Forumsfags don't care about that so they'll ignore it.

#BeatupSonGoku

>Then he gradually learned that he had to get stronger and fight.
Begrudgingly, and he mostly went back to crybaby every time Chichi got his hands on him for extended periods of time.
>He was an infinitely more interesting protagonist than Goku ever was.
I'd say "marginally" rather than "infinitely". There's not really much to do once he gets over his crybaby ways except "he's Goku now" like Future Trunks' Gohan.
But the general crybaby-to-badass arc was alright, especially his relationships with Krilin and Piccolo.
> It was a huge fucking mistake by Toriyama to bring Goku back and shove Gohan off.
That I sort of agree with, although I'm also happy for Gohan he gets to live a life he wants and not just be his dad's heir.

TFS made him more interesting too, since he is actually smart there, and not just a bookworm.

Vegeta is more interesting than either, imo, but not fit to be a protag.
I don't think Gohan being the protag would have saved Super, or Buu saga for that matter.

>Also what's with all this Cred Forums theads in Cred Forums?
Just to make you act like a salty manchild, and it worked.

>Cred Forumsfags don't care about that
More like some Cred Forumsfags think being a good person makes one a good character.

Yeah it is. I guess his power level took a hit when he came to this universe

Goku is a good person, though. He's just naive.

The problem with Cred Forums is that you only pay attention to Goku's depth when it's convenient, (h-he's a bad hero! he does things wrong!) and only pays attention to his simplicity when it's convenient, (he just eats food and fights! he's so boring!)

Meanwhile Superman is always either a simple badass goodguy who's totally not boring, or a super deep and complicated protagonist and totally not overblown or pretentious.
It doesn't matter though because we all know Hercule is the strongest.

Goku took Superman's powers and his origin story and made them much better for action. Superman's fights are one-sided so most of his stories are based on political shit instead of prolonged and intense fights. Boring.

>Kid Buu beat the shit out of Fat Buu.

This shit gets confusing but that wasn't Fat Buu that Kid Buu rekt.

Fat Buu (the one who fought SSJ3 Goku) = Evil Buu (the gray skinny one) + Good Buu (who looks just like Fat Buu)

Kid Buu was wailing on Good Buu at that point, who was much weaker than Fat Buu. It was essentially the Evil vs Good Buu fight redeux.

I was saying that being a good person/hero *doesn't* make you a good character, but way to miss the point.

>The manga of super isn't actually canon

That wole Buu shit was so damn lame.
>look a comedy villain!
>just kidding he's actually a chaotic evil little shit with literal red eyes!

I'm glad someone in here knows a light show and camera tricks when they see one.

MFW CCS can beat Son Goku

>I was saying that being a good person/hero *doesn't* make you a good character
I'm so used to everyone on this board being defensive that I thought you were implying Goku isn't a good person. My bad.

>but way to miss the point.
How? I misread your post, but my point still stands.

Being a good person doesn't automatically make you a good character, but that doesn't mean a character can't be both.

Goku and Superman are both good people, but Goku has a lot more flaws than Superman, and it makes him interesting, yet Cred Forums only cares about those flaws when they're used negatively to paint Supes in a better light.

Then when talking about the characters' depths, those flaws and interesting quirks to Goku's personality are forgotten and he's reduced to memes to make Superman seem more interesting.

I may have gone off on a tangent misinterpreting your remark, but nothing I said was wrong. In fact you could more or less see everything after the first two sentences I posted as simple rambling about this board in general, not your post specifically.

Nigga Kidd Buu was still comedic as fuck.
He pounded his chest and made monkey sounds even after getting Goku's knee shoved in his face, and even after Goku went SSJ3 they were fucking around and doing dumbshit like biting each-other.

The Buu Saga went full circle while still escalating the threat, and on top of that the fight with Kid Buu was choreographed more like a Dragon Ball fight with funky moves and emphasis on actual movements and reactions instead of high-speed clashing.

Goku's character is so much more believable.

You missed *my* point is what I meant. No biggy.

I'm honestly not into "which is better" type of stuff, as you point out it often leads to hipocrisy or at least very biased POVs, I just used this thread as an excuse to talk about DBZ.

>So does Goku. It's called 'not being a hundredth as fast, strong, or durable as Supes'.

Goku and Vegeta will eventually surpass Beerus and Whis, and those guys can snuff out universes. Superman has at his best destroyed planets.

I guess so, he just didn't have much of a personality.

The important thing is that, as we all know, Cell is best villain.

Freezypop is cool too, I guess

Hey look I can do that too!
Superman
>guy that beats everyone easily
Goku
>actual character with personality and development

I'm literally no less correct than you.

>Superman has at his best destroyed planets.
Nigga come on, the guy has destroyed galaxies with a sneeze and punched out reality.

Sneezed out a solar system, not a galaxy. And he just punched a wall. It's not like he just randomly punched in the air somewhere and destroyed reality.

I prefer Frieza. Cell's "I've got everybody's powers" shtick is lame imo.
I'm looking at you Amazo.

But as I've learned it often depends which you saw first. I'm guessing you saw the Cell saga first, correct?

>Goku
>>actual character with personality and development

That an objective lie though.

Either way pretending he's only planetbuster level is silly.

>I don't think Gohan being the protag would have saved Super, or Buu saga for that matter
Literally nothing could save the piece of shit that is Super. But I do think Gohan would've been a better protag for Buu if the saga itself was also done differently.

Something like Goku coming back as a spirit (temporarily) to try and help fight/warn Gohan about Buu. Gohan goes against Goku because he can see there's good in Buu and doesn't think everything can be solved by fighting like his father. Everyone around Gohan tells him he's wrong and the only way is to kill Buu but he refuses, eve after defeating Kid Buu he won't kill him. Somehow manages to turn him back into fat good Buu. Proving that he's not only stronger than his father but also a better person.

Something like that that would've set him further apart from Goku.

>Vegeta is more interesting than either
I agree he's more interesting than Goku, but even he was really only interesting in his initial transformation from villian to hero. He was never really allowed to completely change since that would've taken away his 'bad ass' thing which is what everyone loves him for.

Goku is selfish, dumb, immature, lazy to a point and self centered.

He had personality, it just wasn't as blunt or pronounced as the average character, since he didn't speak.

You could still get a sense for how childish and animalistic he was, almost like a perfect villainous reflection of past Goku with his love for fighting, taking serious battles lightly, monkey-like behavior, (though as much as I love AT I might be giving him too much credit, I'm sure that stuff wasn't supposed to have any Goku-related meaning,) but he definitely didn't have as much personality as the absorbed Buus.

Though that in and of itself made him interesting, because it really gave you a sense of just how much of the Buus' personalities only existed because of how many people they absorbed, as well as the effects each character had on his personality.

I especially loved Super Buu's cries of "I won't be me anymore!" when Goku and Vegeta are removing the characters he absorbed. I didn't appreciate that as much when I was younger, but he literally lost his personality and sense of self as he lost absorbed people.

He has personality.
Development, some, but really not much.

>regular good guy just wants to use powers to help people
>idiot guy will literally put entire planet in danger because he loves fighting
so much more believable.

What are the chances of him getting back his old feats?

Superman gives me hope, Goku gives me determination.

Fans tend to think that (Superman's flight speed = Fighting/punching speed) when it's simply not the case.
For Superman to successfully use the Infinite Mass Punch, he needs to be exactly UNDER LIGHT SPEED! Superman's Infinite Mass Punch can destroy a single planet. However, this feat knocked Superman out cold!

Even worse, fans use the Anime as their source to determine Goku's abilities.
The manga portrays DB/DBZ fights differently.
The reader/viewer (yourself) can see every major fights. Goku has fought opponents above the speed of light. Even some of the Z-Fighters have a hard time keeping track of Goku and his opponent (Goku vs Piccolo, Goku vs Cell)

If Superman fought above the speed of light, his mass would be non-existent meaning his punches wouldn't do shit!

Goku wouldn't have the same problem. Why? While his mass would be reduced like Superman's, all of Goku's strength and Punches divert from his Ki.

>Superman
>guy that beats everyone easily
read a comic
>Goku
>actual character with personality and development
But that's literally not true.

Depends on the version of Superman.

Because seriously what version of Superman are we talking about here as being better than Goku?

Current Superman definitely can't destroy the Sun.

>Goku's character is so much more believable.
>more believable.

