Serious question to most people on this website

Serious question to most people on this website.

What exactly is wrong with helping minorities? Also, why do you hate them so much?

Apparently it falls to me on this occasion to remind you that Cred Forums is satire.

And I'm out.

You're extremely naive if you think that.

>that image
Blacks didn't build this country, this society. The premise that they did is false, and as such your argument cannot be sustained.

first of all, not entirely. Second of all, fuck you.

This

>le blacks built this country meme
No they fucking didn't. Industry in the north built this country and they did it without slaves.

If you give them a hand, all they will do is suck up resources and make more nigger babies. You can't give them a hand your way out of bad genetics and resulting low IQ.

My long articulated analysis can be found in pic related.

You are cucking yourself and encouraging their massive birth rates while the average white can barely scrape by and never plans on having more than even 1 kid due to responsibility and have to provide gibsmedat to the exponentially growing "minority" population. Whites are already in the single digits in terms of global population.

>slavery was a byproduct of racism!!!

I am a minority, do you want to help me?

America was built on the backbone of slavery.

Even if it wasn't that wouldn't change the point that black people are in a seriously bad spot because of it and giving them a helping hand out of it is not criminal.

In fact, it should be a responsibility.

Blacks didn't build shit, they were slaves for a short time, and then white people freed them. Only around 1% of whites even owned slaves... and there has been plenty of time since then.

Black culture encourages gangsterism, subverting the law, violence against everyone in the pursuit of money.

My point is, white people can't help black people, until the blacks sort out their own shit and fix their own communities. You can't force some one to get a good education, you can't force some one to raise their kids properly -- that's the real heart of the problem.

>America was built on the backbone of slavery.
It wasn't.

We fought the greatest war on American soil in order to free the slaves.

We lost thousands of live.

The infrastructure of the country was turn to pieces.

The debt we were in was ridiculous.

Believing that this county was "built on" black slavery is the most blue pilled thing you can do.

>LEAF
only leafs or swedes does this

I don't like being stabbed or having my daughter raped, mainly

>don't engage with people that disagree with you because you are so insecure about your own opinions that you resort to ad-hominem attacks.

Being stupid sounds tedious.

>people are in a bad spot because instead of being butchered by enemy tribes in Africa, their great great great granddads were brought to America where they were forced to work in fields all day just to get food, water, a place to sleep, and a family to live with!

>Minorities are majorities in their home countries / continent.

>They do not help themselves in their own lands.

>Somehow they are deserving of my help in my homeland, above my own countrymen.

Really makes me cognate

Did you read the rest of the comment? It doesn't matter if it was or wasn't.

I dislike some of them because they are statistically less well suited to civilization than others. East Asians are good. Indians are fine. Blacks are not.

As for helping them, it depends on how you define "helping" - voluntary charity imagine, evening I think you're wasting money. Laws that literally make them a privileged class (by the definition of the term, a privilege is a special legal entitlement) are not, nor are government handouts, as those are imposed by force. Waste your own money and constrain your own conduct if you wish. The moment you try to impose those on me is the moment you find out what a 9mm diet tastes like.

...

Blacks did the farm work in the south while the north built infrastructure,factories etc

...

>while the average white can barely scrape by and never plans on having more than even 1 kid

The average white has it far better than the average black due to less opportunities. Undeniable fact.

I do not have an issue with helping minorities. I believe in the principle of equal opportunity. Everyone, no matter the race or ethnicity, should have access to good schooling, for example.

My main issue however, is when people start to move into the equality of results, which is terrible. The outcry of the black community these days is not for equality of opportunity, but equality of results.

It becomes not a push for opportunity despite skin color, but because of it.

It also confuses me when people think the white population of what was turning into the USA were just sitting back sipping on tea and watching their slaves do all the work.

Only a minority of people owned slaves and you have to be retarded to believe that what was less than 1% of the population at the time built an entire country.

Whites contributed the most labor when it comes to building the USA.

...

Helping minorities makes sense. The problem is that America isn't just helping, but feeding them.
Help is implementation of schools and security in their neighborhoods so kids will come out better than their parents. Not giving them money they can spend "on their kids" - which means, whatever they fancy. Poor people always take bad decisions with money, and I cannot believe the government is not aware of this.

>america built by slavery

How did those slaves fare in liberia and haiti... once they got the white man off their back?

