/christ/

Hello

Are we supposed to share this thread with protestants and orthodox ?

christ's human form was an illusion, he was wholly divine

Well, the question isn't that simple, as next to Arians there were much more Semi-Arians (although it was more of a political situation right after the legalisation of Christianity). The most trinitarian gospel is also the most gnostic one, namely John (first paragraph).

I consider Mormons more like Manicheans, they incorporated elements of Christianity but they can't really be considered Christians.

I have a passion for theology btw. I'd love to study it at a university.

Won't be forgotten.

Amen

We have a docetist in the house. Are you a gnostic Christian?

Funny thing is that vehement anti-Arianism is also considered heretical (luciferianism, named not after the fallen one but after the Sardinian bishop Lucifer Calaritanus).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_heresies

>Manicheans

Are they still around?

Christ's divine form is yet to come; our God Emperor is in transition from the shape of man to the shape of Shai-hulud. May the God Emperor's Peace reign for ten thousand years and ten thousand years after that.

disgusting-ass judeo-christians nowadays

how can you like this immature evil fuck you call God??

youre playing into the hands of the jews worshipping this dude

jesus has nothing to do with him

It is an obviously interesting history concerning the development of Christianity, and I do not hate Arians just as I do not hate Muslims.

I do however feel their theology is wrong.

Ont the piece about Gnosticism. I never really related them to be trinitarian, could you tell me a bit more about that"?

No, last ones were the Uyghurs around the 11th century.

A lot of Manichean elements came back in Christianity as the dualist sects of the Cathars, Bogomili, Paulicians... some survived into the 19th century in Armenia and Bulgaria (Plovdiv).

Manichean was used as a swear-word by the Orthodox/Catholics for these dualists through the Middle Ages.

>Manichean was used as a swear-word by the Orthodox/Catholics for these dualists through the Middle Ages.

Arian was also used as a swearword for dualists, although they were not related. This led to the name of the city of Castelnaudary in France, literally "castel nau d' Ary - new fortress of the Arians" around the late 10th, early 11th century.

The dualist "heresy" was brought to France from Bulgaria and Bosnia btw. Pic related is a stecak found in France.

(I am a convinced adherent of the bogomil/cathar/paulician doctrine btw, ama)

Have mercy on me, God, in your goodness
in your abundant compassion
blot out my offense.
Wash away all my guilt;
from my sin cleanse me.

For I know my offense;
my sin is always before me.
Against you alone have I sinned;
I have done such evil in your sight
That you are just in your sentence,
blameless when you condemn.
True, I was born guilty,
a sinner, even as my mother conceived me.
Still, you insist on sincerity of heart;
in my inmost being teach me wisdom.

Cleanse me with hyssop, that I may be pure;
wash me, make me whiter than snow.
Let me hear sounds of joy and gladness;
let the bones you have crushed rejoice.
Turn away your face from my sins;
blot out all my guilt.

A clean heart create for me, God;
renew in me a steadfast spirit.
Do not drive me from your presence,
nor take from me your holy spirit.
Restore my joy in your salvation;
sustain in me a willing spirit.

I will teach the wicked your ways,
that sinners may return to you.
Rescue me from death, God, my saving God,
that my tongue may praise your healing power.
Lord, open my lips;
my mouth will proclaim your praise.
For you do not desire sacrifice;
a burnt offering you would not accept.
My sacrifice, God, is a broken spirit;
God, do not spurn a broken, humbled heart.

–Psalm 51:3-19

>not making this thread on /x/

>I am a convinced adherent of the bogomil/cathar/paulician doctrine btw, ama

You could be a transhumanist insread of following old and busted systems as it happens to be most modern fort of dualistic (spirit is just a software ruining on the hardware of brain) gnosticism (salvation through special knowledge in this case not secret names of the archons but technological know how).

simply epic post, my progressive swedish friend

I'm not religious but I like the Catholic aesthetic

Deus Vult

Happy Reformation year!

>transhumanism
fucking disgusting

Gnosticism was more a collection of various sects who saw a connection between the teachings of Christ and Hellenist philosophy, more specifically Plato and Socrates.

So go as far as to claim that Plato was the first Christian philosopher, although he lived a couple of centuries before His birth. There are certainly a lot of similarities, especially in Plato's doctrine of the demiurgos, the failed creator and ruler of the Earth, who created everything material because he wanted to mimic the Most High (God). In that sense the demiurgos is the same as Satan, so the Gnostics saw it. According to some platonists and some gnostics the demiurgos was the unwanted/unloved child of Sophia, or Wisdom (read: a mythifying description of a direct result).

Sophia took pity on the creation of her son and petitioned God (the Highest One) to blow life in it by attaching souls of His creation into the bodies of flesh. Other versions say God took pity and blew life in it because they were made in His image. Medieval dualists say Satan tricked souls into his fleshly creation.