Main Superman
>Post SilverAge

Doesn't it make sense for a member of a warrior race to be an idiot who loves fighting. And it fits with his powers. It does NOT make sense for someone like Superman to be a goody two shoes whose only flaw is that he sometimes cares too much.

Goku is able to inflict damage above Light Speed because of his ability to use Ki.

>Implying Asura would wreck both their shit

Prove me wrong, user-kun.

He has more development than people remember.

He went from being a monkey boy in the mountains to a dumb kid with a love for fighting and desire to improve, (who was actually pretty merciless towards anyone who hurt him or his friends,) to a young man with an actual sense of justice and desire to befriend his opponents instead of killing them, like he did with Piccolo and Vegeta, and tried with Frieza. (In fact the look on Goku's face when he realizes there was just no way to end the fight with Frieza without killing him is pretty tragic.)

There's also the way he matures from the big hero of Dragon Ball into a concerned guardian who wants to instill strength and values in the next generation because he knows he won't be able to protect Earth forever.

It's not the greatest development, especially when AT undid the last bit by having Goku return for the Buu Saga, but it's there, and it was done fairly well.

>It does NOT make sense for someone like Superman to be a goody two shoes whose only flaw is that he sometimes cares too much.

It's true. Look at Red Son or Injustice. That's the shit they always play up for Superman.

>read a comic
The most notable thing about Superman and the reason there are so many Supes vs. Goku discussions to begin with is because he is one of the most unbeatable OP heroes in fiction, and the majority of his fights are one sided.

>But that's literally not true.
Read Dragon Ball.

>But I do think Gohan would've been a better protag for Buu if the saga itself was also done differently.
Well I mean yeah but if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. The lazy writing would still be there.

>Gohan goes against Goku because he can see there's good in Buu and doesn't think everything can be solved by fighting like his father. Everyone around Gohan tells him he's wrong and the only way is to kill Buu but he refuses, eve after defeating Kid Buu he won't kill him. Somehow manages to turn him back into fat good Buu. Proving that he's not only stronger than his father but also a better person.
>Something like that that would've set him further apart from Goku.
Wut?
Forgiving ennemies and finding way to make them allies and see the good in them against all odds is Goku's schtick (Yamcha, Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta, he even tried with Frieza). So now Gohan is at Goku's level before Z, good for him.

>He was never really allowed to completely change since that would've taken away his 'bad ass' thing which is what everyone loves him for.
But he did in the Beerus saga. And in fact, post being Majin Veggie. Now he's just a pissy asshole who pretends to be badass and I still love him, because that's why I loved him anyway. Hell he's one of the only good parts of Super.
He's one of very few redemption arcs done right, because it took so damn long to make him realize and admit he was in the wrong, to finally making a heroic sacrifice and embracing being an Earthling.

There's literally a scene where Kid Buu bites Goku and then Goku bites him back. It's a combination of high stakes and sillyness that made Buu saga so fin.

>It does NOT make sense for someone like Superman to be a goody two shoes whose only flaw is that he sometimes cares too much.
Please actually read a fucking Supes comic before you make more of a fool of yourself.

>In fact the look on Goku's face when he realizes there was just no way to end the fight with Frieza without killing him is pretty tragic
I guess I should've thought to post it for the sake of reference.

>childish and animalistic
That's not much of a personality.

> almost like a perfect villainous reflection of past Goku with his love for fighting, taking serious battles lightly, monkey-like behavior
Good point.

>(though as much as I love AT I might be giving him too much credit, I'm sure that stuff wasn't supposed to have any Goku-related meaning,)
idk, as I pointed out earlier deformed reflections of Goku are a big theme in DB(Z).

I should probably read the Buu saga, I only watched it as a kid and even then I stopped a little before the end because I got bored with it.

>2016
>still having Superman vs Japanese Superman threads
Saitama incoming 3, 2, 1...

>That's not much of a personality.
How? You don't get to decide what a personality is or isn't. You can argue all day and night over whether it's a good one or not, but a personality is a personality, and if he didn't have one there wouldn't be words to describe it with.

That was retconned to Goku lowering his power right before getting shot IIRC.
I don't watch Super

I'm pretty sure that's not how infinite masss punch works (sadly). It's over light speed, hence "infinite" and not "tending towards infinite punch".
It's a punch in the face of physics and one of the main reasons the Flash annoys me.

Goku could take bullets unphased as a child. That beam obviously packed a punch, and let's not pretend supes hasn't taken damage from beams and magic and shit.

Just because the beam seemed puny in the context of DBZ doesn't mean shit, especially in movies/Super.

youtube.com/watch?v=C6liGqolaa8

>Beerus saga
Anyone that thinks anything good came out of Super's opinion is automatically disregarded.

Don't forget the poison dart.

Because ho LOWERED HIS FUCKING GUARD!

...

*he*

I have a better anime vs cartoon/comic match up.

Himura Kenshin vs Samurai Jack.

The different portrayals always completely discard everything that came previous. He's right; it's not depth. It's a randomly cobbled together schizophrenic collection of constant rewrites.

There are countless versions of superman. To the point you can't even have a discussion on which one if the true version anymore.

There is only one Goku.

...

Jack has no means of actually hurting Ken.

Because those are very simplistic traits that you could attribute to a literal animal.

LOL? Doesn't Jack know how to use more weapons can Kenshin?

If you get grumpy about violations of physics, maybe superheroes in general aren't for you. Just friendly advice.

Given the train was going to derail when it hit the tied up tracks, they were dead anyway. Might as well save Olive.

Oh so you were just baiting, good to know.

I like both of them actually.

You don't think animals can have different personalities?

Didn't they kiss when he recovered from his illness? Was it filler episode?

Superman's "Infinite" Mass Punch works like that. They even described it in the comics.

No shit, I remember a youtube video where a gorilla cries from watching a sad movie.

It's good for Vegeta's charcter arc being completed, which is what we were discussing.

Your whole fucking post about why Gohan isn't like Goku because he spares ennemies outed you as a retard already, don't try to save face with this bullshit no true Sayian.

Neither.

I can get by some guy having unexplained supergoo or whatever, I can't get by a comic that tries to use hard science to justify something dumb and does it wrong.

Sun Wukong.

IMO Goku but they both have different merits.

Superman is not just a man. He's a symbol. He feels that he was born with a massive amount of strength for a purpose. That purpose is to help other people and prevent attrocities. He takes personal responsibility to help others and any betterment of himself if to protect those he cares about.

Goku on the other hand is the opposite. While Goku has always been naturally gifted he was very quickly daunted. He wasn't unstoppable, just powerful. His goal is to become stronger. Not because he worries for others or because he needs to protect people. But for his own desire to better himself. He's a good person but he's rarely thinking of the fate of the world first and foremost. His desire to fight stronger opponents and his desire to help his friends happen to coincide.

Superman is an all powerful being who wants to better himself for the good of humanity.

Goku is a vulnerable man who wants to better himself for the sake of getting stronger.

and I happen to find that more endearing of a character than Superman. Superman is an almost unobtainable amount of virtue. Goku is a man who is good by merit of being a good person, but his whole life doesn't revolve around being a good person. He has hopes and desires that just happen to coincide with his virtues.

You might want to look up what a person is.
A temper is not a personality.

>all this arguing over depth/simplicity
Did people forget that not everything needs to be deep or complicated to be good, characters included?

Goku's dumb, hungry and fun to watch fight. Not everyone needs more than that, especially not edgy existential shit. Us weebs had Eva for that, and it was terrible.

Oh my bad.
I was thinking of Morrison's JLA, where Flash's version is explained.

I'm fully convinced that the fight with Freeza simply broke Goku on a few important levels. It wasn't the most high level fight, but it was the most intense and deadly one. Goku completely hated Freeza with every blow, and Freeza was happy to return the feeling. Ultimately, Goku was even forced to violate his ideal of sparing his opponent's life. Freeza didn't just take his friend from him. He took his ideals.

Goku's behavior after the arc is subtly different. Far more sloppy in attitude and very laid back about how things can just be fixed regardless. Not to mention refusing to save the world MULTIPLE TIMES on the pretense of giving someone else a shot at saving it for once. That's not the kind of shit Goku would do before he fought Freeza.

Like he still cares about getting stronger, but some other part of him stopped giving a fuck.

So he's a metaphor for Toriyama?

Now you're just damage controlling.

Goku can move FASTER THAN TIME. tfw superman cucks are on suicide watch.

Well he let Vegeta go when they could have easily killed him so I say you're looking a little too deep into the story

Superman is a supportive father.
Goku was absent for most of Gohan's life.