Haven't checked, I'm sure they've built those countries into gleaming examples of modernity by now, since they're so good at building up society and all.

>haha only stupid people resort to ad homs ya big stupid face

it was a black dude in the costume

I actually can't even believe how every single article is skipping over that fact

Why should I help out some random people who are in a bad spot? I don't know them, and they certainly aren't related to me.

Nobody is asking you to give up your priviledges. People are asking you to just sit down, relax and take a rational perspective on this instead of blind hatred. It won't affect you negatively if suddenly 10% of the population has it better off than they used to. In fact, it might make your life easier.

Like the opportunity to be bred out in their own countries. Tell me more about how desirable it is to have my entire race wiped out leaf.

#dicksoutforharambe

shopped, I was there for the 8s, that wasn't the post.

Blacks have less opportunity not because muh oppression but because they hold themselves back. The same can be said for Hispanics. Asians are a minority but they actually build businesses and try in school which blows my mind because you're telling me that if you work hard and try you can be successful holy shit

...

>why do you hate them so much
fear

>How did those slaves fare in liberia and haiti... once they got the white man off their back?
You honestly believe that they had the white man off their back, then? That's naive.

>black people are in a bad spot because of slavery
>not because they're welfare reliant porch monkeys with no ambition to be any more than that
>"my great grandfather was in chains. And that's what's caused my father and grandfather to become completely complacent with being poor and having no job"
except this a bad example here because 3 nigger dads raising kids in a row is very unlikely.

go away leaf

All you americans should know that the use of the word minority will stop being used in your country when whites become the minority.

Dont think the laws in place to protect and encourage economic growth within minority communities will apply to you either.

They will change the word minority to previously disadvantaged and your country will slowly become like mine where only 9% of the country pays income tax to feed the rest.

Extend your empathy a bit? They are United States citizens just like you. Don't you want to see your country a nicer, safer place for everybody?

It would be better to have a white guy in a red shirt doing the climbing, then another white guy in a blue shirt shows up and pushes him off. Blue shirt helps the darky back on his feet, while red in the background looks on, shrugs, and just climbs the ledge by himself.
Blue then also climbs the ledge by himself, and spends the next five panels trying to help up darky to absolutely no avail as darky continues falling down in weird, retarded ways.
Blue idly wonders how long it's going to take for darky to get onto the ledge, to which darky screams at blue to stop dropping him.
In the background, red continues climbing unencumbered.

There is literally nothing wrong with helping minorities IF they also help themselves and the community. We've done nothing but try to help them yet they prove to be a detriment to our society. Also your pic is inaccurate, the only way you could say we only got this far because of minorities is if you think we also owe our success to horses oxen and other farm animals

What's wrong?

What's wrong is that after all the money, affirmative action, and preferential treatment thrown at them.... Contrary to the Liberal narrative, they do NOT* GET* BETTER* from the apparent historical injustices that has laid them so low.

In fact, there's are only two groups of minority's whose overall demographics are NOT* a money sinkhole as their numbers increase, which are North Asians and ashkenazi Jews. Even European immigration is shown to be a tax burden.

Welfare, rarely, actually helps anybody get back on the horse, and those statistical anomalys who it does help, would have done well enough already on their own.

All this is, is Democracts buying votes through virtue signalling, and bribing mobs of thankless parasites, who have no intention of using the olive branch given to them to do right.

No, I want it to be a nicer, safer place for white people.

Everytime. It's always the implication that the white slave owners, and the black slaves are fucking immortal.

Empathy is a two way street and only a cuck affords empathy to people that not only dont give a shit about you but resent and hate you.

Yes why don't we help those poor oppressed East Asinas who live in ghettos and are forced to commit crimes because of their circumstances.....OH you mean those other minorities, the ones that also just so happen to score 85 on IQ tests. Yes I'm sure if you throw enough money at them they will become rocket scientists.

lmao what?

I was there too, 88888888 was "plz be my ai gf"
>plz be my ai gf

*Asians

>Blacks have less opportunity not because muh oppression but because they hold themselves back.
This is not a quantifiable fact but merely your opinion.

>Asians are a minority but they actually build businesses and try in school which blows my mind because you're telling me that if you work hard and try you can be successful holy shit

If only we enslaved them too, right? Blacks have shit oppurtunities in terms of education, employment and many other things. This has all been documented and is 100% fact. It's not because they don't work as hard. It's because they do not have the same oppurtunities as others so the only path they can see to being sucessfull is doing illegal shit.

