What the fuck was this scene's purpose

Well, but that doesn't really apply to everyone that went to see the movie. Sure, Killing Joke was ddefinitely directed to old school Batman fans, but it wasn't really marketed as such, and seeing how popular Batman and cape movies in general are right now, you can bet a lot of peple who don't really read comics went so see this.

Ah, I see.

So it failed on multiple fronts!

I get what you're saying, but I disagree with your assessment of it.

Primarily, it shows Barbara "Not being cut out" for this sort of thing where Batman is as they have different reactions to it. This mars the parallel because it shows her as lesser.

And the creation of an emotional connection . . . Well, it hinges on her vagina and on Bruce, which is also not exactly kosher these days.

It brings up the word "Hysteria" and the roots around that "Female Problem", which in a modern context, is pretty shitty.

And given that the story arc presented has her . . . well, acting pretty unlikable, the idea that it was there to get people to like her just falls flat.

But it does help me understand what they were trying, so thank you.

I just think they didn't succeed.

>Batgirl
>On top

Seems legit.

You type like a female.

He probably hangs a lot in tumblr.

We all know Batman wants Catwoman.

*image of Ray-Norr's "Fat Cat And The Bat"*

>Primarily, it shows Barbara "Not being cut out" for this sort of thing where Batman is as they have different reactions to it...which mars the parallel
Not really. She isn't forced out of being Batgirl or harassed or told she's not good enough, she gives up the cape herself because her motivations weren't right and she was putting herself at great (mental) risk.

>the emotional connection hinges on her vagina
No, it really doesn't. The emotional connections are many and varied for Barbara. She hates Paris far too much, she's grown too attached to Bruce despite not being an equal partner (and not in terms of sexual attraction), and her pride and confidence outstrips her capabilities. It has nothing to do with sex, and even the sex scene itself is less about attraction and love and more about power and agency.

>It brings up the word "Hysteria" and the roots around that "Female Problem"
What? Are you talking about throwaway lines from a villain or passerby? I don't recall that at all.

>And given that the story arc presented has her . . . well, acting pretty unlikable
I didn't find her unlikable at all; there's a portion of the story where she's frustrating and acting out but that's part of her arc

Honestly, you're looking for problems where there aren't any. The bullshit hysteria around "THE SEX SCENE!!!!" (she half takes off her top and sex is implied but not shown) has colored people's perceptions of the prologue in what seems to me an incredibly stupid way.

In fact, all the re-framing the prologue as misogynistic comes off to me as requiring pretty heavy misogyny and projection on the part of the viewer.

It was just sex :')

It fits Batgirl's character.

Also explains her super bitchiness once she's Oracle.

>introduces the characters
>humanizes batman and barbara

You can still have sex in a wheelchair.

how does this humanize them? It just makes them look like horny teenagers.

humans have sex drives

To establish the relevance of Babs in the minds of young males.

But isn't batman suppose to be somewhat the authority figure here? Going behind Gordon's back seems pretty damn scummy and out of character for him. He's suppose to rationalize and put his feelings behind him.

>The prologue also served to create an emotional connection with Babs so her getting shot actually means something to the audience.

Pretty sure it could have done that without Timm's weird May-December romance/BabsxBruce fetish and without making her look like an incompetent stalker, dude

>Timm's weird May-December romance/BabsxBruce fetish
It's a five-second scene that isn't romantic in any way. You're grasping at straws.
>making her look like an incompetent stalker
Where are you even coming up with this?

sure, but he's also been celibate for years and he's working around a young athletic female in a skin tight outfit

Batman is the sub in this scene; it is not about a romance between the two of them, it's about Barbara taking power in their relationship as part of her unstable emotional state.

How could batman of all people be a sub, especially to Barbara. I think the scene would of conveyed the same message of Barbara's emotional state if she pounced batman but he rejected. Showing that Batman is the authority figure here and not her. It's like pouncing one of your teachers. The fun fantasy would be that they share the same emotions and you bang but realistically, they wouldn't because even if they find you attractive, they have to be above that and know it's not right.

>How could batman of all people be a sub, especially to Barbara
Oh hey, you didn't watch the fucking movie

Go away

I think the most ridiculous thing about this scene is the babs BEATS bruce

Oh yeah, because Batman has a fantastic track record when it comes to denying women who are pushing for sex that he really shouldn't fuck.

I did you cheeky derp!

>the sub

that doesn't enter into the equation here faggot, he still succumbs to his lust, he remains horny throughout the 30 minute process of taking off the batsuit in order to fug barbara

ain't no sub shit here

ok touché, granted but still not towards Barbara. I don't know the way it was portrayed in the movie specifically was just odd.

Of course Batman is submissive.