Basically this is already hell, and we can avoid everlasting reincarnation if we lead good and moral lives. That is how the platonists and the gnostics explained the sadness a good-natured human feels living in this evil world, where higher positions of power place you closer to its ruler, the prince of darkness (Jesus confirms this twice in John). And that is how they explained our inner longing to a Paradise lost.

But they stress, this life is a mere temporary thing for good souls, an eternal thing for corrupted ones. Although it is not really eternal, as (according to Plato) the demiurgos can only die when he kills himself, so he takes all creation with him. The bogomili also believed this, although they saw Satan as the firstborn Son of God who rebelled and tried to make his own creation, Christ being the second Son.

They make for a very interesting study, and were influencial on early Xtians.

>Basically this is already hell, and we can avoid everlasting reincarnation if we lead good and moral lives.

Reminds me of certain other religion which at a point had a following among greek speaking people left in asia by Alexander.

yo! americans have to pay for the copyright

Justin Martyr for example, was a platonist philosopher and noted early Christian convert. Some of his writings have survived, and are worth a read. You can find them easily on google.

Also, many elements of gnostic dualism, through bogomilism, have survived in the folklore of the Balkans even today. Macedonia and Bulgaria were always a fertile ground for heresy, but especially dualist Christianity was firmed rooted there, partly because of the forced immigration there of some heretic Paulician Armenians, which still live there today (although they have converted over time to catholicism -Banat-, orthodoxy or islam -pomaks- mainly, the catholic Banat Bulgarians still call themselves Paulikiani though).

There's a good Bosnian movie which incorporates that dualism:

youtube.com/watch?v=zc9_5WhR5S4

I can also recommend this French-Macedonian movie on the famed Secret Book of the Bogomili (one of the many works of them destroyed):

youtube.com/watch?v=AVXzbId1qxg

I can also recommend one of their books which was saved, the one I quoted from yesterday, the Book of Two Principles:

gnosis.org/library/cathar-two-principles.htm

I also would like to note that they were basically the avant garde of protestantism in a sense, the protestants used many of their arguments against the RC Church a couple of centuries later.

Also, the catholics frowned upon their (more correct) translation of the prayer Jesus gave us, Our Father, they used the term “panem nostrum supersubstantialem” and also added the phrase "for thy is the kingdom the power and the glory" with the catholics adopted afterwards, that is, after creating the Inquisition to wipe them out.

I will have a look for I don't know it, but I can tell you that catharism is not dead yet. Proof for that is this pic , when I was there there were many people laying flowers at their memorial stones, which are in every place they were in the South of France.

That single fact proves that their teachings still live on in people's hearts. This was exactly their answer to the Inquisitors, you can kill their perfected ones (their priests who led a very ascetic life as to invite their bodies for the Holy Spirit to inspire and guide them, about 1 per 1500 believers), but you can't kill the faith. This is in a beautiful sense written down in their hymn Lo Boièr (the (female) goat-herder), still popular in the region.

youtube.com/watch?v=HlGO9IRJeqg

So was Christ God, or the son of God? I don't understand this. Also, how does a "son" of god differ in creation to other beings?

Post your favourite churches. This one is close to my town.

This may be of interest too, a fictionalised debate between Saint Dominic and Guilhabert de Castres, taken from a BBC docu on gnosticism:

youtube.com/watch?v=pBvInyxo3oM

There a Canadian dominican here in fact, I believe he was here in yesterday's thread. He may well come and despise me later ;^)

Naturally, to know more about gnostic literature, there's the Nag Hammadi library.

lmao fuck bavarian scum
dumb catholic man

One God with three aspects: the Father which is the one that Moses was familiar with, the Son which is Christ, and the Holy Spirit which is sort of the vehicle that allows a person to be saved

To be quite honest, I suspect that to be muh heritage neocatharism based opn a precious few real sources and ton of falsificates. The real sect was wiped out.

everyone in this thread should kill themselves unless they are here to post something similar to this

There is no real (or very little) difference between the teachings of the cathars in Southern France, the patarenes in Italy, the piphts in Flanders, the tisserands in Northern France, the popelicani in Germany, the bogomili and dragovitsians in the Balkans, strigolniki in Russia and the paulicians in the Balkans and Armenia. These were all names given them by outsiders, exonyms, the people themselves asked to be called "christians" or "good people".

They may have been decimated by the Inquisitions and the remnants converted to islam (or to catholicism by jesuits in the 17th century), the teachings survived until the late 19th century and many elements were incorporated not only into folklore but even partly into Eastern Orthodoxy. If not for the Armenian genocide it would have been here today. Some Russian sects still are heavily based on it, like the "milkdrinkers" (molokani). The "Key of Truth" of the late Armenian paulician sect of Thonraki was actually taken from them in the late 19th century, a book passed down the centuries hand-written for over 1000 years.

