Had a conversation with an acquaintance earlier who was arguing that Black...

Gabriel Hall
Gabriel Hall

Had a conversation with an acquaintance earlier who was arguing that Black Panther was not the first Black superhero in minstream comics, but Waku was. I made the argument that Waku was just a guy with a spear and shield with no superpowers, but they argued that if that were the case, then black widow and Hawkeye weren't super heroes.
Thoughts?

Adam Lewis
Adam Lewis

Wasn't the first black superhero Lion Man from All Negro Comics?

Ayden Wilson
Ayden Wilson

Batman isn't a superhero, he's just a guy with a belt and and a grapple gun with no superpowers

William Hall
William Hall

Mainstream comics. That is what I should have specified. All-Negro wasn't mainstream

Xavier Nelson
Xavier Nelson

Black Widow has retarded aging and Hawkeye has superhuman accuracy though

Nathaniel Wilson
Nathaniel Wilson

I thought the first black superhero was ....that guy....the one with the trains and a huge hammer.

Joshua Russell
Joshua Russell

Mainstream comics.
Define "mainstream comics"

Jeremiah Wilson
Jeremiah Wilson

Yes, but Batman also has the ability of super wealth as well as ridiculously high intelligence, and has taken on super villains. Waku's most amazing feat was working with his tribe to survive a zombie onslaught by a necromancer who ended up getting killed by his own zombies. Brendan Fraser kills an undead mummy overlord who has much greater powers, and he isn't a superhero

Dominic Reed
Dominic Reed

You don't have to have powers, just a central theme or gimmick.

Gavin Martinez
Gavin Martinez

The argument doesn't so much rely on a lack of powers but he doesn't seem to fit the genre.
Waku seems more like a type of pulp/adventure hero.

Asher Harris
Asher Harris

I think a superhero refers more to actions than inherent abilities. No one would debate calling Batman or the Phantom a superhero for example.

Nathan Johnson
Nathan Johnson

existed for more than one issue

Bentley White
Bentley White

BP wasn't even the first black hero in Marvel.

Ryder Wilson
Ryder Wilson

I am going by who the biggest competitors were at the time. And no, not comic strips in the newspaper or anything like that. Stuff that sold huge, companies that, when you say comics, their image comes to mind to the average person. DC, Archie, and whatever Marvel was known as back then

Ayden Sullivan
Ayden Sullivan

Who gives a shit.
It was just as ok of a movie as the previous ones.

Logan Sanders
Logan Sanders

Correct. But the argument is about Superheroes, not just heroes. Indiana Jones is a hero, but he is not a superhero.

Ayden Hernandez
Ayden Hernandez

in comics, smart guy

Thomas Thomas
Thomas Thomas

Not talking about the movie

Xavier Ortiz
Xavier Ortiz

Honestly i thought it was the best MCU film in years, much better then ragnarok or homecoming

Nolan Evans
Nolan Evans

No you didn't you faggot. Fuck off.

Thomas Rodriguez
Thomas Rodriguez

What, you want a fucking screenshot to go along with?

Nolan Allen
Nolan Allen

super wealth as well as ridiculously high intelligence, and has taken on super villains
So 90% of pulp characters are superheroes now?

Camden Cox
Camden Cox

Okay then, what sets Batman apart from regular pulp heroes that makes him a superhero?

Samuel Kelly
Samuel Kelly

mentions one company that mattered and two companies that only made it big after the CCA
Fuck off, casual, and tell your acquaintance to get better friends.

Jayden Kelly
Jayden Kelly

how he dresses

Gavin Campbell
Gavin Campbell

I think we can all agree that there were black protagonists that came before Black Panther in the comic book world, but A: would you make a movie about a guy that throws spears? B: I think not having "super" powers doesn't affect a character being written as a protagonist. Black widow/hawkeye are considered heroes by most people, so Waku could totally have claim to been "first". Your buddy has a point but nobody's gonna make a movie about spearchucker mcgee in this day and age unless entirely contrite

David Ramirez
David Ramirez

Are you going chip in and answer, or just be an ass?

Aaron Gomez
Aaron Gomez

Sounds like really dumb semantics desu. People have been debating whether Robin Hood is a superhero for decades, and still nobody can explain what the fuck the point of that debate it.

Anthony Perry
Anthony Perry

would you make a movie about a guy that throws spears?
Fuck yeah I would. Spears are cool.