I think Lois and Chi-Chi would get along well.

Ken isn't hurt by weapons.

>. Not to mention refusing to save the world MULTIPLE TIMES on the pretense of giving someone else a shot at saving it for once. That's not the kind of shit Goku would do before he fought Freeza.

Remember how Roshi wanted to sit out the last fight at the last tournament arc of Dragon ball, with Piccolo Jr.? And he never fought again, because he wanted the next egeneration to take over? That's a running theme in Dragon ball.

That's why I think a lot of people don't get the Uub ending. Its Goku finally becoming a master himself and taking on a pupil. As much as it seems fitting for one of his kids(or Pan) to be his successor, there's a difference between that and a pupil. Goku using his own gi, not the Turtle school one, further shows this. Its not apathy, its him wanting to let things move on. Goku wants someone to surpass him; because that knowledge of knowing someone out there is bettr than him feeds into his own thirst. In a way, Roshi remains Goku's most important teacher, since he literally beat that into him when Jackie Chun won his first tournament.

Whatever dude, Kid Buu and your dog have a deep and complex personalities, you win.

There are also different versions and interpretations of Robin Hood, King Arthur, Moses, Hamlet, Falstaff, etc. Great characters can be played different ways across a range. Just look at how many interpretations of Hamlet there are.

The fact you consider this somehow a bad thing is worrisome to say the least.

>Superman so OP

He gets his ass kicked quite a bit, even when he's written as high level. Even Silver Age Superman had a string of getting punked.

>Faster than time

Time is nothing to Superman. The guy broke the time barrier more times in the Silver Age than he used his heat vision. He would time travel just to move out of the way of things.

>That's why I think a lot of people don't get the Uub ending. Its Goku finally becoming a master himself and taking on a pupil.
Man GT would've actually been decent if Uub became the new protagonist with Trunks and Pan and Goku instead took on a Roshi/King Kai role advising them remotely or something, maybe having one moment where he gets to step in and have his badass old martial arts master moment like Roshi did back in Dragon Ball a few times.

Goku could out-eat Superman, even if superman squished the food into incredibly dense diamond hard bits on the roof of his mouth.

After a certain point in Dragon Ball, young goku was taught the value of life. Since that point he tried to spare all enemies. Even the really horrible ones. The exceptions are when the defeating blow also becomes the deathblow because the fight was just that close. Goku killed King Piccolo but later spared Piccolo Junior. He tried to spare Radditz. Rather than killing Nappa for what he did, he crippled him to take the fight out of him and told Vegeta to get him medical attention.

Even before he was taught morality, a lot of him killing as a kid could be chalked up as unintentional. Simply not knowing better or not knowing what certain people can survive. Sometimes both.

Goku is selfish, but he's not a killer. Though I understand in modern society selfishness and murder are considered equally as heinous, I'm not a fan of the belief myself.

He's never really had anyone he could spar with, although when a Kryptonian city was founded on Mars or the Moon, I forget, he became a military leader and helped train the troops and seemed to enjoy it.

Strawmanning now, user? Come on.

Now we're talking about the real issues.

>Goku was absent for most of Gohan's life.

It only appears that way because we focus mostly on the parts he's absent in story. There's a lot of time skips where he's around. Lets call it even between the year he spent dead and the year he spent with Gohan in the Hyperbolic time chamber. There's a year he spent in space or so, and seven he spent dead long term. but otherwise; 3 or 4 years raising Gohan, 3 years when he was back from Namek/Yardrat, and 10 after Buu saga. Not that bad.

>Superman is a supportive father.
Depends which version.

I don't consider it bad in and of itself.

But comic book fans refuse, almost without exception, to admit these are not the same being in every portrayal. A different interpretation of the same character is still a seperate instance, but comic book fans will always sweep even WILDLY DIFFERENT WHAT IF portrayals in to the same basket for the sake of convenience to their argument.

>not even his son
Ok, user.

You've done the same. I say he doesn't have much of a personality and you turned it into me saying "it's literally not a personality".

>technicalities
Sounds like a true hero to me.

Well that's just silly. Grant Morrison Superman is not Joe Casey Superman is not Alan Moore Superman, not in powers nor in characteristics.

Goku would beat the majority of "Supermen". But the high end guys would absolutely wreck his shit. And that's not even getting into the actual god-mode Supermen like Superman Prime, All-Star Superman, Strange Visitor Superman, Sword of Superman Superman, etc.

>Imblying Superman cannot eat unlimited burgers like any good American.

whatever you say, user. maybe Goku would handle having a clone of him better than Superman, oh, wait...

Is Black the only good thing that came out of Super?

Nu52 Superman is canonically stronger than All-Star overcharged Superman.

This weight is magnitudes greater than the weight he's shown supporting in All-Star.

>in modern society selfishness and murder are considered equally as heinous

I agree with everything in your post, friend.

It just annoys me. Even when it isn't stupid versus discussions, it makes discussing Superman IMPOSSIBLE when the other party refuses to admit that a different portrayal counts as a separate instance. Not being able to hold a discussion over a character with THIS MUCH HISTORY behind him because talking about one instance becomes talking about every instance? That's fucking criminal.

I usually avoid any discussion even vaguely involving Superman for that reason, but over time that just turns in to vaguely loathing him because I never talk about what I like about him anymore.

...

You mean Cell?
Just proves Gero was more competent than Luthor.

I'm being facetious as a means of highlighting a point.

this

So, what's his fucking deal anyway?

If getting me to drop the show is good, then yes.

If he's suppose to be this strong how is anyone a challenge to him now?

Quintillion = 10 to the 18th power
Septillion = 10 to the 24th power

Ah, wasn't necessary for me, I agree with your points fine.

That would be Future Mai, actually

He wants to shoa on human race because MUH PERFECTION

Because comic books are mostly bullshit. Glorious bullshit, but bullshit nonetheless.

Do you want spoilers? Be warned.

It's yet another Zamasu from another alternate line. This one used the SDB to swap bodies with that world's Goku. Then joined up with the other alternate Zamasu. They both have the same ambition and are both Zamasu from alternate worlds. They just used different wishes to achieve their goals.

>Stronger
All Star's strength couldn't be measured. Read the scene again. "No upper-limit".

And he had an arsenal of vague new powers like that lightning stuff he used on the Bizarros.

The whole point of All-Star was that he was Silver Age Superman and pre-Superman Prime.

I know. Its so stupid. I blame the Death Battle craze.

>God Goku

This is what a high end tier Superman is to a god.

The old guy on the bed? That's Anu. The first god.

I long for Death Battle to do God Goku vs Strange Visitor Superman. Perhaps a list of those Superman feats will get people to shut the fuck up about Goku vs Superman.

Magic Reality Warpers and "My Own Evil Clone" and "Magic Rocks, lol no powers" have ALWAYS been Superman's core rogues gallery.

You might as well ask how anyone challenges the Flash.

Same way people challenge Goku.

Goku fights guys that punchfast and throw energy bolts. Superman fights guys with super powers.

This Superman in particular got his ass kicked by a guy named Wrath and a guy named Ulysses. Same powersets, they were just a little more.

Its really a retarded question user. How the fuck do you think they make guys to fight Superman?

Yeah, and he also let Frezza get to full power just to see if he could win.

He is not the kin of guy to take advantage of a instant win weakness.

Define "Better"

you mean, strength? as Character? or what?

dont do that, because I remember the Accelerator vs Flash threads

with an ice gun and shitty pranks apparently.

>Goku doesn't. Pretty obvious who's going to win.
If you don't count, lasers, rocks, angry Chichi, lack of oxygen, drowning in water, etc...

uh

I love villians who are incredibly frighteningly deadly that look weak because they are goofy or their aesthetic is goofy. Flash villains are good for that. Spiderman villains are also prime examples of people who would wipe the floor with most of the universe's roster.

Exactly.
Flash's "Own Evil Clone" type character.
How many Evil Flashes does he have in his Rogues Gallery now? 6? 8?

If you're going to watch Dragon Ball Z, go with DB Kai since it's the same series but with no filler, but it's still long. Watch the recent two movies and then watch the shitty kids show called Super. Or don't and just read the manga or watch the pre-Z era Dragon Ball which was all about adventure, comedy and kung fu.

>shitting on the rogues

You could drown or asphyxiate goku. Goku's still a person. All superman would have to do is hold him underwater or chuck his ass into deep space.Goku needs to breathe and shit.