Because you can't help blacks. They are genetically prone to violence and stupid, so any money spent on social programs to fix inequality is completely wasted. Better to spend it somwhere else instead.

100% this

All Asians seem to do pretty good desu. Only blacks and Hispanics to a lesser extent seem to have a problem

Blacks are so utopian man. Racism will exist in the country forever. Get over yourselves. Wasn't the US the most racist country on the western hemisphere? What'd you expect?

You're right, we've been extracting the vast wealth of haiti for centuries.

Googles are so dumb... I mean whites are so smart... I mean, uh social unjustice magically worked in some unspecified way that allowed us to completely dominate their shitty societies even at a distance

For some reason this white social injustice didn't work on any other race as effectively... It be a mystery and sheeit my google!

Your entire race is not being wiped out. And if you somehow genuinely think that, it wouldn't be black people's fault either. You're still the majority by a huge amount. You breeding less is a direct reflection of your advancement in society.

I have no problem with you helping minorities. Knock yourself out.

>it was a black dude in the costume

Sauce on the claim? I don't wanna jump through a ton of articles that will clearly gloss over thet fact.

...

Fpbp

This. Only someone profoundly broken by shaming and manipulative language could ever be swindled by a nebulous moral imperative demanding they hamstring themselves to pursue someone else's interests.
Doubly so to pursue the interests of someone who not only doesn't care about their own, but will often actively work against them.
This is why people are getting so sick of social justice and liberalism in general: they're the spirit of backstabbing. Any capable persons and institutions that throw their lot in with these traitors find themselves promptly betrayed.
Invited to a free pass through my university? Oh, now you're parading around talking about how vile and racist I am. Hired into a managerial position at my company despite your lack of qualifications? Well now I'm underpaying you because my organization is sexist and supports a glass ceiling. Sided with a twitter chimpout and fired a problematic employee? Still getting chimped out at twice as hard because taking action meant I just admitted I was wrong to have hired them in the first place.

Who the fuck would EVER, having seen time and time again the sheer fetishization of perfidiousness the left embodies, EVER side with these groups unless they DIRECTLY declared for you? You would have to be fucking broken.

Blacks literally need gibs to be sustained, even in their countries of origin.

you can even see his black skin on the ankle.

The left always lies.

>it isn't happening
>but if it was happening it would eb your own fault
>actually it is happening and its a good thing and you should like it

...

>that image

Why should my children have to pay for what my great grandparents supposedly did?

Fuck
Right
Off

Which one of those is the serious question?

It's a two way exchange. You gotta make sure everybody has the same opportunities if you want the country to be a better place. It's what you call efficiency.

This.

At no point did we need blacks to succeed. Their presence here was only a benefit to the top 1%, as always. The richest owned slaves, which took jobs from poor whites and left the south's infrastructure a shambles after the civil war.

Blacks have always been a net negative in the US.

>What exactly is wrong with helping minorities?
I don't know, you tell me.

Why can't these minorities get a state of their own ever?
>Also, why do you hate them so much?
I don't, I am a minority.

Hahahahaha, holy shit. The media continues to raise the bar for dishonesty every time.

So society can be a better place. You're surprisingly shortsighted aren't you?

"Minorities" = people who outnumber us on a global scale and have huge birthrates and propensity for sucking up welfare when they live in the West.

Let's quit generalizing everyone because honestly every single race has people that are lazy worthless losers who never amount to anything.

Regardless of your race,religion, background in America if you actually work hard enough you will be rewarded. But if you expect everything handed to you then you're never going to get anywhere.

Blacks do not try as hard because many expect welfare yet the blacks that work hard succeed just like any other race.

Funny how educated Nigerians that ran away from their shit corrupt government do perfectly fine pursuing the exact same opportunities that white americans do. Funny how the majority of them find african american culture disgusting as well.

Funny how every african would sell their own mothers to get the chance to pursue opportunities in the USA.

Look at these fucking racist whites, not accepting diversity!

EBIL WHYT MEN!

DUHPATREEARCHY

>which took jobs from poor whites
Yeah nobody ever took jobs from blacks, who face a statistical bias in terms of employment?

