Basic Income Might Be The Answer To Society's Productivity Crisis

Exactly. But I feel that it will happen sooner or later.

Look at welfare now. Welfare already creates dysgenics. Here in the Netherlands we have a growing white trash population thats dependant on government bucks, they get lazy, they become criminals, the whole push-factor to go out and do something is gone

A basic income will be the final deathblow to the west, it will lead to a total idiocracy.

how does it make any sense?

Assuming anyone who currently earns 0$ gets a basic income of lets say 2000$, what prevents the market to adjust all it's prices to that new baseline?

Money is an exchange for value, where the is no fucking value there shouldnt be any purchasing power, setting a artifical basic income wont change that... 2000$ a month will simply represent zero value creation.

If I didn't have to work 9 hours a day and could still afford to live comfortably I'd spend my time writing and making music. Plus all that stuff you listed.

Paul Krugman pls

>it's another Cred Forums does not understand UBI episode

A

That seems to be already happening. I do not support basic income. I instead think the government should stop being wasteful with it's resources.

FUCKING

Minimum wage is another way of saying "if I could pay you less I would"

But you don't have to work 9 hours a day, that's completely up to you. You are putting limits on yourself. You could learn how to invest, be creative. There are tons of alternative methods to make money on the side. I only work 10 hours a week and the rest I make at home with daytrading, primarily in Cryptocurrency. Also, learn how to spend money wisely and how to live frugal. if you go on expensive holidays or restaurants than yes, that's your choice, but don't blame it on others that you don't have enough money.

Don't use the doll for your shitposting, leaf.

It could be beneficial. That is, if we actually promoted to people to do something while receiving NEET bucks, as in something that might in long run become some kind of business thing. Promote somekind of activity instead of passivity where people would just take neet bucks and stay home watching Anime and shit. This would need some kind of change in thinking, back to more traditional, think like aristocrats who did shit because they hade fortune on them. But this aristocracy and tradition aspect being maybe bit too "west" and not something left would want, there is danger that this is just waste of money. Also we would need to keep borders more regulated and not allow immigrants come and waste it.

The reality is that works. The capitalist model requires growth. As automation increases and people lose jobs there is a smaller and smaller consumer base. A basic wage and then incentives to do work for extra money will maintain this consumer base.

Are you implying that people stop working after taxes?

NON-ARGUMENT

>tfw you're not a nigger and would still go to work because of the high that being self reliant provides

Feels good to not be a libshit and take pride in your work

The reason I'm struggling with life right now is because there are so many hurdles to make it in our current society, I'm just really anxious about everything.
I'm afraid of all the laws, rules and regulations that might fuck me over when I set one foot out the door and actually do something and those feelings would get even worse in a UBI society where basically your entire life is run by the government.
Instead I'd rather see the government shrink down, easen up on taxes to give people more space to work on their own lifes.
A less controlling government seems more appealing to me.

The Bush family has had guaranteed basic income for themselves and their tall Aryan clique for decades now -- they just don't want anyone else having it.

The answer to that, is that we have it - it's called welfare or benefits, and it causes no end of retarded anti-social degenerate laziness.

But it doesn't work. Not according to the laws of economics.

First of all, there would be no automation needed if there was no minimum wage.
Any automation which there would be, would not affect the unemployment rates on a massive scale- it would be doable.

However, the minimum wage creates an artificial bubble, created by the government.
It will force companies to automate labour, as this is cheaper.

As a result, more people will lose their jobs- and according to you, they need to be given a monthly amount of currency.

But where does this currency come from? The government, but who pays it? Tax payer money is not enough, in our current system tax payer money is already not enough to pay for welfare, let alone basic income.

So the government is going to print the money, which will lead to massive deficits and inflation. This destroys the incentive to save because the only sensible thing to do when inflation is sky-rocketing is to spend. People's live-savings will become worthless , any money that people would save then would become worthless in the future due to hyperinflation. Eventually the economy simply collapses and you get a massive economic depression and probably a Hitler 2.0 scenario.

The real problem is that the IQ requirement to contribute to society is increasing while the socialist-marxist policies support breeding of low IQ people while thwarting the reproduction numbers of high IQ people. All the production jobs are moved overseas so the lower IQ people are all competing over a few shit jobs.

Basic income will be a disaster because it will very quickly lead to further IQ degredation. Imagine how much stupid people without having to work will breed. The best way to improve our society and keep it intact is to limit breeding on people with lower than average IQ ( i.e. give them money in exchange for a sterilization procedure ) while subsidising or creating breeding programs for people one standard deviation higher on the IQ curve.

Just more communist bullshit using the same rhetoric.

replace all welfare, minimum wage, etc with UBI

the welfare system is rigged to the core by the petty tyranny of your typical civil servant

>First of all, there would be no automation needed if there was no minimum wage
lel

>laws of economics

They tell you they are giving you money, then privatise all public services and then take an amount from your money each month as "insurance" to use the now private services.

You are left with enough money to live in a slum and eat cheap food.

Because of this artifical government-bubble, automation will come too quick and it will lead to massive economic downfall, poverty and death, mark my words.

Automation will come- but without a minimum wage it would come gradually-naturally, adjusted to the real market value. However, because of a artificially propped up market price of labour, automation will come too quick - > there will be lots of unemployment > government starts giving out money > you get hyperinflation and a Weimar scenario.

Eventually, it will lead either to a dictatorship, civil war or take-over by another country. You weebs are economic and financial illiterates!

Upvoted.

Because it worked SO well last time.

>commie niggers still pushing this shit
but muh robots

Jesus Christ guys please take your meds. You are daydreaming again.

But muh 'Laws of Economics'.

Lets face it you don't have a fucking clue what will happen. None of us really know what will happen. With automation in the military those in power will have insane amounts of power. Human soldiers may reject orders that they feel are immoral or against the constitutions of their country. A robot soldier will have zero qualms gunning down an entire room of people.

Or AI could devolve into a terminator scenario. Or it could do amazing good for the world.

But muh automation is coming too fast. Christ cry some more. It's not coming fast enough. The economies of the west are already artificially propped up with zero contract hours, more people in University/school for longer.
Automation is the future of production. You sound like a horse and carriage driver crying about cars ending the world in 1900.

There is no alternative once automation really ramps up.

Its either that or megalopolises turn into concentration camps and then graveyards

Do you think every job is really going to be automated? I'm a tax consultant for large corporations and do transfer pricing.

...

We do know what will happen. Lots of people will be made redundant and they won't be able to retrain and they will be permanently unemployable in their middle age.

Those people will live in poverty their lives ruined. For the generation that comes behind them here may or may not be work but they will train accordingly.

Then once the generation that suffered died it will be recorded as a completely painless transition. Like when eveyone left farming to work in factories.

Factories were lovely and people left their farm work happy! Also slums were wonderful places to live.

>low skill jobs are in decline. what should we do?
>let's invest heavily in education, incentivize new businesses and attract high tech industry
>no, open the border for unskilled googles and put everyone on welfare

History repeats. I am sure we will see another weimar scenario in the future. Probably between 2020 and 2030.

This can all be prevented if we abolish the minimum wage and let the natural market price of labour follow its course. There will still be automation, but only in area's in which it is deemed profitable, where the costs of automated labour is lower then the costs of manual labour. But since there would be no minimum wage, this would only be the case in minimal fields, thus unemployment will not be severe because of it. You get a healthy economy, low unemployment and a high GDP. This is why we (the west and north) have become so rich the last 200 centuries, but we are now undoing it (just look at our economic growth, it is virtually zero!)

Weebs always talk about automation as if it will solve all things. It won't. It will create a disaster, all because of the minimum wage.
Because the youth is tending more to leftist policies (just look at the popularity of Bernie Sanders in America) I have no hope that another economic depression can be prevented. There is a lack of healthy financial and economic education in our public schools.