Frankly it's amazing how many times they can repackage this same "It's the Ebil Flash, he's even Fasterer" shit and the fanbase just eats it up with excitement.

The Rogues would murderfuck most other supervillian teams. They're really powerful even by cape standards.

And yes, their powers come from their toys. The same is true of Green Lanterns.

There are low tier Rogues. Prankster and Heatwave for instance.

But then you have guys like Captain Cold and his "I project a cone of lower atomic movement so that the Flash is forced to slow down around me".

And then you have guys like Abra Kadabra "its future tech that might as well be magic, and sometimes its just fucking magic" and Doctor Alchemy "Your blood is now acid".

And then there's Mirror Master.

Fucking Mirror Master.

His power isn't even that he can control mirrors. His power is that he can do whatever the fuck he wants so long as he frames it as mirror themed.

>Can get sucker punched by a guy with normal reflexes in a parka
>Can somehow challenge a guy who can build housing complexes in a second.

It's dumb shit. And of course their weaponry is all Science-Magic in an attempt to explain shit.

3 times, maybe? Also there's a lot more to a character than his powers.

Most alternate versions of Superman are stronger than the original Superman, though.

That's exactly why comparing him to Superman is fucking retarded. Goku's all right, but Superman is a better person than he is or ever will be because he's fucking Superman.

>His power is that he can do whatever the fuck he wants so long as he frames it as mirror themed.
I did not know this about him. That's some hot shit.

I love learning new things with Cred Forums.

Exactly. It's one of the few things the new Dragon ball stories have done is establish Beerus as an unreachable goal. The only way to have a series focus on Goku again is give him a new high that he can't obtain and a new master to allow him to reach that level. Beerus and Whis are probably one of the best things established because it gives Goku a new peak to strive for that he really hasn't had since Cell saga. It's weird to think that King Kai was Goku's last master.

Alternatively Beerus and Whis are the first time we've seen Vegeta take a master. While for Goku this is a natural step, for Vegeta it was very humbling.

I can totally accept that Superman could beat Goku, But we all must also accept that he would get his shit stomped in by this guy.

You go on the wikipedia and it'll say something like how he uses a mirror dimension and a mirror gun.

But there's so much fucking more to him.

He can reflect attacks. Because mirrors. He can make clones of himself. Because mirrors. He can cut you in half. Because mirrors. He can shrink people into nonexistence. Because mirrors. He can turn you into a mirror. Because mirrors.

You know the Hanged Man from JoJo? Mirror Master is that but even more so.

His powers are fluctuating for some reason, so he's just between New 52 Supes and Post Crisis Supes.

Superman also worked hard to control his powers. You'd know this if you've read his comics.

Going to try to find some nice Mirror Master feats.

Here's him locking stuff inside a mirror.

>Reflecting an object on his mirror lets him store it in his pocket dimension.

I mean it sounds like a legit power you'd come up for a mirror wizard if you had to design one for a game.

He taps into the [Mirror force]

Makes a clone of himself out of mirror. Flash punches it. Now he's in Flash's earpiece.

Red Son was about Superman taking the role to save the world and going too far, later redeeming himself and learning from his mistake for never giving humanity a chance to fend for itself. Injustice is straight up hypocritical Superman who murders and tortures because "muh Lois, muh baby and muh city".

Somehow does THIS to a client that tries to backstab him.

Part 1.

I hate that BvS went that route with implying Superman would go full Superdick if he lost "muh Lois" during the Bat dream.

Can I get a Superman that isn't one bad event from falling to the dark side? Its rather insulting that they keep insisting with stuff like Injustice that Batman is the sane rational one keeping tabs on the metahumans who are always close to snapping.

He's fucking Batman. He's the least socially adjusted member of his super team. If anyone stood a risk of snapping and taking over the world its the guy that already gives zero fucks about the privacy of his friends.

>He was stalling Buu until Trunks could find the Dragon Radar
So his seven year old son could fight the regenerating monster instead of trying to kill it himself.

>Gohan dropping the earring wasn't Goku's fault at all.
No, telling Gohan not to worry about it was.

>Nobody was stopping Vegeta from going out and killing them
Other than not knowing where they were and not being strong enough to pull it off.

>He did fight with Trunks so that Cell could absorb 18.
Which wouldn't have mattered if Goku had killed the androids in the first place.

>Still Vegeta's fault.
It's Vegeta's fault Goku didn't just teleport away and deny him any chance of reviving Buu?

>See, you're saying Vegeta wins at being a dad because of Future Trunks
No, I'm saying he's a better dad because he actually gives a shit about his son and spends time with him. The fact his son turned out to be the savior of the future is just icing on the cake.

>Gohan wins with Teen Gohan, Mystic Gohan
Yes. A psychotic cyborg torturing him and his friends and an old pervert did a better job of empowering Gohan than Goku did. Father of the year material.

>the badass that was Future Gohan.
Who was a loser.

>I really don't know what you're trying to say there.
Vegeta tried to protect his son and gave his life doing it. Goku couldn't even be bothered to fight the monster and tried to pass it off to his children, eventually leading to both their deaths.

>Goku suggested they go get Gohan and Gotenks
Which had already occurred to Vegeta and he (along with Goku) rejected for stupid plot reasons.

Part 2

Also, he's very, very Scottish. Although technically he's the 2nd Mirror Master. The first one died during Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Fuck no. He and Zamasu somehow made it worse.

FBI guy gets MIRROR'ED.

Also a nice description of the Rogues, who they are, and what they do.

Different guy. His planet wasn't even destroyed.

Most of Superman's villains are either equally strong super aliens, super geniuses, super wizards or super demons/super gods. What most people don't understand is Superman doesn't struggle with our daily life issues and our problems because he's Superman, so his problems are on a higher scale. His problems, his enemies and his struggles are as super as he is, or are usually shit he has to think about and defeat morally or verbally and not physically. You can't punch poverty or world hunger away, user.

Goku's a lot of fun, but he's probably among the handful of character's that is legitimately more one-note that Superman. Supes, on the other hand, has a lot of variations and adaptations. There are so many versions of Superman it's sometimes hard to pin the character down. However, there is only one rendition of Goku, and several versions of Superman are far better developed than Goku's ever been.

I'd pick Superman, but they're honestly written to about the same depths 90% of the time, so it's hard to say one is objectively better than the other.

Superman

>Goku and Vegeta will eventually surpass Beerus and Whis
Except they won't, as none of the Super shit is canon.

>those guys can snuff out universes
Why are DB fans so retarded?

>Superman has at his best
Lifted an infinitely heavy object, ignoring reality warping shenanigans.

>Goku has fought opponents above the speed of light.
No one in DB has come remotely close to that speed. Buuhan still used his eyes.

>While Goku has always been naturally gifted
He relies on Otherworldly training and Saiyan genes, that's literally all he's got.

i think he means to say, toriyama has lost his marbles.

I remember goku caught an entire island in the freeza saga BEFORE he could even turn SS. Fact of the matter is that comparing two ridiculously strong characters is pointless because comics and manga are very inconsistent about how strong the characters are.

A goku/superman fight just CANT happen because there's no real established basis for their strength.

I see where you could make that mistake. Y'see this is SUPA man. Local douchebag who transforms after eating pickled plums.

>Saiyan genes, that's literally all he's got

So your genes are not natural gifts?

Supahman

>So your genes are not natural gifts?
They are, but lets not pretend him getting conked on the head then his power level jumping three orders of magnitude is something he 'earned'.

It's easier to make Batman the underdog in those stories. People love underdog bullshit and people love Batman. Have him try and beat some unstoppable force with nothing but his resources and wit and you get people sucking his dick in ever media. Doing that with Superman is much harder since Batman would get his ass kicked in an instant.

He's a parody you know?

>He relies on Otherworldly training and Saiyan genes, that's literally all he's got.
I'm referring to in universe. During the "Hunt for the Dragonballs" arc, he was already much stronger than most threats that came their way. But not to the extent Superman was. Goku started at a much higher base skill level than most people but from that onward (most) everything he got was something he had to work for. Even among earthlings he was still easily beaten by guys like Tao Pai Pai and General Blue. I can't imagine Superman at any age struggling with half of the stuff Goku did.

Just like with Hanged Man, if he kills your reflection he kills you.

Also, his mirror dimension connects to every mirror on Earth. And he's able to sense which mirror leads to where.

So unless you go somewhere without any reflections at all like his ex-girlfriend did he can find you in seconds.