For a true neo-catharism to emerge we would need to have a new class of perfected ones who are willing to lead the same austere, ascetic lives, denying meat, alcohol, sex/masturbation, tobacco or any pleasure of the flesh, not handling money, being fed and sheltered by believers and only busy with Scripture and the teachings of Christ. These would be required to give the last rites to the dying ones (to perfect them on the death bed), and to take the role of what is required of a priest of the Church of Christ.

r8 my monastery, nerds

>why u do dis tho

lads...

>Christianity
really makes you think...

u delet this right now

>Calvary
>not The Passion of the Christ
>not Pasolini's Gospel according to Matthew

are you even catholic?

Many catholics are more drawn to the worldy glory than to the actual teachings of Christ. Like a woman is attracted to shiny objects, and like man is attracted to worldly power and worldly glory.

In that sense I respect the protestants more, although I have my theological differences with them.

worldly glory/10

I rate your heresy-spreading skills much higher ;^)

>mfw a c*tholic talks to me about heresy

>heresy-spreading skills much higher

OH SHIT, I GET IT NOW :-DDD

Apparently I was wrong and manicheans survived in China until the 17th century, likely amongst Uyghur Turks.

bugger ;^)

bogomils sounded quite based tb h

Until well into the 17th century in Bosnia the former bogomili now converted to islam created again a heretical sect, called by outsiders the Poturci, or half-Turks. They never could abandon their former beliefs and tried to reconcile them with 'the mysteries of islam". They lived mostly in the Hungarian border-region, often former soldiers in the Ottoman army, and they tried to spread their now islamic heresy through Bosnia. They were most known for protecting their fellow catholic and orthodox christians against the agression of the Turks, and voluntarily paid the jizya tax out of sympathy. The Turks wiped them out quickly, but several found refuse in the mystic Sufi branch of islam, that is partly why there are so much Sufi orders in Bosnia-Herzegovina even nowadays. Alevitism/Bektashism were also influenced by them locally.

SWEDEN
YES

How do you define who is a brother in Christ and who isn't
Be specific

>not being the God's chosen people
>reading the New Testament.
Fucking casuals

They were the most true and most based Christians that ever walked this Earth. And they (well actually their paulician brothers of Armenian descent - they came to Bulgaria in the 9th century) were particularly persistent in Bulgaria, up to the late 19th century "unconverted" paulicians lived in Plovdiv.

>European Christians

I can understand dumb and poor people from Third World countries being religious, I don't actually understand people from the United States being religious, but I'm already used to it.

But why would anyone still be a Christian in Europe after decades of prosperity and centuries of secularization?

Because you confuse material pleasure with uplifting of the soul.

My Dutch friend OP could word it better yesterday, but you get the point I hope.

Here's an interesting side-note: Patripassianism is the heretical belief that the Father and Son are not two distinct persons, and thus God the Father suffered on the cross as Jesus.

It holds a lot of truth, but I can see how misrepresented it can be seen as an attack on the dogma of the trinity.

What I like about the list of heresies it that it proves how much has been thought on these matters.

r8 my cross lads, made it by myself yesterday

Or how much they didn't think enough

>I'm a self resenting syphalitic weakling who can't stop jerking off over an idealized version of man that I am too pathetic to achieve and having any ideals other than instantly gratified self interest is totally lame u guiz

Nietzsche sucks. Nihilism is entry level philosophy for teenagers.

gay adoption is legal here
plz help

>arians

>>>/4thcentury/

I like it. It's cool that you made it yourself. Potential family heirloom maybe.

thansk breh

i decided to glue on some old golden necklace on top of it :-DDD

All things that truly exist, are spiritual. The Rex Mundi can do nothing lasting.
The measure of Christ's Church is in eternity.
But the measure of the Church of Rome is in the succession of its prelates and the girth of their bellies.

Oh there's also Sabellianism, the heretical belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three characterizations of one God, rather than three distinct "persons" in one God. First formally stated by Noetus of Smyrna c.190, refined by Sabellius c.210 who applied the names merely to different roles of God in the history and economy of salvation.

As you see this is very close to patripassianism. Noetus was condemned by the presbyters of Smyrna. Tertullian wrote Adversus Praxeam against this tendency and Sabellius was condemned by Pope Callistus. Note that all this was well before the legalisation of Christianity, so in the "catacombs period" of Roman persecution.

Though irritating, they are a symptom of a global problem, and not a danger of the faith unto themselves, so long as nobody gives them any real power like those fellows who overtook Albania. Turn the other cheek in the face of the Atheist, for he is a target of pity and a sign of our failures in reaching out to the present day masses.