He's totally repressed his sex drive and had a messed-up childhood. It's a blind spot in his armor.

Compared to him, Batgirl is normal.

If Batman ever ended up with Catwoman, you bet she'd be on top.

you've never had sex, have you?

All Batman needs is the right woman, and he'll yield.

Of course he'll yield. Steel girders would yield under that kind of weight

fetish fuel can't melt steel beams

dude,

I think the only real difference is that I saw the movie the instant it was available and most people saw it after being exposed to complaints that focus on that particular scene. I really don't think that scene warrants the attention it gets much less the ire.

I saw it online and avoided early reviews. I agree it shouldn't have gotten the attention it did. People who didn't even watch the movie were complaining about sexism and all that stuff. This shoulda been a moment nerds like us complain about. Not some weird statement about women in film like some articles were saying.

What a fucking cunt. She could have crippled that guy.

"Oh sure, hit on me when we're outside.....IN WINTER. I'm freezing in this suit!"

How does a female type?

"Dude,"

Where's the rest of the sentence?

I'm at a loss for words

Well at least admit Ray-Norr is talented artistically.

ehhh sure, better than some other artists ive seen

It's on model (which is hard to do for fat art); good use of lighting, texture, color; anatomy looks correct, there's an actual background, etc.

i mean them wanting to fuck one another isnt all that bad of an idea, its pretty grounded honestly given their relationship and the amount of time they spend around each other

what IS bullshit though is batman acting on it, out of character for him on multiple fronts, and i feel like the whole "im just gonna give into my whims here because lol why not" thing really fucking undercuts the emotional impact the ending is meant to have
that shit is meant to be fucking bold and underlined and youve already preempted it with softcore pornography, which is almost insulting

there was definitely a proper way to do them being romantically entangled and they did it the wrong way for the sake of being able to make them fuck which is just super disappointing

>Batman getting fucked by a strong womyn who overpowers him is not in his character
see

>panning up as someone takes off their shirt is softcore pornography
>romantically entangled
Oops, you're a dumbass

batman's been repressing his sexuality for years, of course that shit is going to buckle eventually

him subsequently becoming distant and shit makes perfect sense, barbara realizes she was lusting after a guy that is broken, she cannot have a relationship with him, she basically fucked a crazy person

And you type like a Ferengi.

>sure, but he's also been celibate for years
That is fucking HORSE SHIT. If they say that in the movie, that just makes it OFFICIAL horse shit, but horse shit nonetheless. Batman bones Catwoman off-and-on and has a neverending supply of gold-digging pussy to fuck and forget. Even Grant Morrison said "Of course he gets laid, because it'd be bad for The Mission if he didn't!"

She didn't just "overpower" him, though. She DRUGGED him. Also, someone was clearly, unequivocally meant to be in the wrong there - namely Talia.

procreation

How appropriate; you type like a douche!

I assume he means double-line spacing, which is how most professions prefer you to type when you're communicating, because it promotes clarity.

A lot of blue-collar workers have a problem with it, but by no means the majority.

It would explain why Batman generally goes easy on Catwoman, and why Maven was so willing to confide in him. She knows what Batman means to her boss.

To show that batgirl had daddy issues

He's fucked Talia on more than one occasion.

Also fucking Catwoman was literally his introduction in Nu52

Also he canonically fucked and impregnated Barbara Gordon in the comics lol

Any argument that this is out of Batman's character is not just irrelevant, it's wrong.

This ain't gonna die anytime soon

>Not really. She isn't forced out of being Batgirl or harassed or told she's not good enough, she gives up the cape herself because her motivations weren't right and she was putting herself at great (mental) risk.

Which is what the problem actually is. Many fans of Batman, including Brian Azarello, dislike the extended Bat-Family, feeling that the others are just not up to it. And this portrayal of Barbara fits right in with it. She's not good enough. She is compromised. She doesn't understand. Etc.

It's a very limiting and diminishing train of thought.
>>It brings up the word "Hysteria" and the roots around that "Female Problem"
>What? Are you talking about throwaway lines from a villain or passerby? I don't recall that at all.

I'm talking about the root of the word "Hyster" - "Of the Womb". Hysteria was a long time considered a 'female problem' where they were not reacting as men were to the same stimuli (men and women being different? Clearly, the women are wrong somehow! VIctorian era mentalities are kind of shit). The reasons she gives up the cape are . . .well, linked either to that, or can be linked to the word "Upity".

In other words, she's not fit for the position. She shouldn't be there. She is emotionally compromised. She should 'know her place'.

This is 1950s shit.

Women showing pride, or confidence without it being framed as a negative is kind of rare. That and America has a real problem with people being emotional at all to start with, so we have that to think on as well. So, them being shown as problem elements to her character arc are, in fact, a problem in and of themselves.