>from that onward (most) everything he got was something he had to work for.
Until Z, where zenkais and otherworldy training account for the vast majority of his power. Even his SS1 transformation was anger at the death of a friend, whereas most everyone else trained to achieve it.

With the right cards, sure. But magic is kinda cheating.

>otherworldy training account for the vast majority of his power

Otherworldy training is still training you know.

Metal.

The Gatchan could beat Superman if they got serious.

True. Although Zenkai was only done once and he did at least TRAIN on King Kai. Otherworldly training isn't really a bonus. King Kai is just as much a master as Korin and Kami. And even then, Everyone trained with Kami. Hell, Everyone (barring Krillin and Gohan) trained with King Kai. The only other "otherwordly training" Goku received during Z was learning instant transmission on yardrat and learning the fusion dance. And event hen those are all things he worked for personally. He had to train hard to learn the kaiyoken and spirit bomb, and both of them have huge glaring weaknesses.

But yeah, Zenkai and SSJ aren't as earned as everything else. Although you can at least give him credit for learning how to make the form his base. He didn't just keep the form as is, he experimented with it and honed it. Trained himself to use a technique no one could possibly teach him.

So you are telling me Mirror Master would fuck the shit outta Goku?
Because I can actually believe that.

Depends entirely on who's writing it.

No fucking way.

I was never really sure where to put the gatchans, power wise. Like are they Arale tier? Or is it just their lazers hurt a lot and their ability to eat practically anything metal make them formidable?

Sorry about the tiny size.

"It's mad science."

Here's him copy+pasting things out of reality with his mirror gun.

So he can just teleport your head to the mirror dimension if he wanted to.

Mirror Master would fuck Goku up. Especially sense Goku is rather easy to trick.

So, a better question would be who in th e Db universe could stand a chance against Mirror Master?

>Otherworldy training is still training
On steroids.

>Otherworldly training isn't really a bonus.
King Kai notes a year's worth of training with him is the equivalent of several thousand years of training on Earth. It's a stupidly huge advantage on top of the godly techniques he was taught.

>And even then, Everyone trained with Kami.
In the mortal realm.

>Hell, Everyone (barring Krillin and Gohan) trained with King Kai.
And they lacked Saiyan genes.

>The only other "otherwordly training" Goku received during Z was learning instant transmission
And the eight years he spent dead.

>He had to train hard to learn the kaiyoken and spirit bomb, and both of them have huge glaring weaknesses.
Kaio Ken is the best technique in the series short of Buu's absorption and potara fusion. Stupidly huge power boost with no downside once mastered that he never bothered to teach to anyone else.

>He didn't just keep the form as is, he experimented with it and honed it.
Mostly in the Otherworld, unlike Vegeta who learned SS1 and SS2 via normal training.

I think Instant transmission would get goku out of a lot of those situations, but I also can't reasonably think of a way Goku could BEAT him either, so...Victory Mirror Master.

>Which has what to do with Goku's perfect losing record against Vegeta.
Let's not get carried away.

He can't even with Thor.

I want this to be a thing now.

Who in DBZ/Your favorite anime can beat the Mirror Master?

Here's him hypnotizing an entire bank and forcing them to confront their worst fears. So mind control is a thing. Because mirrors.

He can also walk through shit. Because mirrors.

So yeah. Shadowcat's power set, one of the most broken power sets in comics, is one of his SUB-powers.

Also, can't find a pic, but I swear there was one where he ordered a reflection to beat up its owner in Geoff John's Flash run.

So when you're fighting him you're also fighting yourself.

>Let's not get carried away.
Indeed, Vegeta is far too hard on himself for having never lost a fight against Goku.

Actually does.

I actually think Sakura Card Captor can.

>King Kai notes a year's worth of training with him is the equivalent of several thousand years of training on Earth. It's a stupidly huge advantage on top of the godly techniques he was taught.
I'm pretty sure he was either exaggerating or was speaking merely of how the increased gravity on his planet makes all training so much more meaningful. Also I'm gonna need a source on that cuz I don't remember that at all.

>And they lacked Saiyan genes.
That's not really the point we were talking about though. We already agreed being a saiyan is a bonus. Why would you bring that up?

>And the eight years he spent dead.
Yes, which is why I also said he learned fusion. During the 8 years he was dead in other world.

>Kaio Ken is the best technique in the series short of Buu's absorption and potara fusion. Stupidly huge power boost with no downside once mastered that he never bothered to teach to anyone else.
Kaioken is literally a technique that destroys your body to use it. It's a double edged sword and has almost always resulted in Goku severely crippling himself.

>Mostly in the Otherworld, unlike Vegeta who learned SS1 and SS2 via normal training.
What are you talking about. I was referring SPECIFICALLY to the time he spent in the Time chamber as gohan, where he made super saiyan his base form.

>According to Dragon Ball Super, Goku doesn't even kiss Chi-Ch

Did that rock to the head give him fucking autism?

Can turn things backwards. Just something interesting.

Can she do anything with light or darkness? That's always been Mirror Master's one big weakness.

That's how Barry beat him in the very first issue of the Flash. He simply turned of all the lights.

He practices, mostly to satisfy Wondy's desire for a sparing partner.
Don't be silly.

I would tell you Accelerator from Index but I think that's cheating.

That shit's so fucking boring though.
Evil Gokus have at least offered some variation. Black is literally the worst, most creatively bankrupt one though,

Oddly enough, it wouldn't even be the first time he's done it.

I think she can do something with light but don't remember.

>Can she do anything with light or darkness?
Pretty sure those were the last cards she captured.

Sakura Kinimoto is OP as FUCK.

> Can she do anything with light or darkness? That's always been Mirror Master's one big weakness.

Light? This guy then.

youtube.com/watch?v=kS-TI-4GQUA

>that it threatened the entire universe
That was the threat that Buu posed. He would have just kept destroying populated planets until he got them all. Goku dropped the ball a few times with that.

Well, as of Super he seems fine with prolongued fights in space.

That's cheating.
Also Pucci, D4C and Weather Report is cheating.

Vegeta has never lost a fight to Goku though

laser beam
I mean heat vision

Supes' seen a lot weirder than that.

Why? Just heat vision his ass to nothing

Surprised nobody posted this yet: youtube.com/watch?v=0MW9Nrg_kZU

He can absorb the photonic impressions on an object and see its past.

Not the most damaging power, but it gives you an idea as to the scope of Mirror Mater's powerset. His power is ALL THE MIRRORS.

Also in an alternate reality Mirror Master was fatally wounded by Captain Cold but he managed to keep himself alive by retreating to the Mirror Dimension.

He's immortal as long as he doesn't leave it. And as we've seen he doesn't have to leave it to hurt someone.

GER vs a reflection of GER

Oh fuck I don't even know who wins. Or how. Or why.

How would you even describe such a fight?

>D4C

Depending on whether of not D4C can warp Valentine out of the Mirror Dimension Mirror Master's got a pretty good way to shut down his powers, assuming we don't bring Love Train into this. But hey, spin force powers were able to beat it. Maybe mirror force can as well?

I wasn't even talking Requiem Giorno. Just regular Giorno'd probably do it. By that extent Jotaro'd probably have a field day.
Josuke might be fucked though, although he can reform any mirror he shatters.

Jolyne's gonna die.

The fact that he talks like a cartoonish Scottish character disturbs me. I want to take him seriously but I can't, not even a wee bit.

Gotenks did that. Litterally exploded him to pieces and then incinerated all the pieces. He came back from the smoke.

About that, any good "Batgod gone wrong" stories?

Not that guy but even though most of the Time Chamber year happened off screen, it's obviously been influencial on Gohan, as was his father entrusting him as the man.

I'm a Vagina-fag, just sayian.

Ah. Here we go.

You know that thing Valentine does where he brings in friends from other universes to help him?

He can do that.

But they're evil versions of you.

And they all talk mirror.

So yeah. You're going to be fighting evil clones of yourself from other worlds.

Any Touhou character would be cheating, but the most bullshit one would probably be Reimu. She can literally fly into a different dimension so that nothing could affect her.

see Ok who can win a fight between Mirror Master and Hol Horse with J.Geil?

Superman doesn't solve poverty or world hunger though.
Or if he does, I'd like to know how.

He did that on Kingdom Come and was helping a poor country on Action Comics Futures End.

Wait, I think I phrased it wrong. Its more like a higher plane of existence instead of a different dimension.

You know how he can trap things in mirrors?

He just has to crack the mirror and they all die.