If the west becomes more leftist, and the minimum wage rises, automation will come very quickly. This will result in massive unemployment (and now, weebs are going to bring in Basic Income, as if, that is magically going to solve everything) in fact, basic income will destroy the economies, create massive deficits and debts, and the value of currency will become worthless. I expect this to take place the next decade.

And of course....everyone is going to blame it on the ''free-market'' again, just like communists and socialists always do when there is unemployment.

It will be interesting to see the result. I put my bets on a civil war, because we are importing millions of violent african and eastern primates in our countries, who will be the first to riot once their monthly welfare is worthless.

...

the last 2 centuries (or last 200 years)*
Sorry for my English.

Yes in the future nearly all jobs have the potential to be automated. White collar jobs are at extreme risk, people just haven't thought about it. Can your job be coded into a machine? Yes... Then it can be automated. It is just a matter of when.
Only the arts, sports and creative works will last the longest. Although we already have robots able to produce pretty incredible pieces of art.
Engineers and IT technicians/coders etc will also be a shout. But more jobs will undoubtedly be created. Part of the problem of this generation has been 'consultant' jobs which are just fluff jobs created by the boomers to replace real production jobs. 'Consultants take your watch and tell you the time' So goes the old saying.

Exactly, and why is this the case? Why is wealth-inequality higher now then what it was during the free market period of 1700 to 1910?

>Yes in the future nearly all jobs have the potential to be automated. White collar jobs are at extreme risk, people just haven't thought about it. Can your job be coded into a machine? Yes... Then it can be automated. It is just a matter of when.

ONLY IF IT IS CHEAPER!!!

If there was no minimum wage, it would not be cheaper for decades to come!! Thus, there would not be massive automation, no massive unemployment to come, no hyperinflation, no depression, and eventually, no civil war !

someone has to build and maintain them. some people are in the delusion that "automation" means fully sentient robot slaves everywhere

Also, if there was no minimum wage and no welfare, the refugee crisis would be non-existent.
Why do you think no refugees want to stay in Hungary? In Czech-Republic? In Slovakia? Because they don't get free money for doing nothing !

A lot of white I do involves client interaction and tax strategy. I don't think AI is advanced enough to go by the Internal Revenue Code, Treasury Regulations, and Supreme Court Decisions.

Cant keep growing indefinitely.

>someone has to build and maintain them.

Yeah, maintenance robots which can be maintained by other maintenance robots. Unfixable? Tear it to pieaces and recycle materials

You don't seem to understand that automation is cheaper in every sense. It will never have days off, call in sick, go on a holiday, have kids etc. The only thing automation is waiting on is technological advancement and a reduction in costs for automatons. Not this nutty idea that keeping the minimum wage where it is will stop it. You sound like a complete loon.

>giving retards free money

This is how societies fall.

then who is doing the coding? jesus, the whole thing just moves up a layer of abstraction. automation is not fucking magic.

I bet you believe we are only 5 years way from an ai too

This, how will this not just result in the devaluing of shit till the amount given buys shit all once more?

A robotic workforce would actually RAISE the income of everybody in such a scenario.
Finland wants to test this sort of welfare and as far as they calculated it it would save millions while allowing a higher welfare income.

They said it is because they can cut all the beurocratic shit.

You dont need to search for people abusing the system because you just cant abuse it.
It would also more easily allow people to raise children in a traditional way (one parent at home and only the other wörks) because of a higher combined income.

I would get around 2800€ per month with the finnish system which gives you ~1000€.

So if this would really work out it would be really great. I´d rather have this system then to just finance the turks abusing our current system.

>This.

>I bet you believe we are only 5 years way from an ai too

We already have a feature complete prototype; the human brain.

Not yet but you'd be surprised how far computers have come. Even work done by lawyers is increasingly being tested using computers to great success. The computers are so much cheaper and have the potential to work much faster that it is counterproductive to not invest in them.

>client interaction and tax strategy
Not hard to compute.
Programs do weather predictions for weeks ahead. Computer just needs information input and will "predict" better than any human. There's a reason Autopilot exists even in some cars today.

Should I just commit suicide then? Work is all I have to look forward to.

>Abolish minimum wage
>Price of goods and services is unaffected
>Wage that is cheaper than automation (lol)
>Still not earning enough to support oneself despite working 12 hours a day.

I don't think you realize how cost-effective automated manufacturing and similar are user. It's much more productive than any human worker, and has a fraction of the overhead. To compete with that you'd have to be paid pennies per hour.

You're an idiot who doesn't understand the cost of labor.

yes, I don't deny there will be automation, but if there was no minimum wage, it would come naturally, adjusted to the real-market value of labour. Automation would come gradually over a period of 100 years or so- we would have time to adapt and re-organize our economies and societies

But the minimum wage creates and artificial bubble- a fake-labour value, that will hasten the automation process. If the minimum wage is made even higher, automation will come even quicker. In fact, it will come so soon that we do not have time to adapt- as a result there will be massive unemployment, more fiat currency, hyperinflation and eventually, civil war. Mark my words.

>he wants us to work for 2 euros a month

>Basic Income
>a universal basic income
Fuck off, commie.

But like I said, you can't really just input a Revenue Ruling or an argument to a tax protest. I don't think AI will be able to do that for at least a few decades.

>give everyone $1000 a month
>prices go up like crazy
>dollar is now weaker than before
>that same $1000 is worth $10 today
Congratulations, you've played yourself.

>more national constructing

As in state funded and led? Cause private capital ain't gonna build shit cause nobody can afford it.

as it stands we are as close to replicating a brain as a google in somalia is replicating an iphone.

I wish them good luck. we voted on it already and was luckily smashed down with 90% against it

Your English is fine, keep spitting the truth friend, fuck those other cunts

Humans at first then the computers themselves. It's not hard to understand.

20 jobs done by human workers -> 20 computers engineered and maintained by one worker.
In case you didn't notice that just left 19 people unemployed.

Just like Uber. Taxi Drivers -> Uber Drivers -> Automated Uber Drivers.

You think the entire elite are going to up and move cause their income tax goes up by 5%?

>as it stands we are as close to replicating a brain as a google in somalia is replicating an iphone.

At current rate we can do a physical simulation of virtual people before europe is even close to becoming a muslim majority

Did you just say that private capital can't build buildings? Your a special kind of idiot

conservitard economics are completely wrong, if it were true then why are the rich elite stockpiling their wealth? This destroys the economy.

Seems reasonable to me, they already pay the dole here, so long as the basic income payment is at the same level as the current dole then we could scrap 90% of social security department.

kek, 3 day weather forecast has a 70-75% accuracy

you just ignore the whole shit that comes with "computers". suddenly you need an it department and so on. the work just changes and gets more complicated.

kek ok

>all those office towers

Thank you free market, for providing such natural, easy access to office towers!

>The archetype of the basic income supporter

>Not according to the laws of economics.
>laws of economics
cringe. Another teen who read a economics book

>First of all, there would be no automation needed if there was no minimum wage.
lol. I will tell you a secret. A tablet for taking orders will always be cheaper then a worker, even if he was payed 1 dolllar a hour

>However, the minimum wage creates an artificial bubble,
>"if i could pay you less, i would pay you more good goy"

Imbecile. What are apartments? What are hotels? What are casinos? Stupid stupid fuck

Basic income is literally just another form of wealth redistribution unless the government makes it happen by printing shit loads of money. Just like any other social policy, the government has to approach the rich and middle class to pay for it and for those people who pay more into the program than they receive back, it may as well be just another tax. You can offset that to a degree by mixing in newly printed money, but that just begins a never ending cycle of inflation every time the welfare checks go out.

Universal Income is just a fucking meme to expand the welfare state unless it's used as a total replacement for medicare, foodstamps, and other forms of welfare that can only be spent on one industry.