Employers are almost twice more likely to hire whites over blacks. Even when presented with the same resume, interview, and formalities.

I am a minority. We don't need white people's fucking help. Stop treating us like children you white knight motherfucker.

Except you're not a minority.

Nothing is per se "wrong" with it, but nobody has ever helped me or given me handouts because of my skin color. I joined the military so my dad wouldn't have to pay for my college and I served honorably for 5+ years. During my time I saw minorities being promoted to positions they weren't ready for, and being enlisted before more qualified white applicants simply so the Navy could keep it's 50/50 quota of race. Affirmative action is racist, and last time I checked I was born in 92 which means I had nothing to do with colonialism, slavery, or segregation. But wait, I'm white, guess that means everything is my fault.... do you see why some people could grow to dislike minorities?

>Blacks do not try as hard because many expect welfare yet the blacks that work hard succeed just like any other race.
Thats completely false. Blacks work just as hard as any other poor class race. They just face less opportunities than most other poor class race.

>a statistical bias in terms of employment
yeah, because the south is being flooded by fucking spics taking the jobs now instead

Helping minorities is giving them special treatment which is lowering standards.

Its not white peoples fault that when minorities move into a new neighborhood, they drive out the whites and the neighbirhood becomes a shithole. Minorities that are willing to assimilate and work hard are the most successful ethnic groups in the country.

Why should special privileges be given to those that refuse to assimilate? All this does is create a divide among the people.

or maybe many are just complacent and don't want to get any farther. I see this within my own family and it disgusts me how dosile many Americans have become

did you read the rest of my comment? you know why i said MOST other races? because hispanics are that other race. You are so deep down the Cred Forums rabbithole you fail to see it. Blacks are discriminated against on almost every aspect of their lives. This is why they live in slums and are poor and commit crimes. because there's literally nothing else they can do. Sure some of them manage to climb the 90 degree vertical wall but most people fall off. It's not because they're "dumb niggers".

Im a minority in America because im not a hispanic.

This. Why the fuck can't you just ignore the leafs and let their threads die?

The fact that no one replied to you yet says it all.

Helping minorities = give shitskins & niggers free stuff.

So they rape and murder more because they are poor?
Makes sense.

Not even our blacks say that shit.

>because there's literally nothing else they can do
This is mostly black culture. They drag down any black who "talks white".
We're lucky because most of us are some shade of brown and therefore niggers don't have such clear "enemies" to antagonize, and yet we get that shit too. Muh Chocó pride. Fucking monkeys don't want to study.

so what about the whole entirety of africa

I know, people just dont want to reveal themselves as being racist so they say "minorities" instead of saying whitey needs to help them more,

>black qualifications mean less

Of course they do. Literally everyone (including blacks) know they don't have to meet the same standard as whites to get any qualification.

Thank libshits like yourself for supporting affirmative action.

Mentally it's helpful to subtract one "level" of quality from a black credential to get a white reference point

Black ivy league = white state school
black state school = white community college
black community college = white high school grad

OR
black senior exec = white senior manager
Black senior manager = white middle manager
Black middle manager = white line worker
Black line worker = unemployable white

And so on. Burned WAY too many times in more idealistic by blacks with meaningless credentials

You're a fucking leaf, what do you know?

Canadian who actually never met many blacks.

I grew up with googles and if you there's NO way you would have this dreamy vaseline on the lens view of them.

Average google will kill you over a hundred bucks and feel wronged by society for the rest of their life if they ever get caught

Its not the entirety of africa but setting that aside, africa has had massive problems with colonialism and destabilization of their nations. It's actually a very similar situation in the Middle East. Those regions where deliberately destabilized to avoid growth because they where too dangerous to Europe.

that has nothing to do with affirmative action. Are you not understanding that the employers are making a judgment based solely on race when they hire whites over blacks with the exact same circumstances?

There's also the SD difference in IQ. 50% of whites are smarter than >80% of blacks.

It's not even your grandfather who did it. Not like there was a nigger cent store. Buying a slave was like dropping 40,000.

>What exactly is wrong with helping minorities?

They grow dependent.
Help them today, and they will need help every day from now on.

Instead we should level the playing field and tell them to help themselves.