Mirror Master is J. Geil on roids.

>He's fucking Batman. He's the least socially adjusted member of his super team. If anyone stood a risk of snapping and taking over the world its the guy that already gives zero fucks about the privacy of his friends.
He invades their privacy cause they're threats to the earth and get mind controlled all the fucking time. Batman's the only one who practices resisting mind control, the only one who practices period. He's responsible, they just have power.

Dwayne McDuffie's Paladin, the Search for Ray Palmer where Batman went lethal after Joker killed Jason Todd and killed every supervillain, and kept killing them (but otherwise remained hidden and didn't pretend to be a hero).
Owlman. Kingdom Come.

So is DB, but people and the author ended up taking it too seriously and now we end up with supasayiajingottosupasayiajin or whatever it is.

She could win. But Mirror Master knows all sorts of weird as shit mirror dimensions.

Here's one where time runs in reverse. He traps Wally's waifu Linda (he's wearing speedforce armor in the scan, that's why he looks so different) in it.

From the same story is the Rainbow Flash trap where he tricks Flash into running into a crystal at light speed that divides him into several multi colored Flashes that can't slow down.

Because like I said, mirrors.

Didn't Superman learn shit from the future? Or is that no longer canon?

>Superman vs Goku thread
>ends up being derailed into Mirror Master vs anyone

>the Search for Ray Palmer where Batman went lethal after Joker killed Jason Todd and killed every supervillain
Punisherbats.

Because fuck you is why.

Buu, Shenron/Porunga, Whis, Chronoa, Captain Ginyu, maybe Guldo, Korin, Babadi, Babba, Dracula, Spike because he beats almost everybody, full preptime Bulma or Senbei with enough bumbling out of the way to succeed for once, Turbo. Probably a lot more, too. Dragonball is a big multiverse.
>Can she do anything with light or darkness?
Those cards are on pretty good terms with her, so she is a master of those elements, yes.

There was that one Alex Ross comic directly about world hunger.

He creates a utopia in Red Son and All-Star. I remember some Silver Age stories about him helping scientists explore outer space and stopping famines. He's also credited by the Legion of Superheroes with ushering in their Star Trek utopia.

Grant Morrison's Action Comics run ends with Superman helping scientists on Mars create a unified theory of physics, arguably the greatest scientific advancement of all time. This like so many other good Grant Morison ideas from that run is never followed up on.

Golden Age Superman was like Tom Joad with super powers. He destroyed ghettos and ended wars by forcing the generals of both sides to sign a peace treaty. He forced factory workers to work like their workers so they'd know how it felt. He was a social justice warrior .

Is that really such a bad thing?

In all honesty, this is way better than dragging out the same arguments over and over again

Somehow I feel this fucker will lose to some pokemon shit like Enel did.

But could Goku eat more than Pac-man?

So he just does it like Lex cures cancer, no explanation given, it just sounds cool to say he did.

>spoiler
I mean yeah, that's sort of at the basis of superheroes, the term is just misappropriated.

>Owlman. Kingdom Come.
Oh yeah.
Will look up the other 2, thanks user.

It's funny that you bring that up because there's literally a joke about them not being able to pronounce that.

Ended up better.

>Telling someone "lick me" in mirror-universe will cause them to immediately take off and kill somebody
Good to remember.

>Ginyu
How?
>Spike
Who?
>Bulma
kek
>Not mentioning Devilman or Dabura

There's still comedy, it's just much more ill-fitting.

You mean the fact that Luffy's rubber canceled lightning?

It was a bit of a stretch, but the basis was solid. Rubber does not conduct electricity.

Light's counter would be Darkness. Wich Blackbeard has.

I actually wonder how a fight between them would go.

>So he just does it

Depends on the story. In the Silver Age the "son of a scientist" aspect got a lot more play. Part of the Fortress of Solitude was for experiments. He was always working for the betterment of mankind. But of course the focus of the stories wasn't on that.

Red Son is all about his ever growing super utopia vs the United States growing steadily more impoverished.

Kingdom Come is about the reconciliation between superhumans and normals. The happy ending is depicted as coming about through mutual understanding and cooperation.

The Alex Ross story is about him trying and failing to cure world hunger.

All-Star uses Kryptonian super science to save the world as one of his final tasks before he dies.

Strange Visitor Superman Outlives the entire universe holding entropy itself in his hand, then lets it go as he's the last one in the universe. As the universe dies he opens a portal in space and time to retrieve a space shuttle exploration team from long ago with whom he travels to another universe .

In DC One Million Superman turns into Superman Prime after charging up in the sun and becomes a reality warper. He doesn't really need to do anything to make the world a utopia as his Superman dynasty has already made the solar system pretty post-scarcity Star Trek.

>No explanation given

>>Ginyu
>How?
The guy has only the 1 trick.

Not Kenshiro, Kenshin. The samurai guy.
Jack would actually annihilate him with his magic sword and superior calf muscles.

can mirror master see vampires?

It's fair, and I liked it at the moment, it fits very well for Luffy.
And yeah my worry is Black Beard getting more of his "wow darkness is just anti-everything you guys" treatment. I'd like to not see whathisname's death coming.

>Ginyu one trick
So what, he would exchange bodies with a mirror copy.

Superman is the correct answer.

It wouldn't surprise me if there's some sort of photonic impression mirror magic super science thing he could do to detect them.

Having him fight a vampire would be interesting to see.

When "I tricked the Flash into running into a crystal at light speed which divided him into seven different rainbow Flashes" there's not much a writer can't justify him doing with mirrors.

Blackbeard's glaring weakness is him basically taking double damage from everything.

oh fuck, I think we've found his weakness.

They haven't shut up in 20 years. They might never.

That kid was the rape science homo baby of him and Lex Luthor. He was effectively 17 when they met. What do you want from the man?

You know, he would have made a great villain for I Vampire. Shame the series got canned.

And his weakness is he needs a reflection of some sort. First time he was ever defeated Flash just flipped a light switch. Shut him down on the spot.

The thing is he's OP as fuck...so long as he has light to work with. No light, no reflections.

see
Still no explanation, "he was really smart about it, yo", basically. World hunger is not something you just solve by wishing up more food.
I'm a casual when it comes tu Supes but it triggered me when they just said in passing in Red Son that Lex cured cancer and invented not-sleeping pills. And that's it, doesn't that sound cool and shit?

I understand there's a lot more o Superman (and some of the comics I read) than just that, it just seems like such a lazy throwaway "oh that just got solved" thing.

It's just me being autistic, nevermind.

That's bullshit. That just makes him look like he might lose but we all know he'll reach Raftel or whatsit.

Its actually funny. Back in the Silver Age Zeus was mad jelly of Superman being more powerful than he was.

Do you really want them to give a big exposition dump in the middle of the story about how the magic Kryptonian science works?

Superman

You have to use a special ki destruction technique to destroy Buu's goo. Superman simply can't do that. He'd need a gimmick. Not the Phantom Zone, shit wouldn't work.

>Do you really want them to give a big exposition dump in the middle of the story about how the magic Kryptonian science works?
Either that or don't "world hunger got solved because that makes me look awesome". There's a point where's it's just pissing in the wind with that stuff.

It gave him full on retardation.

He against DIO.

His full name is "Spike the Devilman". And Bulma absolutely could with her comedic failure counter used up.

i think the phantom zone would be enough actually.

>Toriyama
>Taking something seriously.
Get your head out of your ass.

Perhaps, but when one series has been reusing the same plot over and over for decades, and the protagonist has motives beyond eat and punch stuff, it's clear which is better.

On that note if you want to do it right see how Reed Richards cures a man's cancer in Hickman's run.
Too bad it puts a giant plothole in the Marvel Universe since it happens in 616, but you know.

>Cell saga

Each one is much stronger than Arale, the beams even more so, not even accounting for their eating ability. Only three characters were stronger than just one of them, and one of those was God.

>Mirror Master vs. DIO

Let this be the new Superman vs. Goku, please

if only for a while

Sure didn't work for Piccolo.

what? Are you talking about the time chamber?

That is more interesting than Goku vs Superman.

Rice Cooker I think.

That might actually have worked against Buu. But neither Roshi nor Tien encountered him while aware of his nature as a construct of evil energy.

Buu literally got trapped in another dimension got mad a punched a hole in reality by yelling loud and escaped

...

>No one in DB has come remotely close to that speed. Buuhan still used his eyes.