No. Computers will not have a massive effect on White collar work for a good few years. Watch how the logistics sector goes and we'll truly see what happens when automation takes over.
Taxi drivers are already a dying breed. When self driving cars are fully realised they will die off. These cars don't have to perfect just better than human drivers. Logistics makes up around 20% of the workforce. Imagine if 20% of people suddenly had their jobs taken by self driving vehicles. Well that is the future. Just like the horse and carriage was replaced by the car so will the manual vehicle be replaced by a computer controlled version. It will be interesting to see what happens as that large a section is pretty much equal to the great depression.
Perhaps one way to look at things are horses in 1900. There were millions of horses doing jobs back then. They were replaced. However, horses didn't cease to exist. Their numbers simply decreased drastically. Perhaps that is what we will see with the human population... One way or the other.

This right here.

If we practiced true capitalism then the banks would not be bailed out, the would be allowed to go bust and fresh blood would take their place.

Similarly, if we practiced true capitalism then wages wouldn't have flatlined while productivity skyrockets. This point is the most important, since the old argument that "what's good for business is good for the entire society" doesn't hold true anymore because society sees none of the profits.

That's what basic income people defend, people pursuing their interests in arts and other things that they can't do because lack of money or time.

So fuck? If that's what people enjoy then why not? Productivity is a fucking joke these days anyway unless you're a machine operative. The vast majority of the services industry is just moving numbers around columns of a ledger. Once you realise this there is little enjoyment to be taken from working. And if the work doesn't make anything then it doesn't really need doing, or could be done just as well automated. So when you consider we have low satisfaction jobs that don't need the manpower assigned them, you'd be crazy to support the continuation of the system. Jesus fuck nobody asked to be born into a system of servitude. And don't give me this 'best time in human history to be alive' bullshit either. If you accept the current system as the best we can do you're a miserable person. Why shouldn;t we eliminate most of the work that we can? Just cause you've had to work for what you have you want others to? Get fucked.

ARBEIT

MACHT

FREI

>kek ok

>the Muslim share of the population increased from 4.1% in 1990 to 6% in 2010 and will continue to increase over the next 40 years, reaching 10% in 2050.

We have the hardware to do complete physical simulation of human body before 2030

You were doing so well mate, don't go down that road of stupid pictures.

Though I'd be tired of trying to explain the issues a minimum wage causes when it comes to automation for the hundredth time like you are now too desu

Read You don't understand how cheap it is to automate compared to a human worker. Unless minimum wage decreases to $1 an hour then automation is just going to increase and increase.
How can you not understand this? But muh Friedmann, but muh minimum wage.

Just sounds like you're projecting your own instability.

I'm a scrounger and I'm peaceful, well spoken, law abiding, critical and well read.

Nogs across the street from me work full time but regularly have the police out.

dude, we cant even get iter started until then. what makes you think we can do something that is thousand times more complicated. you sound like some monk in the middelages who says: "yeah I can totally fly with those rad wings I built" before falling to his death.

>>First of all, there would be no automation needed if there was no minimum wage.

Sometimes I type too quick, and I say things too quick. Please see It explains better what I meant

>cringe. Another teen who read a economics book

Not an argument
>Implying book-reading is negative

>let's do like boomers and increase tax and take huge amount on debt on the next generation's back so we can do jack shit and get paid by the state
I want a family, so go fuck yourself you marxist piece of shit.

if i got ubi i wouldn't ever choose to work
the economy just lost about £2 million of labour over the course of my working life
good job

Indeed. Although UBI might work if the prices are highly regulated etc, alot of stuff would have to change.
Either way, something needs to change in the future when automation gets better, and more common. When comparing UBI to current welfare system in finland for example, i dont see the problem. Pretty much the same amount of money for people, without the useless bureaucracy and some incentive to do part-time jobs. Right now unemployed people try to avoid working part-time, even if they could.

>what makes you think we can do something that is thousand times more complicated

They said human genome project was impossible which turned out to be complete bullshit once computers got involved

The fantasy

People dont have to work, education is free
People learn to better themselves and people work because they want to better society, artists, scientists etc
A few work other important jobs like Doctors and get to live better than the rest

Reality on the other hand, massive new welfare class
Most likely more crime and people whining

What are horses used for these days? Sports, entertainment, glue, meat. Anything else?

yes but that was probably a mere hardware problem. simulating a brain goes way beyond that.

porn

>prices highly regulated

I see this plan is going to work really well

They already are with our current tax systems lmao

You'd be a minority and would be completely degenerate. It's boring not being productive. But you would still act as a consumer and keep the cogs of the economy spinning. Or what happened to horses could happen and people who do nothing that contributes will be killed off/left to die.
The other thing is that if that job is already being done and you spend the £2 million you were given then it still works.

Then why does anyone make over minimum wage including the majority of fast-food workers?
This was seen as the result of "Scandinavian Socialism" before "muh shitskin immigration" even happened.
iea.org.uk/publications/research/scandinavian-unexceptionalism-culture-markets-and-the-failure-of-third-way-soc

Does this prove socialists right? Won't government have to increase massively in scope if literally all jobs are gone?

>simulating a brain goes way beyond that.

Not if you simulate the physics and chemistry instead of trying to engineer rules for larger blocks

It also creates a huge leftist voter lobby who have to vote for the left to get their monthly check. It's literally paying for votes.

It won't these idiots just think money is wealth and not the modicum of exchange for value that it actually is.

This same fundamental ignorance of what money is is why Zimbabwe has 100 trillion dollar bills

People don't seem to understand that it won't be manual labour jobs that go first thanks to automation; it will be fucktons of white collar jobs.

Think of it from a skills perspective: what are machines good at and what are they bad at? They're good at automated heavy lifting and intricate work so long as it's rote and 'on rails' but are bad at anything that requires any level of dexterity. That's why we can build a machine that can patrol warehouse aisles but why we're decades off creating one that can perform surgery. What are machines better at doing than humans? Anything involving calculation. Anything involving logical and rote flow chart work. Anything that involves 'box ticking'.

Pedro at the end of the street who carries bricks up and down ladders for a living is probably going to be fine but if you're an accountant or and analyst in a bank, you're neck is already on the block. It's not the 'poor' who need to be worried - it's the middle class.

Mate here in the Netherlands we have a similar system and I can see exactly well the transgenic effect of the welfare state.

I got one question for basic income supporters.
Who the fuck is going to pay for it?

>just do it
I dont think you can really grasp the scope of what you are proposing

Stupid auto correct, I meant to say dysgenic and not transgenic.

Human life has more intrinsic value than a horse on average across the world but the horse example doesn't bode that well for the future.
What is the value of human life if robots can do everything we can and more? A scary thought.
Friendship? Family? But is that enough for the elites to keep the plebs alive?
Maybe everyone will just be plugged into the internet 24/7 matrix style whilst robots provide nutrient gloop and electricity.

>it's completely degenerate to not spend your entire life earning money to send on excess
i would be productive, productivity doesn't only come in the form of employment
me spending my government handouts would be worse for the economy than simply not taxing another person to give the money to me in the first place
you'd kill everyone who didn't want to work? then why do you need basic income in the first place? it's """goal""" is to stop people who don't work from dying

basic income is a subsidisation of weakness and a tax on strength
great way to run a country

I see that you're not saying that its no impossible

just that you perceive the workload as immense

:)

>Who the fuck is going to pay for it?
>Duh 1% who also receive this basic income stoopid

surgery assisting robots exist since the 90s bro

CPAs aren't on the block yet. Bookkeepers and data entry clerks are. There are too many regulations right now to replace work that requires CPAs. The Big 4 accounting firms (EY, Deloitte, KPMG, PwC) have too much power right now to put themselves out of work.

Theoretically it will give people some safety net so they can do non profitable work which is still beneficial to the community.