That would be OK if they actually worked and studied. They could take care of unskilled work (which is not that bad anyway; all work dignifies mankind)
Most blacks here work only because we have little to no subsidized help. You have to be in the absolute shitter (hobo single mother) to be able to receive around $80USD per month. My country benefits a lot from being this poor, paradoxically.

leaf.

sage

Because you're implying a preconceived inequality. There would be no reason to help a smart black person because the racial prejudice doesn't exist. It is unjust to promote the dumb black person to compete with smart (white) people because of the color of their skin.

I don't hate them, I hate the system that shames me into upholding them.

>assertion without evidence

This is the wage gap nonsense all over. It takes one person snapping up all the "underemployed" blacks who aren't hired elsewhere for a lesser wage and out competing everyone else. This would result in a super competitive firm mostly run by blacks that drives all its competitors bankrupt or it would force all competitors to give up their racism. That has never happened.

Your premise requires that we accept that not a single rich white man is greedier than he is racist.

Kill yourself, you worthless subhuman.

>Nobody is asking you to give up your priviledges.
The UN just released a paper saying US taxpayers owe black people like $14 trillion dollars for "acts of racial terrorism"

That's the thing they are no longer fighting for equality, they want equity.

They basically want to become advantaged by disadvantaging others.

The point is even IF your study is true (and some gender wage gap tier bullshit) is doesn't mean what you think it means.

Due to affirmative action SAME paper qualifications for blacks and whites do not mean the same thing about the people. It's easier for blacks to get those qualifications so they are appropriately discounted in the marketplace

Fact: Only 1.8% of the American population had slaves during the slavery time. So you are telling me the whole country was made of cotton? Why you libcucks totally overlook that Thug culture that keeps black communities down? They drop out of schools, sell drugs and steal but it sure does have nothing to do with that "EVERYDAY I'M HUSTLIN' " that plays non-stop on the radio.

I might consider it, but then I remember dumb cunts like the person who made that pic really believe that situation is what's going on.
Then I just decide that I'd rather give the finger to them all and let them keep starving and murdering each other.

Oh, I agree. My point was just that you should never expect too many of them to be doctors. The horrifyingly low standards for black admissions to medical school in this country are why I can never trust a black doctor (except for the rare case like Dr. Carson, who is internationally renowned). The good ones lose out because it is too hard for me to distinguish them from affirmative action black doctors. The least-cost highest-benefit solution for me is to simply never trust any black doctors.

>Don't you want to see your country a nicer, safer place for everybody?
Yea, so when do they all leave?

Reparations, cutting checks, etc. Doesn't work. What can we do for them that isn't just instant gratification that would just perpetuate the problem further?

If you want a real discussion, we can start here. We need solutions that don't demonize one race to prop up another, the haves and the have nots, typical class war fair.

They need to change from the inside out, look at themselves differently. Stop playing emotions and disregarding facts. If you want to protest make sure it's over someone who had merit as someone who truly dindu and was an asset to the community. Instead they keep on this stay woke crap and the feed them selves all this weird racial propaganda, about them selves being aliens and kings. It's just a unhealthy balance. You have to also stop the racism perpetuated against blacks for "acting white".

>What exactly is wrong with helping minorities?

Nothing, which is why we do it.

What is wrong with gratitude?

Not really. Most of the benefits of slavery were destroyed in civil war. The golden age of America would come much later and be the direct result of Europe's world wars

>When a aussie calls you a shitposter

Minorities need to learn to help themselves. No White person can give them better lives

The 'history of slavery' didn't kill black people in today's world, LBJ and the welfare state did.

The poverty rate of Blacks in the 1940s was 87%. 20 years later it shot down to 47%. Almost half of them were escaping poverty and climbing up on their own. The majority of black children were being raised in 2 parent households, and after the welfare policies of LBJ, the majority were then in single parent households, and are still today.

Centuries of slavery and discrimination, Jim Crow laws, all these things didn't destroy the black communities. Yet one fucking generation of the welfare state did.

Then it was furthered into today with Bill Clinton's crime law which further replaced the black father with the state to make sure blacks are further reliant on the state and the democrats for providing those benefits.

The West has no problem with other nations succeeding as long as they're not hostile anti-Western dictatorships. If the Nationalists won against the Communists, China would have replaced America as the world's strongest superpower a long time ago. But instead China chose to be retarded. I expect Middle Eastern countries ended up poor for the same reason. It's not the West's fault that the third world is the way it is.