What are you basing this on? The Anime or the Manga? Fights are drastically slowed down in the anime. Through out the Manga, Goku himself had multiple feats that involved him reacting and moving faster than light.

Super Buu (Gohan) was using his eyes to track Vegetto rather than seeking his Ki.

Sorry kid, but if you do the math Superman's IMP has enough force to destroy 750 planets, not just one.

>to a young man with an actual sense of justice and desire to befriend his opponents instead of killing them
No, completely wrong. Goku liked to let his enemies live so they could get stronger and he could fight them again. Jesus fuck, is this how bad DBZtard nostalgia is?

Superman versus Droopy.

That's how in was in the dub I'm pretty sure, where they played Goku more like Superman.

They completely blew it with his origin and motive as everybody predicted it from the get go and got it right.

Turles at least had an actual goal and actually achieved it, more or less. Shame about underestimating Earth's native and non-native population.

Reimu doesnt fly anywhere she literally move out of all existence wherever the fuck she flies no one not even Yukari who can pretty much do anything knows.

Lel Mirror Master is serious business.

>I trivialized your argument with 'muh' so Im right now!

>Except they won't, as none of the Super shit is canon.

But it is, where are you getting the idea that it isn't canon from?

>Why are DB fans so retarded?

Goku and Beerus nearly destroyed the universe, Whis is far stronger then Beerus and can rewind time with ease, Goku went X10 SSB and somehow was faster then Hit, who was literally skipping time, I am pretty sure Beerus and Whis can destroy entire Universes and i am pretty sure that at least x10 SSB Goku can destroy the Universe.

>Lifted an infinitely heavy object, ignoring reality warping shenanigans.

Infinity by definition is a number too massive to properly calculate and I am pretty sure that Captain Marvel/Shazam was helping Superman lift it, meaning Superman was actually lifting half of that infinity, still a impressive feat, but not nearly as impressive as your make it out to be.

>I'm pretty sure he was either exaggerating
There's no indication he was exaggerating at all.

>Also I'm gonna need a source on that cuz
DBZ Chapter 17, "158 days with me is like a few thousand years of training on Earth."

>Why would you bring that up?
Because that's why Goku is so much stronger than the others.

>During the 8 years he was dead in other world.
Receiving thousands upon thousands of years equivalent in training.

>Kaioken is literally a technique that destroys your body to use it.
Goku was using KK x10 passively with no downsides against Frieza. It's ridiculously good.

>What are you talking about.
The fact Goku didn't train as hard as the others to earn what he got. Also, Cell Saga, the only time he did train, had his power being entirely irrelevant.

>What are you basing this on?
The fact no one is shown to move near lightspeed.

>Through out the Manga, Goku himself had multiple feats that involved him reacting and moving faster than light.
He doesn't have a single one.

>Super Buu (Gohan) was using his eyes to track Vegetto rather than seeking his Ki.
Because Vegetto, the strongest being in canon, was moving slower than light.

>But it is
It isn't. It is a continuation of the anime, which isn't canon.

>where are you getting the idea that it isn't canon from?
The fact it is never declared canon and a continuation of the anime.

>Goku and Beerus nearly destroyed the universe
No, they 'nearly' scattered all the mass in their tiny universe due to the interaction of their godly magic, it had nothing to do with brute strength. Only Omni King is noted (never shown) to destroy a universe.

>Whis is far stronger then Beerus
Define 'far'. Because beyond who beats up whom there's no physically quantifiable reason for believing that.

>can rewind time with ease
In an extremely limited manner. What does that have to do with destroying a universe?

>Goku went X10 SSB and somehow was faster then Hit
Because the power increase let him break out of the time stop, he wasn't 'faster than time' or any such bullshit.

>I am pretty sure Beerus and Whis can destroy entire Universes
Then you're pretty fucking wrong.

>i am pretty sure that at least x10 SSB Goku
Because does absolutely nothing close to it?

>Infinity by definition is a number too massive to properly calculate
No it isn't, it's infinite, infinitely higher than any finite number of any finite numbers put together.

>meaning Superman was actually lifting half of that infinity
Which is infinity, and Ultraman carries the book by himself.

>not nearly as impressive as your make it out to be.
>being able to express infinite physical force isn't impressive
Meanwhile, Goku can't lift 40 tons in base in canon.

I'm loving the Mr. Satan show so far during Cell Games

Yes he is. He even stole a pair of sunglasses because he couldn't be arsed to deal with Tien's one god attack.

SSJ Goku was still far more powerful than 100% Frieza and he knew it. The anime extends the fight for suspense, in the manga he just trashes him with no effort.

Good thing Goku can punch away galaxies.

>The fact no one is shown to move near lightspeed.
>He doesn't have a single one.
Catching the 4 Star Dragon Ball after Shenron made a wish, Outmanuvering Tien's Solar Flare, Dodging lightning...

So I guess Saiyans aren't born from their mothers? Weird that an allegedly shitty backwater planet like theirs has artificial wombs.

I said one because in the next comic panel, Superman was knocked out, floating in space.

Ok it's fairly obvious that current Goku is now stronger than composite supes. You'd need someone like Pre Crisis Supes or Superboy Prime to take him on. I mean, Superboy Prime punched beast boy so hard he fucked up the timeline and he was seeing multiple versions of himself. And this was before the Guardian Amp

Superman can't solve those issues, but the point is he tries. He can't stop cancer, but he can at least go a cheer up cancer patients or share his Kryptonian technology for scientific purposes. Superman's all about helping others in any way he can.

>muh laser beam

His time with The Legion is constantly being retconned or changed, but I think it's still canon for Post Crisis Superman.

>losing to Muhamma Ali with red sun lamps everywhere.
> comparable to "lel I let my guard down for some stupid fucking reason"

>en español
Why?

>Goku could've beaten Cell in the opening round of the Cell Games
Are you retarded?

>let his guard down
>got shot by a ring laser that for all we know had the power of a million nukes behind it; Frieza had it as a contingency to kill someone as powerful as Goku, even if it looks puny
>dubiously canon anyway
Yeah nah if people can keep bringing up the laser as "NUH UH GOKU CAN'T BEAT UP SUPERMAN I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT IT ANYMORE LALALA" then I sure can point out that Superman got KO'd by a literal normie

This is some weak bait

There's the guy who is the template, the prime model for the modern mythic hero who exemplifies hope, power and virtue. He works as an investigative journalist and blogger.

The other is a guy who likes to get into fights, to the point where he will allow a world ending threat to recover so he can have better sport. Oh and he is unemployed.

Goku's power level makes no sense. He's supposed to be strong enough to destroy the universe and yet 1000 tons is too heavy for him and he would die if he didn't have air and relatively low temperatures can kill him and he's nowhere near the speed of light. Superman is consistently better when he's written properly.

>Catching the 4 Star Dragon Ball after Shenron made a wish
Not remotely comparable to light.

>Outmanuvering Tien's Solar Flare
Grabbed sun glasses before it came out as part of a gag.

>Dodging lightning
Also far slower than light.

>Ok it's fairly obvious that current Goku is now stronger than composite supes.
How? Goku hasn't gotten stronger in 20 years, and the Super version is still a physical weakling KOed by a Kamehameha that didn't singe the grass under him.

He's not strong enough to destroy the universe yet. Just a couple of galaxies. He's FTL. He can survive in the most upper atmosphere. 1000 tons isn't too heavy for him.

I think it's pretty obvious that Goku is now much more powerful than Superman.

>Goku hasn't gotten stronger in 20 years, and the Super version is still a physical weakling KOed by a Kamehameha that didn't singe the grass under him.

And Superman regularly gets hurt by being smashed with cars.

>And Superman regularly gets hurt by being smashed with cars.

laser gun.....heart disease....a rock

>super powered laser ring
>super heart disease that needs medicine from the future
>filler

>denial
>denial
>denial

>no argument
>no argument
>no argument

You're right, that's what I should've posted as a reply.

I mean
>filler

That shit was laughable. Not as funny as putting super in front of laser ring and heart disease, but funny nonetheless.

user Supes bleeds from hits he should be able to not even feel. Inconsistency is a thing

>still no argument

>>super powered laser ring
>>super heart disease that needs medicine from the future
>>filler

A ring that shot a Laser is Laser Gun
Heart Disease is Canon

Laser ring is super powered.
Heart disease canonly need a medicine from the future

My argument is that your points are laughable.

You dismiss events, whether you like that they happened or not, they still happened.

>no cure currently developed
>it's a super disease!!!

Dude...