Finland has almost 20% unemployment rate right now. If we moved to UBI right now there would be no loss since we already have 20% of the potential workforce on benefits. No one is guaranteed to work in the next 15 years anyway. The loss would be minimal because the income bounces back to the government budget through high taxation.

What's the factual gain; government secures their future as people would be too complacent to overthrow the system. No risk.

Maybe creating a load of NEETS via automation and living wage who don't reproduce is a way to reduce the population to sustainable levels.

All basic income thread should have start with calculation how big UBI can OP country afford. It should be mandatory. OP do your job.

Do the math and you'll see its not enough.
Not even tax money now alone is enough to support our welfare state, we're still running budget deficits and while 700.000 people out of our 17 million population is getting monthly welfare check.

It's simply monetary impossible. It's trying to create wealth out of thin air. Leftists don't seem to understand money has no intrinsic value, it's merely a reflection of the market. You can't just make more of it without negative effects. Hyperinflation destroys a country.

Already though analysts are a dying breed in investment banks. The average wage for even top analysts is crap. The money now has shifted almost entirely to the brokers. Although this is not just due to automation.

Yes, but none of them are putting surgeons out of a job.

I agree but once they get together and figure out a standardised data entry accountancy system that machines can read and interpret, there are going to be thousands of Big4 jobs immediately rendered obsolete.

>No risk.
what the fuck?

your economy is already fucked
20% employment?
wow what do we do
let's give people enough money so that they don't need to work if they don't want to
yeah that'll get the old dollars flowing

>then who is doing the coding?
self writing code. It's not that far away.

>this are the same people that call me a economic illiterate
lel

If I was given free money, I would not even attempt to work.

See
>We already have cancer and gotten used to it a little more won't hurt

>self writing code. It's not that far away.

No go around your house and try to find goods made by automation. Most of them "made in china" in sweatshops.
>muh automation

DELJETE THIS

This.
>The Government will pay for everything you ever need
>So don't you DARE oppose the Government on anything

What do you get when you cross a docile people with a Government of unlimited powers?

A ticking time bomb.

Just look at blacks in America. Perfect example of the dysgenic effect of welfare.

Look at blacks in this video and compare it to now.

youtube.com/watch?v=W0NcUjsMrWo

I was being ironic I know that the value just simply doesn't exist and the only way to do this is to print fancy paper that doesn't actually represent any value

>will allow society to pursue the work it really believes in

The sheer stupidity of this statement makes me think these people don't earnestly believe this shit.

We already have the cyberpunk future. The fantastically wealthy and the miserably poor. There is no middle-ground anymore. Within fifty years we'll live in a world of artists and masters -- the rest of us won't even be useful as slaves.

The people would ask for more gibs every year and the system would prove unsustainable.

Alternate angle for this thread: What to do with all the workers once their jobs have been automated? How would you create jobs for them so that they can earn their wage?

>will allow society to pursue the work it really believes in
HAHAHAHAAHA. It's literally Star Trek tier utopianism.

Every area in engineering conquered by machines will never be retaken by humans, its a one way street

Antenna and chip architecture optimization are just first steps

Massive foreign wars to reduce population both home and abroad (the third world).

There is no crisis.

It truly is a goddamn shame what Democrats did to blacks in this country to create voting plantations.

Not even slavery was as catastrophically effective at destroying the black family(which if you know anything about crime studies the number one strongest correlation to becoming a criminal is being raised in a broken or abusive home which is within margin of error for all races) as welfare has been.

Do you think STEM master race is susceptible to automation too?

One day in the future when automation really takes off they will invent some kind of automated "coffee machine" and all starbucks baristas will be out of a job!! This is scary u guise.

>The fantastically wealthy and the miserably poor.
The poor of today have significantly more than the middle class did 100 years ago

Same thing the farmers did after the industrial revolution, got new jobs because technology opened up entirely new sectors.

None of these are of any use to the plebs class who can't afford to make use of them.

>we're decades off creating one that can perform surgery
lol

>Who the fuck is going to pay for it?
The state

Yes, and those chinks compete by being paid pennies per hour, just like I said.

That isn't enough to survive on in a 1st world country.

why are there so many silicon valley types who promote this idea

Ironically one of the commonly proposed tests for artificial intelligence, is the ability to make a pot of coffee. Speaking of AI, the ending of Ex Machina was so fucking disappointing. I was hoping for a "no john you are the robot"

>The state
you mean the people?

Irrelevant due to the increase in wealth by the very wealthy.

The middle class as you know it no longer exists. Social and economic conditions killed it.

Literal communism.

>"i-it will work this time, I swear! "

If you completely cut off all forms of immigration it MIGHT work.

Maybe.

you mean the taxpayers?

Because most people in silicon valley are one worldists who want all the working class proles under their thumb. What better way to enslave people than making them dependent on the state for survival?

>The state
>Creates value
Pick one

I think it might be great because of how many gibs we have in France. Get basic income and many nigs will see their income divided by 2 or 3 at least

The only downside might be inflation but i'm no economist so I could be wrong

bro, you need to get out of Cred Forums once in a while. It's bad for you

>taking away the truest source of ambition
>now with that pesky ambition out of the way we can be more productive
at best this is just going to make more neets.

you mean nobody?

You already have a welfare state and you think more of it would be a good idea? Why do you think Muslims come to Europe in the first place? HANDOUTS

>Irrelevant due to the increase in wealth by the very wealthy
Id say it is extremely relevant.
You're one of those people in those studies that show people would rather make less so long as their boss doesn't make significantly more than them

It is an insane position of pure envy

Without a welfare state and a minimum wage, automation will be a slower process.

This allows more time for individuals to find new ways to make money.

New technologies create new jobs. The internet and computers created millions and millions of extra jobs for people.

During this transition period of 50 to 100 years or so, the older generations will die off and the new tech savvy generations will be the workforce, they are the ones who can adapt perfectly the to the new environment.

me for example, I make my money with YouTube, Cryptocurrency (bitcoin) trading, and a low wage part time job. I hope to end my job completely within a year or 2 so that I am not dependent on the outdated job structure.

Of course, the new generations need to be financially educated in public schools, we have a severe lack of financial education.

Of course this is only the case if the minimum wage is abolished and the welfare state also, other wise the automation process will come hastened and there will be a strong period of crisis and unemployment, because the older generations can't adapt and millions of third worlders will come into these countries for gibs.

>1% (which is about 423 people in the US)
>.01*321,420,000=423
wut

>The middle class as you know it no longer exists
Also forgot this nice tidbit
It is because more and more people are moving into the upper class you can look at IRS income data which clearly shows this

>Do you think STEM master race is susceptible to automation too?
It's THE most susceptible.

no, the state. Saying shit like "state is the people" is a naive slogan. I specifically said "the state" would pay for it.

>>The state
>>Creates value
yes

This. All these pseudo-communist ideas rely on, or pretend, that human nature is not a factor. Capitalism works because it takes the selfishness that is innate in all living beings, and allows it benefit society as a whole. It's not perfect but it works.

If you guys hate the idea of welfare and basic income so badly, what's your solution to the inevitable massive unemployment that's going to happen in the near future as a result of automation of virtually all industry?

You love posting about how minimum wage fast food workers are going to be replaced by robots before they're given $15 an hour, but what are those workers going to do? They don't just disappear once they lose their jobs.

You should all know that setting up a society where there are large and growing numbers of people who are poor and unable to find gainful employment is a good way to set the stage for some manner of violent revolution.

So given that automation is only going to increase and more people are going to be out of work, what's your solution? Please spare me edgy shit like "lol just kill em all they're worthless anyway".

because basic income will replace them.
Say you have 800 euros with basic income, it's way fucking less than what nigs get for having shitload of kids and you know, being nigs.

I'm guessing that working people with have a tax cut, which is good too.

What to do with all the unemployed?

Communism.