And she still doesn't play a role in the second half of the story just makes things worse.

All I'd want is for her to hand Bruce a vital clue AFTER she has been shot. She can't help physically, but let her help solve the main conflict. Because once she's shot, as far as I can remember, she's basically a non-entity till the end.

>Who the hell is Maven?
>googles
>It's some forgotten original character donut steel from BTAS
Yeaaaah... for future reference, BTAS is great and all, but it doesn't reflect the comics as accurately as some people would have you believe. The comics have been more up-front about Batman and Catwoman having an actual relationship. Hell, when the nu52 started there was a big fuss over a splash page of Catwoman riding the Bat-dick - not because people thought they WEREN'T fucking, but because it was tastelessly done.

>I can't tell one continuity from another

Thanks for playing.

Why is this thread still going if the first post answered the question?

>Also he canonically fucked and impregnated Barbara Gordon in the comics lol
Confirmed for not understanding the difference between main-line comics and shit made to tie-in into old shows for nostalgiabucks. The infamous "Batgirl is pregnant" shit is from some DCAU book, so it's arguably canon to that particular setting... the key word being arguable, because lots of DCAU tie-in books have added a lot of things to that continuity that were either not intended by the show-runners or later contradicted. And even if it WAS "canon" to Batman Beyond, that wouldn't mean much because it's probably Bruce Timm who gets the final say on that sort of stuff, and we all know he's the only creep into that kinda shit because it only turns up in works he's involved with. Ask Scott Snyder or Grant Morrison or Peter Tomasi or Gail Simone or Hope Larson or Denny O'Neil or Chuck Dixon or Doug Moench "Did Batman ever fuck Barbara?", I guarantee you they'd unanimously go "LOL No"

>She's not good enough. She is compromised. She doesn't understand. Etc.
Except that's bullshit that you're projecting onto it. The reason is not that she's "compromised" or doesn't understand, the reason is that she's not a single-minded psychopath. She lacks the single-minded focus (read: insanity) to push herself to the edge but refrain from becoming too invested or going too far. That's not a flaw, that's not a problem, and it certainly isn't because she's got a vagina.

>the root of the word...
Nigger I have an education I know what "female hysteria" is. It has absolutely nothing to do with this movie.

>The reasons she gives up the cape are...linked either to that or the word "upity"(SIC)
No, the reason she gives up the cape is explicitly because she doesn't want to be put in a position where she can't stop herself from killing someone. It's a major fucking theme in the movie and Killing Joke and it's mind-boggling that your dumb ass thinks it had anything to do with being a woman.

You're trying extremely hard to mash a square peg into a round hole.

>it's a different continuity!
We're talking about Batman's overall character and whether he would fuck someone he shouldn't that's aggressively pursuing him.

The answer is very clearly yes, as we've seen time and again with a multitude of both heroes and villains.

Kill yourselves, pedants.

Also Maven was totally making out with her boss.

She was entrusted with Catwoman's kitty, and knew she was Catwoman.

That's like saying "Batman would totally murder someone glibly by stuffing dynamite in their pants and shoving them down an open manhole because THAT HAPPENED IN BATMAN RETURNS SO IT'S CANON"

Different continuities exist for a reason - so that turbonerds like you won't ascribe a character's behavior to every single story they ever appeared in.

>Going behind Gordon's back seems pretty damn scummy and out of character for him.
He puts Barbara's life in danger every time he goes out with her to fight killers and rapists. Gordon knows none of this either. But getting his dick wet is crossing the line? Come on.

Batgirl's origins are always explicitly about her deciding to fight crime on her own, without Batman's approval. She'd be dressing up as Batgirl and fighting killers and rapists regardless. Sticking his dick in her though? That requires a bit of complicity.

>That's like saying "Batman would totally murder someone glibly by stuffing dynamite in their pants and shoving them down an open manhole because THAT HAPPENED IN BATMAN RETURNS SO IT'S CANON"
Holy shit, no it isn't. Batman makes the same decision in EVERY continuity. He fucks someone he shouldn't in nearly every single iteration of the character.

Again: not only is your objection completely insignificant, it's fucking wrong.

user's use of elipses, combined with her passive-aggressive attitude lead me to believe she's a female.

>So it failed on multiple fronts!
Case in point.

no girls on the internet you fucking faggot

when someone says "HAY GUYZ FEMANON HERE" feel free to tits or gtfo. Until then keep your dickhole shut.

>Batgirl's origins are always explicitly about her deciding to fight crime on her own
And in what way was fucking Batman NOT a decision she made on her own? You would have us believe consensual sex is bad. What the hell.