Grayson Mitchell
Grayson Mitchell

I'd say "has taken on super villains" has moved Batman (and Robin) from being a Costumed Crimefighter to a Superhero.

While there are plenty of highly-skilled athletic costumed crime-fighters, most of them take on ordinary criminals and gangsters, rather than regularly going up against people with super-powers.

Bentley Williams
Bentley Williams

My man.

Leo Thomas
Leo Thomas

So would that make Lex Luthor not a supervillain, then? His only "superpowers" are intelligence and money.

Benjamin Foster
Benjamin Foster

I wont disagree, spears are the superior weapon on a battlefield, only wanted to cover the point that people get butthurt :)

Jordan Russell
Jordan Russell

Does a mediocre necromancer count as a super villain?
Also, yeah, that was part of my argument. Waking might have been the best warrior of his tribe/nation, but that doesn't make him a superhero. Just because you might be the smartest guy in your class doesn't mean you are automatically a super genius. But then they brought up BW and Hawkeye and I argued that they were on a huch bigger scale than Waku.

Logan Parker
Logan Parker

John Henry. I'd say he was more folk hero than superhero.

Gavin Howard
Gavin Howard

Definitely a folk hero. "A folk hero or national hero is a type of hero – real, fictional or mythological – with the sole salient characteristic being the imprinting of his or her name, personality and deeds in the popular consciousness of a people."
Same reason why I'd say that in that Robin Hood debate that apparently exists that Robin Hood is a folk hero rather than superhero.

Robert Fisher
Robert Fisher

Well, what where his skills?

The Phantom was just a strong dude and he is considered a Super Hero.

Brody Gray
Brody Gray

His skills are that he is good with a spear and that he is the strongest man in the tribe.

Nathaniel Rivera
Nathaniel Rivera

Allegedly

Carter Myers
Carter Myers

This looks cool. Anybody able to storytime it. It would be a great thing to read when I get back from work.

Christian Allen
Christian Allen

Well, that doesn't necesarely means he is no super hero. What exactly is a common history involving him?

A few definitions depic a super hero as a fictional hero having extraordinary or superhuman powers or an exceptionally skillful or successful person who is dedicated to fighting crime, protecting the public, and usually battling supervillains.

Kinda like the Phantom.

Owen Bennett
Owen Bennett

So Superman was at first not a superhero?

Ryan Cook
Ryan Cook

No, he is still the antithesis of Superman. Making him a supervillain.

Caleb Young
Caleb Young

He fought bad guy's to protect his tribe. Usually people like hunters and whatnot. The biggest threat was fighting a necromancer's zombies. The necromancer ended up getting killed by the zombie animals he summoned.

I mean, there is a difference between being skilled with a spear and being able to literally leap over tall buildings in a single bound. Waku never threw a spear so hard it pierced a man through a rock. He was just... Good with one. Maybe Olympic athlete level, but I am not sure. Hard to gauge

Lucas Martinez
Lucas Martinez

From his marvel Wikia:
Powers: none
Abilities: Waku was a skilled hand-to-hand combatant, as well as skilled in the use of a spear. He also has a very good knowledge of jungle survival.

Benjamin Turner
Benjamin Turner

Honestly, he seems very similar to the Phantom or that sort of skilled characters that you can see in DC (liek Green Arrow or Bats). I say he is a super hero.

Cooper Barnes
Cooper Barnes

As was captain savage as was nick fury originally.

Henry Martinez
Henry Martinez

liek

Oh, fuck me.

Jonathan Thomas
Jonathan Thomas

black widow and Hawkeye weren't super heroes
this is correct

Aiden Reed
Aiden Reed

A: would you make a movie about a guy that throws spears?

I would love to see actual jungle adventure films come back as a genre.

Jace Anderson
Jace Anderson

pulp/adventure hero.

Yeah, he also fits there. But the way he threats his village (or tribe) is similar to the way other heroes view their cities (which I know also fit for the masked vigilante types).

Cooper Wright
Cooper Wright

Hawkeye has trick arrows. Does Waku have trick spears at least? You gotta have at least some gadgets to be a superhero.

Camden Wright
Camden Wright

No. It is literally just a spear and shield. No blessings from Gods, no magic, just a spear and shield.
Not even a costume either. Just the pants shown in the picture.