When everyone in a country has the same amount of money, the price of goods and services have to increase because there isn't an unlimited amount of resources. The price system is rationing of goods and services because we don't have unlimited time or resources.

>country a taxes people who do a lot of things and give everybody in the country free stuff
>useless people from all other countries go to country a
>productive people from country a go to other countries
wow it's like people follow incentive

universal inflation wouldn't necessarily happen unless the money was printed
without printed money, only low-cost goods would see a price increase, and high-cost goods would fall in price
but it's pretty obvious that gubmints would just print money to fund this, or sell bonds

I just call it how I see it.

Money is power and both just happen to be densely concentrated. In the end it's all about control.

>the state

You don't understand what communism is shart. A living wage economy does not mean everyone is equal, or that there is a one party state. It simply means there will be a living wage in an attempt to cultivate continued growth only in non automated sectors.

>Without a welfare state and a minimum wage, automation will be a slower process.
>IF we become poor and work more for less, then we will be able to work for lounger!!!

Just stfu looney. I want automation to come faster

>yes
No
Enjoy your trillion dollar bills that can't buy a loaf of bread.
These idiotic ideas have been tried based around this fundamental ignorance of what money is and ut has resulted in the same thing every single time

>what's your solution to the inevitable massive unemployment that's going to happen in the near future as a result of automation of virtually all industry?
You should only get welfare if you give up your ability to have kids.

Trades like carpentry or plumbing won't be automated until we develop a true strong AI. Until a robot can walk into a residence or an apartment building, look at it, and make an educated decision on how best to wire or pipe the building, something like that can't be automated. And what I described above requires a level of artificial intelligence that would probably result in the singularity, forget about our jobs being gone, humans will be gone.

You're a sick person. That means you want massive unemployment and crisis.

Redistribution of wealth is the core tenant of Communism.

Yeah but making the jump from the farm to the manufacturing line was a lot easier.

What does a shelf-stacker or checkout operator do when they get made redundant in 20xx? Those are entry-level, low-skill positions today - what exactly will be the entry-level, low-skill positions of 20xx? You can't pluck someone out from stacking shelves to becoming an automation/software engineer; it's just not realistic.

>This allows more time for individuals to find new ways to make money.

Will not work because of taxes and service economy being a literal meme without wealth creation

no such thing as perpetual motion machine

NEGATIVE
INCOME
TAX

ya cunts

ie you get payed extra for working in the first place

I thought it was abolition of classes?

Historical precedent says otherwise.

May I remind you that there was no minimum wage or welfare state of any kind during the Industrial Revolution?

The industrial revolution was NOT a slow process and directly led to violent revolution in several countries.

>Enjoy your trillion dollar bills that can't buy a loaf of bread.
>hurr durr ubi will bring massive inflation

source?

>These idiotic ideas have been tried
No they didn't. Stop making shit up. The ubi attempts (in micro scale) have been sucessfull.

I don't understand your hard on for sterilizing people who are on welfare. Pretty much everyone is on welfare once in his life.

Aren't like half of white population in USA in welfare?

>>we're decades off creating one that can perform surgery
>lol

Current image processing is nowhere near sophisticated enough to identify blood vessels with the degree of accuracy needed to perform major surgery. And that's before we get into the dexterity needed. If you think we're going to have a machine that can perform kidney removals (for example) in the next few years, you're off your head.

>I just call it how I see it
Then you're ignorant of the numbers.
More people exist in the upper class than ever before and youre quite literally arguing that being poorer for all is better than everyone becoming wealthier.
You're so caught up in abstract brackets that you're not looking at the numbers regarding actual people

>You can't pluck someone out from stacking shelves to becoming an automation/software engineer; it's just not realistic.
Well yeah, obviously. I'm not implying the state will just move them to new jobs. They will find new jobs though, since they don't want to starve. Innovation will open up new jobs as well.

nooooo
but that would incentivize working
AND WE DONT WANT THAT DO WE???

but srsly it's retarded

yup that sound about right

Bullshit, stalin owned everything and wealth concentration was at its absolute maximium zenith

You must have meant theft

That's the purpose of the wealth redistribution, it just doesn't and will never work.

EAT SHOES BOURGEOISIE

>machines now do all the jobs
>much more value created with fewer labourers required
>owners of factories making record profits while mass of pleb is unemployed

Gee what to do?

With growing income disparity it seems the future will go one of a few ways. Full gommie revolution (unlikely). neo-fudualism (possibly). Basic income (best of the three). And before you ask 'why is disparity bad', it will get to the stage where nobody can afford the trinkets the capitalists produce. Then what?

You can't just keep growing on an finite earth,
are you actually retarded?

>Redistribution of wealth is the core tenant of Communism.

lol, literally fox news propaganda. Read up a little of what communism is.

>Current image processing is nowhere near sophisticated enough to identify blood vessels with the degree of accuracy needed to perform major surgery.
lol

It's the same as any welfare state or quasi-socialist system, they pay lip service to the proles while hoarding all the money worse than any Czar.

>source
I posted the results of Zimbabwe following these insane ideas.
Your a trip fag we all know how you react to information that utterly BTFO you and that is ignore it endlessly.
>No they didn't. Stop making shit up. The ubi attempts (in micro scale) have been sucessfull
The mouse utopia experiment was such a stunning example of success

In my eyes the living wage would be just that. Enough for you to survive on a basic diet with only a fraction being able to be spent on non essentials.There is still an incentive to work and make money but people have more comfort in knowing they aren't going to starve to death. I think too many people envision this as a total gibs me dat fest were they can be NEETs 24/7. Computers would not be on the essential list. You would need a job to afford one.

Exactly, communism is nothing more then state-mafia, a complete monopoly on everything, a complete concentration of wealth, the highest amount of inequality possible. Who do you think funded the Bolshevists?

There's what Communism says it is, then there is what Communism is in practice.

Yeah we should definitely do this basic income thing. I'll be able to pursue the work I really believe in, sleeping, jerking off, and playing video games.

>That's the purpose of the wealth redistribution
no you fucking retard. Wealth distribution is to making the line between classes thinner. Wealth redistribution, by it's own definition, relies on class difference.

The whole idea is based upon Keynesianism, or the idea that Say's law is broken and that consumption (and not savings) drive up investments and therefore the economy.

The logic goes like this: if you give someone $200 bucks and they have nothing, they're more prone to spending than someone who already has much, and by spending they create incentives for companies that already operate to expand their businesses and invest, because they see more demand is happening.

There's two problems with this reasoning:

The first, is, where did those bucks came from? Either it comes from taxes or inflation, so you either tax the rich (because if you tax everyone equally to pay the bill of this expense it'll lead to no effect) or you tax everyone through expanding your monetary base, which creates stagflation scenarios where no one invests because the government can't offer a stable currency to allow planning by many enterpreneurs. This is known as the broken window fallacy.

The second problem is: you don't know if those people are more likely to spend anyways. Even though you can certainly argue that people with more moneys will most likely let their money in a bank or buy stocks for "investment" and that's evil somehow, this money is also likely to get back into people through cheaper loans (because savings goes up, and therefore interest goes down) or literally jobs because companies get more investment money.

Subsides creates stupidly worthless sods
T. Guy who works with the most wealthy Indian reservation

>lol, literally fox news propaganda. Read up a little of what communism is.
Every Communist writer has quite literally states that don't go into full retard"dats not bure gommunism" whole denying the work of Communist

I have no problem with this so long as the basic income is a starvation wage which still insentivises people to seek other forms of income.

Removing all current welfare surrendering to fund this would save money too

>the most wealthy Indian reservation

So they can afford to drink EVERY day?

Who is Jeff Bezos? Of course I am naturally implying we will colonize the solar system, and some of the smartest business people agree with me. We will mine asteroids, other planets, etc. There will be a massive interplanetary free market system.