>dismissing events
>when I actually replied to your "points"
>still no arguments

>society with super technology
>implying they still need to develop a cure for the common heart disease
>implying it isn't a super heart disease

You made dismissive comments ton excuse them as examples.

They weren't even my points, by your reply was so weak I had to point that out

>he still have no arguments

Like the colds people still get in that world.

The common cold that hasn't been cured here either?

Oh shit, is the common cold a super disease because they haven't developed a cure?!? Wait, I'm not a moron, no, a disease's cure or lack thereof is not an indication of how serious it is, I know this.

I know, it's pretty definitely proven that Superman is best at this point.

Can't even refute Holy's blatant weakness.

But user we do have a cure for the common cold. What we don't have is something that can prevent the common cold. You're pretty stupid you know that? Also
>society with super technology

>he still try to argue his way out

He would

Cure /= natural defenses

We have developed nothing to cure it.

Now what we do have are things to prevent infections from the common cold and other diseases, like hygiene and antiseptics.

You're pretty stupid, you know that?

>he is still posting those pics without engaging

Don't play, don't lose, eh, user?
The only failure is in not trying, user.

WHO IS STRONG?

We have a cure you idiot. Sure we could get better by our self but we also could get better with some medicine. Cure != vaccine you dumbass. Oh, if you still don't understand. I meant vaccine when I say we don't have some that can prevent the common cold.

>HE'S STILL TRYING

There's a reason why its called SUPER-Sayian. Akira Toriyama was influenced by Superman, so no Superman means no Goku.

No matter how much Cred Forums wants to argue or say "Superman is lame" and heroes like Goku and One-Punch Man...Superman is their daddy.

Superman has battled cosmic threats beyond Goku's scope, he has battled Universe draining Vampires to tyrant Gods.

I'm a fan of Goku and I think Goku will be happy just sparring with Superman.

Vaccines don't prevent diseases, they prevent deaths from them.

They allow you to have defenses in case an infection occurs.

There's no point in developing a vaccine for something that usually doesn't kill on it's own.

Cold medicine doesn't cure your cold either.

You ran out of loli?

I don't think you belong here.

Your game is weak and you have saved enough pictures to compensate. It's your weakness. Like Goku is weak to lasers, rocks and atherosclerosis.

>HE'S NOT GIVING UP MAKING FUN OF HIMSELF

Vaccine's do prevent diseases user.
> Vaccines reduce the risk of infection by working with the body's natural defenses to help it safely develop IMMUNITY to disease.
Oh damn user. A cure doesn't mean it instantly cures something. Damn. This is too much even for me user.

Can't you atbleast make them be actual reaction pics?

They're not even communicating anything. You even gave up in the argument.

I bet you did it with life too.

>HE'S NOT EVEN TRYING ANYMORE

Did you even read what you quoted?

It helps your body defend from it so it doesn't take hold, but it's not preventing as much as it is preparing you. They only prevent it in the ling run by minimizing it's spread, but that is only a consequence of its direct action in helping your the body's immune system.

Yeah and vaccine doesn't mean cure. A vaccine isn't a treatment.

Fist of the North Star is far superior to either the DB franchise or anything Superman but let's be real here, Kenshiro's the weakest of the three

Good on you, you can listen, you can learn.

Now, detail how a super laser is different from a regular one.

Daily reminder Goku can destroy the universe based on the fact TWO OF HIS FUCKING PUNCHS PACK ENOUGH FORCE TO RIPIT APART.

youtube.com/watch?v=bW2c3_PyW3Q

So you agree that it's a super heart disease that even cures in a society with super technology cannot cure? Thanks user.

>HE'S IMPLYING NOW

This is an interesting matchup, and would be really cool to see just because of the context and buildup of the two's characters and feats

But be real here, Jack would annihalate Kenshin faster than any singular piece of cannon fodder he fights in his episodes. Kenshin can just barely handle one gatling gun. Jack's won army battles single handedly and can deflect machinegun fire naturally a la MGR Raiden

No.

Its a heart disease that afflicts saiyans.

With like two of them on Earth, human medicine, however advanced, can't be reasonably expect to deal with a completely new disease in an alien organism.

Nothing super about it. If you weren't such a casual you could mention Superman has fallen ill to Kryptonian ailments in the past.

The laser shit still has no defense, but hey, have a freebie.

That was no implication.

It was a clear outright statement with a request.

It's a Super Saiyan heart disease user.
Laser is a super laser fired to a powered down distracted Goku when he was pitying Freeza.

>HE'S IN DENIAL NOW

Its just a disease, and it got Goku.

Funny, merely because his defenses are dropped, a laser won't kill Superman. That's quite frail.

You're losing consistency, thematic, relevance, unlike me.

I mean if your reaction folder isn't at least in four digits count, you should stop.

Superboy Prime

>NOW HE'S JUST REPLYING FOR THE SAKE OF REPLYING

Super disease that needs a cure from the future made by one of the smartest people on Earth.
Normal body can only take you so far. And for Goku that is something like an explosion from a rocket.

>now
So?

Popeye beats both their asses at the same time.

A new disease for which a cure had not yet been developed since Goku is the first recorded patient on the planet suffering from it.

I mean, its not like it came from the far future either. It took them just a few years, and with no living subject to study. That's not a very hard disease to crack.

I know Holy is pretty normal when not using his ki, I just don't understand why you point it out.

>Weird that an allegedly shitty backwater planet like theirs has artificial wombs.

I'm sure after they genocided the Tuffles/Tsufurujin they adopted their Space Travel spheres and other technology and/or acquired more technology with the money they made selling planets

...

enough of this bullshit

That just means Bulma is super smart. She also manage to make a time machine.
Because under normal fight condition Goku wouldn't let his guard down.

there are new DB manga volumes?

only 30 posts before this thread dies.
can't wait

make it 27

Bulma is a whore

he needs spinach, though

this whole discussion was cringe, congrats

never heard of him

Goku also has a stamina to yield, or t least less stamina than Superman.

Goku wins in weabooland
Superman wins in capeland

I used to love DB, but nowadays I'm a capetard

Maybe let's finish this thread with some poll?

Superman
Just let that sink

Goku has sayain blood. That's all stamina he needs

Normal fight condition?

Is Goku standing over a defeated opponent giving an opening not the norm anymore?

Or do you think taking advantage of Goku's lack of intelligence during a fight is something new?

aside from this attempt you still have 11 other unanswered points. That's not a good record...just like Goku's record of being a good dad, or all around good human being.

She also married Vegeta and fucked Yamcha.

She's not that smart, it just wasn't that resilient a disease.

Goku still hasn't even kissed Chichi.
What a fucking man child. No wonder fags like him.

Read the manga, but only watch the anime if you really like it. Dragon Ball isn't too bad, but Z might as well be called Filler: the Anime. Goku's fight with Frieza's literally lasts an entire season. Frieza's says it will take five minutes for Name to explode. It takes about six episodes.

>Goku's fight with Frieza's literally lasts an entire season
the parts where they actually fight are alright though.
Hell, the Namek-saga might actually be watchable as an adult; though I'd prefer not to put that to the test for nostalgia reasons

In the Dragon Ball world, the faster you are, the faster you can see. This is proven when Master Roshi caught the bullets of a machine gun as they were being fired.
Because the bullets are inanimate objects, they lacked Ki.

Normal people can't see what's going on and occasionally think that these fighters disappear or turn invisible.

In the World Tournament (Goku vs Tien), Goku was moving so fast that Master Roshi couldn't see him though the naked eye.

Further more what seemed like a simple scare for Krillin in the 22nd Tournament was even covered on how fast Goku was moving.

Even Tien explains how Goku won against Krillin.
mangareader.net/dragon-ball/127/12

Superman fights for something. Goku just fights to fight.

Superman is a much better person.

Just cut out the filler, and it's really good.
"You fool!" is still one of my favorite moments out of the franchise. I also liked Goku trying to get off Namek cuz it's one of the only times you see him really panicking

Superman just fights because he likes it. If he actually wanted to help the world, he'd just run on a turbine forever, generating free electricity for the world.

>he'd just run on a turbine forever, generating free electricity for the world.

And drive hundreds of millions of people out of work? This also presupposes material that can stand up to that kind of stress for very long.

While he's running on this treadmill to provide energy that we already have, who is going to stop the next bad guy from blowing up the world?

But in the end, The most important things is that there's a huge difference between putting your life on the line for other people and turning yourself into a 24/7 superslave.