Samuel Hughes
Samuel Hughes

a mediocre necromancer count as a super villain?
A necromancer so an imaginary character intended in a fantastical role, check. Waking might have been the best warrior of his tribe/nation, but that doesn't make him a superhero.
Best warrior yep he's intended as a larger than life hero.
Clearly you have to of the strongest foundations right there that imply the super heroic genre.
If what you say is true clearly Waku was first.

Mason Jackson
Mason Jackson

So then why wasn't he ever pedalled as the first, if true?

Aiden Bennett
Aiden Bennett

the only reason to ever bring up Waku is to say ACKSHUALLY to people excited about Black Panther

Christopher Foster
Christopher Foster

Probably because Black Panther was considered more marketable.

Adam Gutierrez
Adam Gutierrez

Well, he is. His costume is cool, his skills are cool, his background is kinda cool (Altough i'm not really a fan of Wakanda).

The guy is insanely marketable.

Jaxon Green
Jaxon Green

because he's not really a superhero.

Samuel Taylor
Samuel Taylor

And now we are back to square one. You guys were saying that"according to this and this and this, he is" but now he isn't? The fuck, man?

Tyler Smith
Tyler Smith

Cred Forums is more than one person, user. You can't reach consensus in this place unless something is universally loved or hated.

Terminology is one of those things.

Adam Anderson
Adam Anderson

doesn't have a secret identity
doesn't have a costume
doesn't have any particularly notable abilities or technology that sets him apart from normal humans

Caleb Reed
Caleb Reed

I wasn't suggested he isn't, however alternatively if it was the case that Waku was considered more marketable sooner rather than later all kinds of super heroics would be extrapolated meetings with African gods, defending his tribe from the white man (I'm assuming this gut is African) in to trick shots with spears sooner or later he's bound to acquire a magic spear. Clearly he was intended to fulfill mystical heroics from the outset referencing the magical necromancer part.

James Young
James Young

And you probably will get a nearly 100 pages of discussion out of something that everyone hates, but barely a few of them with something everyone loves.

Isaiah Torres
Isaiah Torres

Hey man, I agree he is a super hero based on his interaction with his place of birth and sworn oath of protection (plus the skillset).

Easton Lee
Easton Lee

Yep I mean look at another example The Shadow evokes the crime noir genre but clearlyis a super hero of a sorts, Phantomas the original french novella clearly intended as some kind of arch super villain from the outset. History is replete with examples of legend and myth we can ascribe to the same properties referred to nowadays as 'super heroics'

Levi Thomas
Levi Thomas

Black Panther didn't originally have superpowers either. If Waku was still around I'm sure he would have gotten some magical buffs to make him a "legit" superhero.

Parker Evans
Parker Evans

Agreed he would definitely have 'leveled up' by now.

Camden Cruz
Camden Cruz

Phantoma
Holy Shit, she was hot.

Kayden Green
Kayden Green

I thought he had strength and reflexes thanks to the heart-shaped herb and the vibranium suit?

Kayden Jenkins
Kayden Jenkins

I can see him not getting a long with T'Challa (mind you, T'Challa would probably agree with a few of his arguments of his country being very xenophobic) or downright hating the Wakandans for being so snobbish and/or for refusing to help his people.

Maybe rivals, similarly to Cyclops and Wolverine.

Gavin Gutierrez
Gavin Gutierrez

This thread is the first I've heard of the character to be honest.

Easton Gomez
Easton Gomez

Well, he is obscure. Fantomah is more known than him and she has like 2 pictures in Rule 34.

Luis Powell
Luis Powell

Sorry who are we talking about now? Fantomas or Waku. Can you imagine the political backlash nowadays of trying to push a black super hero who is essentially a spear chucker? The Poutrage would be phenomenal.

Hudson Lopez
Hudson Lopez

In his first appearance he's just a great hunter, leader, and probably genius.

Sebastian Flores
Sebastian Flores

he had enhanced senses and Wakandan super-tech that even impressed Reed in his first appearance

Noah Roberts
Noah Roberts

re: all this Batman being a superhero while having no powers
This user has the right idea. While having no superpowers, being able to tackle and defeat supervillains in a next-to-daily basis is grounds enough for being a superhero when you have no powers.

So we can agree that a superhero is:
1) a heroic individual
2) has superpowers
2a) and if not, could take on superpowered villains and defeat them reliably

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