>>owners of factories making record profits while mass of pleb is unemployed

They can´t make profit if the people are unemployed, because there would be no consumer base, so it´s in their natural benefit to employ people.

>inb4 basic income
Not possible, not a solution, as I have explained previously.

>Communism is in practice.

>Communism in 20 years was a slogan put forth by Nikita Khrushchev at the 22nd Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in 1961.

>In his speech, Khrushchev promised that communism will be built "in the main" by 1980. His phrase "The current generation of Soviet people will live under communism" was the final phrase of the new Program of the CPSU adopted at the congress.

>The latter political slogan is attributed to Kremlin speechwriter Elizar Kuskov (Eлизap Кycкoв), who allegedly quipped "this slogan will survive centuries".

What would these practical examples be exactly?

Nigger they drink every hour and still have more cash than you or i

>I posted the results of Zimbabwe
>of zimbabwe

You answered yourself you fucking retard

>following these insane ideas.
Zimbabwe had a UBI?

>The mouse utopia experiment was such a stunning example of success
>mouse utopia

Are you unintentionall mocking yourself? Are you using a 50's "study" about mice as a argument against UBI?

Jesus Christ, we are being raided by teens. Fucking elections...

>You can't just keep growing on an finite earth,
>are you actually retarded?
u need to lookup how banks operate and how they create inflation.

protip: banks literally *create* money. like, they might as well be a fucking printing press. they literally create cash.

The railing/porches in the background of this photo are beautiful. What style/country of architecture is this? please?

i want to have coffee on that every morning with my neighbors and die there

>Every Communist writer has quite literally states that don't go into full retard"dats not bure gommunism" whole denying the work of Communist
such as? And where did those """"""""""""""""communist writers"""""""""""""""""""" wrote that?

As you rightly should.

It's a retarded idea, 1) because it never works and 2) we are moving to decentralized, distributed manufacturing.

Yes automation is going to roll out, you want a piece, get out there and take it. No one is obligated to my productivity.

This talk of wages is fucking stupid anyway, it's really purchasing power of a $1 that fucking matters.

Giving me more money by devaluing the total supply didn't fucking help.

No Free Lunches

The idea that nobody will be able to afford anything due to automation is ridiculous. The sole effect of automation will be that it costs fewer resources to make any given product. If it, as is claimed, becomes impossible for most people to buy things in a post-automated world (which is also a claim that automation will lower GDP), then people who employ automation will make zero profits. All money will, according to the theory, just cease to circulate.
Also, if you grant the assumption that it's terrible to increase productivity by aiming to lower work hours, it's a good idea to destroy all machines we have now and employ everybody to dig holes and fill them in, because total hours worked is what gives money to workers.

In reality, if everything is automated, the cost of production will be so ridiculously cheap that the cost of a final product will be virtually nil.
Resource extraction will cost nothing. Manufacturing will cost nothing. Services will cost nothing. Manufacturing other machines to provide all of this productivity will cost nothing. People would still be useful when a new market opens up. Automation won't just pop into existence to fill the void, it will have to be created to fit.

Some sort of ancient Indian magic no doubt

Class differences in a free society exist because people have different abilities which result in different outcomes which triggers leftist because they hate equality they want equity which has resulted in every Communist genocide in history.
You want government to quite literally change things it cannot ever do redressing the actions of the very cosmos themselves. It is Insanity

youtu.be/WIv4L9M1ECU

Money is not a real thing though.
You can't just print money and call that "growth",
nothing happened irl.

I've done this to you several times you denying it won't change this it just makes you a faggot

If the jobs are being doing by robots why employ humans? Employ them for the sake of it? That's exactly the same as giving a living wage. Except with the living wage there is incentive to push people into other areas of work rather than getting paid for doing nothing.

Here's my voice to you fucking communists. I will personally kill you if you try to infringe on my property and rights, come try and take it you fuckers. Previously you took the property of non-violent unarmed people, the cowards you are, but this time the population is armed. God I hate the fucking reds, makes my bloodboil, fucking parasites.

>They can´t make profit if the people are unemployed, because there would be no consumer base, so it´s in their natural benefit to employ people.
Micro vs macro. A consumer base represents people having money to spend on the scale of the overall economy. A single company's employees aren't going to matter for that unless it's big enough to effectively be a corporate government. And if they're not big enough to influence the economy like that, companies aren't going to hire unnecessary people.

>Class differences in a free society exist because people have different abilities
Yeah, i'm sure Paris Hilton is 10 times as smarter as everyone in Cred Forums.

>Communist genocide in history.
like?

>increase productivity
this will work, in reverse.
why would I work hard if I wont recieve a reward?

i bet you think that sports stars are paid too much

>I've done this to you several times you denying it won't change this it just makes you a faggot
so you don't have any? Where you just caught lying and are now damaging controlling? Why are Cred Forumstards always so sad?

Get BTFO some more

>inb4 trip insults or flag insults

Or you could just name those communist writers and their writings and destroy me

It's just a >muh fee fee shit. Kind of a stockholm syndrome

Maybe it'd create a labour shortage so then employers have to pay more to get people to actually start working again?

Pls stop le minimum wage. Ur making me angwy. Come and get me.
>t.Neckbeard

No one is trying to take what your own you retard. They are trying to debate what the best approach to automation is. Approaches that aren't completely brain dead like your notion that having no minimum wages prevents automation.

Because you are going to be able to make mixtapes all day and write fanfiction and do all sorts of creative art you wouldn't otherwise be able to pursue, and that's going to stimulate the economy.

>projecting this hard

>your notion that having no minimum wages prevents automation.
It doesn't prevent it, but it it keeps the progress on a natural, non-inflated, timescale, allowing people to adapt to it.

>Hyperinflation might be the answer to society's Productivity Crisis

>universal basic income

See: turn the entire middle/working class into a rainbow coalition of googles dependent on the state within 2-3 generations.

it's literally true that a lower minimum wage will slow the progress of automation

No you are not, the majority is going to be lazy and do nothing, have you ever seen the life of a NEET?

>There's people who unironically believe the kikes are going to "share the wealth" once it becomes cheaper to replace all of the workers with humans.

Don't worry goys. It will be cheaper to have you caged up and working for nothing more than the basic necessities of survival than it will be to maintain a fully automated workforce. There will be a job for everybody. You just won't be allowed to leave.

You can hide "innawoods", but that will be trespassing. And trespassers will be shot on sight.

Didnt Finland get rid off all welfare and replaced it with a basic income this year?

How did it go finnbros?

>allowing people to adapt to it.
This is what we are discussing. How are we going to adapt to it?

UBI is the best one i've heard so far.

What is your idea?

What is inflation regulation?

Nobody does anything without incentive.

Why are commies so fucking delusional.

ERm ***Replace all the workers with robots***

source?

>have you ever seen the life of a NEET?
The saddest existence possible. Most of the people don't enjoy being neets.

>are going to "share the wealth"
They will have to. Hungry people are dangerous

see

Even if it is absolutely shit now, the effects of a policy like this won't be fully evident for at least a couple of decades.

Thats not happening.

They watered down the proposal as to be completely useless and limited the extent to a group of a thousand people

Yes, good goy. The only incentive is money.

Do whatever I tell you and you can have this money. It's super valuable and magical. It's whatever you want it to be*.

*There is no guarantee on the past, future or present value of money that is held by goyim.

>Hungry people are dangerous

Nah they get tired real quick

...

>laws of economics

I don't need to provide some study. If you accept that it's true that a minimum wage of $5000 per hour will increase the rate of automation, you must also accept that it's true that decreasing the minimum wage, and thus making labour less costly, will lower incentive to try to cut costs in the department of labour.

A lower wage means that human labour is cheaper, thus there is less incentive for companies to automate the labour.

Automation can't come quick enough.