I am all for helping minorities, as long as that help is a check and a one way trip to their homeland.

No meme I think we should promote the back to Africa movement.

We could even send them foreign aid. Win win.

Yeah that'd be my approach too. We can always make more money. We'll just pay them to leave and never let them back in. Done.

feels like this thread is everyone vs. 1 oblivious leaf.

>Your premise requires that we accept that not a single rich white man is greedier than he is racist.
>professional sports teams could not exist

...

we doesn't hate minorities

Cred Forums is not one person

lurk moar

when shills use leaf calling

Black hold each other back. Blacks are constanly bullied by their peers when they are gorwing up if they show any kind of positive academic acheivement, being called "uncle tom" or "what you wanna be white?". Because blacks don't value intelligence as a culture. They value things like instant gratification, hence why many kids end up selling drugs; because it gives them a quick and fast access to material wealth, which is important to culture, much much more so than hard work and effort. Stop blaming white people and realize that a lot of blacks have to change their own culture and community because they can even begin to be successful. And they have to do this themselves, not with hands out from white people.

A white guy pretending to be black is pretending a black guy in a monkey suit is white. The left has abandoned any semblance of truth or logic.

70% of pol users are self hating ethnic minorities

The issue is that no human beings are genetically equal.

>why hate minorities
This country was virtually 100% white, then came the non-whites, then the communities fell apart, patriotism fell apart, freedom of association fell apart, law and order fell apart; society fell apart. They are so different to us in every way that they can never assimilate and I have no respect for any of them that choose to live here.

No you don't.

Fpbp. The only people who don't think it is satire are the people that fell for ironic posting and are basically getting laughed at by everyone behind their back

>slavery was bad for blacks
10x better than the slavery they already knew in Africa imo

>he fell for the /po/ is satire meme

Kek, underrated

>Nobody is asking you to give up your priviledges

except most of them want money, and the rest want us all dead

>le everything is ebin maymays and le bantz xD
Stay back in Reddit you cocksucker.

Kek

There is nothing wrong with helping minorities.

There is a problem with miss allocating resources in a way that does not represent the demos.

The governments in western democracies are supposed to represent the people, often many of the social programs that are implemented to help minorities however expend to many resources to be justifiable.

Often education, the legal system, and others are far underfunded and not looked at as much because a over expenditure on social programs.

Catering to the needs of the few to the needs of the many is simply a poor idea for a government to adhere too.

Programs such as affirmative action, food stamps, etc.. are good ideas in theory but the resources required to sustain such programs makes them unjust. Especially when the vast majority of these programs aim to tackle symptoms of a problem and not the core problem itself.

This is not to say that all social programs are unjust. Only that only social programs which can be enacted in such a way to give a proportional (with a consideration to the possibly extra difficulty present in their lives) amount of resources to their demographic.

Liberal Democracy consistently violate this tenant, and are almost always running a deficit, and never a balanced budget.

Fair point. It HAS happened where they WERE under-utilized and it forced all competitors to adopt the same policy to remain competitive. That hasn't happened for blacks in any field requiring brainpower.

Jared Diamond believes this

My dream is to create a colombian apartheid where Niggers has only the possibility to live and work in Chocó, Tumaco and Buenaventura (and some districts in Cali), Indígenas in Guajira, Amazonas and Cauca, and the rest of our territorie belonging to whites and Castizos (not mulatos, they belong to Buenaventura too).

If 10% have it better off, a proportionate amount of people have their standards lessened.

Fucking leaf

>THOSE POOR, DUMB PEOPLE OF COLOR. THEY NEED THE HELP OF THE GLORIOUS WHITE MAN TO ELEVATE THEM TO THEIR LEVEL OF SUPERIORITY

Get fucked, enabler

THIS PIC

they demand help at my expense, and make no effort to incorporate themselves into productive society.

they demand I foot the bill for their lifestyle, then reject basic American principles like being law abiding citizens, paying taxes, learning the language, and embracing capitalism and small government,

Nothing wrong with them. Hopefully there's enough interbreeding between races in the future to make race irrelevant. Genetic diversity at it's finest.

>tfw norway and denmark were built on the backs of 8 trillion black slaves and that's why they're so rich today despite them never owning slaves

It's been long enough to get their shit together.

Holy shit, that's pretty much the whole story isn't it?!?