No, you are basing your ideas that there will be demand for high skill jobs, which are some of the first that will be automated. There will simply be no jobs available. Lawyer work nowadays is highly automatized. stock trading the same.

not an argument

>free money for lazy people is the answer to productivity issues

Marxists are literally retarded

>There will simply be no jobs available.
That's what leftists always say with new technologies. Such an idiotic statement.

If you dont know how to read a watch thats exactly what happens....

consultants are usually brought in to fill a gap in labor / knowlege. Sometimes a consultant solution is acceptable because you need something done fast and dont have the time to wait to train someone to do a certain job.

Either that or something you dont know how to do and/or are to stupid to do.

>Hungry people are dangerous
They trained you faggots with their bible for generations to worship written word. To the point that people actually unironically believe that written word is powerful
>muh constitution
>muh money
>muh laws
None of them are shit. But they all tell you to pay the Jew, and guess what? you pay the Jew.

In fact you worship authority so much, you chastise people who refuse to pay the Jew.

The Jews won. Because as soon as you try to run them out of town,
>muh constitution
will come and put a bullet in your head.

The Jews won't even need to spill a single drop of blood themselves.

The idea is that it provides a safety net (in replacement to welfare programs currently in place) while eliminating the disincentives to work that those programs create (welfare cliffs). So the labor market would be able to operate without many of the regulations currently in place (e.g. minimum wage) that interfere with free price-setting directing labor to what people actually value.

furck yea serfdom

the elite will take care of us like pets out of the goodness of their hearts even though they have yearned to kill off the dregs of humanity for years and were only held back by needing a workforce which is now done by robotics. The only power we have we will give up because we our leftie fags and it feels right shitlord. Keep progressing even if it's off a cliff!

To be honest, UBI would probably be the best solution to the neet problem.

Give them their allowance that allows them to survive while watching anime, playing vidya, and fapping to their VR waifus. They will stay at home, happy in their little bubbles, while people with ambition will go out into the world and make money and make families, while the neets remain childless, but contented with miku-chan.

A eugenics program in which undesirables have a happy (from their perspective) life while they are removed from the genepool entirely by their own choice.

The future, gentlemen.

>I don't need to provide some study
>i don't need to source my claims

/thread

> If you accept that it's true that a minimum wage of $5000 per hour will increase the rate of automation, you must also accept that it's true that decreasing the minimum wage, and thus making labour less costly
non-sequitor

Ok, but what to do once automation hits hard?

Your little comic says it all; Jewery is the problem. not the idea of basic income itself.

Perhaps there might be some ulterior motives behind non-NEETs supporting UBI

really makes you think

>Ok, but what to do once automation hits hard?
If there was no minimum wage, it would never hit hard. It would be a longer, gradual process, allowing the new, tech-savvy generations to adapt.

holy shit you're literally retarded
do you want me to find some study about fundamental truths?
what about the notion that rape is non-consensual? (since it is by definition)
man you fucking slave to graphs holy shit
literally not a non-sequitur either
can you even use the mound of meat inside your skull

relative cost of labour goes up, people looking to cut costs will invest more in alternate forms of production
people will find cheap things
people want cheap things
holy shit
do you deny that people actually want things to be cheap????
man fuck this thread i'm triggered

It's the abolition of private property.

If corporations own all the property and work with the government (enforcers) there is no difference. The populace don't own anything.

By accepting free tokens to spend on THEIR products/properties you are just trapped in this communist/corporatist system. "The 1%" are the "custodians" of all property as if they were commissars. You live with what they decide to do. The films/TV shows they make. The bends in their bananas (because the competition don't conform to their arbitrary selection process, negotiated with government crooks). The culture/society/economy they create around you.

"Politics" is downstream from social engineering.

>it's another episode of "my ideology will work if you just change the fundamentals of human behaviour"

Dude you dont know wtf you are talking about. Automation rarely replaces minimum wage workers, it wouldnt be worth it. Automation generally replaces $15-$25/ hr factory workers.

I already get $2000 of NEETBUX, and this looks like the kind of disaster that could ruin my good thing.

Fuck you commies stop spreading it around or the well will run dry!

>It would be a longer, gradual process

You keep saying this, but you have yet to explain why. I'm genuinely curious as to how you came to this conclusion, since as I pointed out before, what you are describing is a second industrial revolution, and the Industrial Revolution was anything but gentle/

If the last 200-300 years have shown us anything its that new technology's effect on wealth creation is exponential, not linear.

>so you don't have any? Where you just caught lying and are now damaging controlling? Why are Cred Forumstards always so sad?
Why should I repeatedly post the sake Communist writtings clearly saying what you claim they don't when yiu just repeatedly ignore them?
> Or you could just name those communist writers and their writings and destroy me
No you being a tripfag just lets everyone know who you are and be able to see patterns in your posting
Whuch is to deny and ignore and forget everything that blows you out and then go on the spew the same shit the jext day even innthe same thread conversation line.

Well if that's the case, this whole basic income nonsense shouldn't even be discussed.

Not exactly,
basic income doesn't work if you take the riches money.
Fuck, it doesn't even work if you involve money at all, really.
First thing you need is to provide everyone with shelter. A fucking shipping container home will do. Not provided by the rich, provided by those unemployed.
Then, all facilities. Water, electricity, and nothing else yet.
At this point, use the surplus workers to run factories making basic foodstuff. Soylent, modern meaning. Some slop that has all a persons nutritional needs.
Those who don't work get the slop, those who make the slop get the slop but also cakes, that they also make.
Apply to farmers, transport, engineers, all that shit.
All this is is a safeguard for those who fall through the cracks of capitalism, capitalism is still able and encouraged to work on top of this, and would make up perhaps 98% of the workforce still. This is just a safety net at the bottom of the country.

nah, i just think theyll move to northern ireland

>He has unironically fallen for the "human nature" trick of the Jews.

If you put two men in a cell together with a meal in the middle, they will share it together.

If you put a man and a Jew in a cell together with a meal the Jew will race to the meal, claim it is his, because he got to it first, but offer you the crumbs when he is done eating (as long as you do something for him).

But of course you aren't in a cell. The Jew is free to retreat, wait until he can find enough useful idiots, and then use them as pawns to hold you down for him.

You'll never see the Jew, and you'll never blame the Jew. And nothing in this world will ever get better.

Look at what the Jews did to Africa, and the middle east. And walked away without any blame.

>Literally true

Thanks for the amazing evidence. Must have nothing to do with technological advancement and high developmental costs right? Fact is automation is a new thing and is only gradually being integrated. To test the market and because prototypes are just that. No matter how much people wanted self driving cars they couldn't make them come more quickly than they are. New laws and regulations are required. Changes to insurance et cetera. There is loads of money in technological growth, but it can only come so quickly.

>basic income
>to pursue the work it really believes in

Pick one. You cannot have both.

If they're given a free ride, they will NOT work. It'll be the welfare mentality taken to a whole new level.

>people rely completely on the government for gibs and stop working, sell drugs on the side or whatever for extra

what could go wrong

Again, increasing GDP does not mean increasing wages.

Wouldn't it be more preferable if the GDP shrunk, but the rich made less money while the bottom 99% made higher wages?

I don't understand this basic income thing.

Basically what they do is they take your money, then they give it back to you..? Why not just eliminate welfare alltogether?

Enjoy extinction then because you can't outcompete a machine

unless you believe that the speed of automation is entirely uncorrelated with how much investment is put unto the field then you unequivocally agree with me

Trump got his start building apartments for plebs in the Bronx or was it Queens

become the machine

basically it makes everyone beg like hobos

>If you put two men in a cell together with a meal in the middle, they will share it together.
Ha.
That depends entirely on how hungry they are.

but i am not rich like george soros

>He unironically thinks that transhumanism will be available to the goyim

True, but they don't really add anything to the economy. Just another layer to give the impression of a job rather than producing something valuable.

I have said it before. No minimum wage is a lower cost for human labor, thus less incentive to stimulate innovation in automation.

>do you deny that people actually want things to be cheap????
Considering most all leftist support damn newr everything one can think of to make everything more expensive id say yes he does.

So having endured the hell that was highschool, and actually studying whilst my "peers" spent time doing drugs, trying to kill me, or getting each other pregnant before sixteen, before I went to university to attain a good degree that allowed me to get my current, well paid job:

Now I'm expected to happily give up more of my hard earned cash to fund the disgusting lifestyles of those who not only made a choice to be shit, but actually tried to drag me down to their level too?

Fuck that, when robots take over all the shit jobs they can rot and starve for all I care.

how exactly do consultants not do productive things?
are they paid to be unproductive or something?
do businesses employ them with the aim of losing money, or have they just not learnt?

>They can´t make profit if the people are unemployed

agreed. Or at least if people have no disposable income.

>so it´s in their natural benefit to employ people.

So essentially you're suggesting work programs? Cause if these people are put out of a job by robots, and 'these people' are generally those without much in the way of training or qualification. At its most basic you're a proponent of the poor living in servitude to the people who've made it.

>Not possible, not a solution, as I have explained previously.

I'm sure we've been here before you and I.

Tiu can see automation being implemented artificially fast already in places that have increased min wage where cashiers are being replaced with ordering screens if the business can afford them or firing employees or going out of business if they cant

>What will happen to displaced workers? How will mass unemployment hurt our increasingly globalized economy?
Look into the Venus Project, it's the most viable option I've found for a model of the future.

I think it is more likely that the Soros types will simply exterminate the dependents rather than share the wealth. When they no longer need the majority of laborers and consumers, they will do away with them.

I would support it, if we stop immigration. Otherwise shitskins will took it from us.

> get basic income
> explain to citizens that more migrants mean lower ubi
> close borders

But that makes no sense. Why would you want to slow down innovations that allow you to reduce your operating costs?

i can't imagine energy ever being less expensive than food, so even though people are less productive than automation, surely people would be able to generate energy enough to sustain themselves

Robots don't take over shit jobs though, that's the point.
The first thing that will get automated will be management and office jobs because it just requires software. It's already happening. Companies have gradually been cannibalizing all of their middle management positions.

Companies used to have teams of bookkeepers, now they have T. Individual Bookkeeper.

Precision physical tasks on assembly lines will be the last because they require extremely sophisticated robotics. And the people who do it don't get paid a hell of a lot for it to begin with.

Globalism has pretty much allowed most of that to be outsourced anyway.

Because the innovation is artificially propped up, and not a result of the real market value of human labour. Sure, it could lead to great innovation in a short amount of time, but it means that there will be massive unemployment, crisis and probably civil war. It'd be saying that both world war 1 and world war 2 were worth it because they lead to gigantic leaps in science and technology.

You fags dont even realize that the automation revolution is already happening and the middle class is getting btfo because of it. This is the reason we have such extreme candidates this election cycle. Everyone laments the decline of American manufacturing. But our industrial output is higher than ever and growing. its not that we dont make stuff anymore in the US, its just that our manufacturing work force is being replaced by automation. Those good, medium-income manufacturing jobs were the life blood of the middle class. They Have been replaced mostly by shitty, low pay service jobs. And many have simply left the work force because there are not enough good jobs out there.

And we have driverless cars just around the corner and countless other advances coming. Within 30 years, practically all unskilled and low skilled labor will be automated as well as much higher skill work. This should be a great thing and lead to a huge improvement in productivity and average standard of living. But it is going to increase the level of income inequality in a big way. I think we should be exploring some version of UBI or we are going to have major unrest

I got to meet with the president of the society of actuaries a few months ago, and I'd asked him if he thought the actuarial career could be hurt by automation, and in response he gave me a story similar to yours. They worked in consulting and creating the program that did the work of 20 men let the 18 men that didn't need to look over the program do other work for the company, increasing productivity by allowing them to take on more clients.

Are you really naive enough to think that business gives a shit about the human cost?

They're there to make profit. Long term consequences be damned. Sure, some people might foresee some of the fallout, but they won't do anything about it because if they don't innovate, then someone else will.

There is only one viable solution to this conundrum.

That's the joke. No need to create jobs out of thin air with UBI, unlike now. When you already got 80% of the workforce getting taxed to carry the remaining 20%, you have no risk because the money bounces back to the annual budget.

The UBI grows if the economy prospers. And that's why the 80% keeps working.

I visited a new water bottling factory last year. It was wild and shocking. Every fucking thing was automated. No human forklift drivers. Robot forklifts with lazors. The whole factory prolly employed 10 people while 30 years ago there would have been 200+ workers

> No need to create jobs out of thin air with UBI, unlike now.

So much this. Creating jobs that produce nothing just so you have people to buy your trinkets is like the most stereotypical communist representation of capitalism I can think of.

>tfw agreeing with a wateryjew
Truly, the darkest time.

No.
The answer is gelding all those worthless brown bucks that keep on wit their pump and dump so society doesn't have to pay for their worthless niglets.
THAT'S the answer.

...

>Are you really naive enough to think that business gives a shit about the human cost?
>They're there to make profit. Long term consequences be damned. Sure, some people might foresee some of the fallout, but they won't do anything about it because if they don't innovate, then someone else will.
Yiu just unknowingly agreed with him user
Yes they care about profit which is why if artificial variables are placed upon them by decree of law a business has threeoptions in this particular case.
Eat the cost of automation earlier than they otherwise would have if they can afford it
Fire some employees and the rest take on a much larger work load
Or if the finances simply don't exist for either ahut down

Small business are hit the hardest by minimum wage laws which force these three options and tend to go out of business.

Yes companies will continue to innovate but the minimum wage in this scenario acts to aid massive corporations who can eat these artificial cost in the short term to further consolidate the marketplace.
It is why they lobby for minimum wage increases. But what they aren't taking into account is the massive bubble that is created which will pop and pop extremely dramatically

That is happening everywhere not just places with increased minimum wage. We had that here long before the minimum wage increased. It is simply because it is 8 times cheaper than a human wage. The minimum wage increasing to make it 10 times more cost effective is not going to do much to increase uptake. Diminishing gains. There is already incentive to automate. They are waiting for the tech to catch up.

>the most stereotypical communist representation of capitalism I can think of.
You mean everything Krugman has written

Calculate how much of UBI your country can afford first. What is the budget allocated to welfare and pensions in Finland again? What is population?

...

But UBI isnt a job, its a type of welfare. And its purpose isnt so the recipients can buy trinkets to make the economy go round, it is so displaced workers dont riot in the streets and resort to crime.

Yep not a bad thing for the humans at first. But if they manage to replace the man who controls the computers we hit a bit of an issue. Certainly a good thing for companies.

Insurance companies will love it too. Big car companies will most likely buy insurance for their automated cars in bulk as their software controls the car. Insurance companies will actually be massively behind this. Decreased risk of payout yet steady income from the companies. If a company screws up a batch of cars that crash it's insurance goes up and its competitors succeed. Capitalism at work.

>That is happening everywhere not just places with increased minimum wage
It is happening extremely fast in places placing artificially high minimum wages though especially in America where thr minimum wage is largely irrelevant.

Seattle which has had leftist morons creaming themselves over their minimum wage increase laws has been ht extremely hard by it and it hasnt eveb reached half of the planned "muh 15$"
The only person here saying automation isnt going to happen is you.
Even the Dutch user has repeatedly said it is going to happen but barring the artificial variable of min wage it will happen naturally and smoothly. But what we see where government forces businesses hands is what I keep explaining to you. It is sudden with no time to adjust and lots of people losing jobs small businesses disappearing and big corporations gaining more mwrket share because theyre the only ones who can eat the artificially imposed burden